Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

[Guest guest]

there is much evidence that alcohol has been consumed for literally thousands of

years - not sure how that one made the list. here is a good, well documented

history of alcohol

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1114796842.html

and there is not ONE paleo diet - human beings don't have big teeth or run fast

- they learned to eat what was available

Debra Boardley

University of Toledo

[Guest guest]

there is much evidence that alcohol has been consumed for literally thousands of

years - not sure how that one made the list. here is a good, well documented

history of alcohol

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1114796842.html

and there is not ONE paleo diet - human beings don't have big teeth or run fast

- they learned to eat what was available

Debra Boardley

University of Toledo

[Guest guest]

So Robb Wolf has " put the thought out there " that there will be class action

lawsuits against endos and cardiologists and RDs who teach the USDA standard

diet recommendations despite all the real science that negates the USDA diet

composition.

Interesting. We have just been threatened AND put in a " damned if we do, damned

if we don't " position, according to Robb Wolf, who would likely be better off

without RD's in his world. If we don't follow standard recommendations we are

liable, and if we do he would like us to be liable. However, as is usual for

attention-seekers who resort to threats, he takes a lot of license with language

in his " argument " :

He states it is criminal to teach DM patients to eat refined bread with fiber

added back in up to 65% of total kcals. Who teaches DM patients to eat refined

bread, and who recommends up to 65% carbs anymore?

I don't think anyone on this list " accepts the status quo without understanding

the real research " , but what is he defining " real research " ? That is the

question for any court he encourages the public to take us to (I notice he

didn't say he would take it to court while he " stirs up the people " ). " Folks

should sue health professionals " . He sounds like such a friend to the " folks " .

" Summary

The adoption of diet and lifestyle that are very different from what shaped the

human genome for more than 2 million years is a major factor in the widespread

prevalence of chronic degenerative diseases that are epidemic in western

countries. "

Given that it is highly debatable that there was even life on this planet 2

million years ago, or that we know what diet would have supported that life, I

don't think even Mr. Wolf believes this basis of " fact " would stand up in court.

And , I really do respect where you are coming from when you say, " I am an

older RD. I am reading everything I can and keeping an open mind. At this point

in my career, I am much more likely to give my kids, and to recommend to my

patients paleo friendly foods: red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish oil,

eggs, then unlimited fruits, processed carbs, fat free dressing, and smart

balance margarine. I think it is good to read and learn about the " other side "

of the research, even if the knowledge pursuit solidifies your trust in the USDA

guidelines. " But why must we call red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish

oil, and eggs (your list) paleo friendly foods? Don't RD's recommend all these

foods? And who is recommending unlimited fruits, processed carbs, and fat free

dressing? It sounds to me like Mr. Wolf is setting up his " argument " against

supposedly standard recommendations that are not even valid. Please do not

misunderstand, I appreciate your keeping an open mind and supporting the healthy

foods in the argument. It is Mr. Wolf and the argument he " sets up " that is

frustrating.

Respectfully,

Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

www.newlifeforhealth.com

e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

http://www.linkedin.com/in/newlifedianepreves

http://www.facebook.com/people/Diane-Preves/1357243185

http://twitter.com/DianePreves

Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

I haven´t read this book but I am curious about his " amazing "

theories.

What he considers anti-nutrients? Food compounds that interfere with

nutrient absorption in the gut? Because iron can be an anti-nutrient for

calcium for example. Zinc also can decrease calcium absorption, oxalates

interfere with the absorption of plenty of nutrients.Or just food

compounds that can trigger an immune response?

According to the references that I have Palaeolithic humans didn't have

any ingestion of fat of 60%. In the latest references that I read (and

others show similar numbers) this was the nutrient distribution in the

palaeolithic diet:

- Protein 34%

- Fat- 21%

- Carbohydrate- 21%

- P: S ratio 1.4

- Fibre (g/day)- 46g

- Calcium (mg/day)- 1580

- Vitamin C (mg/day): 400

- Sodium (mg/day): 690

" Palaeolithic man was long considered to have been primarily a hunter

therefore to have obtained a high proportion of his diet from meat. This

may have been true until the period shortly before the dawn of

agriculture about 10.000 BC when overhunting, climate changes and

population growth brought about a shift to subsistence activities with

way of life not unlike that of few modern hunter-gathers who remain

relative untouched. The dietary intake of some of these societies has

been studied in recent years and in general tend to derive between 50

and 80% by weight from plants "

in A colour atlas and text of diet- related disorders.

In one recent nutrigenomics conference that I went it was discussed that

the " protective " effect of certain type of traditional diet like

Mediterranean, Japanese or the one that Eskimos do probably are only

protective for those populations because of different genetic

expressions (mind that the genetic expression is something different

from the gene pool). Eskimos and similar population living in the far

north diets are very different, 10% or less of their food comes from

vegetable in origin.

Fructose is only harmfull (and I read a lot on this when I was reviewing

the dietary recommendations for hyperuricemia) when ingested in large

amounts as added sugar which it seams a lot of food there in US have it.

Also fructose absorption in fruits depends on the fructose/glucose

ratio. Does he explain how fructose acts like a neurotoxin? From what I

know only glucose can cross blood/brain barrier.

Cátia Borges, nutricionista

ACES Alto-Tâmega e Barroso

Centro de Saúde Chaves 1

>

>

> Looking for RD prospective regarding the hypothesis that all humans,

not just those with an allergy or intolerance to gluten, should avoid

gluten due to the presence of " anti nutrients " such as

> lectins, phytates, prolamines and saponins.Yes, I am reading Robb

Wolf's Paleo Solution. And those of you who read the book, know he hates

RDs, because " RDs don't challenge conventional diet principles " , that he

believes are not evidence based. The book states that humans can

" tolerate " these anti nutrients and plug along, but that we really have

not evolved to live on a 60% grain based diet, and that high nutrient

density foods (meat, veggies, sat/0-3 fats) should contribute the

majority of our kcals.

> The Paleo folks (yes I just joined a CrossFit gym) believe there are

anti nutrients in dairy and legumes as well. The Paleo Diet (unprocessed

foods, high nutrient density foods, high Omega 3 fat/sat fat) looks like

this:

> About 30% protein - from grass feed animals

> About 60% fats- from meats, coconuts, avocados, olives, fish and fish

oils

> About 10% carbs from veggies. Higher carbs, add more and fruit when

working out more.

> Small amounts of nuts and seeds are OK, but their fat profile (higher

in O-6) keeps them on the limit list.

> Low fructose fruits are ok, like berries, but fructose is also

believed to be a neurotoxin, and a " food crack " for the average human.

> The worst possible diet, according to this camp is a high grain, high

fructose, high Omega 6 diet, with corn oil, gluten and fructose being

the major bad guys, and protein, saturated fats, O-3s and root/bulb

veggies being the good guys.

>

> I am searching NIH and PubMed and not finding much at all discussing

the dangers of these anti nutrients in the human food supply. I see some

info about anti nutrients in soy, and data about gluten toxicity in

Celiac dx, but not the general population.

> The Paleo Internet sites are full of information stating that most

diseases (obesity, general fatigue, allergies, GI in tolerances, DM,

etc) would disappear if grains, dairy and legumes are eliminated.

>

> Is anyone else reading this book?

> I would love to discuss all this conflicting information.

>

> Osowski MS, RD, LD

> Registered Dietitian

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Diane-

I am a fan of yours. I know you are an independent thinker who looks at

conventional diet paradigms, then you review the research and you formulate your

professional positions without pushing an agenda. I don't endorse one particular

diet, especially not the USDA guidelines. I am sure there are very smart

researchers and scientists and RDs who developed these guidelines. I also think

there is some solid research in the ADA evidence library. But I know there is a

lot of nutrition research that is contrary to the USDA and the ADA dogma. I

think it is wise to stay aware of these fringe hypotheses and non traditional

views. Dont you agree, a good RD knows the USDA guidelines (the 120+ page doc on

our hard drive) and also has an opinion on the China Study, the Paleo diet,

Atkin's diet, buying organic, grass feed animal products etc.

I work with different populations; long term care, and overweight adults, plus I

have two kids and a stressful, although enjoyable lifestyle. I find that the

USDA diet guidelines fail most of my patients, and I am constantly searching the

research to help me help these folks reach their health goals using evidence

based research.

Scenarios I see:

DM patients w an A1C > 7.

Standard tx - add more insulin without regard to carbohydrate restriction, or

carbohydrate quality education

Patient w total chol > 200

Standard tx - add Lipitor without looking at HDL and oxidized LDL fraction or

carb/pro/fat diet composition

Patient has unhealthy body comp w >25% body fat

Standard tx - Reduce kcals, focus on complex carbs, low fat, lean proteins

Elderly patient with wt loss

Standard tx - add high fructose corn syrup supplements, add sugar to foods,

encourage dbl desserts

In all cases, a real food, low processed food, higher O-3 fat, lower total carb

diet primarily from veggies and ancient grains, w approx 30% protein is a better

starting point. Note, this is not in 100% agreement w the Paleo philosophy. I

find that eating this way, call it what you want, leads to better blood sugar,

better blood lipids, better body comp and most importantly better satiety and

compliance. I see the USDA guidelines as a starting point, but not the ending

point for optimal health.

