Re: liver & kidney involvement

May 31, 2002

Hello sandypaws5@...,

In reference to your comment:

ð as there is a problem with both my liver and my

ð kidneys.

What specifically is wrong with them?

How high is the elevation of the enzymes?

Protein in the urine can be caused by a # of things, ie infection, stones,

eating too much protein, 3rd spacing.

May 31, 2002

Hello sandypaws5@...,

In reference to your comment:

ð as there is a problem with both my liver and my

ð kidneys.

What specifically is wrong with them?

How high is the elevation of the enzymes?

Protein in the urine can be caused by a # of things, ie infection, stones,

eating too much protein, 3rd spacing.

May 31, 2002

Susie,

Yes, I am having regular blood work, and that's why I was worried about the

low carb diet, as there is a problem with both my liver and my kidneys.

I've gone back and forth about it... on the one hand, I have high blood

sugar which will damage my kidneys and liver, I'm sure, and on the other, I

already have problems with the kidneys and liver, which could be aggravated

by the low carb diet, but the low carb diet will bring down the blood sugar.

It's a balancing act, isn't it? My doctor has me on Hyzaar -- blood pressure

medication that also protects the kidneys. He was concerned over my last

blood test and wants me to come in for more tests.... found protein in the

urine. They already knew that my liver enzymes were elevated.

Sandy

-------------------------

>>Are you having regular blood work to have those areas checked

>>out? Those are

>>always a worry ... but I see nothing in your post to indicate you

>>are taking

>>in anything that would be damaging those organs.

>>I can't imagine how a low-carb diet could damage your liver or kidneys. If

>>anything, they should be helping them. It is a misunderstanding that high

>>protein intake damages otherwise healthy kidneys. The important

>>thing is to

>>control the diabetes, because it can cause so many other illnesses.

>>

>>Susie

May 31, 2002

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Sandy

>

> Yes, I am having regular blood work, and that's why I was

> worried about the

> low carb diet, as there is a problem with both my liver and

> my kidneys.

> I've gone back and forth about it... on the one hand, I have

> high blood

> sugar which will damage my kidneys and liver, I'm sure, and

> on the other, I

> already have problems with the kidneys and liver, which could

> be aggravated

> by the low carb diet, but the low carb diet will bring down

> the blood sugar.

> It's a balancing act, isn't it? My doctor has me on Hyzaar --

....

> protein in the

> urine. They already knew that my liver enzymes were elevated.

It is suspected (but the evidence is not really conclusive) that excess

protein intake might speed up damage to kidneys that already have problems.

But low carb eating doesn't necessarily mean that one has to consume higher

than " recommended " protein levels if one already has kidney problems. If

high protein is a problem, low carb eating can still be accomplished -- just

keep the carbs down, keep protein at the appropriate levels, and use fats to

meet your energy needs. The key is to avoid trans fats (like hydrogenated

oils found in shortening and margarine) and don't go overboard on the

saturated fats. (But note that about 1/2 of the fat in a good steak is the

" healthy " unsaturated kind.) Of course, high fiber, low digestible carb

veggies are good. And variety is good.

Fats have been pervasively demonized, but evidence supporting the

healthfulness of low fat diets is minimal to nonexistent. Obviously, we

need to watch our total energy intake to keep our weight in control, but

many of find this to be easier when there are fewer carbs to trigger excess

insulin which leads to fat storage.

IN other words, you do not have to abandon the blood sugar control available

from low carb eating in order to keep protein consumption at the levels

recommended for protection of damaged kidneys. You can have both.

Tom the Actuary

May 31, 2002

Hello sandypaws5@...,

In reference to your comment:

ð All the doctor told me was... protein in the urine -- that

ð was recent -- and elevated liver enzymes. >>How

ð high is the elevation of the enzymes? Normal is, I

ð believe 30, and mine was 130, as I recall. I'm not sure

ð of those numbers. Last time I had my enzyme levels

ð checked, they just told me they were still elevated, but

ð didn't tell me the numbers. As far as I know, they

ð haven't gone up.... I think the doctor was more

ð concerned about the protein in the urine.

This is why we as diabetics, and as humans need to become assertive,

Call your dr, ask for printout's of your lab work....

ALWAYS get a printout keep a file of them, its a good practise.

May 31, 2002

>>ð as there is a problem with both my liver and my

>>ð kidneys.

>>

>>What specifically is wrong with them?

All the doctor told me was... protein in the urine -- that was recent -- and

elevated liver enzymes.

>>How high is the elevation of the enzymes?

Normal is, I believe 30, and mine was 130, as I recall. I'm not sure of

those numbers. Last time I had my enzyme levels checked, they just told me

they were still elevated, but didn't tell me the numbers. As far as I know,

they haven't gone up.... I think the doctor was more concerned about the

protein in the urine.

>>Protein in the urine can be caused by a # of things, ie

>>infection, stones,

>>eating too much protein, 3rd spacing.

