Guest guest Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Hi, When I was finally diagnosed with PA, I was concerned about taking drugs at such a young age (early 30's - I will be 46 in July). I opted for the least amount of whatever I could take. This actually turned out to be the wrong course of action as taking a chance with the stronger drugs, even with the negative side affects would have prevented a lot of the damage I have encountered. I have never taken time off from work because of this disease but there have been times when my coworkers have commented on how bad or run down I looked. I am now on Enbrel. I can totally relate to the way you are dealing with this disease. I have many days when I could just lay there but I feel that this is self defeating behavior. Mentally, I feel better when I stay active because your mind tends not to focus on the pain if you can distract it with other activities. I also believe that exersize is essential to combating the disease. I do not adhere to no pain no gain but do beleive in use it or lose it with regard to your joints. I have the P pretty much under control with light therapy from my Dermatologist. Good luck with whatever course of treatment you decide to use, Tom in Anchorage with mixed rain and snow on Valentines day! Great driving weather for the ride to work in the morning! > > Hi All, > > I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for > me though. > I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle, > neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time > getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no > strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone > stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a > week. > > I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of > emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am > amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high > pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed > Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my > liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do > take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past > nights. > > I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything > thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so. > > Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold > anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than > anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by > harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I > want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I > have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings, > I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal > daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved. > You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o) > > Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that > has a physical job and is dealing with this? > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:29:04 -0000, tr1rt <tr1rt@...> wrote: > > > Hi, > When I was finally diagnosed with PA, I was concerned about taking drugs at such a young > age (early 30's - I will be 46 in July). I opted for the least amount of whatever I could take. > > [snip] > > Tom in Anchorage with mixed rain and snow on Valentines day! Great driving weather for > the ride to work in the morning! > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for > > me though. > > I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle, > > neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time > > getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no > > strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone > > stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a > > week. > > > > Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that > > has a physical job and is dealing with this? > > > > {snip} > > > > Pete > Thanks all for the info, quite informing. I guess to fill you in a little more on my condition: I also have Psoriasis on my elbows and shins, that is about all. Yes, this gets quite painful at times. As far as a Dr, havent been to a rhumo in about 20 years. We live 120 miles from a city, where there are somewhat real doctors. We have no health insurance, which isnt a bad thing, except maybe in this case. Reading a little also, about not being sick and PA attacking the auto-immune system. A few years back, it was just getting to be calving time. I was getting quite busy with my job. I started not feeling well. 101 fever, and getting out of bed and going to the couch was all I could do for the whole day. After about 4 weeks of this, I went to the local Dr. After a month of tests, it was decide that I should see an Oncologist, for fear of Lymphoma....yippee! Bone marrow aspiration was next (ANOTHER story) and that would be the conclusive test. To make a long story short...,.Mononucleosis is what it was. They had misplaced my bloodtest (yet ANOTHER story). For the first time thinking of it, I wonder if PA could have had something to do withme getting Mono? After all, at 40 I think it was, you generally dont get Mono. Interesting read about the biologic drugs for sure. Ranch hand wages would never allow me to go this route though. No complaint really, it is the lifestyle we enjoy. Thanks for all the info. -- Pete http://milneweb.com http://nomorevirus.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Hi Pete, I am 36 and was diagnosed when I was 33 with PA - although I have had the arthritis for as long as I can remember (around 20 probably) My doctor will give me any medicine but I only take it when I absolutely have too. I have two young children and have to get up and go every day!! What works for me is lifting moderate weights and moderate cardio every day and the tanning bed!!! Believe it or not the tanning bed takes the edge off of the arthritis pain and helps prevent the P. I wonder if I am doing myself harm by not taking the drugs, though....Good Luck, Pete <pmilne@...> wrote: Hi All, I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for me though. I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle, neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a week. I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past nights. I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so. Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings, I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved. You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o) Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that has a physical job and is dealing with this? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Hi Pete, I was first diagnosed with arthritis (in my case it was rheumatoid) when I was 16. I am now 55. I spent many years convincing myself that I was too young to be on medication so I toyed with various diets, I swam a great deal, etc. Unfortunately, by delaying getting the medications that would actually help me, I ended up with a great deal of permanent damage from the disease (finally diagnosed as PA a few years ago). There are medications today that not only deal with current painful symptoms but which also stem the spread of the disease. They don't work for everyone but they work for many. How I wish I could turn the clock back and take meds that actually work instead of spending years toying with things that were too mild - and too ineffective - to contain the spread of the disease and ease the pain. Wishing you wellness, Kathy F. > > Hi All, > > I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for > me though. > I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle, > neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time > getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no > strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone > stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a > week. > > I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of > emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am > amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high > pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed > Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my > liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do > take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past > nights. > > I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything > thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so. > > Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold > anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than > anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by > harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I > want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I > have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings, > I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal > daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved. > You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o) > > Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that > has a physical job and is dealing with this? > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Hi Pete, This IS the place for you to be in most ways. Although many folks here are treating their PA with a variety of drugs (I'm one using MTX), you will find support, suggestions and at least folks that will listen. I too hated the thought (still do) of taking drugs, sometimes lots, for the rest of my life. But, I was hardly able to walk, each day was filled with pain, so I gave in. Today, MTX allows me to do most anything I want. I rarely have pain and no swelling. I know there are lots of possible side effects and possible concerns about long term use, but I figured I had to take those chances because my life was only barely worth living with all the pain I had. There are some non-drug ways of attempting to deal with PA. I've read here of lo carb diets, avoiding nightshades (tomatoes & such) as well as nutritional supplements like Vitamin C. I assume that these alternatives will work well for some people and not at all for others, but that is also the case with many of the drugs like MTX, Enbrel, Humira. I wish you well. I know this disease is tough to answer to. But, you have to do what feels right for you. I hope you find something that helps. Stay Well, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:14:02 -0000, david <david@...