Re:Klonopin withdrawal (w/response)

January 7, 2011

> >> > ** Kathy, I'm going to comment up here and I'm going to delete most of> the past history below because it has now become too long. Your original> post is right below my comment here.> >> > Everything you describe screams withdrawal to me, not over sedation.> If it was over-sedation you wouldn't be feeling badly late afternoon in> the ways that you are feeling badly. You could not have a panic attack> from being too sedated. It is physiologically impossible. But, you CAN> have one from being in withdrawal.> > K: To clarify. I had the panic attack on the lower 1.5 withdrawal> dose, not at what I termed the sedated dose. It was after this episode> and how I continued to feel that day and night that I began the increase> at the late PM dose.> > I was attributing my afternoon fatigue to the pill I take in the> afternoon and my lack of sleep at night.> ,>> > While in general I would see no problem with trying twice a day, the> problem here is that you are currently exhibiting signs of withdrawal> when taking this 3x a day. What are you proposing dose-wise for 2x a> day?> > K; though it maybe more convenient to do 2x day I think this is adding> another variable that may not be the best idea right now.> > Was the original dose, before you ran into trouble, 2X a day?> > K: I was taking all 3 pills (1.5mg) at night for sleep. It was> originally 1 3x day for my neuralgia but over the years somewhere I> started taking them all at night. it was the severe headaches in the> morning that was one of the symptoms that made me first look into the> klonopin. I adjusted to 3 x day with no relief> > Kathy> > > 's response:> > > ** Kathy, if I were trying to find a baseline and one dose is too much and one dose is too little, the next logical step would be for me to try a dose in between these two. That would be 1.75mg.

K: Tried this. Again felt worse. Same as going up .5> > If that didn't work for me I would opt to take the higher dose and count on adjusting to it. But there's one thing that makes no sense. You were originally taking the full 1.5mg at bedtime and never complained of being too sedated. But now, taking less than that at bedtime and 2 other small doses during the day and you believe you are too sedated.

K: Sorry. cannot do again.. It was hell as stated in last post.Brough ton flu-like symptom. 2 doses Wed PM and Thurs AM. did not clear until Sunday> > A few possibilities come to mind.> > 1)Try two doses a day instead of 3 and see what happens.

K: Will try tomorrow> > 2) Have you been taking pills from the same prescription since this issue began or have you had to refill the bottle since the problem began? It's not unheard of for pills to not be the strength or even type they are said to be.

K: Took Rx from Walgreens for years marked as suchMylan

This summer I was away and used CVS and use pills marked as such:

Pharma .org

Took the CVS from June until Nov 18,10 when started back to Walgreens. I moved home from summer home so needed new Rx called in. Same stregth. Have bottles.

However, symptoms (severe headache and NO sleep) started in October so I don't think this is the answer.> > 3) Tell me again the very beginning of how far you got when you first attempted withdrawal on your own. Be as detailed as you possibly can. An example:

K:Approx 11/14 cut from 1.5 mgs to 1.2 mgs (?) (cut 1/2 pill) Headaches improved a little with continuous aspirin or tylenol.All other w/d symptoms really set in ...stomach, chill, crawling skin, crying. brain fog. Improved a little after a week ? and coped by concentrating as hard as I could on xmas prep

stopped Darvocet for the severe headaches that i ahd been taking for a few weeeks when and cut down Ambien to minimum I could for any sleep

I arefully adjusted dose during this time to daytime, not all at night.Was doing 5 x day

(wish I had styed here to see where I would be now)

After 3 weeks of w/d cut another 1/4 pill for 3 days (got impatient) but too severe with crawling skin, spinning, legand stomach cramps, diarrhea,

went back to 1.5 on your advice and 3x day not 5. Stayed on this for 5 days when symptoms changed again, I rememberred psychopharmacologis I had known and used over the years for various health concerens (holistic) Called him for advice in what I was doing . More on this dr at end

12/22 Went up .50 mg as advised by him and you. Felt "sedated" uanble to move out of bed, think at all, needed to go back to get thru holidays.