Osowski MS, RD, LD

Registered Dietitian

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 7, 2011, at 8:09 PM, " Diane Preves M.S., R.D. "

wrote:

>

> So Robb Wolf has " put the thought out there " that there will be class action

lawsuits against endos and cardiologists and RDs who teach the USDA standard

diet recommendations despite all the real science that negates the USDA diet

composition.

>

> Interesting. We have just been threatened AND put in a " damned if we do,

damned if we don't " position, according to Robb Wolf, who would likely be better

off without RD's in his world. If we don't follow standard recommendations we

are liable, and if we do he would like us to be liable. However, as is usual for

attention-seekers who resort to threats, he takes a lot of license with language

in his " argument " :

>

> He states it is criminal to teach DM patients to eat refined bread with fiber

added back in up to 65% of total kcals. Who teaches DM patients to eat refined

bread, and who recommends up to 65% carbs anymore?

>

> I don't think anyone on this list " accepts the status quo without

understanding the real research " , but what is he defining " real research " ? That

is the question for any court he encourages the public to take us to (I notice

he didn't say he would take it to court while he " stirs up the people " ). " Folks

should sue health professionals " . He sounds like such a friend to the " folks " .

>

> " Summary

> The adoption of diet and lifestyle that are very different from what shaped

the human genome for more than 2 million years is a major factor in the

widespread prevalence of chronic degenerative diseases that are epidemic in

western countries. "

>

> Given that it is highly debatable that there was even life on this planet 2

million years ago, or that we know what diet would have supported that life, I

don't think even Mr. Wolf believes this basis of " fact " would stand up in court.

>

> And , I really do respect where you are coming from when you say, " I am an

older RD. I am reading everything I can and keeping an open mind. At this point

in my career, I am much more likely to give my kids, and to recommend to my

patients paleo friendly foods: red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish oil,

eggs, then unlimited fruits, processed carbs, fat free dressing, and smart

balance margarine. I think it is good to read and learn about the " other side "

of the research, even if the knowledge pursuit solidifies your trust in the USDA

guidelines. " But why must we call red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish

oil, and eggs (your list) paleo friendly foods? Don't RD's recommend all these

foods? And who is recommending unlimited fruits, processed carbs, and fat free

dressing? It sounds to me like Mr. Wolf is setting up his " argument " against

supposedly standard recommendations that are not even valid. Please do not

misunderstand, I appreciate your keeping an open mind and supporting the healthy

foods in the argument. It is Mr. Wolf and the argument he " sets up " that is

frustrating.

>

> Respectfully,

> Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

> N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

> www.newlifeforhealth.com

> e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

>

>

>

> http://www.linkedin.com/in/newlifedianepreves

> http://www.facebook.com/people/Diane-Preves/1357243185

> http://twitter.com/DianePreves

>

> Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

> I haven´t read this book but I am curious about his " amazing "

> theories.

> What he considers anti-nutrients? Food compounds that interfere with

> nutrient absorption in the gut? Because iron can be an anti-nutrient for

> calcium for example. Zinc also can decrease calcium absorption, oxalates

> interfere with the absorption of plenty of nutrients.Or just food

> compounds that can trigger an immune response?

> According to the references that I have Palaeolithic humans didn't have

> any ingestion of fat of 60%. In the latest references that I read (and

> others show similar numbers) this was the nutrient distribution in the

> palaeolithic diet:

>

> - Protein 34%

> - Fat- 21%

> - Carbohydrate- 21%

> - P: S ratio 1.4

> - Fibre (g/day)- 46g

> - Calcium (mg/day)- 1580

> - Vitamin C (mg/day): 400

> - Sodium (mg/day): 690

>

> " Palaeolithic man was long considered to have been primarily a hunter

> therefore to have obtained a high proportion of his diet from meat. This

> may have been true until the period shortly before the dawn of

> agriculture about 10.000 BC when overhunting, climate changes and

> population growth brought about a shift to subsistence activities with

> way of life not unlike that of few modern hunter-gathers who remain

> relative untouched. The dietary intake of some of these societies has

> been studied in recent years and in general tend to derive between 50

> and 80% by weight from plants "

> in A colour atlas and text of diet- related disorders.

>

> In one recent nutrigenomics conference that I went it was discussed that

> the " protective " effect of certain type of traditional diet like

> Mediterranean, Japanese or the one that Eskimos do probably are only

> protective for those populations because of different genetic

> expressions (mind that the genetic expression is something different

> from the gene pool). Eskimos and similar population living in the far

> north diets are very different, 10% or less of their food comes from

> vegetable in origin.

>

> Fructose is only harmfull (and I read a lot on this when I was reviewing

> the dietary recommendations for hyperuricemia) when ingested in large

> amounts as added sugar which it seams a lot of food there in US have it.

> Also fructose absorption in fruits depends on the fructose/glucose

> ratio. Does he explain how fructose acts like a neurotoxin? From what I

> know only glucose can cross blood/brain barrier.

>

> Cátia Borges, nutricionista

> ACES Alto-Tâmega e Barroso

> Centro de Saúde Chaves 1

>

>

> >

> >

> > Looking for RD prospective regarding the hypothesis that all humans,

> not just those with an allergy or intolerance to gluten, should avoid

> gluten due to the presence of " anti nutrients " such as

> > lectins, phytates, prolamines and saponins.Yes, I am reading Robb

> Wolf's Paleo Solution. And those of you who read the book, know he hates

> RDs, because " RDs don't challenge conventional diet principles " , that he

> believes are not evidence based. The book states that humans can

> " tolerate " these anti nutrients and plug along, but that we really have

> not evolved to live on a 60% grain based diet, and that high nutrient

> density foods (meat, veggies, sat/0-3 fats) should contribute the

> majority of our kcals.

> > The Paleo folks (yes I just joined a CrossFit gym) believe there are

> anti nutrients in dairy and legumes as well. The Paleo Diet (unprocessed

> foods, high nutrient density foods, high Omega 3 fat/sat fat) looks like

> this:

> > About 30% protein - from grass feed animals

> > About 60% fats- from meats, coconuts, avocados, olives, fish and fish

> oils

> > About 10% carbs from veggies. Higher carbs, add more and fruit when

> working out more.

> > Small amounts of nuts and seeds are OK, but their fat profile (higher

> in O-6) keeps them on the limit list.

> > Low fructose fruits are ok, like berries, but fructose is also

> believed to be a neurotoxin, and a " food crack " for the average human.

> > The worst possible diet, according to this camp is a high grain, high

> fructose, high Omega 6 diet, with corn oil, gluten and fructose being

> the major bad guys, and protein, saturated fats, O-3s and root/bulb

> veggies being the good guys.

> >

> > I am searching NIH and PubMed and not finding much at all discussing

> the dangers of these anti nutrients in the human food supply. I see some

> info about anti nutrients in soy, and data about gluten toxicity in

> Celiac dx, but not the general population.

> > The Paleo Internet sites are full of information stating that most

> diseases (obesity, general fatigue, allergies, GI in tolerances, DM,

> etc) would disappear if grains, dairy and legumes are eliminated.

> >

> > Is anyone else reading this book?

> > I would love to discuss all this conflicting information.

> >

> > Osowski MS, RD, LD

> > Registered Dietitian

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Diane-

I am a fan of yours. I know you are an independent thinker who looks at

conventional diet paradigms, then you review the research and you formulate your

professional positions without pushing an agenda. I don't endorse one particular

diet, especially not the USDA guidelines. I am sure there are very smart

researchers and scientists and RDs who developed these guidelines. I also think

there is some solid research in the ADA evidence library. But I know there is a

lot of nutrition research that is contrary to the USDA and the ADA dogma. I

think it is wise to stay aware of these fringe hypotheses and non traditional

views. Dont you agree, a good RD knows the USDA guidelines (the 120+ page doc on

our hard drive) and also has an opinion on the China Study, the Paleo diet,

Atkin's diet, buying organic, grass feed animal products etc.

I work with different populations; long term care, and overweight adults, plus I

have two kids and a stressful, although enjoyable lifestyle. I find that the

USDA diet guidelines fail most of my patients, and I am constantly searching the

research to help me help these folks reach their health goals using evidence

based research.

Scenarios I see:

DM patients w an A1C > 7.

Standard tx - add more insulin without regard to carbohydrate restriction, or

carbohydrate quality education

Patient w total chol > 200

Standard tx - add Lipitor without looking at HDL and oxidized LDL fraction or

carb/pro/fat diet composition

Patient has unhealthy body comp w >25% body fat

Standard tx - Reduce kcals, focus on complex carbs, low fat, lean proteins

Elderly patient with wt loss

Standard tx - add high fructose corn syrup supplements, add sugar to foods,

encourage dbl desserts

In all cases, a real food, low processed food, higher O-3 fat, lower total carb

diet primarily from veggies and ancient grains, w approx 30% protein is a better

starting point. Note, this is not in 100% agreement w the Paleo philosophy. I

find that eating this way, call it what you want, leads to better blood sugar,

better blood lipids, better body comp and most importantly better satiety and

compliance. I see the USDA guidelines as a starting point, but not the ending

point for optimal health.