> wrote: > > > Hi Pete, > This IS the place for you to be in most ways. > Although many folks here are treating their PA with a variety of > drugs (I'm one using MTX), you will find support, suggestions and at > least folks that will listen. I too hated the thought (still do) of > taking drugs, sometimes lots, for the rest of my life. But, I was > hardly able to walk, each day was filled with pain, so I gave in. > Today, MTX allows me to do most anything I want. I rarely have pain > and no swelling. I know there are lots of possible side effects and > possible concerns about long term use, but I figured I had to take > those chances because my life was only barely worth living with all > the pain I had. There are some non-drug ways of attempting to deal > with PA. I've read here of lo carb diets, avoiding nightshades > (tomatoes & such) as well as nutritional supplements like Vitamin C. > I assume that these alternatives will work well for some people and > not at all for others, but that is also the case with many of the > drugs like MTX, Enbrel, Humira. > > I wish you well. I know this disease is tough to answer to. > But, you have to do what feels right for you. I hope you find > something that helps. > > Stay Well, > Thanks , There is a bit of swelling and of course the pain. I think I would rather deal with all the side effects then to deal with the drug issues. I would love to find some no-drug things to do, that might help....like the ones you stated. I am certainly reading and listening though. Thanks to all that have communicated with me regarding this. I probably should find a Dr to check in with, seeing it has been so long. -- Pete http://milneweb.com http://nomorevirus.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Hi Pete, Welcome to the group. I'm a bit late with it but, anyway........ I guess all you can do is weigh up all info you can get on this disease, see what the different avenues and scenarios are and make what you feel is the best decision for you. I hope whatever you decide to do works for you. Good luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Hi Pete, I am new at this site also..actually this is the first time I have responded to any emails.. I am 28 years old and was first diagnosed about 4 years ago..I grew up on a farm and have always lived a very active life, now it seems like I have to decide if the activity is worth the next few days with extra soreness. I started taking MTX injections and continued for the first 3 years, and decided to stop because I was having terrible side effects. I am treating my PA with accupunture right now and trying to change my diet to decrease the chemicals that I put in my body. I have no idea if I am risking the future of my body this way, but I am not convinced that the Dr's know what their doing to us with all the stuff they prescribe. Have you tried any alternative treatments?? If you have I would love some advice..It would be great to be in contact with someone that is not on all the medications. Kristi Pete <pmilne@...> wrote: Hi All, I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for me though. I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle, neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a week. I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past nights. I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so. Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings, I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved. You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o) Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that has a physical job and is dealing with this? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:59:38 -0800 (PST), Kristi <kpookie76@...> wrote: > > > Hi Pete, > > I am new at this site also..actually this is the first time I have responded to any emails.. I am 28 years old and was first diagnosed about 4 years ago..I grew up on a farm and have always lived a very active life, now it seems like I have to decide if the activity is worth the next few days with extra soreness. I started taking MTX injections and continued for the first 3 years, and decided to stop because I was having terrible side effects. I am treating my PA with accupunture right now and trying to change my diet to decrease the chemicals that I put in my body. I have no idea if I am risking the future of my body this way, but I am not convinced that the Dr's know what their doing to us with all the stuff they prescribe. Have you tried any alternative treatments?? If you have I would love some advice..It would be great to be in contact with someone that is not on all the medications. > Kristi Hey Kristi, No meds here but for a couple ibuprofen now and again. I havent tried any alternatives either. This past few weeks have been extremely physical for me, that time of the year ya know. The pain level is prety intense but so long as I am going, I am fine. When I stop, I setup and fall apart. Same routine everyday but you know what.....God is good! I can accept this for what it is. I refuse to let it bother me or stop me. As you read, I also refuse the drugs. I had half a thought to find a Rhuemy to go and get a checkup. The criteria I have for picking one is this: I want to speak with the Dr before I visit and see what his knowledge is and/or game plan. So, you guessed it, I havent gone yet because I cant get a Dr to talk to me. Seems some Drs priorities must be a little different than I think a Drs should be. I would be curious to see how the past 15 or so years since my last visit, have treated me. -- Pete http://milneweb.com http://nomorevirus.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Thanks for the reponse...it would be interesting to see what the Dr. says after 15 years..You are so correct to say God is good!!!! That is something I need to remember on my real bad days!!!! Thanks again! Pete <pmilne@...> wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:59:38 -0800 (PST), Kristi <kpookie76@...> wrote: > > > Hi Pete, > > I am new at this site also..actually this is the first time I have responded to any emails.. I am 28 years old and was first diagnosed about 4 years ago..I grew up on a farm and have always lived a very active life, now it seems like I have to decide if the activity is worth the next few days with extra soreness. I started taking MTX injections and continued for the first 3 years, and decided to stop because I was having terrible side effects. I am treating my PA with accupunture right now and trying to change my diet to decrease the chemicals that I put in my body. I have no idea if I am risking the future of my body this way, but I am not convinced that the Dr's know what their doing to us with all the stuff they prescribe. Have you tried any alternative treatments?? If you have I would love some advice..It would be great to be in contact with someone that is not on all the medications. > Kristi Hey Kristi, No meds here but for a couple ibuprofen now and again. I havent tried any alternatives either. This past few weeks have been extremely physical for me, that time of the year ya know. The pain level is prety intense but so long as I am going, I am fine. When I stop, I setup and fall apart. Same routine everyday but you know what.....God is good! I can accept this for what it is. I refuse to let it bother me or stop me. As you read, I also refuse the drugs. I had half a thought to find a Rhuemy to go and get a checkup. The criteria I have for picking one is this: I want to speak with the Dr before I visit and see what his knowledge is and/or game plan. So, you guessed it, I havent gone yet because I cant get a Dr to talk to me. Seems some Drs priorities must be a little different than I think a Drs should be. I would be curious to see how the past 15 or so years since my last visit, have treated me. -- Pete http://milneweb.com http://nomorevirus.com Please visit our Psoriatic Arthritis Group's informational web page at: http://www.wpunj.edu/pa/ -- created and edited by list member aka(raharris@...). Also,in August 2001,list member Jack aka Cornishpro@... began to conduct extensive research which he publishes as the " Psoriatic Arthritis Research Newsletter " , monthly in our email and digest format. Many thanks to Jack. Back issues of the newsletter are stored on our PA webpage as well as the archives of the list. Don't forget that the list archives comprise a tremendous amount of information (Over three years of messages and answers).Feel free to browse them at your convenience. LET'S HEAR FROM SOME OF YOU LURKERS out there! If you have a comment or question, chances are there is a person who has been around a while who can help you out with AT LEAST an educated guess for an answer! If not,we can steer you in the right direction with a good website to go to, Blessings and Peace, Atwood-Stack, Founder Alan , Web & List Editor Jack , Newsletter Editor Pat Bias, List Editor Ron Dotson, List Editor Orin, List Editor Kathy F., List Editor and any others who help in any way (thank you!