12/23 Back to 1.5 and was able to get thru holidays tho stil in w/d. strted Nux Vomica sent by this MD,PHD. helped

Stayed here for 5 days until had severe headache and panic attack, skin crawling increasing

12/29 Went back up .5mg(split PM and AM) Hell for 3-4 days

To answer your questions I am sure I started the symptoms in the fall after many years at same dose,

Note: In June (maybe 1 week)and July (1-2x week) I had ocassionally taken more .5 mg or .25 mg as I had a root canal and neuralgia was severe. Neuralgi improved with acupuncture and Tong Ren.This is only variable. have done this before for pain with no problems. Very careful not to increase dose and never needed more pills monthly

> "I decreased by 0.5mg for one week, then I dropped another 0.5 mg. I felt weird the next day but by the 2nd day I had xyz symptoms. I stayed at this dose and never went any lower."> > Make sure to include what you did in response to having withdrawal symptoms.> > 4) Are you absolutely sure these symptoms didn't begin until you began reducing the klonopin? Just checking...> > I know you must be pulling your hair out right now but whenever an answer is elusive it's because a detail is being overlooked.> > I haven't gone this far with a problem like this in the group since 2005 when we had only a few hundred people. It takes too much time and attention this way. Your needs are not well-served. This type of case is best served in private consultation. It is there that the clues show up. Being able to converse in real time makes this happen. There's no altering what you say and clues come out of this. If we can't find out the missing clue in the next two exchanges, I have to bow out of it in this forum and recommend that you book privately with me.> > Regards,> >Spoke with Dr Weintruab a psycopharacologist by phone conference before Xmas and visited him this Wed. he too was baffled by not reaching a dose where I was w/d free and too why these symptoms started. We never found a reason. i believe my health has improved thru Tong Ren and energy healing and my body is trying to get rid if this drug i don;t need. I am not the same person I was for years as I have gotten so much healthier with no more LYme, IBS, colitis, etc. I take no more supplements

I did lots of research before seeing him. We did discuss the valium gradual Ashton manual substitute but I react to valium negatively so he wants to consider another long acting diazepam but don't believe going there.

I do see Tom Tam occasionally but we do not work on detoxing and very careful to treat w/d symptoms only like sleep and stomach and teeth pain. I understand I do not want to go into faster w/d with energy healing.

I am ready to start titrating down 5-10% as I feel like I have felt horrid for almost 2 months trying to cut down and I am no further ahead.

Hope this is all clear. Symptoms came on unexpectanly in oct and got worse when cut down (too fast). i ahve a scientifc back ground so I am trying to keep this all straight with out adding more variables,

January 7, 2011

> >> > ** Kathy, I'm going to comment up here and I'm going to delete most of> the past history below because it has now become too long. Your original> post is right below my comment here.> >> > Everything you describe screams withdrawal to me, not over sedation.> If it was over-sedation you wouldn't be feeling badly late afternoon in> the ways that you are feeling badly. You could not have a panic attack> from being too sedated. It is physiologically impossible. But, you CAN> have one from being in withdrawal.> > K: To clarify. I had the panic attack on the lower 1.5 withdrawal> dose, not at what I termed the sedated dose. It was after this episode> and how I continued to feel that day and night that I began the increase> at the late PM dose.> > I was attributing my afternoon fatigue to the pill I take in the> afternoon and my lack of sleep at night.> ,>> > While in general I would see no problem with trying twice a day, the> problem here is that you are currently exhibiting signs of withdrawal> when taking this 3x a day. What are you proposing dose-wise for 2x a> day?> > K; though it maybe more convenient to do 2x day I think this is adding> another variable that may not be the best idea right now.> > Was the original dose, before you ran into trouble, 2X a day?> > K: I was taking all 3 pills (1.5mg) at night for sleep. It was> originally 1 3x day for my neuralgia but over the years somewhere I> started taking them all at night. it was the severe headaches in the> morning that was one of the symptoms that made me first look into the> klonopin. I adjusted to 3 x day with no relief> > Kathy> > > 's response:> > > ** Kathy, if I were trying to find a baseline and one dose is too much and one dose is too little, the next logical step would be for me to try a dose in between these two. That would be 1.75mg.

K: Tried this. Again felt worse. Same as going up .5> > If that didn't work for me I would opt to take the higher dose and count on adjusting to it. But there's one thing that makes no sense. You were originally taking the full 1.5mg at bedtime and never complained of being too sedated. But now, taking less than that at bedtime and 2 other small doses during the day and you believe you are too sedated.

