Re: Lurker with pet question

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of lunarmama66

>

>Hi,

> this is my first post. My 7month old puppy was hit by a car this

>evening. She has a broken right leg. Her leg was laid wide open with

>no skin remaining on the right side of her leg. the vet is acting

>kinda pessimistic about her recovery but said she may fully recover

>since she's a puppy. Does anyone know where i could find info about

>her recovery and the principles of WAP. My guess would be any raw

>dairy except cheese, raw grass-fed beef, liver, eggs and some kind

>of fish oil. I don't know how much of her diet should be regular

>IAMS and these kinds of foods.

Ann,

IMO, *none* of her diet should be IAMS if you want her to lead a long

healthy life. IAMS is junkfood - highly processed garbage at best. Grass-fed

beef, liver eggs and cod liver oil (NOT fish oil) would all be great, but

you'd have to feed a calcium source. I think that is where most homefeeders

go wrong and seriously jeapordize their dogs health. What you might want to

do instead is order some commercial raw food that includes bone. There are

many, many vendors these days. I feed Bravo (www.bravorawdiet.com) - they

have many different products, some of them grassfed, and they have organ

meats, ground meat/bone/organ mixes, etc. I also feed mOrigins

(www.morigins.com) which is 100% range-fed beef/organs/bone. I special order

it withouth the added vits/minerals and add my own supplements including b

vits, CLO, berry powder, egg yolks, pureed veggies (veggies must be juiced

or pureed in order to be digestible to dogs) and several other things. If

you have a local feed store or pet store, they may carry raw food mixes like

Steve's Real Food. You can buy either whole bones or ground mixes. I buy

ground mixes - they are typically the consistency of hamburger. The founder

of Steve's, Steve Brown, has written an excellent book on dog nutrition

called " See Spot Live Longer " . I recommend this book in order to get an

understanding of the importance of a fresh food diet for dogs, and what some

components of that diet should be, as well as the dangers of feeding kibble.

A fresh food diet would also help your pup heal up from the accident better

than if he's eating kibble since it can provide the nutrients required for

healing.

I'm very sorry to hear about your pup's accident and sincerely hope the vet

is wrong about his recovery. It might be worth getting a second opinion.

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

I got a 6 month old puppy that had been malnourished and had a heart

murmur. I'd been hearing about the BARF diet (bones and raw food)

so I got some chicken legs and turkey backs and necks and gave those

to him. Sure enough, a month later not only did he have a glorious

coat but the vet couldn't find the heart murmur. They weren't free-

range organic, just regular grocery store meats (the cheapest I

could find).

I've since heard that raw egg yolks are good for dogs. I should

have tried that, we were giving our eggs away! Now I think the pup

is stealing the eggs sometimes. Oh well, he's a chihuahua mix -

can't eat much!

If you can find or possibly make a salve with comfrey in it, they

used to swear by it's ability to heal broken bones.

Honey on open wounds is supposed to keep away infections and speed

healing.

Sounds like you need a new vet.

>

> Hi,

> this is my first post. My 7month old puppy was hit by a car this

> evening. She has a broken right leg. Her leg was laid wide open

with

> no skin remaining on the right side of her leg. the vet is acting

> kinda pessimistic about her recovery but said she may fully

recover

> since she's a puppy. Does anyone know where i could find info

about

> her recovery and the principles of WAP. My guess would be any raw

> dairy except cheese, raw grass-fed beef, liver, eggs and some kind

> of fish oil. I don't know how much of her diet should be regular

> IAMS and these kinds of foods. We just moved this weekend from

> central Indiana to central Illinois and don't know where to

purchase

> nutrient dense foods yet. There is a farm just north of Champaign

> that I haven't visited yet but it's the only place I know of. As

of

> tomorrow I will have no internet service for probably about a

month.

> i plan on getting to the library to see if anyone has responsed.

If

> anybody has had this experience and would share I would greatly

> appreciate it!