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had > expected or hoped for. > What changes had you hoped for that have not come to pass? > I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes > that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on > this topic. > > What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s. > Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of > Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range. > As you know by now, some men's skin is not permeable enough to make transdermal preparations practical. Since Androgel is boosting your levels effectively, that doesn't seem to be a dispositive factor for you. Injections and AG each have their strengths & weaknesses. I made a choice based upon personal preference. What would you hope to achieve by changing to injections? Welcome, Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 Hey - welcome to the group. One of the first things I learned from this group is - its not about the number but how you feel. We are all so different and respond differently that you just have to experiment and find what works best for you. If for example you want to " beef up " more, then 500-600 on T will not do the trick. If you only want to feel well and respond sexually, then the number is very individualized. Gels will give you a more consistent dose but other options may be required to get higher. I'm sure smearing on 3 packets of androgel a day is challenging. I tried the gel but didn't absorb well so currently do shots. Arkansas taliesin1958 <john530@...> wrote: Hello all, I've spent the last day catching up on most of the messages posted since the beginning of this Group. Quite interesting and also oddly supporting; knowing that there are so many other men out there in similar circumstances. To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic male. My physician has, so far, been unable to determine the cause. I suspect that it developed as a child--negligible secondary sexual characteristics, slight body development, you all know the drill... I had suspected as far back as high school that something was amiss, but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll kick in in a few years... " When I hit 34 I went to an endocrinologist who said that my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed HRT because of the risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was becoming increasingly more depressed over the situation. I heard about a test trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted at s Hopkins University, went in for a check up, and discovered that my T level was " 124 " . The people running the study were frankly shocked that the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on HRT, and I've been on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 years. I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had expected or hoped for. I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on this topic. What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s. Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 Hello and welcome aboard! Lets start with the Androgel issue. You say you are spreading on two and a half packets a day, that is the equivilent of 12.5mg applied to your skin, the issue is whether all of the 12.5mg of T is getting into your body. Injections will definately get in all into your body, keep that in mind when you weigh injections vs skin spreadons. You T level of the Androgel is now within range, but how are you doing? Are you any hairier, is your lidibo better/higher, how do you feel otherwise as in general strength, energy level? Do you have health insurance to pay for the Androgel and you pay only a copay? Androgel is by far the most expensive form of TRT as it comes from a big drug company that has to build in advertising and a lot of profit. Consider that only 1% of what you spread on is actually Testosterone, a lot of slathering and drying and wasted time to get only 1% out of it. Good compounding pharmacies make up a jar of a gel that is 10% testosterone, and you only need a little over a quarter teaspoon to spread on each day to get the same amount of T, and a jar costs about $75 for a couple months worth, compare that to how much Androgel costs, wow! Injections are by far the cheapest and often the most effective way to get T into you. I have been self injecting depotestosterone for over 34 years with no ill effects, no bone density loss, no prostate problems. If you can take a shot at answering some of my above questions, maybe we can help you out with some more information. best norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 Hello... and welcome aboard. Assuming those are Total T levels that you have produced there, what " normal range " of values does your regular lab use? Also would be helpful to know what your Free T levels are (and your lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol) levels (and - yep - your lab's normal ranges). Free T is generally a better indicator of positive T levels for purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total T.... but it ends up being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to know " how much is your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures seems to dominate. Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the figures that you are showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 - 1000) should be sufficient for TRT purposes in general. However.... You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes symptoms just like low T). You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a still higher dosing to feel the " expected " results (you never specified, but are you experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it simply that this hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you imagined?). But dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 grams per day level... thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product (see more below)? As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be improperly worded. AG appears to have been giving transdermal gels a black-eye in that they don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the skin barrier and into the dermal layers and then leached into the blood as they claim (e-mail me if you want a more detailed explanantion)... AND they (AG) have had some quality control issues with many users - including yours truly - reporting that opened packets were only 1/2 full, only 1/3 full... or even empty. Conversely Testim has not only received higher marks from users of the Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one study that confirms the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to AG.... See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5 QUOTE: Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single dose (50 mg testosterone) of each formulation seven days apart. C(max) estimates for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free testosterone were greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the application of Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24) estimates for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free testosterone were greater (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the application of Testim compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for C(max) and AUC(0-24) were not wholly contained within the bioequivalence limits for testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and AndroGel are not bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum levels and greater bioavailability than AndroGel. END QUOTE So you might want to give Testim a try (not only more effective for same dosings - in fact you might want to start out with 10 grams and see where you're at with that if you try Testim). That said, you'll find a number of individuals who use IM shots and are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an either or type of approach. With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat, thick skin, etc.) transdermal gels just might not work for you. Personally I am not a fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone in the IM shots isn't quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone to the degree as found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in other words, the T is not in an synthetic salted ester form such as propionate, enanthate or undecanoate)... but then that's my personal opinion. I am in a situation where I have a number of other precription medications that I have to take for other related conditions and if I can reduce a pharmaceutical version by just even one item, well, I'll take it! Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better ideas if we have those other levels made available. And if you have not obtained tests of those levels (quite a good chance with who you have had to deal with so far), then you have a good idea of some additional tests that you need to ask for.... but if that's the case, then there's probably several more tests that it would be a good idea to ask for..... Larry > Hello all, > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the messages posted > since the beginning of this Group. Quite interesting and also oddly > supporting; knowing that there are so many other men out there in > similar circumstances. > > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic male. My > physician has, so far, been unable to determine the cause. I suspect > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary sexual > characteristics, slight body development, you all know the drill... > > I had suspected as far back as high school that something was amiss, > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll kick in in a few > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an endocrinologist who said that > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed HRT because of the > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was becoming > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I heard about a test > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted at s Hopkins > University, went in for a check up, and discovered that my T level > was " 124 " . The people running the study were frankly shocked that > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on HRT, and I've been > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 years. > > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had > expected or hoped for. > > I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes > that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on > this topic. > > What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s. > Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of > Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range. > > Best, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 Some VG points made here! And also one area that I have been meaning to address for a while. I often see where compounded T cream (and also IM shots often) are offerred as a " cost effective option' " . While that is clearly true in those cases where one does not have insurance (or has very bad insurance?), cost factors do not have as much - if any - impact on those with good insurance. In fact, in my case, compounded T cream will cost me considerably more than one of the commercial transdermal gels. With my co-pay, a year's supply of AG(no matter what the daily dosage) will cost me $120.00. A year's supply of Testim (which has a lower co-pay due to lower overall cost!) will cost me $80.00... And against that is the compounded T cream that's going to cost me $450 (at Norton's listed rate). Now I have to admit that IM shots are even lower than that, with annual cost (co-pay) totalling only $60 a year... plus cost of syringes which I have no idea about, so that might bring it up to same-same cost as with Testim??? So I wonder if a lot of members are also in that same situation where their insurance is simply " so good " (choke, choke, choke... since you're paying for it up front anyway) that using a commercial brand gel is simply more cost effective than using a compounded cream T (which could be solved if most insurance companies would pay for compound T cream products, but that's not very likely).... Also, I had an actual opportunity last week to speak with a rep from AG and laid out a lot of " consumer complaints " that exist with their product. Aside from their own quality control problems and that they apparently are not deliverying as much T across skin barrier and into bloodstream as they claim, I also spoke at length about the general problems with the " slathering " gobs of gel, drying times, slowness of completely crossing skin barrier (so having problems with the compound rubbing off on clothes, transference concerns, etc), etc. I pointed out that one of the problems simply exists with the " weakness " of the product. Only 1% strength. He felt that they were limited to that by law - until I pointed out that compounded T creams are made up in all kinds of strength levels, 2%, 5%, 10%, etc. and (you could tell) it hit him like a bomb going off. He thought for a moment and said " You're right. So why do we make such a weak product? " I pointed out that if they simpy made it in a 2% strength solution - and did nothing else - that they would cut in half how much gel one has to slather over their body (which would also reduce area covered and reduce drying times). A 50 mg dose of T would now be contained in a 2.5 gram packet , etc. Larry > Hello and welcome aboard! > Lets start with the Androgel issue. You say you are spreading on two > and a half packets a day, that is the equivilent of 12.5mg applied to > your skin, the issue is whether all of the 12.5mg of T is getting > into your body. Injections will definately get in all into your > body, keep that in mind when you weigh injections vs skin spreadons. > You T level of the Androgel is now within range, but how are you > doing? Are you any hairier, is your lidibo better/higher, how do you > feel otherwise as in general strength, energy level? Do you have > health insurance to pay for the Androgel and you pay only a copay? > Androgel is by far the most expensive form of TRT as it comes from a > big drug company that has to build in advertising and a lot of > profit. Consider that only 1% of what you spread on is actually > Testosterone, a lot of slathering and drying and wasted time to get > only 1% out of it. Good compounding pharmacies make up a jar of a > gel that is 10% testosterone, and you only need a little over a > quarter teaspoon to spread on each day to get the same amount of T, > and a jar costs about $75 for a couple months worth, compare that to > how much Androgel costs, wow! Injections are by far the cheapest and > often the most effective way to get T into you. > I have been self injecting depotestosterone for over 34 years with no > ill effects, no bone density loss, no prostate problems. If you can > take a shot at answering some of my above questions, maybe we can > help you out with some more information. > best > norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 I'll answer Dan, Norton, Larry and Brad at once, so as to save space, and reduce duplication. First, thanks for the insight and quick responses. My recent bone density scan came up fine, libido is good, but then,it was not really bad before, just heightened now. My initial reasons for seeking answers as a teen were lack of secondary sexual characteristics, (beard, chest hair, etc..) I come from a profoundly hirsute family, both sides, foor several generations back. Both of my brothers have full facial, chest, body hair coverage, my younger brother sprouts a virtual facial forest. Conceded and stipulated, that these are primarily aesthetic concerns and if must be accepted if my underlying physical health is sound. The bother of the gels is a minor issue. If my new endocrinologist wants to try injections--or some other cream version--I'm more than willing. I don't have my Free-T numbers available, my current GP just calls me a few days after each blood test to tell me whether I'm " high, low or fine. " She gives very little in the way of details. I've tried to probe, and she invariably says not to worry and says she has another patient waiting. This is one of the other reasons I changing doctors. I gather from each of your responses that you're telling me not to expect too much in the way of physical change, even if the method I eventually settle on is the optimum one for my metabolism, skin, and the rest. I recognize that it sounds insignificant, and I'm not expressing myself well, but I'd love to look something like the man that I feel like. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 > > My initial reasons for seeking answers as a teen were lack of > secondary sexual characteristics, (beard, chest hair, etc..) I come > from a profoundly hirsute family, both sides, foor several > generations back. Both of my brothers have full facial, chest, body > hair coverage, my younger brother sprouts a virtual facial forest. > Conceded and stipulated, that these are primarily aesthetic concerns > and if must be accepted if my underlying physical health is sound. > > The bother of the gels is a minor issue. If my new endocrinologist > wants to try injections--or some other cream version--I'm more than > willing. > Given your objectives, I'd stick with one of the transdermal preparations. They give a good boost to DHT levels which may help with the body hair issue. You can consider changing the dose or the formulation of course. Over several years, my body hair has increased slowly but steadily. > I don't have my Free-T numbers available, my current GP just calls me > a few days after each blood test to tell me whether I'm " high, low or > fine. " She gives very little in the way of details. I've tried to > probe, and she invariably says not to worry and says she has another > patient waiting. This is one of the other reasons I changing doctors. Just request a copy of your medical records and read the answer for yourself. They can't withhold the records from you although they may charge a fee for the copying. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Hey IRS, Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have been on it for over 18 months and still have an T level of just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having orgasm and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been reading here it could be the absorption factor doesn't seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing my doctor next month and want to either try Testim or goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this? Guiman --- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: > Hello... and welcome aboard. > > Assuming those are Total T levels that you have > produced there, what > " normal range " of values does your regular lab use? > > Also would be helpful to know what your Free T > levels are (and your > lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol) > levels (and - yep - > your lab's normal ranges). > > Free T is generally a better indicator of positive T > levels for > purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total T.... > but it ends up > being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to > know " how much is > your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures > seems to dominate. > > Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the > figures that you are > showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 - > 1000) should be > sufficient for TRT purposes in general. > > However.... > > You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes > symptoms just like > low T). > > You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a still > higher dosing to > feel the " expected " results (you never specified, > but are you > experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it > simply that this > hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you > imagined?). But > dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 grams > per day level... > thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product (see > more below)? > > As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be > improperly worded. AG > appears to have been giving transdermal gels a > black-eye in that they > don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the > skin barrier and > into the dermal layers and then leached into the > blood as they claim > (e-mail me if you want a more detailed > explanantion)... AND they (AG) > have had some quality control issues with many users > - including yours > truly - reporting that opened packets were only 1/2 > full, only 1/3 > full... or even empty. > > Conversely Testim has not only received higher marks > from users of the > Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one > study that confirms > the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to > AG.... > > See: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5 > QUOTE: > Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single > dose (50 mg > testosterone) of each formulation seven days apart. > C(max) estimates > for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free > testosterone were > greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the > application of > Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24) > estimates for total > testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free > testosterone were greater > (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the > application of Testim > compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for > C(max) and AUC(0-24) > were not wholly contained within the bioequivalence > limits for > testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and > AndroGel are not > bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum > levels and greater > bioavailability than AndroGel. > END QUOTE > > So you might want to give Testim a try (not only > more effective for > same dosings - in fact you might want to start out > with 10 grams and > see where you're at with that if you try Testim). > > That said, you'll find a number of individuals who > use IM shots and > are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an either > or type of approach. > With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat, > thick skin, etc.) > transdermal gels just might not work for you. > Personally I am not a > fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone in > the IM shots isn't > quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone to > the degree as > found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in > other words, the T is > not in an synthetic salted ester form such as > propionate, enanthate or > undecanoate)... but then that's my personal > opinion. I am in a > situation where I have a number of other precription > medications that > I have to take for other related conditions and if I > can reduce a > pharmaceutical version by just even one item, well, > I'll take it! > > Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better > ideas if we have > those other levels made available. > > And if you have not obtained tests of those levels > (quite a good > chance with who you have had to deal with so far), > then you have a > good idea of some additional tests that you need to > ask for.... but > if that's the case, then there's probably several > more tests that it > would be a good idea to ask for..... > > Larry > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the > messages posted > > since the beginning of this Group. Quite > interesting and also oddly > > supporting; knowing that there are so many other > men out there in > > similar circumstances. > > > > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic > male. My > > physician has, so far, been unable to determine > the cause. I suspect > > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary > sexual > > characteristics, slight body development, you all > know the drill... > > > > I had suspected as far back as high school that > something was amiss, > > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll > kick in in a few > > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an > endocrinologist who said that > > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed > HRT because of the > > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was > becoming > > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I > heard about a test > > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted > at s Hopkins > > University, went in for a check up, and discovered > that my T level > > was " 124 " . The people running the study were > frankly shocked that > > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on > HRT, and I've been > > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 > years. > > > > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as > pronounced as I had > > expected or hoped for. > > > > I've made an appointment with an excellent > endocrinologist, in hopes > > that he might have more informed answers; frankly, > my GP is a nice > > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out > of her depth on > === message truncated === test'; " > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 your numbers are to low for that much Androgel. You said you are doing a total of 12.5 grams of Androgel. Your over the Max dose and I have to say that when I tried that my E2 Estradiol when nuts. Have you had this tested. If your Estradiol is high it takes up the space in you cells and the Testosterone has not where to go. I tried the gels both Andorgel and Testim and my levels were not high enough plus the gels did nothing for my joints and muscles I started getting a lot of pain using them. I posted this and norton got back to me telling me he had the same problems and sent back on shots and his pain stopped. So I did the same. You need your levels up in the upper 1/3 of the labs range for both Total and Free T. for a young man. When I started back on shots I did 100 mgs. every week my levels came back at 650 still to low so my Dr. upped the shots to 150 mgs. and in 4 weeks my levels were still to low. So I talked my Dr. into adding Hcg. like Dr. does. I started on 500 IU's 3 times a week MWF and after my 15th. shot my blood test came back up good 1135 total T. So now after 21 yrs. of being on TRT and I am primary my Testis are making T from the Hcg. I am feeling the best I have every felt in 21 yrs. Get a copy of your blood test and post them with the range. If you have not had your E2 tested get it done you just may get your levels up 200 to 300 more points doing this. I use Indolplex/DIM to keep my E2 down. http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html Also read message # 14939 It is what Dr. does for his men. It is called " My Dr.'s Current Best Thoughts On TRT " This I feel is why I am doing go good. Phil taliesin1958 <john530@...