K: Sorry. cannot do again.. It was hell as stated in last post.Brough ton flu-like symptom. 2 doses Wed PM and Thurs AM. did not clear until Sunday> > A few possibilities come to mind.> > 1)Try two doses a day instead of 3 and see what happens.

K: Will try tomorrow> > 2) Have you been taking pills from the same prescription since this issue began or have you had to refill the bottle since the problem began? It's not unheard of for pills to not be the strength or even type they are said to be.

K: Took Rx from Walgreens for years marked as suchMylan

This summer I was away and used CVS and use pills marked as such:

Pharma .org

Took the CVS from June until Nov 18,10 when started back to Walgreens. I moved home from summer home so needed new Rx called in. Same stregth. Have bottles.

However, symptoms (severe headache and NO sleep) started in October so I don't think this is the answer.> > 3) Tell me again the very beginning of how far you got when you first attempted withdrawal on your own. Be as detailed as you possibly can. An example:

K:Approx 11/14 cut from 1.5 mgs to 1.2 mgs (?) (cut 1/2 pill) Headaches improved a little with continuous aspirin or tylenol.All other w/d symptoms really set in ...stomach, chill, crawling skin, crying. brain fog. Improved a little after a week ? and coped by concentrating as hard as I could on xmas prep

stopped Darvocet for the severe headaches that i ahd been taking for a few weeeks when and cut down Ambien to minimum I could for any sleep

I arefully adjusted dose during this time to daytime, not all at night.Was doing 5 x day

(wish I had styed here to see where I would be now)

After 3 weeks of w/d cut another 1/4 pill for 3 days (got impatient) but too severe with crawling skin, spinning, legand stomach cramps, diarrhea,

went back to 1.5 on your advice and 3x day not 5. Stayed on this for 5 days when symptoms changed again, I rememberred psychopharmacologis I had known and used over the years for various health concerens (holistic) Called him for advice in what I was doing . More on this dr at end

12/22 Went up .50 mg as advised by him and you. Felt "sedated" uanble to move out of bed, think at all, needed to go back to get thru holidays.

12/23 Back to 1.5 and was able to get thru holidays tho stil in w/d. strted Nux Vomica sent by this MD,PHD. helped

Stayed here for 5 days until had severe headache and panic attack, skin crawling increasing

12/29 Went back up .5mg(split PM and AM) Hell for 3-4 days

To answer your questions I am sure I started the symptoms in the fall after many years at same dose,

Note: In June (maybe 1 week)and July (1-2x week) I had ocassionally taken more .5 mg or .25 mg as I had a root canal and neuralgia was severe. Neuralgi improved with acupuncture and Tong Ren.This is only variable. have done this before for pain with no problems. Very careful not to increase dose and never needed more pills monthly

> "I decreased by 0.5mg for one week, then I dropped another 0.5 mg. I felt weird the next day but by the 2nd day I had xyz symptoms. I stayed at this dose and never went any lower."> > Make sure to include what you did in response to having withdrawal symptoms.> > 4) Are you absolutely sure these symptoms didn't begin until you began reducing the klonopin? Just checking...> > I know you must be pulling your hair out right now but whenever an answer is elusive it's because a detail is being overlooked.> > I haven't gone this far with a problem like this in the group since 2005 when we had only a few hundred people. It takes too much time and attention this way. Your needs are not well-served. This type of case is best served in private consultation. It is there that the clues show up. Being able to converse in real time makes this happen. There's no altering what you say and clues come out of this. If we can't find out the missing clue in the next two exchanges, I have to bow out of it in this forum and recommend that you book privately with me.> > Regards,> >Spoke with Dr Weintruab a psycopharacologist by phone conference before Xmas and visited him this Wed. he too was baffled by not reaching a dose where I was w/d free and too why these symptoms started. We never found a reason. i believe my health has improved thru Tong Ren and energy healing and my body is trying to get rid if this drug i don;t need. I am not the same person I was for years as I have gotten so much healthier with no more LYme, IBS, colitis, etc. I take no more supplements

I did lots of research before seeing him. We did discuss the valium gradual Ashton manual substitute but I react to valium negatively so he wants to consider another long acting diazepam but don't believe going there.

