RE: FW: physician ownership

[Guest guest]

Again, great points and stats . As I mentioned before, someone on behalf of

the group, or any interested individual needs to compile all of these examples

in order to present a more clear case to Congress. Doug

Re: FW: physician ownership

Some interesting material on this subject is on the web site for the Missouri

Physical Therapy Association. Further information is also available from

Government Affairs Department of the American Physical Therpay Assoication

(APTA).

From the MPTA

" Both the American Medical Association (1992)(1) and the American Physical

Therapy Association strongly denounce the practice of physicians referring

patients to facilities in which they have a financial interest. Opposition to

these

situations is based on the following:

Such arrangements have a high potential for abuse:

Physician owned physical therapy practices had 43% more per patient visits

than patients referred to non-physician owned PT practices.

These referrals accounted for a 31% increase in revenue over referrals to

non-physician owned practices.(2)

Physical therapists in physician owned practices treat an average of 20

patients per day while those in non-physician owned facilities average 12

patients

per day(3).

Simple disclosure of ownership does nothing to stern the tide of physician

ownership of physical therapy facilities. In fact, between 1989 and 1992 some

physicians in the state used disclosure as a way of marketing their practice

by

telling patients " my physical therapy office is so good I invested in it

myself. " These tactics increased utilization and costs to patients, third

party

payors and taxpayers via the state Medicaid program.

Such arrangements limit access to health care and eliminate free market

values (i.e.: competition for quality, cost or access).

These arrangements allow the physician to create the demand for PT services

and then allow this same physician to position themselves to exclusively

supply

that same demand thus creating a monopoly at the expense of patients and

third party payors.

Such arrangements eliminate competition, no matter now it is structured,

conceived or concealed, it is what it is — a kickback.

Such arrangements do nothing to enhance the quality of care for the patient.

Footnotes

American Medical Association House of Delegates, Nashville, Tenn. Dec. 8,

1992.

Florida Health Care Cost Containment Board Report on Physician ownership and

joint ventures among Health Care Providers. (August 9, 1991)

Opus Communication, December, 2002 as quoted from a 1995 study run by the

enforcement arm of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services-Office of

Inspector General.

Slocum PT

GHHA

Hazleton PA

[Guest guest]

1995 STUDY!!!!!

I know I chime in a lot on the subject of POPTS.

Specifically because I direct one.

Let me give you some UP-DATED statistics from a clinic

that is currently running " real-time " .

Productivity Goal: 12 patients per 8 hour shift.

2004 average number of visits seen per evaluation:7.5

Open continuing education budget for myself and other

PT's. Meaning my physicians are paying for my

certification with NAIOMT.

Budget for Equipment: Open, show how " Their " patients

will benefit from new methods that are research based.

No set limit.

Why do I open my doors for all to see?

Because I believe that many of you on the list serve

are misinformed about POPTS. We are not a chop shop

seeing 20-30 patients a day per PT, even though I have

seen this practice with many other PT PRIVATELY owned

clinics.

This POPT was developed secondary to OVER-UTILIZATION

by PRIVATE/HOSPITAL BASED OUTPATIENT clinics.

So I am interested to read some statistics. Am I off

base is saying I/we give great care to our patients

and over utilization is not in my/our vocabulary.

Would any PT owned clinics like to open their doors? I

would love to hear how our clinic compares to some

national averages. " Specifically the PT owned clinics "

As always I enjoy the conversation and the good read.

Russ

--- slocman@... wrote:

> Some interesting material on this subject is on the

> web site for the Missouri

> Physical Therapy Association. Further information is

> also available from

> Government Affairs Department of the American

> Physical Therpay Assoication (APTA).

> From the MPTA

> " Both the American Medical Association (1992)(1) and

> the American Physical

> Therapy Association strongly denounce the practice

> of physicians referring

> patients to facilities in which they have a

> financial interest. Opposition to these

> situations is based on the following:

> Such arrangements have a high potential for abuse:

>

> Physician owned physical therapy practices had 43%

> more per patient visits

> than patients referred to non-physician owned PT

> practices.

> These referrals accounted for a 31% increase in

> revenue over referrals to

> non-physician owned practices.(2)

> Physical therapists in physician owned practices

> treat an average of 20

> patients per day while those in non-physician owned

> facilities average 12 patients

> per day(3).