> wrote:Hello all, I've spent the last day catching up on most of the messages posted since the beginning of this Group. Quite interesting and also oddly supporting; knowing that there are so many other men out there in similar circumstances. To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic male. My physician has, so far, been unable to determine the cause. I suspect that it developed as a child--negligible secondary sexual characteristics, slight body development, you all know the drill... I had suspected as far back as high school that something was amiss, but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll kick in in a few years... " When I hit 34 I went to an endocrinologist who said that my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed HRT because of the risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was becoming increasingly more depressed over the situation. I heard about a test trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted at s Hopkins University, went in for a check up, and discovered that my T level was " 124 " . The people running the study were frankly shocked that the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on HRT, and I've been on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 years. I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had expected or hoped for. I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on this topic. What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s. Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Get your E2 Estradiol tested if your to high this can cause your levels to not go up and give you orgasm problems. Phil Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote: Hey IRS, Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have been on it for over 18 months and still have an T level of just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having orgasm and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been reading here it could be the absorption factor doesn't seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing my doctor next month and want to either try Testim or goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this? Guiman --- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: > Hello... and welcome aboard. > > Assuming those are Total T levels that you have > produced there, what > " normal range " of values does your regular lab use? > > Also would be helpful to know what your Free T > levels are (and your > lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol) > levels (and - yep - > your lab's normal ranges). > > Free T is generally a better indicator of positive T > levels for > purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total T.... > but it ends up > being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to > know " how much is > your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures > seems to dominate. > > Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the > figures that you are > showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 - > 1000) should be > sufficient for TRT purposes in general. > > However.... > > You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes > symptoms just like > low T). > > You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a still > higher dosing to > feel the " expected " results (you never specified, > but are you > experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it > simply that this > hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you > imagined?). But > dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 grams > per day level... > thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product (see > more below)? > > As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be > improperly worded. AG > appears to have been giving transdermal gels a > black-eye in that they > don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the > skin barrier and > into the dermal layers and then leached into the > blood as they claim > (e-mail me if you want a more detailed > explanantion)... AND they (AG) > have had some quality control issues with many users > - including yours > truly - reporting that opened packets were only 1/2 > full, only 1/3 > full... or even empty. > > Conversely Testim has not only received higher marks > from users of the > Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one > study that confirms > the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to > AG.... > > See: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5 > QUOTE: > Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single > dose (50 mg > testosterone) of each formulation seven days apart. > C(max) estimates > for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free > testosterone were > greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the > application of > Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24) > estimates for total > testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free > testosterone were greater > (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the > application of Testim > compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for > C(max) and AUC(0-24) > were not wholly contained within the bioequivalence > limits for > testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and > AndroGel are not > bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum > levels and greater > bioavailability than AndroGel. > END QUOTE > > So you might want to give Testim a try (not only > more effective for > same dosings - in fact you might want to start out > with 10 grams and > see where you're at with that if you try Testim). > > That said, you'll find a number of individuals who > use IM shots and > are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an either > or type of approach. > With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat, > thick skin, etc.) > transdermal gels just might not work for you. > Personally I am not a > fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone in > the IM shots isn't > quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone to > the degree as > found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in > other words, the T is > not in an synthetic salted ester form such as > propionate, enanthate or > undecanoate)... but then that's my personal > opinion. I am in a > situation where I have a number of other precription > medications that > I have to take for other related conditions and if I > can reduce a > pharmaceutical version by just even one item, well, > I'll take it! > > Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better > ideas if we have > those other levels made available. > > And if you have not obtained tests of those levels > (quite a good > chance with who you have had to deal with so far), > then you have a > good idea of some additional tests that you need to > ask for.... but > if that's the case, then there's probably several > more tests that it > would be a good idea to ask for..... > > Larry > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the > messages posted > > since the beginning of this Group. Quite > interesting and also oddly > > supporting; knowing that there are so many other > men out there in > > similar circumstances. > > > > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic > male. My > > physician has, so far, been unable to determine > the cause. I suspect > > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary > sexual > > characteristics, slight body development, you all > know the drill... > > > > I had suspected as far back as high school that > something was amiss, > > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll > kick in in a few > > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an > endocrinologist who said that > > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed > HRT because of the > > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was > becoming > > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I > heard about a test > > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted > at s Hopkins > > University, went in for a check up, and discovered > that my T level > > was " 124 " . The people running the study were > frankly shocked that > > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on > HRT, and I've been > > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 > years. > > > > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as > pronounced as I had > > expected or hoped for. > > > > I've made an appointment with an excellent > endocrinologist, in hopes > > that he might have more informed answers; frankly, > my GP is a nice > > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out > of her depth on > === message truncated === test'; " > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Hey Phil, I did have my E2 tested and Prolactin levels and they camE back with 26(e2) and 36(Prolactin). My doctor said both levels are within normal ranges for Quest labs. I will be getting another blood test for my next visit, besides retesting E2, anything else I should be asking ? Thanks, guy --- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: > Get your E2 Estradiol tested if your to high this > can cause your levels to not go up and give you > orgasm problems. > Phil > > Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote: > Hey IRS, > > Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have > been > on it for over 18 months and still have an T level > of > just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having > orgasm > and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been > reading here it could be the absorption factor > doesn't > seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a > higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing > my doctor next month and want to either try Testim > or > goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this? > > Guiman > > --- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: > > > Hello... and welcome aboard. > > > > Assuming those are Total T levels that you have > > produced there, what > > " normal range " of values does your regular lab > use? > > > > Also would be helpful to know what your Free T > > levels are (and your > > lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol) > > levels (and - yep - > > your lab's normal ranges). > > > > Free T is generally a better indicator of positive > T > > levels for > > purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total > T.... > > but it ends up > > being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to > > know " how much is > > your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures > > seems to dominate. > > > > Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the > > figures that you are > > showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 - > > 1000) should be > > sufficient for TRT purposes in general. > > > > However.... > > > > You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes > > symptoms just like > > low T). > > > > You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a > still > > higher dosing to > > feel the " expected " results (you never specified, > > but are you > > experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it > > simply that this > > hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you > > imagined?). But > > dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 > grams > > per day level... > > thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product > (see > > more below)? > > > > As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be > > improperly worded. AG > > appears to have been giving transdermal gels a > > black-eye in that they > > don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the > > skin barrier and > > into the dermal layers and then leached into the > > blood as they claim > > (e-mail me if you want a more detailed > > explanantion)... AND they (AG) > > have had some quality control issues with many > users > > - including yours > > truly - reporting that opened packets were only > 1/2 > > full, only 1/3 > > full... or even empty. > > > > Conversely Testim has not only received higher > marks > > from users of the > > Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one > > study that confirms > > the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to > > AG.... > > > > See: > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5 > > QUOTE: > > Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single > > dose (50 mg > > testosterone) of each formulation seven days > apart. > > C(max) estimates > > for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and > free > > testosterone were > > greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following > the > > application of > > Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24) > > estimates for total > > testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free > > testosterone were greater > > (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the > > application of Testim > > compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for > > C(max) and AUC(0-24) > > were not wholly contained within the > bioequivalence > > limits for > > testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and > > AndroGel are not > > bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum > > levels and greater > > bioavailability than AndroGel. > > END QUOTE > > > > So you might want to give Testim a try (not only > > more effective for > > same dosings - in fact you might want to start out > > with 10 grams and > > see where you're at with that if you try Testim). > > > > That said, you'll find a number of individuals who > > use IM shots and > > are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an > either > > or type of approach. > > With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat, > > thick skin, etc.) > > transdermal gels just might not work for you. > > Personally I am not a > > fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone > in > > the IM shots isn't > > quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone > to > > the degree as > > found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in > > other words, the T is > > not in an synthetic salted ester form such as > > propionate, enanthate or > > undecanoate)... but then that's my personal > > opinion. I am in a > > situation where I have a number of other > precription > > medications that > > I have to take for other related conditions and if > I > > can reduce a > > pharmaceutical version by just even one item, > well, > > I'll take it! > > > > Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better > > ideas if we have > > those other levels made available. > > > > And if you have not obtained tests of those levels > > (quite a good > > chance with who you have had to deal with so far), > > then you have a > > good idea of some additional tests that you need > to > > ask for.... but > > if that's the case, then there's probably several > > more tests that it > > would be a good idea to ask for..... > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of > the > === message truncated === test'; " > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Yes as a test ask her to give you a shot of Depo testosterone say 100 mgs and then do the test in 7 days to see if you levels go up. You may need to switch to shots the gels don't seam to be working for you. If you can get your levels up on the upper 1/3 of the range for a young man you will see a big difference in how you feel and look in time. If the shot makes you feel dam good this is a sine you need to switch. Phil Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote: Hey Phil, I did have my E2 tested and Prolactin levels and they camE back with 26(e2) and 36(Prolactin). My doctor said both levels are within normal ranges for Quest labs. I will be getting another blood test for my next visit, besides retesting E2, anything else I should be asking ? Thanks, guy --- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: > Get your E2 Estradiol tested if your to high this > can cause your levels to not go up and give you > orgasm problems. > Phil > > Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote: > Hey IRS, > > Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have > been > on it for over 18 months and still have an T level > of > just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having > orgasm > and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been > reading here it could be the absorption factor > doesn't > seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a > higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing > my doctor next month and want to either try Testim > or > goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this? > > Guiman > > --- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote: > > > Hello... and welcome aboard. > > > > Assuming those are Total T levels that you have > > produced there, what > > " normal range " of values does your regular lab > use? > > > > Also would be helpful to know what your Free T > > levels are (and your > > lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol) > > levels (and - yep - > > your lab's normal ranges). > > > > Free T is generally a better indicator of positive > T > > levels for > > purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total > T.... > > but it ends up > > being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to > > know " how much is > > your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures > > seems to dominate. > > > > Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the > > figures that you are > > showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 - > > 1000) should be > > sufficient for TRT purposes in general. > > > > However.... > > > > You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes > > symptoms just like > > low T). > > > > You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a > still > > higher dosing to > > feel the " expected " results (you never specified, > > but are you > > experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it > > simply that this > > hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you > > imagined?). But > > dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 > grams > > per day level... > > thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product > (see > > more below)? > > > > As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be > > improperly worded. AG > > appears to have been giving transdermal gels a > > black-eye in that they > > don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the > > skin barrier and > > into the dermal layers and then leached into the > > blood as they claim > > (e-mail me if you want a more detailed > > explanantion)... AND they (AG) > > have