I do see Tom Tam occasionally but we do not work on detoxing and very careful to treat w/d symptoms only like sleep and stomach and teeth pain. I understand I do not want to go into faster w/d with energy healing.

I am ready to start titrating down 5-10% as I feel like I have felt horrid for almost 2 months trying to cut down and I am no further ahead.

Hope this is all clear. Symptoms came on unexpectanly in oct and got worse when cut down (too fast). i ahve a scientifc back ground so I am trying to keep this all straight with out adding more variables,

January 7, 2011

I believe I've found the problem. Below, you speak of dropping Ambien and Darvocet all around the same time as you were decreasing the Klonopin. Imo, you're in withdrawal from Ambien and Darvocet and that's why you can't find a proper Klonopin dose. I knew a puzzle piece was missing. Regards,> > > >> > > ** Kathy, I'm going to comment up here and I'm going to delete most> of> > the past history below because it has now become too long. Your> original> > post is right below my comment here.> > >> > > Everything you describe screams withdrawal to me, not over sedation.> > If it was over-sedation you wouldn't be feeling badly late afternoon> in> > the ways that you are feeling badly. You could not have a panic attack> > from being too sedated. It is physiologically impossible. But, you CAN> > have one from being in withdrawal.> >> > K: To clarify. I had the panic attack on the lower 1.5 withdrawal> > dose, not at what I termed the sedated dose. It was after this episode> > and how I continued to feel that day and night that I began the> increase> > at the late PM dose.> >> > I was attributing my afternoon fatigue to the pill I take in the> > afternoon and my lack of sleep at night.> > ,>> > > While in general I would see no problem with trying twice a day, the> > problem here is that you are currently exhibiting signs of withdrawal> > when taking this 3x a day. What are you proposing dose-wise for 2x a> > day?> > > K; though it maybe more convenient to do 2x day I think this is> adding> > another variable that may not be the best idea right now.> > > Was the original dose, before you ran into trouble, 2X a day?> >> > K: I was taking all 3 pills (1.5mg) at night for sleep. It was> > originally 1 3x day for my neuralgia but over the years somewhere I> > started taking them all at night. it was the severe headaches in the> > morning that was one of the symptoms that made me first look into the> > klonopin. I adjusted to 3 x day with no relief> >> > Kathy> >> >> > 's response:> >> >> > ** Kathy, if I were trying to find a baseline and one dose is too much> and one dose is too little, the next logical step would be for me to try> a dose in between these two. That would be 1.75mg.> > K: Tried this. Again felt worse. Same as going up .5> >> > If that didn't work for me I would opt to take the higher dose and> count on adjusting to it. But there's one thing that makes no sense. You> were originally taking the full 1.5mg at bedtime and never complained of> being too sedated. But now, taking less than that at bedtime and 2 other> small doses during the day and you believe you are too sedated.> > K: Sorry. cannot do again.. It was hell as stated in last post.Brough> ton flu-like symptom. 2 doses Wed PM and Thurs AM. did not clear until> Sunday>> > A few possibilities come to mind.> >> > 1)Try two doses a day instead of 3 and see what happens.> > K: Will try tomorrow> >> > 2) Have you been taking pills from the same prescription since this> issue began or have you had to refill the bottle since the problem> began? It's not unheard of for pills to not be the strength or even type> they are said to be.