> Simple disclosure of ownership does nothing to stern

> the tide of physician

> ownership of physical therapy facilities. In fact,

> between 1989 and 1992 some

> physicians in the state used disclosure as a way of

> marketing their practice by

> telling patients " my physical therapy office is so

> good I invested in it

> myself. " These tactics increased utilization and

> costs to patients, third party

> payors and taxpayers via the state Medicaid program.

>

> Such arrangements limit access to health care and

> eliminate free market

> values (i.e.: competition for quality, cost or

> access).

> These arrangements allow the physician to create the

> demand for PT services

> and then allow this same physician to position

> themselves to exclusively supply

> that same demand thus creating a monopoly at the

> expense of patients and

> third party payors.

> Such arrangements eliminate competition, no matter

> now it is structured,

> conceived or concealed, it is what it is — a

> kickback.

> Such arrangements do nothing to enhance the quality

> of care for the patient.

> Footnotes

> American Medical Association House of Delegates,

> Nashville, Tenn. Dec. 8,

> 1992.

> Florida Health Care Cost Containment Board Report on

> Physician ownership and

> joint ventures among Health Care Providers. (August

> 9, 1991)

>

> Opus Communication, December, 2002 as quoted from a

> 1995 study run by the

> enforcement arm of the Centers for Medicare and

> Medicaid Services-Office of

> Inspector General.

>

> Slocum PT

> GHHA

> Hazleton PA

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State

> Association with a professional workshop or course -

> call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your

> professional association. Join and participate now!

>

>

[Guest guest]

1995 STUDY!!!!!

I know I chime in a lot on the subject of POPTS.

Specifically because I direct one.

Let me give you some UP-DATED statistics from a clinic

that is currently running " real-time " .

Productivity Goal: 12 patients per 8 hour shift.

2004 average number of visits seen per evaluation:7.5

Open continuing education budget for myself and other

PT's. Meaning my physicians are paying for my

certification with NAIOMT.

Budget for Equipment: Open, show how " Their " patients

will benefit from new methods that are research based.

No set limit.

Why do I open my doors for all to see?

Because I believe that many of you on the list serve

are misinformed about POPTS. We are not a chop shop

seeing 20-30 patients a day per PT, even though I have

seen this practice with many other PT PRIVATELY owned

clinics.

This POPT was developed secondary to OVER-UTILIZATION

by PRIVATE/HOSPITAL BASED OUTPATIENT clinics.

So I am interested to read some statistics. Am I off

base is saying I/we give great care to our patients

and over utilization is not in my/our vocabulary.

Would any PT owned clinics like to open their doors? I

would love to hear how our clinic compares to some

national averages. " Specifically the PT owned clinics "

As always I enjoy the conversation and the good read.

Russ

--- slocman@... wrote:

> Some interesting material on this subject is on the

> web site for the Missouri

> Physical Therapy Association. Further information is

> also available from

> Government Affairs Department of the American

> Physical Therpay Assoication (APTA).

> From the MPTA

> " Both the American Medical Association (1992)(1) and

> the American Physical

> Therapy Association strongly denounce the practice

> of physicians referring

> patients to facilities in which they have a

> financial interest. Opposition to these

> situations is based on the following:

> Such arrangements have a high potential for abuse:

>

> Physician owned physical therapy practices had 43%

> more per patient visits

> than patients referred to non-physician owned PT

> practices.

> These referrals accounted for a 31% increase in

> revenue over referrals to

> non-physician owned practices.(2)

> Physical therapists in physician owned practices

> treat an average of 20

> patients per day while those in non-physician owned

> facilities average 12 patients

> per day(3).

> Simple disclosure of ownership does nothing to stern

> the tide of physician

> ownership of physical therapy facilities. In fact,

> between 1989 and 1992 some

> physicians in the state used disclosure as a way of

> marketing their practice by

> telling patients " my physical therapy office is so

> good I invested in it

> myself. " These tactics increased utilization and

> costs to patients, third party

> payors and taxpayers via the state Medicaid program.

>

> Such arrangements limit access to health care and

> eliminate free market

> values (i.e.: competition for quality, cost or

> access).

> These arrangements allow the physician to create the

> demand for PT services

> and then allow this same physician to position

> themselves to exclusively supply

> that same demand thus creating a monopoly at the

> expense of patients and

> third party payors.

> Such arrangements eliminate competition, no matter

> now it is structured,

> conceived or concealed, it is what it is — a

> kickback.