>

> Ann McDavitt

>

[Guest guest]

>I got a 6 month old puppy that had been malnourished and had a heart

>murmur. I'd been hearing about the BARF diet (bones and raw food)

>so I got some chicken legs and turkey backs and necks and gave those

>to him. Sure enough, a month later not only did he have a glorious

>coat but the vet couldn't find the heart murmur. They weren't free-

>range organic, just regular grocery store meats (the cheapest I

>could find).

>

>I've since heard that raw egg yolks are good for dogs. I should

>have tried that, we were giving our eggs away! Now I think the pup

>is stealing the eggs sometimes. Oh well, he's a chihuahua mix -

>can't eat much!

Renate,

Be careful not to overdo the poultry. Overfeeding of poultry is probably the

most common problem I see among raw feeders, more so than not feeding a

calcium source. A poultry based diet is much too high in PUFA and too high

in omega 6's which could lead to inflammatory conditions (commercial chicken

fat is a whopping 20% linoleic acid [omega 6]!). That's a huge dose of omega

6s and commercial poultry contains essentially no omega 3s to balance it

out. It is low in cholesterol and saturated fat and probably carnitine and

many other nutrients that are found in read meat. Dogs are domesticated gray

wolves genetically. Their ancestral diet was primarily large ungulates like

elk, moose, deer, etc. IOW, RED meat. Thus, I believe, as do many other raw

feeders, that red meat/bones/organs are what their bodies are designed to

operate on optimally. Poultry did not play a part in their ancestral diet by

any account that I've read.

If for no other reason to keep poultry to a minimum, I think the gross

imbalance of PUFA/SF is compelling by itself.

Of course, if any dog cannot tolerate red meat for some reason, then poultry

may be one of the few options. But it should be supplemented with saturated

fat, IMO, and the skin should be removed from the poultry to cut back on the

PUFA load.

One of my dogs has chronic digestive issues and does best, digestion-wise,

on quail, so this is something I struggle with for her. I alternate between

quail and beef mostly, but try to emphasize the beef (which is a mix of

meat, blood, organs and bone).

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

I feed raw to three dogs and when I have a food source with no bone I use

ground up egg shells and mix it in. You use approximately 1 teaspoon to one

pound and would adjust up or down from there.

Allyn

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Suze Fisher

Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:54 AM

Subject: RE: Lurker with pet question

>-----Original Message-----

>From: @ <mailto: %40>

>[mailto: @ <mailto: %40>

]On Behalf Of lunarmama66

>

>Hi,

> this is my first post. My 7month old puppy was hit by a car this

>evening. She has a broken right leg. Her leg was laid wide open with

>no skin remaining on the right side of her leg. the vet is acting

>kinda pessimistic about her recovery but said she may fully recover

>since she's a puppy. Does anyone know where i could find info about

>her recovery and the principles of WAP. My guess would be any raw

>dairy except cheese, raw grass-fed beef, liver, eggs and some kind

>of fish oil. I don't know how much of her diet should be regular

>IAMS and these kinds of foods.

Ann,

IMO, *none* of her diet should be IAMS if you want her to lead a long

healthy life. IAMS is junkfood - highly processed garbage at best. Grass-fed

beef, liver eggs and cod liver oil (NOT fish oil) would all be great, but

you'd have to feed a calcium source. I think that is where most homefeeders

go wrong and seriously jeapordize their dogs health. What you might want to

do instead is order some commercial raw food that includes bone. There are

many, many vendors these days. I feed Bravo (www.bravorawdiet.com) - they

have many different products, some of them grassfed, and they have organ

meats, ground meat/bone/organ mixes, etc. I also feed mOrigins

(www.morigins.com) which is 100% range-fed beef/organs/bone. I special order

it withouth the added vits/minerals and add my own supplements including b

vits, CLO, berry powder, egg yolks, pureed veggies (veggies must be juiced

or pureed in order to be digestible to dogs) and several other things. If

you have a local feed store or pet store, they may carry raw food mixes like

Steve's Real Food. You can buy either whole bones or ground mixes. I buy

ground mixes - they are typically the consistency of hamburger. The founder

of Steve's, Steve Brown, has written an excellent book on dog nutrition

called " See Spot Live Longer " . I recommend this book in order to get an

understanding of the importance of a fresh food diet for dogs, and what some

components of that diet should be, as well as the dangers of feeding kibble.