> > K: Took Rx from Walgreens for years marked as suchMylan> > > > This summer I was away and used CVS and use pills marked as such:> > Pharma .org> > Took the CVS from June until Nov 18,10 when started back to Walgreens. > I moved home from summer home so needed new Rx called in. Same stregth.> Have bottles.> > However, symptoms (severe headache and NO sleep) started in October so I> don't think this is the answer> .>> > 3) Tell me again the very beginning of how far you got when you first> attempted withdrawal on your own. Be as detailed as you possibly can. An> example:> > K:Approx 11/14 cut from 1.5 mgs to 1.2 mgs (?) (cut 1/2 pill) Headaches> improved a little with continuous aspirin or tylenol.All other w/d> symptoms really set in ...stomach, chill, crawling skin, crying. brain> fog. Improved a little after a week ? and coped by concentrating as> hard as I could on xmas prep> > stopped Darvocet for the severe headaches that i ahd been taking for a> few weeeks when and cut down Ambien to minimum I could for any sleep> > I arefully adjusted dose during this time to daytime, not all at> night.Was doing 5 x day> > (wish I had styed here to see where I would be now)> > After 3 weeks of w/d cut another 1/4 pill for 3 days (got impatient)> but too severe with crawling skin, spinning, legand stomach cramps,> diarrhea,> > went back to 1.5 on your advice and 3x day not 5. Stayed on this for 5> days when symptoms changed again, I rememberred psychopharmacologis I> had known and used over the years for various health concerens> (holistic) Called him for advice in what I was doing . More on this dr> at end> > 12/22 Went up .50 mg as advised by him and you. Felt "sedated" uanble> to move out of bed, think at all, needed to go back to get thru> holidays.> > 12/23 Back to 1.5 and was able to get thru holidays tho stil in w/d. > strted Nux Vomica sent by this MD,PHD. helped> > Stayed here for 5 days until had severe headache and panic attack, skin> crawling increasing> > 12/29 Went back up .5mg(split PM and AM) Hell for 3-4 days> > To answer your questions I am sure I started the symptoms in the fall> after many years at same dose,> > Note: In June (maybe 1 week)and July (1-2x week) I had ocassionally> taken more .5 mg or .25 mg as I had a root canal and neuralgia was> severe. Neuralgi improved with acupuncture and Tong Ren.This is only> variable. have done this before for pain with no problems. Very careful> not to increase dose and never needed more pills monthly> >Spoke with Dr Weintruab a psycopharacologist by phone conference before> Xmas and visited him this Wed. he too was baffled by not reaching a> dose where I was w/d free and too why these symptoms started. We never> found a reason. i believe my health has improved thru Tong Ren and> energy healing and my body is trying to get rid if this drug i don;t> need. I am not the same person I was for years as I have gotten so much> healthier with no more LYme, IBS, colitis, etc. I take no more> supplements> > I did lots of research before seeing him. We did discuss the valium> gradual Ashton manual substitute but I react to valium negatively so he> wants to consider another long acting diazepam but don't believe going> there.> > I do see Tom Tam occasionally but we do not work on detoxing and very> careful to treat w/d symptoms only like sleep and stomach and teeth> pain. I understand I do not want to go into faster w/d with energy> healing.> > I am ready to start titrating down 5-10% as I feel like I have felt> horrid for almost 2 months trying to cut down and I am no further ahead.> > Hope this is all clear. Symptoms came on unexpectanly in oct and got> worse when cut down (too fast). i ahve a scientifc back ground so I am> trying to keep this all straight with out adding more variables,>