This has been going on for awhile....my doctor put me on Hyzaar on the basis

of a Creatine (spelling?) clearance a year or more ago. He said there was

already some " damage. " That's all I know....

Sandy

May 31, 2002

>>ð as there is a problem with both my liver and my

>>ð kidneys.

>>

>>What specifically is wrong with them?

All the doctor told me was... protein in the urine -- that was recent -- and

elevated liver enzymes.

>>How high is the elevation of the enzymes?

Normal is, I believe 30, and mine was 130, as I recall. I'm not sure of

those numbers. Last time I had my enzyme levels checked, they just told me

they were still elevated, but didn't tell me the numbers. As far as I know,

they haven't gone up.... I think the doctor was more concerned about the

protein in the urine.

>>Protein in the urine can be caused by a # of things, ie

>>infection, stones,

>>eating too much protein, 3rd spacing.

This has been going on for awhile....my doctor put me on Hyzaar on the basis

of a Creatine (spelling?) clearance a year or more ago. He said there was

already some " damage. " That's all I know....

Sandy

May 31, 2002

>>It is suspected (but the evidence is not really conclusive) that excess

>>protein intake might speed up damage to kidneys that already have

>>problems.

Tom,

Yes... my sister is on dialysis, waiting for a kidney transplant, and she's

been a vegetarian for several years just because of that.

>>But low carb eating doesn't necessarily mean that one has to

>>consume higher

>>than " recommended " protein levels if one already has kidney problems. If

>>high protein is a problem, low carb eating can still be

>>accomplished -- just

>>keep the carbs down, keep protein at the appropriate levels, and

>>use fats to

>>meet your energy needs. >>

That's what I hope to do....

Sandy

May 31, 2002

I'm pretty assertive when I want to be. In fact, my doctor and nurses

probably think too much so :-)

Sandy

---------------

>>This is why we as diabetics, and as humans need to become assertive,

May 31, 2002

I'm pretty assertive when I want to be. In fact, my doctor and nurses

probably think too much so :-)

Sandy

---------------

>>This is why we as diabetics, and as humans need to become assertive,

June 1, 2002

Hi, Sandy!

> I'm pretty assertive when I want to be. In fact, my doctor and nurses

> probably think too much so :-)

I'd say that's their problem, since it's *your* body and you're

presumably paying co-pays, insurance premiums, whatever. They don't have

to live with the consequences of mistakes in your treatment, you do.

ette

June 1, 2002

Sandy wrote:

<< I am having regular blood work, and ... there is a problem with both my

liver and my kidneys ... which could be aggravated

by the low carb diet, but the low carb diet will bring down the blood sugar.

It's a balancing act, isn't it? >>

It certainly is. Do you get copies of your bloodwork? If your liver enzymes

are elevated only a tad, it may not be so worrisome, but we certainly don't

want to sacrifice one body organ to protect another. Always this balancing

act, just as you say. But clearly, elevated glucose levels can harm the

kidneys, and our kidneys are really essential - the filter for our bodies.

Anything you can manage in the way of diet, exercise and weight loss should

prove beneficial. Dr. Bernstein and others haven't found proof that high

protein intake harms otherwise normal kidneys, but the results of high

protein intake on damaged kidneys are mixed. Many times type 2's display

elevated liver enzymes because our pancreas and our liver work like a tag

team, the one pulling our glucose levels down and the other trying to push

them up. That's sort of how Glucophage works - ties up the liver so it can't

keep cranking out glucagon.

Susie

June 1, 2002

Do you get copies of your bloodwork? If your

>>liver enzymes

>>are elevated only a tad, it may not be so worrisome,

Susie,

When I went to the liver specialist, I did ask for copies of the bloodwork,

but I never have from my general practitioner. If I were right in the

doctor's office when we were going over the tests, I'd probably think to ask

for the results, but as it is, I was talking to the nurse on the phone and

trying to scribble down the results. That's probably a good idea to ask

them to send me a copy of my latest tests. I know that the levels could be

worse, but when normal is 30, and mine are 130, I think that's too high. I

didn't ask exactly what they were, but what the nurse said to me was....

" Your liver enzymes are still elevated. " She indicated that the doctor was

concerned and wanted to take more tests.

Sandy

June 1, 2002

One thing that my doctor did suggest about the liver was that it was

possible that I have " fatty liver. " He said that sometimes causes the

enzymes to be elevated. I hope he's right. This is one reason I've been

trying to lose weight....the other is that I know just losing weight can

help normalize the blood sugar. Right now, I've lost about 14 lbs.

Sandy

-----------------

Many times type 2's display

>>elevated liver enzymes because our pancreas and our liver work like a tag

>>team, the one pulling our glucose levels down and the other trying to push

>>them up. That's sort of how Glucophage works - ties up the liver

>>so it can't

>>keep cranking out glucagon.

