RE: lectin theory vs. gluten theory - Emma

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>but I think Heidi is open to new ideas

Resisting... temptation... so... difficult... pain... overwhelming...!

-

[Guest guest]

>>but I think Heidi is open to new ideas

>

>Resisting... temptation... so... difficult... pain... overwhelming...!

LOL. Oh you shut up now! Just because she didn't agree with the SCD theory

doesn't mean she's not open to new ideas. No more mention of Heidi now from

me because she's not here to defend heself if someone mischaracterizes her

arguments (including me).

Suze

[Guest guest]

Emma,

On the oxalates group on , there is a very clear explanation on

zonulin's mechanisms in leaky gut, by Owens (in the files, I guess).

Cordialement

Taty Lauwers

taty@...

www.taty.be/nouveau.htm

Re: lectin theory vs. gluten theory - Emma

>

>

>

>> 1. Are you aware of the role of zonulin in gut permeability? From what

>> Heidi's posted to GFCFNN, in susceptible individuals, gliadin

> induces the

>> release of zonulin which signals the walls in the gut to open.

>

> I wasn't, but I've looked up the abstracts now. The interesting thing

> about the lectin theory is that the wheat lectin is contained in the

> wheat gliadin, so it doesn't actually discount either theory, allergy

> or lectin. But it would certainly be nice to know the mechanism!

>

>

>> 2. You said to avoid all grains except rice. I thought that ALL foods

>> contain lectins.

>

> I don't think meat contains lectins. Some fish contain some lectins as

> a defense mechanism. Eggs and dairy are said to contain small amounts

> of lectins (in the case of dairy it is possibly dependent on the

> animal's diet). A wide range of plant foods including vegetables

> contain lectins. The highest amounts are found in grains, legumes, and

> nightshade family plants, and these are thought to be the most

> problematic/toxic. White rice is low in lectins compared to other grains.

>

> Because this area is still young and under-researched, it's very

> difficult to determine exactly which lectins one needs to avoid for a

> given disease. There are eight different essential sugars (mannose,

> glucose, fucose, galactose, glucosamine, chondroitin, sialic acid,

> xylose), and different types of lectins specifically fit to these

> essential sugars like keys and locks. You can also be genetically

> vulnerable to certain lectins. Celiac has been connected to more than

> one lectin, including mannose binding lectins and glucosamine binding

> lectins. The wheat gliadin lectin is specific to glucosamine, but

> other lectins appear to be involved too.

>

> It would be nice if more detailed food lectin information was

> available online for this - or even offline. Dr Pusztai's books on

> lectins sell for almost a hundred dollars each, so they'll be

> remaining in my amazon wishlist for the time being!

>

>

>> 3. If one IS intolerant (is that the appropriate word?) to lectins,

> do you

>> know if there is there any " cure " - any way to make oneself NOT

> susceptible

>> to lectin damage? Or is it considered to be a life sentence to a

> severely

>> restricted diet?

>

> You will probably always be genetically susceptible. However,

> supplementation with essential sugars can help considerably, plus if

> you are able to sort out all of the possible factors involved in gut

> permeability (which may or may not also include salicylates,

> histamine, fibre, and microflora), you'll stand a much greater chance

> of tolerating bread etc. and I were discussing the possibility

> that sourdough bread was better tolerated by celiacs due to breakdown

> or binding of lectins during fermentation. Theoretically it ought to

> be possible to add glucosamine to a sourdough and neutralise some of

> the lectin content.

>

>

>

>> 4. Would you consider coming over to the GFCFNN list for a few days to

>> discuss the lectin theory vs. the gluten theory? That list seems to be

>> almost entirely in Dr. Fine's camp, I think largely due to Heidi's

>> influence, but I think Heidi is open to new ideas and is a very

> respectful

>> debator.

>

> I think I remember coming across a Heidi on the NN group who wrote a

> lot about gluten.

>

> It's a flattering offer, but I'm somewhat concerned about 1. the

> amount of personal time it could take up, and 2. feeling like

> in the lion's den! I guess I will think it over for a while and gather

> my strength for that one...

>

>> IF many of us thinking our

>> problems are gluten and casein, but turn out to be lectin problems, you

>> could be helping a whole bunch of people to finally get at the root

> of their

>> problems.

