Re: Native Child Spacing?

[Guest guest]

Recently I have heard some interesting discussion about how the act alone

can deplete the body of important nutrients (Like Zinc!) - and should be

indulged in far less often than the average American does.

So to your question of " Did they? " , I add: " Does sexual frequency increase

the spacing nessicary between children? "

-Lana

On 8/28/06, briseis_of.troy <briseis_of.troy@...> wrote:

>

> In one tribe the man was not to cohabit with his wife until

> the child was 3 1/2 years old.

> Now i am wondering...did they still have sex? What type

> of Birth control did they use? Im sure they wouldnt

> have put anything harmful into their bodies...

>

> Or did they just ahem..NOT do anything.

>

>

> Curious!

>

> Bris

>

[Guest guest]

On 8/28/06, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Recently I have heard some interesting discussion about how the act alone

> can deplete the body of important nutrients (Like Zinc!) - and should be

> indulged in far less often than the average American does.

You mean the average flaccid soy-fed couch cowboy? Any less sex and

he'd truly be the furniture he so resembles.

[Guest guest]

....In one tribe the man was not to cohabit with his wife until

> the child was 3 1/2 years old.

> Now i am wondering...did they still have sex? What type

> of Birth control did they use? Im sure they wouldnt

> have put anything harmful into their bodies...

>

> Or did they just ahem..NOT do anything.

Bris,

They often had more wives. Other than that, there's a huge amount of

lost knowledge on this topic. Missionaries discouraged that sort of

wisdom. Wish I knew the mysteries.

B.

[Guest guest]

On 8/28/06, briseis_of.troy <briseis_of.troy@...> wrote:

> I havent been on here in a little while so i thought i would

> post something i have been rather curious about.

>

> I have not read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration yet,

> but i have read a few exerpts when i could find them.

> Anyways it says that in the groups WAP studied most

> of them practiced child spacing...usually between 2 1/2 and

> up to 5 years. with 3 years being the most common.

>

> In one tribe the man was not to cohabit with his wife until

> the child was 3 1/2 years old.

> Now i am wondering...did they still have sex? What type

> of Birth control did they use? Im sure they wouldnt

> have put anything harmful into their bodies...

>

> Or did they just ahem..NOT do anything.

Polygamy and long periods of abstinance. Dr. Price says that rather

matter of factly in NAPD.

--

" Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear -- kept us in

a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor -- with the cry of grave

national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home,

or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we

did not blindly rally behind it. "

General MacArthur,

WWII Supreme Allied Commander of the Southwest Pacific, Supreme United

Nations Commander; Whan, ed., " A Soldier Speaks: Public Papers and

Speeches of General of the Army MacArthur, " 1965; Nation,

August 17, 1957)

[Guest guest]

*chuckles* I forget about those whos only exercise it is.

-Lana

You mean the average flaccid soy-fed couch cowboy? Any less sex and

> he'd truly be the furniture he so resembles.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds a little unfair. The women had to have thought of something better

than abstinance if the men could have other wives. Were the women permitted

to have wives too?

-Lana

Polygamy and long periods of abstinance. Dr. Price says that rather

> matter of factly in NAPD.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think it was thought of as " normal " for the wives to have wives.

Re: Native Child Spacing?

Sounds a little unfair. The women had to have thought of something better

than abstinance if the men could have other wives. Were the women permitted

to have wives too?

-Lana

Polygamy and long periods of abstinance. Dr. Price says that rather

> matter of factly in NAPD.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> *chuckles* I forget about those whos only exercise it is.

>

Lana,

It's not the sexual activity per se that drains the essence (including

zinc) but the ejaculation.

B.

[Guest guest]

In biblical genealogies there were often 12 or more children, but not

necessarily from one wife. had 4 or 5 wives to achieve the 12

sons and one daughter (dinah) and there may have been other daughters

not mentioned.

People living on a primitive or even simple agricultural diet would

have ingested a lot of phytoestrogens, which work to limit fertility.