January 7, 2011

I believe I've found the problem. Below, you speak of dropping Ambien and Darvocet all around the same time as you were decreasing the Klonopin. Imo, you're in withdrawal from Ambien and Darvocet and that's why you can't find a proper Klonopin dose. I knew a puzzle piece was missing. Regards,> > > >> > > ** Kathy, I'm going to comment up here and I'm going to delete most> of> > the past history below because it has now become too long. Your> original> > post is right below my comment here.> > >> > > Everything you describe screams withdrawal to me, not over sedation.> > If it was over-sedation you wouldn't be feeling badly late afternoon> in> > the ways that you are feeling badly. You could not have a panic attack> > from being too sedated. It is physiologically impossible. But, you CAN> > have one from being in withdrawal.> >> > K: To clarify. I had the panic attack on the lower 1.5 withdrawal> > dose, not at what I termed the sedated dose. It was after this episode> > and how I continued to feel that day and night that I began the> increase> > at the late PM dose.> >> > I was attributing my afternoon fatigue to the pill I take in the> > afternoon and my lack of sleep at night.> > ,>> > > While in general I would see no problem with trying twice a day, the> > problem here is that you are currently exhibiting signs of withdrawal> > when taking this 3x a day. What are you proposing dose-wise for 2x a> > day?> > > K; though it maybe more convenient to do 2x day I think this is> adding> > another variable that may not be the best idea right now.> > > Was the original dose, before you ran into trouble, 2X a day?> >> > K: I was taking all 3 pills (1.5mg) at night for sleep. It was> > originally 1 3x day for my neuralgia but over the years somewhere I> > started taking them all at night. it was the severe headaches in the> > morning that was one of the symptoms that made me first look into the> > klonopin. I adjusted to 3 x day with no relief> >> > Kathy> >> >> > 's response:> >> >> > ** Kathy, if I were trying to find a baseline and one dose is too much> and one dose is too little, the next logical step would be for me to try> a dose in between these two. That would be 1.75mg.> > K: Tried this. Again felt worse. Same as going up .5> >> > If that didn't work for me I would opt to take the higher dose and> count on adjusting to it. But there's one thing that makes no sense. You> were originally taking the full 1.5mg at bedtime and never complained of> being too sedated. But now, taking less than that at bedtime and 2 other> small doses during the day and you believe you are too sedated.> > K: Sorry. cannot do again.. It was hell as stated in last post.Brough> ton flu-like symptom. 2 doses Wed PM and Thurs AM. did not clear until> Sunday>> > A few possibilities come to mind.> >> > 1)Try two doses a day instead of 3 and see what happens.> > K: Will try tomorrow> >> > 2) Have you been taking pills from the same prescription since this> issue began or have you had to refill the bottle since the problem> began? It's not unheard of for pills to not be the strength or even type> they are said to be.> > K: Took Rx from Walgreens for years marked as suchMylan> > > > This summer I was away and used CVS and use pills marked as such:> > Pharma .org> > Took the CVS from June until Nov 18,10 when started back to Walgreens. > I moved home from summer home so needed new Rx called in. Same stregth.> Have bottles.> > However, symptoms (severe headache and NO sleep) started in October so I> don't think this is the answer> .>> > 3) Tell me again the very beginning of how far you got when you first> attempted withdrawal on your own. Be as detailed as you possibly can. An> example:> > K:Approx 11/14 cut from 1.5 mgs to 1.2 mgs (?) (cut 1/2 pill) Headaches> improved a little with continuous aspirin or tylenol.All other w/d> symptoms really set in ...stomach, chill, crawling skin, crying. brain> fog. Improved a little after a week ? and coped by concentrating as> hard as I could on xmas prep> > stopped Darvocet for the severe headaches that i ahd been taking for a> few weeeks when and cut down Ambien to minimum I could for any sleep> > I arefully adjusted dose during this time to daytime, not all at> night.Was doing 5 x day> > (wish I had styed here to see where I would be now)> > After 3 weeks of w/d cut another 1/4 pill for 3 days (got impatient)> but too severe with crawling skin, spinning, legand stomach cramps,> diarrhea,> > went back to 1.5 on your advice and 3x day not 5. Stayed on this for 5> days when symptoms changed again, I rememberred psychopharmacologis I> had known and used over the years for various health concerens> (holistic) Called him for advice in what I was doing . More on this dr> at end> > 12/22 Went up .50 mg as advised by him and you. Felt "sedated" uanble> to move out of bed, think at all, needed to go back to get thru> holidays.> > 12/23 Back to 1.5 and was able to get thru holidays tho stil in w/d. > strted Nux Vomica sent by this MD,PHD. helped> > Stayed here for 5 days until had severe headache and panic attack, skin> crawling increasing> > 12/29 Went back up .5mg(split PM and AM) Hell for 3-4 days> > To answer your questions I am sure I started the symptoms in the fall> after many years at same dose,> > Note: In June (maybe 1 week)and July (1-2x week) I had ocassionally> taken more .5 mg or .25 mg as I had a root canal and neuralgia was> severe. Neuralgi improved with acupuncture and Tong Ren.This is only> variable. have done this before for pain with no problems. Very careful> not to increase dose and never needed more pills monthly> >Spoke with Dr Weintruab a psycopharacologist by phone conference before> Xmas and visited him this Wed. he too was baffled by not reaching a> dose where I was w/d free and too why these symptoms started. We never> found a reason. i believe my health has improved thru Tong Ren and> energy healing and my body is trying to get rid if this drug i don;t> need. I am not the same person I was for years as I have gotten so much> healthier with no more LYme, IBS, colitis, etc. I take no more> supplements> > I did lots of research before seeing him. We did discuss the valium> gradual Ashton manual substitute but I react to valium negatively so he> wants to consider another long acting diazepam but don't believe going> there.> > I do see Tom Tam occasionally but we do not work on detoxing and very> careful to treat w/d symptoms only like sleep and stomach and teeth> pain. I understand I do not want to go into faster w/d with energy> healing.> > I am ready to start titrating down 5-10% as I feel like I have felt> horrid for almost 2 months trying to cut down and I am no further ahead.> > Hope this is all clear. Symptoms came on unexpectanly in oct and got> worse when cut down (too fast). i ahve a scientifc back ground so I am> trying to keep this all straight with out adding more variables,>