had some quality control issues with many > users > > - including yours > > truly - reporting that opened packets were only > 1/2 > > full, only 1/3 > > full... or even empty. > > > > Conversely Testim has not only received higher > marks > > from users of the > > Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one > > study that confirms > > the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to > > AG.... > > > > See: > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\ ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5 > > QUOTE: > > Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single > > dose (50 mg > > testosterone) of each formulation seven days > apart. > > C(max) estimates > > for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and > free > > testosterone were > > greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following > the > > application of > > Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24) > > estimates for total > > testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free > > testosterone were greater > > (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the > > application of Testim > > compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for > > C(max) and AUC(0-24) > > were not wholly contained within the > bioequivalence > > limits for > > testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and > > AndroGel are not > > bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum > > levels and greater > > bioavailability than AndroGel. > > END QUOTE > > > > So you might want to give Testim a try (not only > > more effective for > > same dosings - in fact you might want to start out > > with 10 grams and > > see where you're at with that if you try Testim). > > > > That said, you'll find a number of individuals who > > use IM shots and > > are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an > either > > or type of approach. > > With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat, > > thick skin, etc.) > > transdermal gels just might not work for you. > > Personally I am not a > > fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone > in > > the IM shots isn't > > quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone > to > > the degree as > > found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in > > other words, the T is > > not in an synthetic salted ester form such as > > propionate, enanthate or > > undecanoate)... but then that's my personal > > opinion. I am in a > > situation where I have a number of other > precription > > medications that > > I have to take for other related conditions and if > I > > can reduce a > > pharmaceutical version by just even one item, > well, > > I'll take it! > > > > Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better > > ideas if we have > > those other levels made available. > > > > And if you have not obtained tests of those levels > > (quite a good > > chance with who you have had to deal with so far), > > then you have a > > good idea of some additional tests that you need > to > > ask for.... but > > if that's the case, then there's probably several > > more tests that it > > would be a good idea to ask for..... > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of > the > === message truncated === test'; " > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Ditto to what Brad just said. And specifically with staying with the transdermals. (note that in the test info that I provided Testim also modestly increased DHT levels compared to AG) And ask for specific tests (I believe you mentioned something about seeing a new doc for TRT, possibly an Endo?). At a minimum (seeing as how your health is apparently sound otherwise), ask for Total T (testosterone), Free T, Total E (estrogens) and E2 (estradiol)... and in your case since you're looking at DHT levels also, I'd throw in DHT levels. And then specifically request a copy of the test results (which should show not only the value (i.e. 570), but also the value's normal range (i.e., 220 - 1000). It helps if you mention to the doctor that you maintain copies of all your medical records (or are starting to) in case you have to see another doctor or have some kind of an emergency that you have records immediately available. Larry > > > > > My initial reasons for seeking answers as a teen were lack of > > secondary sexual characteristics, (beard, chest hair, etc..) I come > > from a profoundly hirsute family, both sides, foor several > > generations back. Both of my brothers have full facial, chest, body > > hair coverage, my younger brother sprouts a virtual facial forest. > > Conceded and stipulated, that these are primarily aesthetic concerns > > and if must be accepted if my underlying physical health is sound. > > > > The bother of the gels is a minor issue. If my new endocrinologist > > wants to try injections--or some other cream version--I'm more than > > willing. > > > > Given your objectives, I'd stick with one of the transdermal > preparations. They give a good boost to DHT levels which may help > with the body hair issue. You can consider changing the dose or the > formulation of course. Over several years, my body hair has increased > slowly but steadily. > > > > I don't have my Free-T numbers available, my current GP just calls me > > a few days after each blood test to tell me whether I'm " high, low or > > fine. " She gives very little in the way of details. I've tried to > > probe, and she invariably says not to worry and says she has another > > patient waiting. This is one of the other reasons I changing doctors. > > Just request a copy of your medical records and read the answer for > yourself. They can't withhold the records from you although they may > charge a fee for the copying. > > Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Larry- I understand your apprehension about putting 'synthetic' drugs in your body, which I share. I was curious too because we are putting these substances in the body for the rest of a lifetime so it is wise to understand the toxicity of these substances. From what I have read, the esthers of testosterone are simple fatty acids that are very easily broken down to water and CO2 - very quickly once they are in the bloodstream. The human body is pretty good at this metabolic pathway especially since these chemicals are already in many of the foods we eat- and in much larger quantities than found in weekly TRT shots. This is a whole lot easier to accept than some of the SSRI's and MAOI's that I once allowed into my cerebrum. Hope that helps. Dano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 5 grams AG from July thru Sept of 2004. 7.5 grams from end of September until mid June of 2005. 10 grams for last month (awaiting curret Total T and Free T test results... and also to hear back from doc about switching over to Testim). Should find out what our Free T level is. That's actually the more important level just in that you could have " okay " total T and lousy free T (which is the bioavailable version that isn't bound up). E levels, especially E2 levels maybe too high (that will kill libido). While " upping " the Total T levels might end up being " the " answer, you have other test results needed to determine whether that's your base problem or not. Continuing to up Total T levels when you actually have elevated E2 will only make the problem worse. Larry > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the > > messages posted > > > since the beginning of this Group. Quite > > interesting and also oddly > > > supporting; knowing that there are so many other > > men out there in > > > similar circumstances. > > > > > > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic > > male. My > > > physician has, so far, been unable to determine > > the cause. I suspect > > > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary > > sexual > > > characteristics, slight body development, you all > > know the drill... > > > > > > I had suspected as far back as high school that > > something was amiss, > > > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll > > kick in in a few > > > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an > > endocrinologist who said that > > > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed > > HRT because of the > > > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was > > becoming > > > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I > > heard about a test > > > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted > > at s Hopkins > > > University, went in for a check up, and discovered > > that my T level > > > was " 124 " . The people running the study were > > frankly shocked that > > > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on > > HRT, and I've been > > > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 > > years. > > > > > > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as > > pronounced as I had > > > expected or hoped for. > > > > > > I've made an appointment with an excellent > > endocrinologist, in hopes > > > that he might have more informed answers; frankly, > > my GP is a nice > > > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out > > of her depth on > > > === message truncated === > > > > > test'; " > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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