There is a theory that plants developed phytoestrogens as a strategy to

protect themselves from overconsumption by limiting fertility in their

predators.

Breastfeeding for up to five years or in some cases longer helped to

inhibit fertility. In Mannings book " Against the Grain " he

claims that in agricultural societies babies were weaned earlier

because they had access to grain porridges and this helped to cause the

population explosions that came with agriculture.

And finally, I'm not so sure that tribal peoples intentionally

discouraged pregnancies.

[Guest guest]

Even if he had say...5 wives he still would be getting it

rarely. They have sex, she gets pregnant..ohhp! No sex for

another 3-5 years with that one...ok move onto the next one..

oh no shes pregnant again too. He would like need 50 of them

LOL!!!!

Bris

>

>

>

> ...In one tribe the man was not to cohabit with his wife until

> > the child was 3 1/2 years old.

> > Now i am wondering...did they still have sex? What type

> > of Birth control did they use? Im sure they wouldnt

> > have put anything harmful into their bodies...

> >

> > Or did they just ahem..NOT do anything.

>

> Bris,

> They often had more wives. Other than that, there's a huge amount of

> lost knowledge on this topic. Missionaries discouraged that sort of

> wisdom. Wish I knew the mysteries.

> B.

>

[Guest guest]

Here is one possibility.....the native Americans were very spiritual people, in

their own way. If we go back to their time, and compare it to ours, it is very

different. Sex was basically used for re-creating. Understand, they were a

very determined people, and had very strong wills. They didn't have the hype of

the media and TV and radio on how wonderful sex is. If you think to the tribes

in the Amazon and Africa,,,they didn't even wear tops. So they were not as much

attracted to the body of the opposite sex, as to the need to re-create. I

believe that sex to them was more of that, than a physical need. Women who were

on they cycles were considered " unclean " and the men did not go near them. It

is all interesting to me.

Just my humble opinion.

Re: Native Child Spacing?

Even if he had say...5 wives he still would be getting it

rarely. They have sex, she gets pregnant..ohhp! No sex for

another 3-5 years with that one...ok move onto the next one..

oh no shes pregnant again too. He would like need 50 of them

LOL!!!!

Bris

>

>

>

> ...In one tribe the man was not to cohabit with his wife until

> > the child was 3 1/2 years old.

> > Now i am wondering...did they still have sex? What type

> > of Birth control did they use? Im sure they wouldnt

> > have put anything harmful into their bodies...

> >

> > Or did they just ahem..NOT do anything.

>

> Bris,

> They often had more wives. Other than that, there's a huge amount of

> lost knowledge on this topic. Missionaries discouraged that sort of

> wisdom. Wish I knew the mysteries.

> B.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Here is one possibility.....the native Americans were very spiritual

people, in their own way. If we go back to their time, and compare it

to ours, it is very different. Sex was basically used for

re-creating. Understand, they were a very determined people, and had

very strong wills. They didn't have the hype of the media and TV and

radio on how wonderful sex is. If you think to the tribes in the

Amazon and Africa,,,they didn't even wear tops. So they were not as

much attracted to the body of the opposite sex, as to the need to

re-create. I believe that sex to them was more of that, than a

physical need. Women who were on they cycles were considered " unclean "

and the men did not go near them. It is all interesting to me.

> Just my humble opinion.

,

Unsure of your differentiation of a " spiritual people " from

an--implied-- " sexual people " . The natives were having plenty of sex,

and sex was important to them. Virility and fertility were highly

emphasized. Why wouldn't they be?

The big cultural difference--in my humble opinion--is that women were

chattel.

B.

[Guest guest]

Lactation delays ovulation in most women. I'm still nursing my 21 mo

son, and my fertility has not returned yet. Another thing that I'm

sure many women were aware of, was there cervical fluid. Directly

before and during ovulation, the fluid becomes very mucusy and

stringy, this allows safe passage for the sperm, and only lasts a

couple of days a month.

--- In , " Rose " <Dandeliongold22@...>

wrote:

>

> In biblical genealogies there were often 12 or more children, but not

> necessarily from one wife. had 4 or 5 wives to achieve the 12

> sons and one daughter (dinah) and there may have been other daughters

> not mentioned.