Osowski MS, RD, LD

Registered Dietitian

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 7, 2011, at 8:09 PM, " Diane Preves M.S., R.D. "

wrote:

>

> So Robb Wolf has " put the thought out there " that there will be class action

lawsuits against endos and cardiologists and RDs who teach the USDA standard

diet recommendations despite all the real science that negates the USDA diet

composition.

>

> Interesting. We have just been threatened AND put in a " damned if we do,

damned if we don't " position, according to Robb Wolf, who would likely be better

off without RD's in his world. If we don't follow standard recommendations we

are liable, and if we do he would like us to be liable. However, as is usual for

attention-seekers who resort to threats, he takes a lot of license with language

in his " argument " :

>

> He states it is criminal to teach DM patients to eat refined bread with fiber

added back in up to 65% of total kcals. Who teaches DM patients to eat refined

bread, and who recommends up to 65% carbs anymore?

>

> I don't think anyone on this list " accepts the status quo without

understanding the real research " , but what is he defining " real research " ? That

is the question for any court he encourages the public to take us to (I notice

he didn't say he would take it to court while he " stirs up the people " ). " Folks

should sue health professionals " . He sounds like such a friend to the " folks " .

>

> " Summary

> The adoption of diet and lifestyle that are very different from what shaped

the human genome for more than 2 million years is a major factor in the

widespread prevalence of chronic degenerative diseases that are epidemic in

western countries. "

>

> Given that it is highly debatable that there was even life on this planet 2

million years ago, or that we know what diet would have supported that life, I

don't think even Mr. Wolf believes this basis of " fact " would stand up in court.

>

> And , I really do respect where you are coming from when you say, " I am an

older RD. I am reading everything I can and keeping an open mind. At this point

in my career, I am much more likely to give my kids, and to recommend to my

patients paleo friendly foods: red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish oil,

eggs, then unlimited fruits, processed carbs, fat free dressing, and smart

balance margarine. I think it is good to read and learn about the " other side "

of the research, even if the knowledge pursuit solidifies your trust in the USDA

guidelines. " But why must we call red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish

oil, and eggs (your list) paleo friendly foods? Don't RD's recommend all these

foods? And who is recommending unlimited fruits, processed carbs, and fat free

dressing? It sounds to me like Mr. Wolf is setting up his " argument " against

supposedly standard recommendations that are not even valid. Please do not

misunderstand, I appreciate your keeping an open mind and supporting the healthy

foods in the argument. It is Mr. Wolf and the argument he " sets up " that is

frustrating.

>

> Respectfully,

> Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

> N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

> www.newlifeforhealth.com

> e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

>

>

>

> http://www.linkedin.com/in/newlifedianepreves

> http://www.facebook.com/people/Diane-Preves/1357243185

> http://twitter.com/DianePreves

>

> Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

> I haven´t read this book but I am curious about his " amazing "

> theories.

> What he considers anti-nutrients? Food compounds that interfere with

> nutrient absorption in the gut? Because iron can be an anti-nutrient for

> calcium for example. Zinc also can decrease calcium absorption, oxalates

> interfere with the absorption of plenty of nutrients.Or just food

> compounds that can trigger an immune response?

> According to the references that I have Palaeolithic humans didn't have

> any ingestion of fat of 60%. In the latest references that I read (and

> others show similar numbers) this was the nutrient distribution in the

> palaeolithic diet:

>

> - Protein 34%

> - Fat- 21%

> - Carbohydrate- 21%

> - P: S ratio 1.4

> - Fibre (g/day)- 46g

> - Calcium (mg/day)- 1580

> - Vitamin C (mg/day): 400

> - Sodium (mg/day): 690

>

> " Palaeolithic man was long considered to have been primarily a hunter

> therefore to have obtained a high proportion of his diet from meat. This

> may have been true until the period shortly before the dawn of

> agriculture about 10.000 BC when overhunting, climate changes and

> population growth brought about a shift to subsistence activities with

> way of life not unlike that of few modern hunter-gathers who remain

> relative untouched. The dietary intake of some of these societies has

> been studied in recent years and in general tend to derive between 50

> and 80% by weight from plants "

> in A colour atlas and text of diet- related disorders.

>

> In one recent nutrigenomics conference that I went it was discussed that

> the " protective " effect of certain type of traditional diet like

> Mediterranean, Japanese or the one that Eskimos do probably are only

> protective for those populations because of different genetic

> expressions (mind that the genetic expression is something different

> from the gene pool). Eskimos and similar population living in the far

> north diets are very different, 10% or less of their food comes from

> vegetable in origin.

>

> Fructose is only harmfull (and I read a lot on this when I was reviewing

> the dietary recommendations for hyperuricemia) when ingested in large

> amounts as added sugar which it seams a lot of food there in US have it.

> Also fructose absorption in fruits depends on the fructose/glucose

> ratio. Does he explain how fructose acts like a neurotoxin? From what I

> know only glucose can cross blood/brain barrier.

>

> Cátia Borges, nutricionista

> ACES Alto-Tâmega e Barroso

> Centro de Saúde Chaves 1

>

>

> >

> >

> > Looking for RD prospective regarding the hypothesis that all humans,

> not just those with an allergy or intolerance to gluten, should avoid

> gluten due to the presence of " anti nutrients " such as

> > lectins, phytates, prolamines and saponins.Yes, I am reading Robb

> Wolf's Paleo Solution. And those of you who read the book, know he hates

> RDs, because " RDs don't challenge conventional diet principles " , that he

> believes are not evidence based. The book states that humans can

> " tolerate " these anti nutrients and plug along, but that we really have

> not evolved to live on a 60% grain based diet, and that high nutrient

> density foods (meat, veggies, sat/0-3 fats) should contribute the

> majority of our kcals.

> > The Paleo folks (yes I just joined a CrossFit gym) believe there are

> anti nutrients in dairy and legumes as well. The Paleo Diet (unprocessed

> foods, high nutrient density foods, high Omega 3 fat/sat fat) looks like

> this:

> > About 30% protein - from grass feed animals

> > About 60% fats- from meats, coconuts, avocados, olives, fish and fish

> oils

> > About 10% carbs from veggies. Higher carbs, add more and fruit when

> working out more.

> > Small amounts of nuts and seeds are OK, but their fat profile (higher

> in O-6) keeps them on the limit list.

> > Low fructose fruits are ok, like berries, but fructose is also

> believed to be a neurotoxin, and a " food crack " for the average human.

> > The worst possible diet, according to this camp is a high grain, high

> fructose, high Omega 6 diet, with corn oil, gluten and fructose being

> the major bad guys, and protein, saturated fats, O-3s and root/bulb

> veggies being the good guys.

> >

> > I am searching NIH and PubMed and not finding much at all discussing

> the dangers of these anti nutrients in the human food supply. I see some

> info about anti nutrients in soy, and data about gluten toxicity in

> Celiac dx, but not the general population.

> > The Paleo Internet sites are full of information stating that most

> diseases (obesity, general fatigue, allergies, GI in tolerances, DM,

> etc) would disappear if grains, dairy and legumes are eliminated.

> >

> > Is anyone else reading this book?

> > I would love to discuss all this conflicting information.

> >

> > Osowski MS, RD, LD

> > Registered Dietitian

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you --I too have appreciated everything you have contributed to this

list.

I believe 30% protein to be too high and have seen across-the-board improvement

with Dr. Gerald Reaven's reco for " Syndrome X " diet (metabolic syndrome,

pre-diabetes, hyperinsulinemia, whatever you want to call it!) at 45% CH0:15 %

Pro: 40% Fat (predominantly plant & fish fat). How does one get 30% protein

without eating an excess of animal protein?

Is the std diabetic recommendation really to treat without regard to

carbohydrate quality education?

While I understand the std treatment for chol to be Lipitor from physician,

surely RD's do educate/adjust composition of diet with focus on HDL,

triglycerides and oxidized LDL fraction? In the NCEP ATP III (our " gold

standard " for cholesterol recommendations) the " Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes "

(TLC) Diet is as follows:

Table 6. Nutrient Composition of the TLC Diet

Nutrient Recommended Intake

Saturated fat* Less than 7% of total calories

Polyunsaturated fat Up to 10% of total calories

Monounsaturated fat Up to 20% of total calories

Total fat 25-35% of total calories

Carbohydrate† 50-60% of total calories

Fiber 20-30 g/day

Protein Approximately 15% of total calories

Cholesterol Less than 200 mg/day

Total calories (energy)‡ Balance energy intake and expenditure to

maintain desirable body weight/prevent weight gain

For weight-loss, I have not recommended low-fat for a very long time. See

above.

I agree with everything you recommend, but I am curious--why 30% protein?

Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

www.newlifeforhealth.com

e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

> I haven´t read this book but I am curious about his " amazing "

> theories.

> What he considers anti-nutrients? Food compounds that interfere with

> nutrient absorption in the gut? Because iron can be an anti-nutrient for

> calcium for example. Zinc also can decrease calcium absorption, oxalates

> interfere with the absorption of plenty of nutrients.Or just food

> compounds that can trigger an immune response?