A fresh food diet would also help your pup heal up from the accident better

than if he's eating kibble since it can provide the nutrients required for

healing.

I'm very sorry to hear about your pup's accident and sincerely hope the vet

is wrong about his recovery. It might be worth getting a second opinion.

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecr <http://www.allurecreative.com> eative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonap <http://www.westonaprice.org> rice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs. <http://www.thincs.org> org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze, I assume that goes for cats too? I've been feeding my cats

exclusively poultry for several years and they're doing fine. I was

feeding them pasture-raised local chickens for a while but it was too

expensive for me, so I feed them Bell & which are far from

ideal. I do throw away some of the skin but the lack of saturated fat

in this diet hadn't dawned on me. What easy, cheap sources of SFs

could I add? I only have a small grinder so I'm limited to chicken

bones at this point, and I've read that it's better not to mix more

than one animal in the cats' diet, but that may be nothing more than

superstition.

Tom

[Guest guest]

I wonder if the person who posted this could elaborate as to what

conditions/symptoms are associated with a diet too high in *PUFA* and

I must admit my ignorance...what is PUFA? I imagine it's an acronym

for something. Thanks in advance

Jane Edenfield

boxers1@...

On Sep 6, 2006, at 8:38 AM, Suze Fisher wrote:

> A poultry based diet is much too high in PUFA and too high

> in omega 6's which could lead to inflammatory conditions

[Guest guest]

Ann:

I'm sorry to hear about your puppy. I am also a lurker, but I have

been feeding my dog raw for a little over a year and highly recommend

it. I feed a combination of commercial mixes and grocery store

meat. There are as many ways to feed raw as there are dogs and it is

not difficult but it is also important to get some good advice to do

it right. This is my favorite group for the topic:

BARF-lite/

The people on this group will give you a variety of good ideas, so

you can pick the options that work best for you and your dog. Some

recommended books on the topic are:

Mac, Carina Beth: Raw Dog Food: Make it Easy For You and Your

Dog

, Sue: Switching to Raw

Billinghurst, Ian: The BARF Diet

Billinghurst, Ian: Grow Your Pup With Bones

Schultze, Kymythy R. Natural Nutrition of Dogs and Cats

Londsdale, Tom: Raw Meaty Bones

Some good groups to help you find food sources are:

CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

il_rawfeeder/

ILMO_RAW/

Prey4Pets/

I hope this helps and I hope your puppy gets well soon. :-)

Robyn

>

> Hi,

> this is my first post. My 7month old puppy was hit by a car this

> evening. She has a broken right leg. Her leg was laid wide open

with

> no skin remaining on the right side of her leg. the vet is acting

> kinda pessimistic about her recovery but said she may fully recover

> since she's a puppy. Does anyone know where i could find info about

> her recovery and the principles of WAP. My guess would be any raw

> dairy except cheese, raw grass-fed beef, liver, eggs and some kind

> of fish oil. I don't know how much of her diet should be regular

> IAMS and these kinds of foods. We just moved this weekend from

> central Indiana to central Illinois and don't know where to

purchase

> nutrient dense foods yet. There is a farm just north of Champaign

> that I haven't visited yet but it's the only place I know of. As of

> tomorrow I will have no internet service for probably about a

month.

> i plan on getting to the library to see if anyone has responsed. If

> anybody has had this experience and would share I would greatly

> appreciate it!

>

> Ann McDavitt

>

[Guest guest]

>I feed raw to three dogs and when I have a food source with no bone I use

>ground up egg shells and mix it in. You use approximately 1 teaspoon to one

>pound and would adjust up or down from there.