> Such arrangements do nothing to enhance the quality

> of care for the patient.

> Footnotes

> American Medical Association House of Delegates,

> Nashville, Tenn. Dec. 8,

> 1992.

> Florida Health Care Cost Containment Board Report on

> Physician ownership and

> joint ventures among Health Care Providers. (August

> 9, 1991)

>

> Opus Communication, December, 2002 as quoted from a

> 1995 study run by the

> enforcement arm of the Centers for Medicare and

> Medicaid Services-Office of

> Inspector General.

>

> Slocum PT

> GHHA

> Hazleton PA

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State

> Association with a professional workshop or course -

> call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your

> professional association. Join and participate now!

>

>

[Guest guest]

1995 STUDY!!!!!

I know I chime in a lot on the subject of POPTS.

Specifically because I direct one.

Let me give you some UP-DATED statistics from a clinic

that is currently running " real-time " .

Productivity Goal: 12 patients per 8 hour shift.

2004 average number of visits seen per evaluation:7.5

Open continuing education budget for myself and other

PT's. Meaning my physicians are paying for my

certification with NAIOMT.

Budget for Equipment: Open, show how " Their " patients

will benefit from new methods that are research based.

No set limit.

Why do I open my doors for all to see?

Because I believe that many of you on the list serve

are misinformed about POPTS. We are not a chop shop

seeing 20-30 patients a day per PT, even though I have

seen this practice with many other PT PRIVATELY owned

clinics.

This POPT was developed secondary to OVER-UTILIZATION

by PRIVATE/HOSPITAL BASED OUTPATIENT clinics.

So I am interested to read some statistics. Am I off

base is saying I/we give great care to our patients

and over utilization is not in my/our vocabulary.

Would any PT owned clinics like to open their doors? I

would love to hear how our clinic compares to some

national averages. " Specifically the PT owned clinics "

As always I enjoy the conversation and the good read.

Russ

--- slocman@... wrote:

> Some interesting material on this subject is on the

> web site for the Missouri

> Physical Therapy Association. Further information is

> also available from

> Government Affairs Department of the American

> Physical Therpay Assoication (APTA).

> From the MPTA

> " Both the American Medical Association (1992)(1) and

> the American Physical

> Therapy Association strongly denounce the practice

> of physicians referring

> patients to facilities in which they have a

> financial interest. Opposition to these

> situations is based on the following:

> Such arrangements have a high potential for abuse:

>

> Physician owned physical therapy practices had 43%

> more per patient visits

> than patients referred to non-physician owned PT

> practices.

> These referrals accounted for a 31% increase in

> revenue over referrals to

> non-physician owned practices.(2)

> Physical therapists in physician owned practices

> treat an average of 20

> patients per day while those in non-physician owned

> facilities average 12 patients

> per day(3).

> Simple disclosure of ownership does nothing to stern

> the tide of physician

> ownership of physical therapy facilities. In fact,

> between 1989 and 1992 some

> physicians in the state used disclosure as a way of

> marketing their practice by

> telling patients " my physical therapy office is so

> good I invested in it

> myself. " These tactics increased utilization and

> costs to patients, third party

> payors and taxpayers via the state Medicaid program.

>

> Such arrangements limit access to health care and

> eliminate free market

> values (i.e.: competition for quality, cost or

> access).

> These arrangements allow the physician to create the

> demand for PT services

> and then allow this same physician to position

> themselves to exclusively supply

> that same demand thus creating a monopoly at the

> expense of patients and

> third party payors.

> Such arrangements eliminate competition, no matter

> now it is structured,

> conceived or concealed, it is what it is — a

> kickback.

> Such arrangements do nothing to enhance the quality

> of care for the patient.

> Footnotes

> American Medical Association House of Delegates,

> Nashville, Tenn. Dec. 8,

> 1992.

> Florida Health Care Cost Containment Board Report on

> Physician ownership and

> joint ventures among Health Care Providers. (August

> 9, 1991)

>

> Opus Communication, December, 2002 as quoted from a

> 1995 study run by the

> enforcement arm of the Centers for Medicare and

> Medicaid Services-Office of

> Inspector General.

>

> Slocum PT

> GHHA

> Hazleton PA

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State

> Association with a professional workshop or course -

> call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your

> professional association. Join and participate now!