> According to the references that I have Palaeolithic humans didn't have

> any ingestion of fat of 60%. In the latest references that I read (and

> others show similar numbers) this was the nutrient distribution in the

> palaeolithic diet:

>

> - Protein 34%

> - Fat- 21%

> - Carbohydrate- 21%

> - P: S ratio 1.4

> - Fibre (g/day)- 46g

> - Calcium (mg/day)- 1580

> - Vitamin C (mg/day): 400

> - Sodium (mg/day): 690

>

> " Palaeolithic man was long considered to have been primarily a hunter

> therefore to have obtained a high proportion of his diet from meat. This

> may have been true until the period shortly before the dawn of

> agriculture about 10.000 BC when overhunting, climate changes and

> population growth brought about a shift to subsistence activities with

> way of life not unlike that of few modern hunter-gathers who remain

> relative untouched. The dietary intake of some of these societies has

> been studied in recent years and in general tend to derive between 50

> and 80% by weight from plants "

> in A colour atlas and text of diet- related disorders.

>

> In one recent nutrigenomics conference that I went it was discussed that

> the " protective " effect of certain type of traditional diet like

> Mediterranean, Japanese or the one that Eskimos do probably are only

> protective for those populations because of different genetic

> expressions (mind that the genetic expression is something different

> from the gene pool). Eskimos and similar population living in the far

> north diets are very different, 10% or less of their food comes from

> vegetable in origin.

>

> Fructose is only harmfull (and I read a lot on this when I was reviewing

> the dietary recommendations for hyperuricemia) when ingested in large

> amounts as added sugar which it seams a lot of food there in US have it.

> Also fructose absorption in fruits depends on the fructose/glucose

> ratio. Does he explain how fructose acts like a neurotoxin? From what I

> know only glucose can cross blood/brain barrier.

>

> Cátia Borges, nutricionista

> ACES Alto-Tâmega e Barroso

> Centro de Saúde Chaves 1

>

>

> >

> >

> > Looking for RD prospective regarding the hypothesis that all humans,

> not just those with an allergy or intolerance to gluten, should avoid

> gluten due to the presence of " anti nutrients " such as

> > lectins, phytates, prolamines and saponins.Yes, I am reading Robb

> Wolf's Paleo Solution. And those of you who read the book, know he hates

> RDs, because " RDs don't challenge conventional diet principles " , that he

> believes are not evidence based. The book states that humans can

> " tolerate " these anti nutrients and plug along, but that we really have

> not evolved to live on a 60% grain based diet, and that high nutrient

> density foods (meat, veggies, sat/0-3 fats) should contribute the

> majority of our kcals.

> > The Paleo folks (yes I just joined a CrossFit gym) believe there are

> anti nutrients in dairy and legumes as well. The Paleo Diet (unprocessed

> foods, high nutrient density foods, high Omega 3 fat/sat fat) looks like

> this:

> > About 30% protein - from grass feed animals

> > About 60% fats- from meats, coconuts, avocados, olives, fish and fish

> oils

> > About 10% carbs from veggies. Higher carbs, add more and fruit when

> working out more.

> > Small amounts of nuts and seeds are OK, but their fat profile (higher

> in O-6) keeps them on the limit list.

> > Low fructose fruits are ok, like berries, but fructose is also

> believed to be a neurotoxin, and a " food crack " for the average human.

> > The worst possible diet, according to this camp is a high grain, high

> fructose, high Omega 6 diet, with corn oil, gluten and fructose being

> the major bad guys, and protein, saturated fats, O-3s and root/bulb

> veggies being the good guys.

> >

> > I am searching NIH and PubMed and not finding much at all discussing

> the dangers of these anti nutrients in the human food supply. I see some

> info about anti nutrients in soy, and data about gluten toxicity in

> Celiac dx, but not the general population.

> > The Paleo Internet sites are full of information stating that most

> diseases (obesity, general fatigue, allergies, GI in tolerances, DM,

> etc) would disappear if grains, dairy and legumes are eliminated.

> >

> > Is anyone else reading this book?

> > I would love to discuss all this conflicting information.

> >

> > Osowski MS, RD, LD

> > Registered Dietitian

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

, I am one of those persons that doesn't follow the guidelines

recommendations w/o seeing what is behind those recommendations. I don't agree

with the food pyramid for example, I don't even agree with the Portuguese food

well update. I am interested in knowing other points of view. Yet I don't like

persons like Robb Wolf that start bashing all the guidelines and health

professionals and write in a pretty aggressive way (from what I read in the

listserve, I haven't read the book).

I would like to know what is his definition for anti-nutrients. Also I am very

interested in the food components that increase intestinal permeability, since I

have been focus my attention lately on IBS.

Also I don't think that anyone with proper scientific knowledge would recommend

for diabetic patients 65% of total energy from carbs.

As for the saturated fat, not all saturated fat is the same, some saturated fats

increase blood cholesterol, some are neutral and some research show even that

some can decrease it (I don't have the references with me right now).

As I said in my 1st post, and someone also said in the listserve there isn't

only 1 type of Paleo diet, according to where populations lived and the food

available the ingestion of macronutrients was probably different according to

the food available. And people need to keep in mind that our genome isn't the

same as it was 2 million of years ago. Is it adapted to the major changes in

food ingestion that appeared on the last century no it isn't.

I have read a vey interesting article on paleo humans food ingestion on

Nutrition in Clinical Practice from last year (it is in my car atm lol) I will

post a summary later.

Cátia Borges,

nutricionista

ACES Alto-Tâmega e Barroso

>

>

> Do you understand the scientific research behind the USDA guidelines for a

45-65% C, 10-35% P and 20-35% F diet that directs folks to high fiber grains and

trans fat free, very low sat fat, lean proteins?

> Robb Wolf, and other researchers present a lot of studies to defend his

positions that are counter to the USDA guidelines. Is he off the mark?

> He predicts there will be class action lawsuits against endos and

cardiologists and RDs who teach the USDA standard diet recommendations despite

all the real science that negates the USDA diet composition. He states it is

criminal to teach DM patients to eat refined bread with fiber added back in up

to 65% of total kcals. And teaching heart patients to consume a low sat fat,

low chol diet is not supported be the research, and that folks should sue

healthy professionals who accept the status quo without understanding the real

research.

>

>

> And here is a summary and the reference to a recent peer review journal

article explaining that foods from the Paleo period are inherently more healthy

than the processed standard American diet widely consumed today.

>

> The western diet and lifestyle and diseases of civilization

> Research Reports in Clinical Cardiology 2011:2

> Table 4 Foods consumed during the Paleolithic Era14,64,65,154,155,157

> Foods available

> Insects, fish, shellfish and

> Other marine animals, reptiles, birds,

> wild terrestrial mammals and eggs

> Plant leaves, seaweed, sea

> grasses and algae

> Roots

> Tubers

> Berries and wild fruits

> Nuts and seeds

> Honey (occasional intake)

>

> Foods not available

> Dairy (except for human milk

> during weaning)

> Cereal grains (with the exception

> of occasional intake in the upper

> Palaeolithic)

> Legumes (except certain varieties

> that were consumed seasonally)

> Isolated sugar

> Isolated oils

> Alcohol

> Refined salt (even sea salt would

> be available only for shore-based

> populations who may have dipped

> their food in sea water)

>

> Antinutrient content and inflammatory

> potential

> Alterations in gut microbiotica220 and increased intestinal

> permeability221 are possible causes of low-grade chronic

> inflammation. Indeed, when the intestinal barrier is disrupted,

> it allows increased passage of gut luminal antigens

> derived from food, bacteria, and viruses221 into peripheral

> circulation 222).

> Moreover, proinflammatory cytokines may disrupt insulin signaling,

> promoting insulin resistance.164 So a chronic low-grade endotoxemia

> may lead to low-grade chronic inflammation,222 which is at the root of

> various disorders.160,165†" 167,222,224,225

> In this regard, recent evidence shows that certain western

> foods (dairy cream, butter, egg muffins, sausage muffins,

> hash browns, and sugar) allow increased passage of luminal

> antigens into peripheral circulation, leading to TLR2 and

> TLR4 activation.222,226†" 228 Some factors contributing to increased

intestinal

> Permeability include nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs,221

> antacids,221 changes in gut microbiota,221 alcohol,229 lectins,221

> saponins,230†" 235 and gliadin.236

>

> % kcal distribution of Paleo diet

> The percentage of total food energy (%) derived from

> macronutrients in Paleolithic diets would typically be

> different from current official dietary guidelines (protein = 15

> %; CHO = 55†" 60 en%, and dietary fat # 30%).65

> Cordain et al155 estimated that the diets of historically

> studied hunter†" gatherer populations were higher in protein

> (19†" 35%), lower in CHO (22†" 40 %), and equivalent or

> even higher in dietary fat (28†" 58 %).

>

>

> Summary

> The adoption of diet and lifestyle that are very different from

> what shaped the human genome for more than 2 million

> years is a major factor in the widespread prevalence of chronic

> degenerative diseases that are epidemic in western countries.

> This conclusion strongly suggests that focusing on isolated

> dietary or lifestyle variables is not an appropriate preventive

> medicine strategy.