>

>Allyn

>

Hi Allyn,

I do this too on ocassion. It would not be a good idea to do it regulary

though, IMO, for several reasons:

1. The type of calcium in eggshells (ca carbonate) is one of the least

absorbable types of calcium

2. Eggshells are 98% calcium. So they contain only a fraction of nutrients

in bones. Dogs evolved on bones, not eggshells, other than in neglibable

amounts. There are too many important nutrients in bones, and ca interacts

with them in ways we understand and possiblly in other ways we don't, for

egg shells to be a " substitute " .

3. Ca carbonate is a phosphate binder, so it could negatively affect a dog's

phosphorus status if fed regularly.

So I think eggshells should be consider primarly as a pure ca supplement,

albeit one that's not well absorbed. And one that should be used

infrequently. Definitely *not* a substitute for bone with all its nutrients

and nutrient interactions. I should've mentioned this in my post to Ann, as

I don't want to give the impression that ca is the only mineral or nutrient

lacking in diets based on meats, organs and other non-calcium containing

foods.

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>Suze, I assume that goes for cats too?

Hi Tom,

I don't know, but I suspect so. I know a lot less about cat nutrition than I

do dog nutrition, so please keep that in mind when you read my response.

I've been feeding my cats

>exclusively poultry for several years and they're doing fine.

And I fed my dogs microwaved *Skippy* for several years and they did " finé " .

Until one developed an aggressive tumor that took his life within 6 months

despite my heroic efforts to save him.

You know what I mean, I'm sure.

I was

>feeding them pasture-raised local chickens for a while but it was too

>expensive for me, so I feed them Bell & which are far from

>ideal. I do throw away some of the skin but the lack of saturated fat

>in this diet hadn't dawned on me. What easy, cheap sources of SFs

>could I add? I only have a small grinder so I'm limited to chicken

>bones at this point, and I've read that it's better not to mix more

>than one animal in the cats' diet, but that may be nothing more than

>superstition.

I doubt that it matters whether you mix species. I'd want some hard evidence

as to why that would be problematic before giving it any credence.

Cats evolved on small prey. Not poultry to my uderstanding. Well, certainly

not anything that resembled the modern day chicken. OTOH, I think cats on a

mostly poultry diet would do well if supplemented with red meat/organs/bone

and fish. The fish will help balance out the omega 6/3 ratio and the red

meat will provide the saturated fat/carnitine and various other nutrients

not abundant in poultry.

The most knoweldgeable person I've ever run across in regards to cat

nutrition is Russheim, in Switizerland. She's on several cat

nutrition email lists and has a great website. I think this website might

answer many of your questions. If it doesn't, email and tell her I

sent you. She's always been very generous with her knowledge and time.

http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/medical.htm

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>

>I wonder if the person who posted this could elaborate as to what

>conditions/symptoms are associated with a diet too high in *PUFA* and

>I must admit my ignorance...what is PUFA? I imagine it's an acronym

>for something. Thanks in advance

PUFA= Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acids. Ie; omega 6s and 3s.

Cancer is one condition associated with excessive PUFAs, and a variety of

inflammatory conditions, although some are specific to omega 3s, OR 6s, such

as excess platelete aggregation, which can result from excess 6s/deficient

3s. A diet high in PUFAs causes excessive oxidation, liver damage and

depletes vitamin E stores. among other things. So any disease caused by

excess oxidation might be linked excess PUFAs.

There's a list of such diseaseses in Ufe Ravnskov's " The Cholesterol Myths "

I think, and on Ray Peat's site and discussed in many Medline studies, as

well.