January 8, 2011

kkilmartin@... writes:

<<K response

Maybe, it but I am still taking Ambien so I am not w/d from Ambien. I

cut it down to a minimum as I had been taking it very regularly when I

first started the insomnia from what turned out to be the klonopin w/d.

I know its not a good idea to be taking the Ambien now but I still take

as needed w/out going into all details but I have done this for years.

This spring and summer I barely took it at all due to the tong Ren and

the change of the season

The headaches were so extreme I was taking darvocet. It was taken off

the market so I was using what I had left judiciously. Again I have

gone on and off this drug for years without problems but I realized

today that I am cutting them in half .

I get flu-like symptoms with migraine type headaches for almost 40 years

every single month which lasts for about a week. I use darvocet for the

most part of that week, then stop. I never had any problems with it at

this time.

In the fall (Sept) my fibro flared up very bad and felt like I had a flu

that never went away for weeks and weeks. I always get bad at the

change of the season. Probably took some darvocet then. Felt better

for several weeks when the severe headaches and insomnia started and

increased the darvocet.

When started reading about the benzo w/d I cut these down 1) I did not

want to be on more drugs so when took them I cut them in half 2) They

were off the market and basically I was keeping them for when I get the

monthly headache flus.

So now I may be in darvocet w/d too. Taken this so sporadically at

times over the years I never thought of this. I had refills I never

filled but this summer with the flare of the facial neuralgia and the

fibro flare I took more.

I could go thru more explanations but where do I go from here with this

darvocet? My use of it has definitley been sproradic since November so

I don't know how much more w/d that drug needs to be done. yikes! What

a mess. time to do more research.

Any input on this? I was going to get my liquid titration equipment

today

Kathy>>

** 's most current response:

Kathy, you said:

" I am still taking Ambien so I am not w/d from Ambien. I

cut it down to a minimum as I had been taking it very regularly when I

first started the insomnia from what turned out to be the klonopin w/d. "

** You may still be taking it but at a lower dose, right? This can have you

in withdrawal. Yes, initially you were in Klonopin withdrawal but even when we

compensate for that, you are still in withdrawal. So it's not the Klonopin

causing this. I do believe Darvocet is part of the problem, too.

Why is it that you didn't tell me all about this before?

Regards,

Background from last few exchanges:

** Kathy, I'm going to comment up here and I'm going to delete most of the past

history below because it has now become too long. Your original post is right

below my comment here.

Everything you describe screams withdrawal to me, not over sedation. If it was

over-sedation you wouldn't be feeling badly late afternoon in the ways that you

are feeling badly. You could not have a panic attack from being too sedated. It

is physiologically impossible. But, you CAN have one from being in withdrawal.

K: To clarify. I had the panic attack on the lower 1.5 withdrawal dose, not at

what I termed the sedated dose. It was after this episode and how I continued to

feel that day and night that I began the increase at the late PM dose.

I was attributing my afternoon fatigue to the pill I take in the afternoon and

my lack of sleep at night. ,> While in general I would see no problem with

trying twice a day, the problem here is that you are currently exhibiting signs

of withdrawal when taking this 3x a day. What are you proposing dose-wise for 2x

a day? K; though it maybe more convenient to do 2x day I think this is adding

another variable that may not be the best idea right now. Was the original dose,

before you ran into trouble, 2X a day?

K: I was taking all 3 pills (1.5mg) at night for sleep. It was originally 1 3x

day for my neuralgia but over the years somewhere I started taking them all at

night. it was the severe headaches in the morning that was one of the symptoms

that made me first look into the klonopin. I adjusted to 3 x day with no relief

Kathy

's response:

** Kathy, if I were trying to find a baseline and one dose is too much and one

dose is too little, the next logical step would be for me to try a dose in

between these two. That would be 1.75mg.