>

>

[Guest guest]

List,

Interesting following this line of concern.. Unfortunately, I testified on

behalf of PPS, back in 1996 about " incident to " and other POPTS concerns and

Congress was not disposed to listen then and have since lowered the barriers

and we are seeing the onslaught of new practices.

Let me add another element to the issue that really disturbs me. A Ortho

opened an office in our office complex several years ago. We " helped " him get

established and thought we had a good relationship... A year ago he moved and

guess what, he opened a PT practice within his new office. An old patient

who had been with us on several episodes of injuries followed this guy. When

told he needed PT, he said he preferred to come back to us. The Dr's

response was that he never heard of us. The patient was shocked and did come

to us.

I have also heard of Dr's who threaten to stop being the " physician of

record " on some worker's comp. claims if the patient doesn't go to " their PT " .

This is just plain blackmail if you ask me and speaks volumes about what some

in the medical community is all about.

PURE GREED.

A. Towne, PT

West Chester, Ohio

[Guest guest]

List,

Interesting following this line of concern.. Unfortunately, I testified on

behalf of PPS, back in 1996 about " incident to " and other POPTS concerns and

Congress was not disposed to listen then and have since lowered the barriers

and we are seeing the onslaught of new practices.

Let me add another element to the issue that really disturbs me. A Ortho

opened an office in our office complex several years ago. We " helped " him get

established and thought we had a good relationship... A year ago he moved and

guess what, he opened a PT practice within his new office. An old patient

who had been with us on several episodes of injuries followed this guy. When

told he needed PT, he said he preferred to come back to us. The Dr's

response was that he never heard of us. The patient was shocked and did come

to us.

I have also heard of Dr's who threaten to stop being the " physician of

record " on some worker's comp. claims if the patient doesn't go to " their PT " .

This is just plain blackmail if you ask me and speaks volumes about what some

in the medical community is all about.

PURE GREED.

A. Towne, PT

West Chester, Ohio

[Guest guest]

List,

Interesting following this line of concern.. Unfortunately, I testified on

behalf of PPS, back in 1996 about " incident to " and other POPTS concerns and

Congress was not disposed to listen then and have since lowered the barriers

and we are seeing the onslaught of new practices.

Let me add another element to the issue that really disturbs me. A Ortho

opened an office in our office complex several years ago. We " helped " him get

established and thought we had a good relationship... A year ago he moved and

guess what, he opened a PT practice within his new office. An old patient

who had been with us on several episodes of injuries followed this guy. When

told he needed PT, he said he preferred to come back to us. The Dr's

response was that he never heard of us. The patient was shocked and did come

to us.

I have also heard of Dr's who threaten to stop being the " physician of

record " on some worker's comp. claims if the patient doesn't go to " their PT " .

This is just plain blackmail if you ask me and speaks volumes about what some

in the medical community is all about.

PURE GREED.

A. Towne, PT

West Chester, Ohio

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/10/2005 10:43:38 AM Central Standard Time,

russcase7@... writes:

So instead of the PT's having their direct supervisor

being the Medical Director who is a MD and provides

patient care. They will get a bean counter who has no

concept of patient care!

Ouch! I resemble a bean counter and I would never dictate patient care. It

is a shame that a single bean counter can leave a bad impression on the rest

of the industry.

Jim Hall, CPA <///><

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/10/2005 10:43:38 AM Central Standard Time,

russcase7@... writes:

So instead of the PT's having their direct supervisor

being the Medical Director who is a MD and provides

patient care. They will get a bean counter who has no

concept of patient care!

Ouch! I resemble a bean counter and I would never dictate patient care. It

is a shame that a single bean counter can leave a bad impression on the rest

of the industry.

Jim Hall, CPA <///><

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/10/2005 10:43:38 AM Central Standard Time,

russcase7@... writes:

So instead of the PT's having their direct supervisor

being the Medical Director who is a MD and provides

patient care. They will get a bean counter who has no

concept of patient care!

Ouch! I resemble a bean counter and I would never dictate patient care. It

is a shame that a single bean counter can leave a bad impression on the rest

of the industry.

Jim Hall, CPA <///><

[Guest guest]

Russ, Have you ever heard of hostages feeling kindly towards those who

captured them....