Although I'm skeptical of Peat on some issues, there are plenty of other

sources of info that back up his writings on PUFAs. Here's an article that

will give you an idea of the problems with excess PUFAs (which a

chicken-based diet most certainly is):

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

I don't on a regular basis but when feeding raw you have to give a varied

diet and it is hard to get beef or port that has a lot of bone in it. My

dogs get soup bones frequently with good marrow and they get most of the

their whole bones from chicken but I don't feed that exclusively. I try to

rotate the meats I do know of people who feed chicken exclusively but I feel

they need more variation in their diet. My lab also got burned out on

chicken for awhile so he went a couple months without except very

occasionally. I also give them kefir, raw cream, etc. Not a lot, but

again occasionally.

Allyn

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Suze Fisher

Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:12 PM

Subject: RE: Lurker with pet question

>I feed raw to three dogs and when I have a food source with no bone I use

>ground up egg shells and mix it in. You use approximately 1 teaspoon to one

>pound and would adjust up or down from there.

>

>Allyn

>

Hi Allyn,

I do this too on ocassion. It would not be a good idea to do it regulary

though, IMO, for several reasons:

1. The type of calcium in eggshells (ca carbonate) is one of the least

absorbable types of calcium

2. Eggshells are 98% calcium. So they contain only a fraction of nutrients

in bones. Dogs evolved on bones, not eggshells, other than in neglibable

amounts. There are too many important nutrients in bones, and ca interacts

with them in ways we understand and possiblly in other ways we don't, for

egg shells to be a " substitute " .

3. Ca carbonate is a phosphate binder, so it could negatively affect a dog's

phosphorus status if fed regularly.

So I think eggshells should be consider primarly as a pure ca supplement,

albeit one that's not well absorbed. And one that should be used

infrequently. Definitely *not* a substitute for bone with all its nutrients

and nutrient interactions. I should've mentioned this in my post to Ann, as

I don't want to give the impression that ca is the only mineral or nutrient

lacking in diets based on meats, organs and other non-calcium containing

foods.

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecr <http://www.allurecreative.com> eative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonap <http://www.westonaprice.org> rice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs. <http://www.thincs.org> org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thanks Suze, I do supplement the diet with salmon oil to help the

Omega 3/6 balance, but I'm realizing it's high time I reassess their

diet and make some changes. I will check out that page.

Tom

>

>

> >Suze, I assume that goes for cats too?

>

> Hi Tom,

>

> I don't know, but I suspect so. I know a lot less about cat

nutrition than I

> do dog nutrition, so please keep that in mind when you read my response.

>

>

>

> I've been feeding my cats

> >exclusively poultry for several years and they're doing fine.

>

> And I fed my dogs microwaved *Skippy* for several years and they did

" finé " .

> Until one developed an aggressive tumor that took his life within 6

months

> despite my heroic efforts to save him.

>

> You know what I mean, I'm sure.

>

>

>

> I was

> >feeding them pasture-raised local chickens for a while but it was too

> >expensive for me, so I feed them Bell & which are far from

> >ideal. I do throw away some of the skin but the lack of saturated fat

> >in this diet hadn't dawned on me. What easy, cheap sources of SFs

> >could I add? I only have a small grinder so I'm limited to chicken

> >bones at this point, and I've read that it's better not to mix more

> >than one animal in the cats' diet, but that may be nothing more than

> >superstition.

>

> I doubt that it matters whether you mix species. I'd want some hard

evidence

> as to why that would be problematic before giving it any credence.

>

> Cats evolved on small prey. Not poultry to my uderstanding. Well,

certainly

> not anything that resembled the modern day chicken. OTOH, I think

cats on a

> mostly poultry diet would do well if supplemented with red

meat/organs/bone

> and fish. The fish will help balance out the omega 6/3 ratio and the red

> meat will provide the saturated fat/carnitine and various other

nutrients

> not abundant in poultry.

>

> The most knoweldgeable person I've ever run across in regards to cat

> nutrition is Russheim, in Switizerland. She's on several cat

> nutrition email lists and has a great website. I think this website

might

> answer many of your questions. If it doesn't, email and

tell her I

> sent you. She's always been very generous with her knowledge and time.

>

> http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/medical.htm

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design and Development

> http://www.allurecreative.com

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

--

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

>