> Indeed, the evolutionary template predicts that optimal

> gene expression, and ultimately an increase in health span

> (the number of years in good health), even if it would not

> affect average life expectancy, will not be achieved by any

> single dietary or lifestyle change but rather through the

> combination of several measures, such as regular physical

> exercise; stress management; sun exposure according to

> latitude and skin color (in order to maintain plasma 25[OH]

> D above 45 ng/mL and at the same time avoiding the adverse

> effects of excessive sun exposure); adequate sleep; avoidance

> of tobacco smoke; reduced exposure to pollutants, dietary

> AGEs, ALES, and other Maillard reaction compounds; and

> the adoption of a diet similar to that followed by Paleolithic

> hunter†" gatherers. Giving support to this notion, four recent

> human intervention trials18,23,341,342 and one animal trial343 have

> demonstrated that a diet composed of meat, fish, shellfish,

> eggs, fresh fruit and vegetables, roots, tubers, nuts, and

> seeds may be superior to so-called healthy diets such as the

> Mediterranean diet.34

>

>

>

>

> I am an older RD. I am reading everything I can and keeping an open mind. At

this point in my career, I am much more likely to give my kids, and to recommend

to my patients paleo friendly foods: red meat, coconut oil, sweet potatoes, fish

oil, eggs, then unlimited fruits, processed carbs, fat free dressing, and smart

balance margarine. I think it is good to read and learn about the " other side "

of the research, even if the knowledge pursuit solidifies your trust in the USDA

guidelines.

>

> Osowski MS, RD, LD

> Registered Dietitian

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello

I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts from

the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

" It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary and

other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated with

dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

" Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases we

now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

" It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets that

were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some species) a

small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern continued

to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years ago)...

" Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the evolution

of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly capable of

hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much evidence

points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on plant foods "

" Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

Estimated Ancestral

Nutrients

Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

Fiber g/d - >70

Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

Vitamin C mg/d - 500

Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

Potassium mg/d - 7000

Biomarkers

Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

Body composition % lean, % of fat

Females 35-40 :20-25

Males 45-50:10-15

Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

Best regards

Cátia Borges

[Guest guest]

Hello

I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts from

the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

" It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary and

other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated with

dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

" Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases we

now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

" It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets that

were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some species) a

small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern continued

to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years ago)...

" Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the evolution

of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly capable of

hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much evidence

points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on plant foods "

" Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

Estimated Ancestral

Nutrients

Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

Fiber g/d - >70

Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

Vitamin C mg/d - 500

Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

Potassium mg/d - 7000

Biomarkers

Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

Body composition % lean, % of fat

Females 35-40 :20-25

Males 45-50:10-15

Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

Best regards

Cátia Borges

[Guest guest]

If caloric intake is appropriate, or geared for weight loss, than in order to

meet protein needs, the ratio (compared to carbs, for example) may have to

increase.  It's not necessarily about too much because it's 30%, it's all

relative to the total caloric intake.

I weigh 140#. Est protein needs (I'm a crossfitter, going ~4 x week) ~63 x 1.5

g/kg = 95g = 380-400 kcal (just raw numbers, never get this accurate in real

life, only in TPN).

If I wanted to lose weight and, say, aim for 1500 kcal/d, that would be about

25% of my total kcals.

This doesn't seem unreasonable for someone trying to lose weight (probably

weighs more than me), but needs to be around 1200-1500 kcal to lose weight. 

 

Endurance athletes need ~2 g/kg.  I'll agree that most of these Paleo folks go

overboard and get too much protein. When I'm asked, I explain the high acidity

and phosphorus contributing to pulling calcium out of their bones. I'm not too

worried about the nitrogen for the young, healthy kidneys but do strongly

recommend they eschew the protein powders and just stick to eating clean, whole

foods.  And positive reinforcement for the vegetables and fruits.  I also

suggest the chocolate milk postworkout (instead of protein powder) is a good

idea (so at least they are getting some calcium).  Despite the " dairy is bad "

mentality, most like chocolate milk as a recovery beverage (I just close my

mouth and role my eyes in private, they can be hypocritical sometimes).

Holly

----------

Holly Lee Brewer, MS RD CDE

Pediatric Dietitian, Diabetes Educator

Medical Nutrition Therapist, Las Vegas, NV

Maj Holly Brewer, USAFR BSC http://hollyinbalad.blogspot.com

301st MDS, NAS JRB Fort Worth (Carswell), TX

Joint Base Balad, Iraq (Jan-Jul 2009)

________________________________

To: rd-usa

Sent: Sun, April 10, 2011 5:07:44 AM

Subject: Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

 

Hello

I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts from

the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

" It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary and

other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated with

dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

" Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases we

now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

" It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets that

were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some species) a

small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern continued

to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years ago)...

" Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the evolution

of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly capable of

hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much evidence

points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on plant foods "

" Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

Estimated Ancestral

Nutrients

Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

Fiber g/d - >70

Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

Vitamin C mg/d - 500

Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

Potassium mg/d - 7000

Biomarkers

Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

Body composition % lean, % of fat

Females 35-40 :20-25

Males 45-50:10-15

Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

Best regards

Cátia Borges

[Guest guest]

Colleagues,

I still see 25-30% protein in the estimated breakdown from this article, which

doesn't " jive " with the rest of the evidence presented for predominantly

plant-based diet with small amounts of animal and preponderance of marine flesh.

Comments?

Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

www.newlifeforhealth.com

e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

Hello

I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts

from the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

" It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary and

other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated with

dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

" Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases we

now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

" It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets that

were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some species) a

small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern continued

to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years ago)...

" Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the

evolution of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly

capable of hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much

evidence points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on

plant foods "

" Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

Estimated Ancestral

Nutrients

Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

Fiber g/d - >70

Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

Vitamin C mg/d - 500

Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

Potassium mg/d - 7000

Biomarkers

Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

Body composition % lean, % of fat

Females 35-40 :20-25

Males 45-50:10-15

Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

Best regards

Cátia Borges

[Guest guest]

Colleagues,

I still see 25-30% protein in the estimated breakdown from this article, which

doesn't " jive " with the rest of the evidence presented for predominantly

plant-based diet with small amounts of animal and preponderance of marine flesh.

Comments?

Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

www.newlifeforhealth.com

e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

Hello

I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts

from the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

" It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary and

other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated with

dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

" Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases we

now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

" It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets that

were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some species) a

small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern continued

to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years ago)...

" Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the

evolution of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly

capable of hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much

evidence points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on

plant foods "

" Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

Estimated Ancestral

Nutrients

Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

Fiber g/d - >70

Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

Vitamin C mg/d - 500

Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

Potassium mg/d - 7000

Biomarkers

Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

Body composition % lean, % of fat

Females 35-40 :20-25

Males 45-50:10-15

Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

Best regards

Cátia Borges

[Guest guest]

I though the same Diane, and from what I know from Paleo humans hunting habits

they didn't hunt game meat everyday. I didn't find the type of vegetables they

ate, maybe these were rich in protein? I will try to find more sources.

Cátia

>

> Colleagues,

>

> I still see 25-30% protein in the estimated breakdown from this article, which

doesn't " jive " with the rest of the evidence presented for predominantly

plant-based diet with small amounts of animal and preponderance of marine flesh.

>

> Comments?

>

> Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

> N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

> www.newlifeforhealth.com

> e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

>

>

>

> Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

>

>

> Hello

> I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

>

> About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts

from the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

>

> " It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

>

> New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary

and other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated

with dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

>

> " Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases

we now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

>

> " It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets

that were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some

species) a small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern

continued to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years

ago)...

>

> " Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the

evolution of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly

capable of hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much

evidence points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on

plant foods "

>

> " Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

>

> Estimated Ancestral

> Nutrients

> Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

> Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

> Fiber g/d - >70

> Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

> Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

> Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

> Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

> EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

> Vitamin C mg/d - 500

> Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

> Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

> Potassium mg/d - 7000

> Biomarkers

> Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

> Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

> Body composition % lean, % of fat

> Females 35-40 :20-25

> Males 45-50:10-15

> Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

>

> I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

>

> Best regards

> Cátia Borges

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I though the same Diane, and from what I know from Paleo humans hunting habits

they didn't hunt game meat everyday. I didn't find the type of vegetables they

ate, maybe these were rich in protein? I will try to find more sources.

Cátia

>

> Colleagues,

>

> I still see 25-30% protein in the estimated breakdown from this article, which

doesn't " jive " with the rest of the evidence presented for predominantly

plant-based diet with small amounts of animal and preponderance of marine flesh.

>

> Comments?

>

> Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

> N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

> www.newlifeforhealth.com

> e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

>

>

>

> Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

>

>

> Hello

> I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

>

> About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts

from the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

>

> " It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

>

> New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary

and other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated

with dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

>

> " Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases

we now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

>

> " It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets

that were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some

species) a small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern

continued to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years

ago)...

>

> " Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the

evolution of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly

capable of hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much

evidence points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on

plant foods "

>

> " Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

>

> Estimated Ancestral

> Nutrients

> Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

> Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

> Fiber g/d - >70

> Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

> Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

> Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

> Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

> EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

> Vitamin C mg/d - 500

> Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

> Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

> Potassium mg/d - 7000

> Biomarkers

> Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

> Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

> Body composition % lean, % of fat

> Females 35-40 :20-25

> Males 45-50:10-15

> Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

>

> I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

>

> Best regards

> Cátia Borges

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Aha! Sounds the same as current strong evidence for eating meat only 3x/week

(or less amounts throughout the 7 days/week). As usual, it likely comes down to

amounts. The way these Paleo-people make it sound, one would think a

high-animal protein diet is physiologically best.