>

> People living on a primitive or even simple agricultural diet would

> have ingested a lot of phytoestrogens, which work to limit fertility.

> There is a theory that plants developed phytoestrogens as a strategy to

> protect themselves from overconsumption by limiting fertility in their

> predators.

>

> Breastfeeding for up to five years or in some cases longer helped to

> inhibit fertility. In Mannings book " Against the Grain " he

> claims that in agricultural societies babies were weaned earlier

> because they had access to grain porridges and this helped to cause the

> population explosions that came with agriculture.

>

> And finally, I'm not so sure that tribal peoples intentionally

> discouraged pregnancies.

>

[Guest guest]

Lactation is delayed by the type of nursing that you do generally. You

will have more success with delayed ovulation while breastfeeding by

feeding on demand and not supplementing with pacifiers because it is the

suckling action that triggers the hormones to supress ovulation.

> >

> > In biblical genealogies there were often 12 or more children, but

not

> > necessarily from one wife. had 4 or 5 wives to achieve the 12

> > sons and one daughter (dinah) and there may have been other

daughters

> > not mentioned.

> >

> > People living on a primitive or even simple agricultural diet would

> > have ingested a lot of phytoestrogens, which work to limit

fertility.

> > There is a theory that plants developed phytoestrogens as a strategy

to

> > protect themselves from overconsumption by limiting fertility in

their

> > predators.

> >

> > Breastfeeding for up to five years or in some cases longer helped to

> > inhibit fertility. In Mannings book " Against the Grain " he

> > claims that in agricultural societies babies were weaned earlier

> > because they had access to grain porridges and this helped to cause

the

> > population explosions that came with agriculture.

> >

> > And finally, I'm not so sure that tribal peoples intentionally

> > discouraged pregnancies.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> The big cultural difference--in my humble opinion--is that women were

> chattel.

> B.

Chattel where? which tribes? Think b4 you post.

[Guest guest]

> Chattel where? which tribes? Think b4 you post.

,

You have no authority to issue scoldings on this list afaik. When you

issue corrections when a simple question or two will suffice I feel

some annoyance because my need for simple courtesy in lieu of rebukes

is unmet. My request is you cool it with the hall monitor act.

What I got from a recent reading of _The History and Conquest of

Mexico_ was that as distasteful as our society finds slavery these

days, it seems to me it was a norm across the world throughout history.

In Mexico, as the Spaniards made their way towards Tenochtitlan, they

either requested or were gifted with women from tribes along the way

to take care of their sexual and food prep (grinding maize) needs.

The Spaniards then realized they could request vast numbers of men as

well to carry gear, but iirc the men'd be switched out every so often,

like every fifty miles or so, presumably so they could get back to

work at home.

Some of the women gifted to Cortes were daughters of chiefs to ensure

interbreeding and alliances, and they were treated like the royalty

they were, but most were chattel slaves, traded to and between the

conquistadors and exploited for their womanly abilities. Dona Marina

was one chattel slave among a hundred other women traded early on in

the expedition.

What impressed me was how matter-of-fact all this was; chiefs ordered

up people and gave them to other people--yet how else was the work

going to get done?

So that's Mexico. The other adventure tale I read recently was an

account of that jerk De Soto's expedition. Same thing in the SE

United States but he was more obnoxious about his demands for women

from the local tribes. My understanding is that women were apparently

traded as a norm; their skills were desirable.

These chattel slaves were described by the explorers as older and/or

unattractive and they obviously had little status within those tribes

trading them.

Finally, my original point was stated as " my humble opinion " not a

judgement.

B.

[Guest guest]

The lack of artificial baby milk is probably the biggest influence

on native child spacing. Most Traditional peoples nursed their

babies often, carrying them and being available for nourishment

whenever it was needed/called for, and for long periods of time. A

study found the average age for weaning around the world was 4!