I applaud your focus on making sure the patient patient is taken care well,

however a few facts:

1. Your Orthopedists (do you own them?)have not lifted a finger to increase

payment for PT services, your profession has

2. Your orthopedists (do they split their professional fees with you as

well?)enjoy the image of owning something ... that probably pays for their

malpractice insurance, oh, and that something is you.

3. Your focus though needs to include the following

a. You own your license not them. Did you work hard for it? Are you

proud of it? You should be. Why are you sharing it for someone else's profit

that

benefits no one but themselves

b. You are not a member of the society of orthopedists, you are a member

of the society of physical therapists, your actions both clinically and in

business reflect on us all ... and that reflection we are saying is not good. Do

you think society looks at you as an independent licensed

professional... or " his P.T. "

c. Your responsibility to the profession needs to get a higher priority

than it appears to have now.

Jim Dunleavy PT, MS

, NJ

[Guest guest]

Russ, Have you ever heard of hostages feeling kindly towards those who

captured them....

I applaud your focus on making sure the patient patient is taken care well,

however a few facts:

1. Your Orthopedists (do you own them?)have not lifted a finger to increase

payment for PT services, your profession has

2. Your orthopedists (do they split their professional fees with you as

well?)enjoy the image of owning something ... that probably pays for their

malpractice insurance, oh, and that something is you.

3. Your focus though needs to include the following

a. You own your license not them. Did you work hard for it? Are you

proud of it? You should be. Why are you sharing it for someone else's profit

that

benefits no one but themselves

b. You are not a member of the society of orthopedists, you are a member

of the society of physical therapists, your actions both clinically and in

business reflect on us all ... and that reflection we are saying is not good. Do

you think society looks at you as an independent licensed

professional... or " his P.T. "

c. Your responsibility to the profession needs to get a higher priority

than it appears to have now.

Jim Dunleavy PT, MS

, NJ

[Guest guest]

Russ, Have you ever heard of hostages feeling kindly towards those who

captured them....

I applaud your focus on making sure the patient patient is taken care well,

however a few facts:

1. Your Orthopedists (do you own them?)have not lifted a finger to increase

payment for PT services, your profession has

2. Your orthopedists (do they split their professional fees with you as

well?)enjoy the image of owning something ... that probably pays for their

malpractice insurance, oh, and that something is you.

3. Your focus though needs to include the following

a. You own your license not them. Did you work hard for it? Are you

proud of it? You should be. Why are you sharing it for someone else's profit

that

benefits no one but themselves

b. You are not a member of the society of orthopedists, you are a member

of the society of physical therapists, your actions both clinically and in

business reflect on us all ... and that reflection we are saying is not good. Do

you think society looks at you as an independent licensed

professional... or " his P.T. "

c. Your responsibility to the profession needs to get a higher priority

than it appears to have now.

Jim Dunleavy PT, MS

, NJ

[Guest guest]

Can someone shed some light on what is being done (and can be done) on a

national level to make these arrangements illegal? Does the APTA see the

urgency of this matter? Thanks,

Mike Moreau, PT

Re: FW: physician ownership

List,

Interesting following this line of concern.. Unfortunately, I testified on

behalf of PPS, back in 1996 about " incident to " and other POPTS concerns and

Congress was not disposed to listen then and have since lowered the barriers

and we are seeing the onslaught of new practices.

Let me add another element to the issue that really disturbs me. A Ortho

opened an office in our office complex several years ago. We " helped " him get

established and thought we had a good relationship... A year ago he moved and

guess what, he opened a PT practice within his new office. An old patient

who had been with us on several episodes of injuries followed this guy. When

told he needed PT, he said he preferred to come back to us. The Dr's

response was that he never heard of us. The patient was shocked and did come

to us.

I have also heard of Dr's who threaten to stop being the " physician of

record " on some worker's comp. claims if the patient doesn't go to " their PT " .

This is just plain blackmail if you ask me and speaks volumes about what some

in the medical community is all about.

PURE GREED.

A. Towne, PT

West Chester, Ohio

[Guest guest]

Can someone shed some light on what is being done (and can be done) on a

national level to make these arrangements illegal? Does the APTA see the

urgency of this matter? Thanks,

Mike Moreau, PT

Re: FW: physician ownership

List,

Interesting following this line of concern.. Unfortunately, I testified on

behalf of PPS, back in 1996 about " incident to " and other POPTS concerns and

Congress was not disposed to listen then and have since lowered the barriers

and we are seeing the onslaught of new practices.