K: Tried this. Again felt worse. Same as going up .5

If that didn't work for me I would opt to take the higher dose and count on

adjusting to it. But there's one thing that makes no sense. You were originally

taking the full 1.5mg at bedtime and never complained of being too sedated. But

now, taking less than that at bedtime and 2 other small doses during the day and

you believe you are too sedated.

K: Sorry. cannot do again.. It was hell as stated in last post.Brough ton

flu-like symptom. 2 doses Wed PM and Thurs AM. did not clear until Sunday> A few

possibilities come to mind.

1)Try two doses a day instead of 3 and see what happens.

K: Will try tomorrow

2) Have you been taking pills from the same prescription since this issue began

or have you had to refill the bottle since the problem began? It's not unheard

of for pills to not be the strength or even type they are said to be.

K: Took Rx from Walgreens for years marked as suchMylan

This summer I was away and used CVS and use pills marked as such:

Pharma .org

Took the CVS from June until Nov 18,10 when started back to Walgreens. I moved

home from summer home so needed new Rx called in. Same stregth. Have bottles.

However, symptoms (severe headache and NO sleep) started in October so I don't

think this is the answer .>

3) Tell me again the very beginning of how far you got when you first attempted

withdrawal on your own. Be as detailed as you possibly can. An example:

K:Approx 11/14 cut from 1.5 mgs to 1.2 mgs (?) (cut 1/2 pill) Headaches improved

a little with continuous aspirin or tylenol.All other w/d symptoms really set in

....stomach, chill, crawling skin, crying. brain fog. Improved a little after a

week ? and coped by concentrating as hard as I could on xmas prep

stopped Darvocet for the severe headaches that i ahd been taking for a few

weeeks when and cut down Ambien to minimum I could for any sleep

I arefully adjusted dose during this time to daytime, not all at night.Was doing

5 x day

(wish I had styed here to see where I would be now)

After 3 weeks of w/d cut another 1/4 pill for 3 days (got impatient) but too

severe with crawling skin, spinning, legand stomach cramps, diarrhea,

went back to 1.5 on your advice and 3x day not 5. Stayed on this for

5 days when symptoms changed again, I rememberred psychopharmacologis I had

known and used over the years for various health concerens

(holistic) Called him for advice in what I was doing . More on this dr at end

12/22 Went up .50 mg as advised by him and you. Felt " sedated " uanble to move

out of bed, think at all, needed to go back to get thru holidays.

12/23 Back to 1.5 and was able to get thru holidays tho stil in w/d. strted Nux

Vomica sent by this MD,PHD. helped

Stayed here for 5 days until had severe headache and panic attack, skin crawling

increasing

12/29 Went back up .5mg(split PM and AM) Hell for 3-4 days

To answer your questions I am sure I started the symptoms in the fall after many

years at same dose,

Note: In June (maybe 1 week)and July (1-2x week) I had ocassionally taken more

..5 mg or .25 mg as I had a root canal and neuralgia was severe. Neuralgi

improved with acupuncture and Tong Ren.This is only variable. have done this

before for pain with no problems. Very careful not to increase dose and never

needed more pills monthly

Spoke with Dr Weintruab a psycopharacologist by phone conference before Xmas and

visited him this Wed. he too was baffled by not reaching a dose where I was w/d

free and too why these symptoms started. We never found a reason. i believe my

health has improved thru Tong Ren and energy healing and my body is trying to

get rid if this drug i don;t need. I am not the same person I was for years as I

have gotten so much healthier with no more LYme, IBS, colitis, etc. I take no

more supplements

I did lots of research before seeing him. We did discuss the valium gradual

Ashton manual substitute but I react to valium negatively so he wants to

consider another long acting diazepam but don't believe going there.

I do see Tom Tam occasionally but we do not work on detoxing and very careful to

treat w/d symptoms only like sleep and stomach and teeth pain. I understand I do

not want to go into faster w/d with energy healing.

I am ready to start titrating down 5-10% as I feel like I have felt horrid for

almost 2 months trying to cut down and I am no further ahead.

Hope this is all clear. Symptoms came on unexpectanly in oct and got worse when

cut down (too fast). i ahve a scientifc back ground so I am trying to keep this

all straight with out adding more variables,

January 8, 2011