That was the average. As Janet points out Sheila Kippley's

book " Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing " is an excellent

resource. The US introduction of formula to create a profit market

for what is better obtained for free, and more nutritious is a

shame, considering now we now " need " to create another profit market

for artificial birth control.

Jan

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > Chattel where? which tribes...

Mike,

Actually, if you or anyone else out there knows anything more

substantial on this topic, I'd love to learn more--Wanita?

B.

[Guest guest]

According to my research, plenty of native american groups were and

still in some cases, are, 1. polyandrous 2. matriarchal 3.

matrilineal, and 4. matrilocal. That's just what my research shows.

I have put up with a lot of regurgitated Chinese medicine and Ayurveda

in the hopes nobody would listen to you. This, however, shocked me.

There is hard research out there on these subjects. I definitely don't

pretend to have looked at it all, but there has got to be a body of

work out there on the actual sexual practices of the groups that

practice child-spacing. How can you castigate me, when you obviously

haven't even tried to look it up?

From what I hear, the natives down in Costa Rica cheat all the time.

They don't marry, although they do pair-bond for life. Some of the

cheating may cause problems.

As far as other groups go, I have read that the Kung San of the

Kalahari often kill each other over extramarital affairs. However,

maybe we were sticking wit hthe Native Americans for the moment. Were

we?

[Guest guest]

downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

>

>

> > Chattel where? which tribes...

Mike,

Actually, if you or anyone else out there knows anything more

substantial on this topic, I'd love to learn more--Wanita?

B.

Iroquois, Haudenosaunee or 6 Nations of upstate N.Y., lower Quebec are

matriarchal and matrilineal in ancestry. Traditionally in the past and still the

Clan Mothers choose the chiefs. This is besides government imposed elected

chiefs.

Five or so years ago I read where the Clan Mothers were angry at a chief who had

signed a deal for a corporation to build on the reservation Land is tribal, not

individually owned. Lot of sickness from Great Lakes industry pollution there

already. Clan Mothers sent men to physically remove chief from tribal office for

this betrayal. Chief was driven off reservation and left there.

Don't know if the following still holds true but traditionally with marriage

the husband moves into the wife's family longhouse. I have read more recent

accounts where the house, household possessions and children are the woman's.

Personal possessions are the closest thing to ownership.

Considering the Mohawk, one of the 6 Nations, has the reputation for being the

toughest warriors and protectors in the northeast historically, it seems being

matriarchal did not affect them significantly.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

> Iroquois, Haudenosaunee or 6 Nations of upstate N.Y., lower Quebec

are matriarchal and matrilineal in ancestry. Traditionally in the past

and still the Clan Mothers choose the chiefs. This is besides

government imposed elected chiefs.

>

> Five or so years ago I read where the Clan Mothers were angry at a

chief who had signed a deal for a corporation to build on the

reservation Land is tribal, not individually owned. Lot of sickness

from Great Lakes industry pollution there already. Clan Mothers sent

men to physically remove chief from tribal office for this betrayal.

Chief was driven off reservation and left there.

>

> Don't know if the following still holds true but traditionally with

marriage the husband moves into the wife's family longhouse. I have

read more recent accounts where the house, household possessions and

children are the woman's. Personal possessions are the closest thing

to ownership.

>

> Considering the Mohawk, one of the 6 Nations, has the reputation for

being the toughest warriors and protectors in the northeast

historically, it seems being matriarchal did not affect them

significantly.

>

Wanita,

How were marriages arranged?

Look what I just read about Ghenghis Khan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_khan#Childhood

" ...His father Yesukhei delivered Temüjin to the family of his future

wife Borte who would be married with Temujin (Genghis Khan) throughout

their lives, members of the Onggirat tribe, when he was only nine as

part of the marriage arrangement. He was planned to live there in

service to Deisechen, the head of the household, until he reached the

marriageable age of 12. "

B.

[Guest guest]

Wanita,

How were marriages arranged?