Let me add another element to the issue that really disturbs me. A Ortho

opened an office in our office complex several years ago. We " helped " him get

established and thought we had a good relationship... A year ago he moved and

guess what, he opened a PT practice within his new office. An old patient

who had been with us on several episodes of injuries followed this guy. When

told he needed PT, he said he preferred to come back to us. The Dr's

response was that he never heard of us. The patient was shocked and did come

to us.

I have also heard of Dr's who threaten to stop being the " physician of

record " on some worker's comp. claims if the patient doesn't go to " their PT " .

This is just plain blackmail if you ask me and speaks volumes about what some

in the medical community is all about.

PURE GREED.

A. Towne, PT

West Chester, Ohio

[Guest guest]

Can someone shed some light on what is being done (and can be done) on a

national level to make these arrangements illegal? Does the APTA see the

urgency of this matter? Thanks,

Mike Moreau, PT

Re: FW: physician ownership

List,

Interesting following this line of concern.. Unfortunately, I testified on

behalf of PPS, back in 1996 about " incident to " and other POPTS concerns and

Congress was not disposed to listen then and have since lowered the barriers

and we are seeing the onslaught of new practices.

Let me add another element to the issue that really disturbs me. A Ortho

opened an office in our office complex several years ago. We " helped " him get

established and thought we had a good relationship... A year ago he moved and

guess what, he opened a PT practice within his new office. An old patient

who had been with us on several episodes of injuries followed this guy. When

told he needed PT, he said he preferred to come back to us. The Dr's

response was that he never heard of us. The patient was shocked and did come

to us.

I have also heard of Dr's who threaten to stop being the " physician of

record " on some worker's comp. claims if the patient doesn't go to " their PT " .

This is just plain blackmail if you ask me and speaks volumes about what some

in the medical community is all about.

PURE GREED.

A. Towne, PT

West Chester, Ohio

[Guest guest]

Do the same opinions being expressed on this topic apply to HOPTS (hospital

owned PT) as they are pressuring the MD's to refer for many of the same reasons?

Are we looking for legal answers to that and will the law makers look at the

similariites and use it instead as a reason to not change the laws?

Jeff

--

Hathaway, PT

PRO-Active PT

(607)227-6366

[Guest guest]

Do the same opinions being expressed on this topic apply to HOPTS (hospital

owned PT) as they are pressuring the MD's to refer for many of the same reasons?

Are we looking for legal answers to that and will the law makers look at the

similariites and use it instead as a reason to not change the laws?

Jeff

--

Hathaway, PT

PRO-Active PT

(607)227-6366

[Guest guest]

Do the same opinions being expressed on this topic apply to HOPTS (hospital

owned PT) as they are pressuring the MD's to refer for many of the same reasons?

Are we looking for legal answers to that and will the law makers look at the

similariites and use it instead as a reason to not change the laws?

Jeff

--

Hathaway, PT

PRO-Active PT

(607)227-6366

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

The last time I checked my hospital doesn't write orders. The physicians do. At

my hospital (520 bed) none of the physicians are employed by the hospital. They

are all independent practitioners and because of this my outpatient depts.

market to them just like every other therapy private practice does. Not all

hospitals are closed systems!

Dave MA CCC-SLP

Salem. Va.

Re: FW: physician ownership

Do the same opinions being expressed on this topic apply to HOPTS (hospital

owned PT) as they are pressuring the MD's to refer for many of the same reasons?

Are we looking for legal answers to that and will the law makers look at the

similariites and use it instead as a reason to not change the laws?

Jeff

--

Hathaway, PT

PRO-Active PT

(607)227-6366

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional

workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and

participate now!

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

The last time I checked my hospital doesn't write orders. The physicians do. At

my hospital (520 bed) none of the physicians are employed by the hospital. They

are all independent practitioners and because of this my outpatient depts.

market to them just like every other therapy private practice does. Not all

hospitals are closed systems!

Dave MA CCC-SLP

Salem. Va.

Re: FW: physician ownership

Do the same opinions being expressed on this topic apply to HOPTS (hospital

owned PT) as they are pressuring the MD's to refer for many of the same reasons?

Are we looking for legal answers to that and will the law makers look at the

similariites and use it instead as a reason to not change the laws?

Jeff

--

Hathaway, PT

PRO-Active PT

(607)227-6366

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional

workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and

participate now!