June 1, 2002

ette,

My thoughts exactly :-)

Sandy

--------------------

>>I'd say that's their problem, since it's *your* body and you're

>>presumably paying co-pays, insurance premiums, whatever. They don't have

>>to live with the consequences of mistakes in your treatment, you do.

June 1, 2002

Also check the meds you have been on. They are finding that alot of them

affected your liver. You may be able to sue.

I know Rezulin and maybe actos and avandia, but I am not sure about them.

Phyllis N

>

>Reply-To: diabetes_int

>To: <diabetes_int >

>Subject: RE: liver & kidney involvement

>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 15:57:08 -0500

>

>One thing that my doctor did suggest about the liver was that it was

>possible that I have " fatty liver. " He said that sometimes causes the

>enzymes to be elevated. I hope he's right. This is one reason I've been

>trying to lose weight....the other is that I know just losing weight can

>help normalize the blood sugar. Right now, I've lost about 14 lbs.

>

>Sandy

>-----------------

>

>Many times type 2's display

> >>elevated liver enzymes because our pancreas and our liver work like a

>tag

> >>team, the one pulling our glucose levels down and the other trying to

>push

> >>them up. That's sort of how Glucophage works - ties up the liver

> >>so it can't

> >>keep cranking out glucagon.

>

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June 2, 2002

Hi Sandy,

The year before by DM dx, my liver enzymes were high. My Dr had me come in

for bloodwork to recheck the next month-liver enzymes were higher. Then I

had an ultrasound that confirmed " fatty liver " . After I lost a few pounds,

the bloodwork improved, but still remained above normal. Good news: After

losing a bunch of weight, my liver enzymes returned to normal ranges and have

stayed there.

Carol T

In a message dated 6/1/02 1:47:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

sandypaws5@... writes:

>>One thing that my doctor did suggest about the liver was that it was

possible that I have " fatty liver. " He said that sometimes causes the

enzymes to be elevated. I hope he's right. This is one reason I've been

trying to lose weight....the other is that I know just losing weight can

help normalize the blood sugar. Right now, I've lost about 14 lbs.

June 2, 2002

Yes, I'd read about that -- apparently, Rezulin worked very well, but some

people actually died from taking it. That's awful! I've mostly been on

Glucophage & Amaryl. I can't get a definitive answer as to whether or not

they caused my liver problems. One doctor -- the endo -- said glucophage

could cause a problem, but not Amaryl. The liver specialist said Amaryl is

the problem, not Glucophage. The GP says neither one caused my problems and

put me on a very small dose of Glucovance -- a combination of the two. I'm

not taking anything now... I took myself off of the Glucovance because it

gave me headaches, and I read all the contraindications. I'm trying to make

up for it by walking a lot... I walk an hour in the morning and half an hour

in the evening with my husband. I've lost 14 lbs., mainly as a result of

the walking, so I'm hoping that will help too.

Sandy

----------------

>>Also check the meds you have been on. They are finding that alot of them

>>affected your liver. You may be able to sue.

>>I know Rezulin and maybe actos and avandia, but I am not sure about them.

June 2, 2002

Just more proof that none of them know what they are doing. It is not their

fault. The drug companies have caused most of this. REally I don't think

anyone knows the real truth behind diabetes, type 2. I think they will know

in about 10 years. They all just concentrate on bringing your blood sugar

levels down because they see so many people come into the ER with 400 and

500 and higher and the damage it does. I am concerned that they want now to

put people on meds whose blood sugars are like 120 and 130. All the

research comes from the drug companies to push drugs, but what about the

side effects? Do the side effects kill you faster than having blood sugars

of say 130 or 140?

I used to be really against suing but now I believe that is the only change

occurs. I was really upset to find out that a drug company only has to

present 2 successful drug studies to get a drug approved. So some drugs have

3 bad studies and 2 good ones and are still approved.

When I was at Duke they had a policy that they owned the data and it would

be given to the public, good or bad. That policy cost them alot of business,

but I can certainly understand it now. They pulled several drug studies,

because they killed people.

Phyllis N

>>

>Yes, I'd read about that -- apparently, Rezulin worked very well, but some

>people actually died from taking it. That's awful! I've mostly been on

>Glucophage & Amaryl. I can't get a definitive answer as to whether or not

>they caused my liver problems. One doctor -- the endo -- said glucophage

>could cause a problem, but not Amaryl. The liver specialist said Amaryl is

>the problem, not Glucophage. The GP says neither one caused my problems

>and

>put me on a very small dose of Glucovance -- a combination of the two. I'm

>not taking anything now... I took myself off of the Glucovance because it

>gave me headaches, and I read all the contraindications. I'm trying to

>make

>up for it by walking a lot... I walk an hour in the morning and half an

>hour

>in the evening with my husband. I've lost 14 lbs., mainly as a result of

>the walking, so I'm hoping that will help too.

>

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June 2, 2002