FYI, I will cannot discuss from the premise of " Paleo " since I do not ascribe to

the theory of " hominids " and " humanoids " of 50,000-100,000 years ago, or 2-6

million years ago, depending on the numbers one chooses to believe. But that's

a whole different story!

Thanks for sharing and trying to find more sources, Catia.

Respectfully to all,

Diane

Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

>

>

> Hello

> I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

>

> About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts

from the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

>

> " It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

>

> New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary

and other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated

with dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

>

> " Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases

we now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

>

> " It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets

that were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some

species) a small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern

continued to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years

ago)...

>

> " Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the

evolution of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly

capable of hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much

evidence points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on

plant foods "

>

> " Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

>

> Estimated Ancestral

> Nutrients

> Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

> Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

> Fiber g/d - >70

> Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

> Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

> Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

> Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

> EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

> Vitamin C mg/d - 500

> Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

> Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

> Potassium mg/d - 7000

> Biomarkers

> Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

> Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

> Body composition % lean, % of fat

> Females 35-40 :20-25

> Males 45-50:10-15

> Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

>

> I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

>

> Best regards

> Cátia Borges

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Aha! Sounds the same as current strong evidence for eating meat only 3x/week

(or less amounts throughout the 7 days/week). As usual, it likely comes down to

amounts. The way these Paleo-people make it sound, one would think a

high-animal protein diet is physiologically best.

FYI, I will cannot discuss from the premise of " Paleo " since I do not ascribe to

the theory of " hominids " and " humanoids " of 50,000-100,000 years ago, or 2-6

million years ago, depending on the numbers one chooses to believe. But that's

a whole different story!

Thanks for sharing and trying to find more sources, Catia.

Respectfully to all,

Diane

Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

>

>

>

> Hello

> I am also curious about why you give 30% protein, is that in all of your

overweight patients or in those that are in long term care and undernourished? I

know protein triggers satiety mechanisms, but isn't 30% a bit too much

considering that protein increases urinary calcium excretion (and we don't take

enough sun or do enough physical exercise to counter that) and that increases

glomerular filtration load?

>

> About Palaeolithic nutrition here it is some more info, just some extracts

from the paper I read in Nutr Clin Pract. 2010; 25: 594-602

>

> " It is true that since modern humans left Africa between 100.000 and 50.000y

ago, genetic evolution during subsequent millenia has continued[...] intestinal

lactase retention beyond infancy...

>

> New analytic methods are revealing subtler genetic adaptations to dietary

and other ecological niches, including different allele frequencies associated

with dependence on cereal grains as opposed to roots and tubers. However, the

importance of these differences is not clear, but we know that core biochemical

and physiological process have been preserved. "

>

> " Death of hunter gathers (HG) was overwhelmingly due to infections diseases

we now control, and older HG rarely got or died of coronary artery disease,

diabetes mellitus, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, among other

ailments common in societies like ours "

>

> " It is clear that ancestral human diets derive from higher primate diets

that were overwhelmingly plant based suplemented by insects and (in some

species) a small amount of animal flesh. Fossil evidence shows that this pattern

continued to be true for early bipedal hominids (between 6 and 2 million years

ago)...

>

> " Reliance on animal flesh increased substantially after 2mya, with the

evolution of Homo habilis and and especially Homo erectus, a species clearly

capable of hunting large game, an ability shared by modern humans. However, much

evidence points to continued significant (if not predominant) dependence on

plant foods "

>

> " Finally, it become clear since our initial publications that marine,

lacustrine, and riverine species were important sources of animal flesh during

the evolution of modern Homo sapiens and may have played a role in the evolution

of brain ontogeny. "

>

> Estimated Ancestral

> Nutrients

> Carbohydrate % of daily energy - 35-40

> Added sugar % of daily energy - 2

> Fiber g/d - >70

> Protein % of daily energy - 25-30

> Fat % of daily energy- 20-35

> Saturated fat % of daily energy- 7.5-12

> Cholesterol mg/d - 500+

> EPA g/d - 0.7-0.6

> Vitamin C mg/d - 500

> Vitamin D IU/d - 4000

> Calcium mg/d - 1000-1500

> Potassium mg/d - 7000

> Biomarkers

> Blood pressure, mm Hg 110/70

> Serum cholesterol, mg /dL 125

> Body composition % lean, % of fat

> Females 35-40 :20-25

> Males 45-50:10-15

> Physical Activity, kcal/d >1000

>

> I suggest reading the full paper gives a lot of insight into ancestral food

habits, the types of saturated fat and carbs consumed and other topics.

>

> Best regards

> Cátia Borges

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Diane -

I am out of town on spring break, so have limited web time, but wanted to

respond to your questions.

A few subjective comments first.

I believe different RDs design different diets to help their patients reach

their goals.

What I tell clients is based on my interpretation of the research, and it can be

contrary to yours, and we are both within our scope of practice.

In other words, I don't have to be wrong for you to be right. We can both read

the research and help people using evidence based nutrition, yes?

I don't have an agenda, but I do have biases. When I see that my diet design

starting point (often 30% P, 20-40% C, 40-50% F) is not consistent with a

client's starting point, or their wishes, use my clinical judgement and adjust

my recs.

I responded to your questions/comments below.

DIANE I believe 30% protein to be too high and have seen across-the-board

improvement with Dr. Gerald Reaven's reco for " Syndrome X " diet (metabolic

syndrome, pre-diabetes, hyperinsulinemia, whatever you want to call it!) at 45%

CH0:15 % Pro: 40% Fat (predominantly plant & fish fat). How does one get 30%

protein without eating an excess of animal protein?

LISA I think a diet rich in animal protein and fats is healthy and the way to

go. I believe that a lower protein diet (15%) that is be default, higher 45+%

carbohydrate is hard on the pancreas, and in my experience is not satisfying. In

addition, unless the client is workout, 45%+ C diets can lead to

hyperinsulinemia, which as you mentioned above, we are trying to prevent. This

is especially true when clients pick poor quality carbs. I would rather see 30

gm of protein (than carbs) at breakfast (see all the excellent work by

Layman from the U of Illinois RE the anabolic effects, and positive metabolic

signaling observed with 30+ gm protein boluses). So I prefer eggs, meat, milk,

cheese, or even legumes, to a higher carb breakfast. So basically, I like to

keep the carbs moderate (around 150-175 gm/d for many clients, more with good

carb choices, exercise, etc) , so to do so, I need to have higher amounts of pro

and fats. In many cases my diets set protein at about 2 gm/kg/d. I dont see

kidney damage with this, but I do see alot of pancreatic derangement when folks

eat high carb meals over and over and over.

DIANE Is the std diabetic recommendation really to treat without regard to

carbohydrate quality education?

LISA When I see high A1Cs, the knee jerk MD response is to dose more insulin,

not to order an RD education to reduce the carb intake and/or to address the

carb quality as the primary treatment. There is so much that can be done to help

DM patients better manage their glucose excursions, and I know most folks are

confused about how to improve their control. Often what they do is buy more " DM

foods " and cross their fingers that that will work. Using an 1800 kcal diet

example, your diet designs limit protein to 270 kcals, and allow approx. 202 gm

carb (45%), I meet many folks for whom 203 grams of carbs is too much,

especially if they don't exercise. I know there is a protein ceiling at about

30%. High protein foods have high satiety and people rarely crave more protein

once they are consuming roughly 30%. I am not a fat phobic RD, but since I see

the need to control carbs, I have to be more liberal with protein. Folks with

healthy kidney function can handle 30% protein, most folks can not handle 45%+

C, especially if they are already in metabolic derangement and especially if

obese.

DIANE While I understand the std treatment for chol to be Lipitor from

physician, surely RD's do educate/adjust composition of diet with focus on HDL,

triglycerides and oxidized LDL fraction? In the NCEP ATP III (our " gold

standard " for cholesterol recommendations) the " Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes "

(TLC) Diet is as follows: Table 6. Nutrient Composition of the TLC Diet Nutrient

Recommended Intake: Saturated fat* Less than 7% of total calories,

Polyunsaturated fat Up to 10% of total calories, Monounsaturated fat Up to 20%

of total calories, Total fat 25-35% of total calories, Carbohydrate† 50-60% of

total calories, Fiber 20-30 g/day, Protein Approximately 15% of total calories,

Cholesterol Less than 200 mg/day, Total calories (energy)‡ Balance energy

intake and expenditure to maintain desirable body weight/prevent weight gain.

The TLC diet design is not consistent with the Syndrome X guidelines, the fats

are different.

I don't buy the ATP III research, which assumes that total fat must be capped at

35%, saturated fat is dangerous and should be capped at <10% and that there is

no need to differentiate between 0-3 and 0-6 PUFAs, and I don't support limiting

daily cholesterol intake to < 200 mg/d. I agree with the 20% mono, 20+ gm fiber

targets. I do believe oxidized LDL is dangerous and should be avoided.

Since I do eat meat and eggs and cheese (note: dairy is notPaleo), I obviously

do not believe in the lipid hypothesis which claims that adiet low in saturated

fats and high in vegetable oils is healthy. I do notbelieve that the lower the

LDL the lower the risk of heart dx. I believe that a diet high in

carbohydrateand high in saturated fats is dangerous (raises B type LDL,

increases inflammation),thus my eye is on controlling the type and amount of

carbs (primarily veggiesand fruits) with a liberal view on saturated fat and

dietary cholesterolintake.