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

The last time I checked my hospital doesn't write orders. The physicians do. At

my hospital (520 bed) none of the physicians are employed by the hospital. They

are all independent practitioners and because of this my outpatient depts.

market to them just like every other therapy private practice does. Not all

hospitals are closed systems!

Dave MA CCC-SLP

Salem. Va.

Re: FW: physician ownership

Do the same opinions being expressed on this topic apply to HOPTS (hospital

owned PT) as they are pressuring the MD's to refer for many of the same reasons?

Are we looking for legal answers to that and will the law makers look at the

similariites and use it instead as a reason to not change the laws?

Jeff

--

Hathaway, PT

PRO-Active PT

(607)227-6366

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional

workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and

participate now!

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I appreciate your concern for my well being. The

hostage scenario is great!

I must say your comments:

" Your responsibility to the profession needs to get a

higher priority than it appears to have now " .

Are very naive and this is why I am coming in early on

a Friday and giving another side to this story.

How many times do you as a PT get an audience of 20-22

MD's to talk about what PT can do for THEIR patient

care?

If you as a PT feel further testing is warranted do

your referring physicians say " whatever you think,

that is why I sent them there?

It's a great feeling, it is what all PT's want to hear

respect for their education and training!

Statistically primary care physicians refer I think

1-3 out of every 10 patients to PT. Ortho's refer 8

out of 10 patients to PT.

By the way I work for a primary care group not

ortho's. So I am constantly educating my referral

sources on how therapy can help there patients.

Guess what? I still am getting under utilized! I get

patients 1-2 months after the primary has tried a

variety of approaches.

Now how am I as a PT hurting our field. Another foot

note. Telling a patient they have to go to one clinic

or another is illegal and is not done " here " . If I see

a patient that lives across town and prefers to go

closer to home fine! I will tell you I give them the

best service and individualized care so they want to

travel another 10 minutes on the freeway...

Guess what? They do!

Jim I appreciate the feedback and would expect from

your comments that you are doing a lot for our

profession besides treating patients.

Any other ideas on how to help strengthen our

profession, (besides abandoning my job and patients )

let me know.

Thanks,

Russ Case PT

--- JIMDPT@... wrote:

> Russ, Have you ever heard of hostages feeling kindly

> towards those who

> captured them....

>

> I applaud your focus on making sure the patient

> patient is taken care well,

> however a few facts:

>

> 1. Your Orthopedists (do you own them?)have not

> lifted a finger to increase

> payment for PT services, your profession has

>

> 2. Your orthopedists (do they split their

> professional fees with you as

> well?)enjoy the image of owning something ... that

> probably pays for their

> malpractice insurance, oh, and that something is

> you.

>

> 3. Your focus though needs to include the following

> a. You own your license not them. Did you work

> hard for it? Are you

> proud of it? You should be. Why are you sharing it

> for someone else's profit that

> benefits no one but themselves

> b. You are not a member of the society of

> orthopedists, you are a member

> of the society of physical therapists, your actions

> both clinically and in

> business reflect on us all ... and that reflection

> we are saying is not good. Do

> you think society looks at you as an independent

> licensed

> professional... or " his P.T. "

> c. Your responsibility to the profession needs

> to get a higher priority

> than it appears to have now.

>

> Jim Dunleavy PT, MS

> , NJ

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State

> Association with a professional workshop or course -

> call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your

> professional association. Join and participate now!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I appreciate your concern for my well being. The

hostage scenario is great!

I must say your comments:

" Your responsibility to the profession needs to get a

higher priority than it appears to have now " .

Are very naive and this is why I am coming in early on

a Friday and giving another side to this story.

How many times do you as a PT get an audience of 20-22

MD's to talk about what PT can do for THEIR patient

care?

If you as a PT feel further testing is warranted do

your referring physicians say " whatever you think,

that is why I sent them there?

It's a great feeling, it is what all PT's want to hear

respect for their education and training!

Statistically primary care physicians refer I think

1-3 out of every 10 patients to PT. Ortho's refer 8

out of 10 patients to PT.

By the way I work for a primary care group not

ortho's. So I am constantly educating my referral

sources on how therapy can help there patients.

Guess what? I still am getting under utilized! I get

patients 1-2 months after the primary has tried a

variety of approaches.