Look what I just read about Ghenghis Khan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_khan#Childhood

" ...His father Yesukhei delivered Temüjin to the family of his future

wife Borte who would be married with Temujin (Genghis Khan) throughout

their lives, members of the Onggirat tribe, when he was only nine as

part of the marriage arrangement. He was planned to live there in

service to Deisechen, the head of the household, until he reached the

marriageable age of 12. "

B.

,

Off the top of my head marriage wasn't arranged. Marrying in clan forbidden,

related, nation, may be relation. Adultery and ending marriage frowned upon.

Speaking of adultery, gossiping, telling cheated on, troublemaking frowned upon

more.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Mike,

> According to my research, plenty of native american groups were and

> still in some cases, are, 1. polyandrous 2. matriarchal 3.

> matrilineal, and 4. matrilocal. That's just what my research shows.

I've been doing some reading and polyandry seems like a wash as far as

indicating a higher status for women. For one, I can't see it was

ever very popular, since it--and polygyny as well--assume there is a

large disparity in men/women ratios in the population. Further,

fraternal polyandry seems primarily an effective means for keeping

male-held property in the family and associated with a social practice

of female infanticide. Thus, from what I've read, polyandry appears

to be a phenomena of a patriarchal society. Feel free to share more

of what you know about it.

As far as true matriarchy goes, I'd love to know more about some

primitive societies who practiced it, but perhaps you might find this

book interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Matriarchal_Prehistory

Here's the first chapter:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/e/eller-myth.html

I would like to discuss primitive tribes wherein property was passed

down to women through the families. These women, it seems to me,

would have the most options sexually as well.

<snip>

Flame on.

> From what I hear, the natives down in Costa Rica cheat all the time.

> They don't marry, although they do pair-bond for life. Some of the

> cheating may cause problems.

>

> As far as other groups go, I have read that the Kung San of the

> Kalahari often kill each other over extramarital affairs. However,

> maybe we were sticking wit hthe Native Americans for the moment. Were

> we?

I don't understand the this part--what does " cheating " have to do with it?

B.

[Guest guest]

> I've been doing some reading and polyandry seems like a wash as far as

> indicating a higher status for women.

According to my research, there are a number of South American tribes

where there's no real " marriage " of any kind. Every adult can

potentially mate with any other of the opposite gender. Women

purposely have sex with 4 or 5 different men in close succession

because these groups believe that a number of ejaculations are

necessary to " build " the embryo's body. As far as property being

passed down, again, according to my research, there are a number of

groups where property is passed matrilineally. Again, just according

to my research.

>

> I don't understand the this part--what does " cheating " have to do

with it?

> B.

>

I was pointing out that human sexual behavior can be cause for misery

even in groups that have excellent nutrition. Good teeth and bones

don't always mean good common sense. You probably knew that already,

though.

[Guest guest]

On 8/29/06, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Sounds a little unfair. The women had to have thought of something better

> than abstinance if the men could have other wives. Were the women permitted

> to have wives too?

>

> -Lana

The short answer to that is no. A longer and more detailed answer

would take into account that various groups throughout the world had

and have different ways of spacing children. I don't think there is

anything ideal or optimal about what Dr. Price observed and described,

and AFAIK, most folks on this list would not be interested in spacing

their children in such a manner. Which also serves to point out that

not everything that Price's " primitives " did regarding health is

necessarily worth emulating nor does good nutrition necessarily lead

to what we might consider ethical living.

The time tested way of spacing babies is ecological breastfeeding,

which is fairly easy if you raise your children in the " continuum

concept " manner, more difficult if you have adopted the typical modern

american approach of dual income (from outside the home) households

with an unbelievably frenetic activity pace that is hard to imagine

once you get away from it.

The best book I have read on the subject is Breastfeeding and Natural

Child Spacing by Sheila Kippley. It comes recommended by Singer.

Pretty fascinating stuff.

The best spacing method medically appears to be the one adopted by the

ancient Hebrews, whereby a man and woman would abstain from sex during

her cycle and for seven days afterward. When they came together it

would be at the height of her fertility (and enjoyment) and iirc *his*

seed would be at its strongest level. There were several studies a few

years back showing that babies produced in this manner were some of

the healthiest babies ever tested.