Here is how I educate patients RE heart dx.

You probably know that trans fats are dangerous and to beavoided. In the 50s it

was discoveredthat saturated fat intake correlated with heart dx. But,so did

excessive carbohydrate intake, but this was not reported. Furthermore, Ancel

Keys' 7 county studyshowing the correlation between countries with high fat

intake and heartdisease, did not include data points from several countries that

did notsupport his hypothesis that fat = heart dx. It is very possible to eat a

lowsat fat diet, have very low LDL from statin therapy, and still have a

heartattack. And, it is possible to have high or low LDL and have a heart

attack. Tobest prevent a heart attack. I watch VLDL(will be high with excessive

carb intake), and when available, B type (small dense LDL), andinflammation

markers. I like to see high HDL, low VLDL, low TGs and lowinflammation which I

see more often in higher pro, animal pro based diets.

There are saturated and unsaturated fats. Ilike to explain that saturated fats

are back! We used to think they were to be avoidedand replaced with very

processed seed oils. Sat fat is not the bad guy, unregulated carb intake is the

problem. Lauric acid (C12)found in coconut, palm, and breast milk is cardio

neutral. It raises LDL (butnot type , has antiviral properties and heals gut

irritation. Palmitic (C16) found in palm, beef, eggs,milk, poultry and fish is

also cardio neutral. It will raise LDL (butnot type and also enhances memory

andcognitive function. Important note: if you consume more carb than you can

use/burn,your body converts the carb into palmitic acid since we are animals, we

turnexcess carbs into saturated fat for storage. The last sat fat is steric

(C18),this one is cardio protective. Steric acid, found in meat and eggs,

increases HDL, has a neutral effect on LDL,and decreases systemic inflammation.

OMG – I know many RDs will, but I justcan’t find a reason to limit saturated

fat! In my world, eggs, 2% milk (go for whole if you can spare the kcals),meat,

coconuts are encouraged.

Monounsaturated fats get all the glory as the “Mediterraneanwonder fat†and

more recently as the “wonderful anti-cortisol, anti-belly

fatâ€.Interestingly, monounsaturated fats werethe predominate fat in the

paleolithic diet patterns across the world.The main mono is oleic acid (1 bond

C18) found in olives, avocados and nuts and seeds. These fats lower totalchol,

increase insulin sensitivity, increase glucagon action, and containantioxidants.

It is hypothesized that high mono intake derails the negativeeffects of

cortisol. These fats are a go in my diet designs.

Polyunsaturated fats

So when saturated fats became vilified in the 50s, weditched butter and ate

margarine. Sincethe 50s we have added corn and soybean oil to virtually all of

our food supply,ever restaurant uses corn oil, and most of our shelf stable

foodscontain corn (or HFCS) or other O-6 oils (corn, soy, safflower). We are

consuming high levels of the leastnutritious, potentially dangerous oils.

Chemically, there arethree major polyunsat fats. ALA alpha linolenic acid (>1

bond CF18) found inflax, hemp and plants. This FA has non compelling health

effects, with minimalconversion of ALA to EPA/DHA. Then there are the

powerhouses EPA and DHA whichare only found in animal sources. EPA has potent

anti inflammatory properties, and lowers platelet aggregation. DHA is required

in fetal development, and in normal cognitive functioning, also found to have

anti tumor properties ans anti inflammatory properties. I believe it is

important to steer folks away from high O-6 foods and towards O-3 foods like

salmon, fish oil, grass feed beef and flax feed eggs.

To recap my position...... to prevent heart disease, I focus on low to moderate

carb level depending on activity level. I like to see approx. 30% protein, and

I go as 50+% fat, with liberal amounts of saturated fat and O-3 fats.

DIANE For weight-loss, I have not recommended low-fat for a very long time. See

above. I agree with everything you recommend, but I am curious--why 30% protein?

LISA With wt loss clients, I see more success with higher protein levels, that

include animal products.

Eating meat vs vegetarian protein sources.Here is where we are inherently

different RDs. I wasvegetarian for many years while in college. In hindsight, I

was always hungry,always thinking about food, had low energy, and had to use

extreme disciplineto stay wt stable, which I did. Was my diet perfect, or even

great? No, I was in college, I ate a lot of cereal/milk, bagels, popcorn, cheese

pizza, bean burritos, salad,beer and candy bars. Over the last 20 years, I have

added more and more animalproteins into my diet (and my overall food quality has

improved which is a major confounding variable) and I am much more satisfied

after eachmeal, I am effortlessly wt stable. I feel that my meals optimally fuel

mymetabolism based on my energy level and body composition. This will get me

introuble, but I do see grains, beans, rice, nuts and seeds as 3rdworld protein

sources that will keep me alive, but I thrive better on animal protein. This is

also the position of Robb Wolf. This is just how I see nutrition. Proteinand

fat are good. Carbs mean veggies and fruits to me, and then carb means ancient

grains like brown rice. And believe me, I holdmy breathe whenever a new study

comes out that challenges the benefits ofeating meat. I do have a bias towards

including animal proteins, and if real evidence compels me to give up meat, I

will cry. When I counselvegetarians, I see a lot of TVP and a lot of low quality

carbs. I encouragetofu, brown rice etc and I support their ethical views, but

deep down, I amglad I don’t have to follow their chosen diet as it has low

satiety/lowenjoyment for me.

Osowski MS, RD, LD

Registered Dietitian

Re: Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

Colleagues,

I still see 25-30% protein in the estimated breakdown from this article, which

doesn't " jive " with the rest of the evidence presented for predominantly

plant-based diet with small amounts of animal and preponderance of marine flesh.

Comments?

Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

www.newlifeforhealth.com

e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Diane -

I am out of town on spring break, so have limited web time, but wanted to

respond to your questions.

A few subjective comments first.

I believe different RDs design different diets to help their patients reach

their goals.

What I tell clients is based on my interpretation of the research, and it can be

contrary to yours, and we are both within our scope of practice.

In other words, I don't have to be wrong for you to be right. We can both read

the research and help people using evidence based nutrition, yes?

I don't have an agenda, but I do have biases. When I see that my diet design

starting point (often 30% P, 20-40% C, 40-50% F) is not consistent with a

client's starting point, or their wishes, use my clinical judgement and adjust

my recs.

I responded to your questions/comments below.

DIANE I believe 30% protein to be too high and have seen across-the-board

improvement with Dr. Gerald Reaven's reco for " Syndrome X " diet (metabolic

syndrome, pre-diabetes, hyperinsulinemia, whatever you want to call it!) at 45%

CH0:15 % Pro: 40% Fat (predominantly plant & fish fat). How does one get 30%

protein without eating an excess of animal protein?

LISA I think a diet rich in animal protein and fats is healthy and the way to

go. I believe that a lower protein diet (15%) that is be default, higher 45+%

carbohydrate is hard on the pancreas, and in my experience is not satisfying. In

addition, unless the client is workout, 45%+ C diets can lead to

hyperinsulinemia, which as you mentioned above, we are trying to prevent. This

is especially true when clients pick poor quality carbs. I would rather see 30

gm of protein (than carbs) at breakfast (see all the excellent work by

Layman from the U of Illinois RE the anabolic effects, and positive metabolic

signaling observed with 30+ gm protein boluses). So I prefer eggs, meat, milk,

cheese, or even legumes, to a higher carb breakfast. So basically, I like to

keep the carbs moderate (around 150-175 gm/d for many clients, more with good

carb choices, exercise, etc) , so to do so, I need to have higher amounts of pro

and fats. In many cases my diets set protein at about 2 gm/kg/d. I dont see

kidney damage with this, but I do see alot of pancreatic derangement when folks

eat high carb meals over and over and over.

DIANE Is the std diabetic recommendation really to treat without regard to

carbohydrate quality education?

LISA When I see high A1Cs, the knee jerk MD response is to dose more insulin,

not to order an RD education to reduce the carb intake and/or to address the

carb quality as the primary treatment. There is so much that can be done to help

DM patients better manage their glucose excursions, and I know most folks are

confused about how to improve their control. Often what they do is buy more " DM

foods " and cross their fingers that that will work. Using an 1800 kcal diet

example, your diet designs limit protein to 270 kcals, and allow approx. 202 gm

carb (45%), I meet many folks for whom 203 grams of carbs is too much,

especially if they don't exercise. I know there is a protein ceiling at about

30%. High protein foods have high satiety and people rarely crave more protein

once they are consuming roughly 30%. I am not a fat phobic RD, but since I see

the need to control carbs, I have to be more liberal with protein. Folks with

healthy kidney function can handle 30% protein, most folks can not handle 45%+

C, especially if they are already in metabolic derangement and especially if

obese.

DIANE While I understand the std treatment for chol to be Lipitor from

physician, surely RD's do educate/adjust composition of diet with focus on HDL,

triglycerides and oxidized LDL fraction? In the NCEP ATP III (our " gold

standard " for cholesterol recommendations) the " Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes "

(TLC) Diet is as follows: Table 6. Nutrient Composition of the TLC Diet Nutrient

Recommended Intake: Saturated fat* Less than 7% of total calories,

Polyunsaturated fat Up to 10% of total calories, Monounsaturated fat Up to 20%

of total calories, Total fat 25-35% of total calories, Carbohydrate† 50-60% of

total calories, Fiber 20-30 g/day, Protein Approximately 15% of total calories,

Cholesterol Less than 200 mg/day, Total calories (energy)‡ Balance energy

intake and expenditure to maintain desirable body weight/prevent weight gain.