Now how am I as a PT hurting our field. Another foot

note. Telling a patient they have to go to one clinic

or another is illegal and is not done " here " . If I see

a patient that lives across town and prefers to go

closer to home fine! I will tell you I give them the

best service and individualized care so they want to

travel another 10 minutes on the freeway...

Guess what? They do!

Jim I appreciate the feedback and would expect from

your comments that you are doing a lot for our

profession besides treating patients.

Any other ideas on how to help strengthen our

profession, (besides abandoning my job and patients )

let me know.

Thanks,

Russ Case PT

--- JIMDPT@... wrote:

> Russ, Have you ever heard of hostages feeling kindly

> towards those who

> captured them....

>

> I applaud your focus on making sure the patient

> patient is taken care well,

> however a few facts:

>

> 1. Your Orthopedists (do you own them?)have not

> lifted a finger to increase

> payment for PT services, your profession has

>

> 2. Your orthopedists (do they split their

> professional fees with you as

> well?)enjoy the image of owning something ... that

> probably pays for their

> malpractice insurance, oh, and that something is

> you.

>

> 3. Your focus though needs to include the following

> a. You own your license not them. Did you work

> hard for it? Are you

> proud of it? You should be. Why are you sharing it

> for someone else's profit that

> benefits no one but themselves

> b. You are not a member of the society of

> orthopedists, you are a member

> of the society of physical therapists, your actions

> both clinically and in

> business reflect on us all ... and that reflection

> we are saying is not good. Do

> you think society looks at you as an independent

> licensed

> professional... or " his P.T. "

> c. Your responsibility to the profession needs

> to get a higher priority

> than it appears to have now.

>

> Jim Dunleavy PT, MS

> , NJ

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State

> Association with a professional workshop or course -

> call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your

> professional association. Join and participate now!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I appreciate your concern for my well being. The

hostage scenario is great!

I must say your comments:

" Your responsibility to the profession needs to get a

higher priority than it appears to have now " .

Are very naive and this is why I am coming in early on

a Friday and giving another side to this story.

How many times do you as a PT get an audience of 20-22

MD's to talk about what PT can do for THEIR patient

care?

If you as a PT feel further testing is warranted do

your referring physicians say " whatever you think,

that is why I sent them there?

It's a great feeling, it is what all PT's want to hear

respect for their education and training!

Statistically primary care physicians refer I think

1-3 out of every 10 patients to PT. Ortho's refer 8

out of 10 patients to PT.

By the way I work for a primary care group not

ortho's. So I am constantly educating my referral

sources on how therapy can help there patients.

Guess what? I still am getting under utilized! I get

patients 1-2 months after the primary has tried a

variety of approaches.

Now how am I as a PT hurting our field. Another foot

note. Telling a patient they have to go to one clinic

or another is illegal and is not done " here " . If I see

a patient that lives across town and prefers to go

closer to home fine! I will tell you I give them the

best service and individualized care so they want to

travel another 10 minutes on the freeway...

Guess what? They do!

Jim I appreciate the feedback and would expect from

your comments that you are doing a lot for our

profession besides treating patients.

Any other ideas on how to help strengthen our

profession, (besides abandoning my job and patients )

let me know.

Thanks,

Russ Case PT

--- JIMDPT@... wrote:

> Russ, Have you ever heard of hostages feeling kindly

> towards those who

> captured them....

>

> I applaud your focus on making sure the patient

> patient is taken care well,

> however a few facts:

>

> 1. Your Orthopedists (do you own them?)have not

> lifted a finger to increase

> payment for PT services, your profession has

>

> 2. Your orthopedists (do they split their

> professional fees with you as

> well?)enjoy the image of owning something ... that

> probably pays for their

> malpractice insurance, oh, and that something is

> you.

>

> 3. Your focus though needs to include the following

> a. You own your license not them. Did you work

> hard for it? Are you

> proud of it? You should be. Why are you sharing it

> for someone else's profit that

> benefits no one but themselves

> b. You are not a member of the society of

> orthopedists, you are a member

> of the society of physical therapists, your actions

> both clinically and in

> business reflect on us all ... and that reflection

> we are saying is not good. Do

> you think society looks at you as an independent

> licensed

> professional... or " his P.T. "

> c. Your responsibility to the profession needs

> to get a higher priority

> than it appears to have now.

>

> Jim Dunleavy PT, MS

> , NJ

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State

> Association with a professional workshop or course -

> call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your

> professional association. Join and participate now!

>

>