This approach also involved ecological breastfeeding and the baby

always near the mom. The result? Babies spaced apart on average 2 to 3

years. When women wanted to have babies sooner than that they would

simply stop breast feeding, not entirely, but on demand, and fertility

would return soon enough.

What is also interesting is that the Hebrew approach involved

abstinence after pregnancy for up to 80 days. 40 days for a male child

and 80 days for a female child. According to Natural Child Spacing, a

woman is incredibly fertile for a few weeks after pregnancy, which of

course is not a time to be getting pregnant again. The interesting

thing about Natural Child Spacing is that it mentions that it takes

longer for a woman's body to be ready for sex again after the birth of

the female than after the birth of the male, which helps explain the

different abstinence periods for males and females among the ancient

Hebrews.

I have an excerpt from an article below that you might find of interest.

--

This was confirmed by a conference on lactation infertility (Bellagio,

Italy, 1988) which stated: " Demographic data indicate that in many

developing countries, the protection from pregnancy provided by

breastfeeding alone is greater than that given by all other reversible

means of family planning combined ...Postpartum women should be

offered a choice of using breastfeeding as a means of family planning,

either to help achieve optimal birth spacing of two years, or as a way

of delaying the introduction of other contraceptives. " 2

Furthermore, it is now recognized that it is not just any kind of

breastfeeding that spaces babies. That's why the Bellagio conference

added, " They (the mothers) should be informed how to maximize the

antifertility effects of breastfeeding to prevent pregnancy. 3 What

that means is this: only " ecological " breastfeeding provides extended

postpartum infertility. This is a form of baby care which is

characterized by constant mother-baby togetherness and frequent

nursing, both by day and by night. How you can do ecological

breastfeeding and still be an active member of your society is

described in Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Natural

Mothering Spaces Babies. 4

A couple of examples help to make the point. In a study conducted in

the West African country of Rwanda, a culture in which there were no

contraceptives or taboos against intercourse after birth at the time,

there were no differences in the birth intervals of bottle feeding

mothers in the city compared to those in the rural areas. On the other

hand, among breastfeeding mothers, there were significant differences.

Among the city mothers who were already developing patterns of

separation from their babies, 75% conceived between 6 and 15 months

postpartum. However, in the rural areas, mothers had their babies with

them all of the time, and 75% of the rural breastfeeding mothers

conceived between 24 and 29 months postpartum. 5

An even more dramatic example of the effects of very frequent suckling

is provided by the !Kung tribe. (The exclamation point represents a

clicking sound.) Anthropologists watched these people with stopwatches

and found that the babies and toddlers were nursing an average of two

minutes every fifteen minutes, and the mothers were conceiving at

about 35 months. 6

Such extended periods of breastfeeding infertility are rarely seen in

Western culture. First of all, only a few Western mothers nurse that

long although their number seems to be increasing. Secondly, there is

some speculation that the richer diet of Western women may contribute

to an earlier return of fertility. Nevertheless, the Couple to Couple

League office has received letters from a few women who experienced

the return of their first postpartum menstruation between 34 and 42

months. In two separate studies, the Couple to Couple League found

that the more common range for the return of the first menstruation

among American women doing ecological breastfeeding is 12 to 16 months

postpartum with an average of about 14.5 months. 7,8 And, just as

there are a few who have a more extended duration of amenorrhea, there

are also a few who experience the return of menstrual periods only two

to four months postpartum. On the average, however, true ecological

breastfeeding will space babies about two years apart even in North

American culture.

The key to breastfeeding infertility is frequent suckling9 and that is

simply a part of natural mothering which entails mother- baby

inseparability. When mother goes to church, so does baby. When mother

goes shopping, attends a meeting, or visits a friend, so does baby.

And when baby indicates a need to nurse, mother obliges. When mother

goes to bed at night, baby is either in the same bed, or at least the

child's bed is right next to the parents' bed so that baby can nurse

off and on during the night without any fuss and bother.