The TLC diet design is not consistent with the Syndrome X guidelines, the fats

are different.

I don't buy the ATP III research, which assumes that total fat must be capped at

35%, saturated fat is dangerous and should be capped at <10% and that there is

no need to differentiate between 0-3 and 0-6 PUFAs, and I don't support limiting

daily cholesterol intake to < 200 mg/d. I agree with the 20% mono, 20+ gm fiber

targets. I do believe oxidized LDL is dangerous and should be avoided.

Since I do eat meat and eggs and cheese (note: dairy is notPaleo), I obviously

do not believe in the lipid hypothesis which claims that adiet low in saturated

fats and high in vegetable oils is healthy. I do notbelieve that the lower the

LDL the lower the risk of heart dx. I believe that a diet high in

carbohydrateand high in saturated fats is dangerous (raises B type LDL,

increases inflammation),thus my eye is on controlling the type and amount of

carbs (primarily veggiesand fruits) with a liberal view on saturated fat and

dietary cholesterolintake.

Here is how I educate patients RE heart dx.

You probably know that trans fats are dangerous and to beavoided. In the 50s it

was discoveredthat saturated fat intake correlated with heart dx. But,so did

excessive carbohydrate intake, but this was not reported. Furthermore, Ancel

Keys' 7 county studyshowing the correlation between countries with high fat

intake and heartdisease, did not include data points from several countries that

did notsupport his hypothesis that fat = heart dx. It is very possible to eat a

lowsat fat diet, have very low LDL from statin therapy, and still have a

heartattack. And, it is possible to have high or low LDL and have a heart

attack. Tobest prevent a heart attack. I watch VLDL(will be high with excessive

carb intake), and when available, B type (small dense LDL), andinflammation

markers. I like to see high HDL, low VLDL, low TGs and lowinflammation which I

see more often in higher pro, animal pro based diets.

There are saturated and unsaturated fats. Ilike to explain that saturated fats

are back! We used to think they were to be avoidedand replaced with very

processed seed oils. Sat fat is not the bad guy, unregulated carb intake is the

problem. Lauric acid (C12)found in coconut, palm, and breast milk is cardio

neutral. It raises LDL (butnot type , has antiviral properties and heals gut

irritation. Palmitic (C16) found in palm, beef, eggs,milk, poultry and fish is

also cardio neutral. It will raise LDL (butnot type and also enhances memory

andcognitive function. Important note: if you consume more carb than you can

use/burn,your body converts the carb into palmitic acid since we are animals, we

turnexcess carbs into saturated fat for storage. The last sat fat is steric

(C18),this one is cardio protective. Steric acid, found in meat and eggs,

increases HDL, has a neutral effect on LDL,and decreases systemic inflammation.

OMG – I know many RDs will, but I justcan’t find a reason to limit saturated

fat! In my world, eggs, 2% milk (go for whole if you can spare the kcals),meat,

coconuts are encouraged.

Monounsaturated fats get all the glory as the “Mediterraneanwonder fat†and

more recently as the “wonderful anti-cortisol, anti-belly

fatâ€.Interestingly, monounsaturated fats werethe predominate fat in the

paleolithic diet patterns across the world.The main mono is oleic acid (1 bond

C18) found in olives, avocados and nuts and seeds. These fats lower totalchol,

increase insulin sensitivity, increase glucagon action, and containantioxidants.

It is hypothesized that high mono intake derails the negativeeffects of

cortisol. These fats are a go in my diet designs.

Polyunsaturated fats

So when saturated fats became vilified in the 50s, weditched butter and ate

margarine. Sincethe 50s we have added corn and soybean oil to virtually all of

our food supply,ever restaurant uses corn oil, and most of our shelf stable

foodscontain corn (or HFCS) or other O-6 oils (corn, soy, safflower). We are

consuming high levels of the leastnutritious, potentially dangerous oils.

Chemically, there arethree major polyunsat fats. ALA alpha linolenic acid (>1

bond CF18) found inflax, hemp and plants. This FA has non compelling health

effects, with minimalconversion of ALA to EPA/DHA. Then there are the

powerhouses EPA and DHA whichare only found in animal sources. EPA has potent

anti inflammatory properties, and lowers platelet aggregation. DHA is required

in fetal development, and in normal cognitive functioning, also found to have

anti tumor properties ans anti inflammatory properties. I believe it is

important to steer folks away from high O-6 foods and towards O-3 foods like

salmon, fish oil, grass feed beef and flax feed eggs.

To recap my position...... to prevent heart disease, I focus on low to moderate

carb level depending on activity level. I like to see approx. 30% protein, and

I go as 50+% fat, with liberal amounts of saturated fat and O-3 fats.

DIANE For weight-loss, I have not recommended low-fat for a very long time. See

above. I agree with everything you recommend, but I am curious--why 30% protein?

LISA With wt loss clients, I see more success with higher protein levels, that

include animal products.

Eating meat vs vegetarian protein sources.Here is where we are inherently

different RDs. I wasvegetarian for many years while in college. In hindsight, I

was always hungry,always thinking about food, had low energy, and had to use

extreme disciplineto stay wt stable, which I did. Was my diet perfect, or even

great? No, I was in college, I ate a lot of cereal/milk, bagels, popcorn, cheese

pizza, bean burritos, salad,beer and candy bars. Over the last 20 years, I have

added more and more animalproteins into my diet (and my overall food quality has

improved which is a major confounding variable) and I am much more satisfied

after eachmeal, I am effortlessly wt stable. I feel that my meals optimally fuel

mymetabolism based on my energy level and body composition. This will get me

introuble, but I do see grains, beans, rice, nuts and seeds as 3rdworld protein

sources that will keep me alive, but I thrive better on animal protein. This is

also the position of Robb Wolf. This is just how I see nutrition. Proteinand

fat are good. Carbs mean veggies and fruits to me, and then carb means ancient

grains like brown rice. And believe me, I holdmy breathe whenever a new study

comes out that challenges the benefits ofeating meat. I do have a bias towards

including animal proteins, and if real evidence compels me to give up meat, I

will cry. When I counselvegetarians, I see a lot of TVP and a lot of low quality

carbs. I encouragetofu, brown rice etc and I support their ethical views, but

deep down, I amglad I don’t have to follow their chosen diet as it has low

satiety/lowenjoyment for me.

Osowski MS, RD, LD

Registered Dietitian

Re: Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

Colleagues,

I still see 25-30% protein in the estimated breakdown from this article, which

doesn't " jive " with the rest of the evidence presented for predominantly

plant-based diet with small amounts of animal and preponderance of marine flesh.

Comments?

Diane Preves, M.S., R.D.

N.E.W. LIFE (Nutrition, Exercise, Wellness for LIFE)

www.newlifeforhealth.com

e-mail: newlife4health@..., newlife@...

[Guest guest]

Here is my take. Paleo diet if it moved kill it then eat it, cooking optional.

If it doesn't move gather it. Remember what the last plant was that made you

sick or killed your friend. Cooking optional.

Now not all meat is well marbled beef steaks. Most game animals are very lean

and down right dry if you do not use moist heat. In fact most of the cow is lean

meat that takes low slow moist heat. Most other meats are also not marbled

therefore lower in fat then you would think by everything you see out there.

Think dried out pork chops or the dry turkey Aunt Edna cooked.

Protein is not fat, in fact animal fat was so important to the native Alaskan

diet that it is still highly prized today. Seal oil $50 a quart. You would

starve to death on meat and fish alone.

If you look at all the older traditional diets around the world fats play an

important part to each diet. Different climate different fat sources.

Jackie Chase RD

Dillingham AK

[Guest guest]

Good take Jackie--thanks. Important contribution to the discussion!

Diane

Re: Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

Here is my take. Paleo diet if it moved kill it then eat it, cooking optional.

If it doesn't move gather it. Remember what the last plant was that made you

sick or killed your friend. Cooking optional.

Now not all meat is well marbled beef steaks. Most game animals are very lean

and down right dry if you do not use moist heat. In fact most of the cow is lean

meat that takes low slow moist heat. Most other meats are also not marbled

therefore lower in fat then you would think by everything you see out there.

Think dried out pork chops or the dry turkey Aunt Edna cooked.

Protein is not fat, in fact animal fat was so important to the native Alaskan

diet that it is still highly prized today. Seal oil $50 a quart. You would

starve to death on meat and fish alone.

If you look at all the older traditional diets around the world fats play an

important part to each diet. Different climate different fat sources.

Jackie Chase RD

Dillingham AK

[Guest guest]

LOVE IT!!!!! 

thanks Jackie for the morning giggles.

Holly

________________________________

To: rd-usa

Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 10:14:35 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Paleo diet/ gluten free for everyone?

 

Here is my take. Paleo diet if it moved kill it then eat it, cooking optional.

If it doesn't move gather it. Remember what the last plant was that made you

sick or killed your friend. Cooking optional.