>

> I'm actually in the process of writing a website that will include

> this subject - a sort of a general " plant poisons " theme.

>

>

> Most of the folks on that list from what I've read continue to

>> have problems long after they went off gluten and casein.

>

> That doesn't surprise me.

>

>

> Although, IIRC,

>> according to Heidi, the vast majority of celiacs' guts are no longer

> damaged

>> within a year of going off gluten. I think this was tested on

> biopsy, but am

>> not sure.

>>

>> If you're interested here's the URL:

> GFCFNN/

>> You could introduce yourself by saying I asked you to come over and

> present

>> the lectin theory. There's lots of folks on that list who are also

> on this

>> list, including Steph and others. So you wouldn't be totally

> among

>> strangers.

>

>

> Thanks Suze. I'll think it over for a little while. I'd quite like to

> get my ideas laid out properly in some essays before attempting to

> take on a big task like this, so I may delay it a few weeks/months first.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Could the discussion be cc'd here too?

On Sep 13, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Suze Fisher wrote:

> 4. Would you consider coming over to the GFCFNN list for a few days to

> discuss the lectin theory vs. the gluten theory?

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

>

> That doesn't surprise me.

>

>

What I don't get, is why so many folk only START reacting to some

foods after gluten & casein have been taken out of their diet. For

example my dd had tummyaches & brain " issues " (emotional, dyslexia

etc), we removed all grain, nut, seed & dairy from her diet - great

improvements on all fronts. But NOW suffers anaphylaxis (non-IgE) to

certain foods - the high histamine & histamine trigger ones. Did we

create this new problem with the change in diet? Is it just a

coincidence? Or is there something else going on here?

Jewel (from the GFCFNN group too)

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Just because she didn't agree with the SCD theory

>doesn't mean she's not open to new ideas.

Reasonable people can disagree. That doesn't mean all people who

disagree are reasonable.

People are welcome to peruse the message archives if they're curious.

-

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

>> 1. Are you aware of the role of zonulin in gut permeability? From what

>> Heidi's posted to GFCFNN, in susceptible individuals, gliadin

>induces the

>> release of zonulin which signals the walls in the gut to open.

>

>I wasn't, but I've looked up the abstracts now. The interesting thing

>about the lectin theory is that the wheat lectin is contained in the

>wheat gliadin, so it doesn't actually discount either theory, allergy

>or lectin. But it would certainly be nice to know the mechanism!

Very interesting...

>

>

>> 2. You said to avoid all grains except rice. I thought that ALL foods

>> contain lectins.

>

>I don't think meat contains lectins.

It does, although probably less than grains.

Some fish contain some lectins as

>a defense mechanism. Eggs and dairy are said to contain small amounts

>of lectins (in the case of dairy it is possibly dependent on the

>animal's diet). A wide range of plant foods including vegetables

>contain lectins. The highest amounts are found in grains, legumes, and

>nightshade family plants, and these are thought to be the most

>problematic/toxic. White rice is low in lectins compared to other grains.

That's good to know. Thanks.

>

>Because this area is still young and under-researched, it's very

>difficult to determine exactly which lectins one needs to avoid for a

>given disease. There are eight different essential sugars (mannose,

>glucose, fucose, galactose, glucosamine, chondroitin, sialic acid,

>xylose), and different types of lectins specifically fit to these

>essential sugars like keys and locks. You can also be genetically

>vulnerable to certain lectins. Celiac has been connected to more than

>one lectin, including mannose binding lectins and glucosamine binding

>lectins. The wheat gliadin lectin is specific to glucosamine, but

>other lectins appear to be involved too.

I recall Heidi posting about this a while back on this list, IIRC.

>

>

>> 3. If one IS intolerant (is that the appropriate word?) to lectins,

>do you

>> know if there is there any " cure " - any way to make oneself NOT

>susceptible

>> to lectin damage? Or is it considered to be a life sentence to a

>severely

>> restricted diet?

>

>You will probably always be genetically susceptible. However,

>supplementation with essential sugars can help considerably, plus if

>you are able to sort out all of the possible factors involved in gut

>permeability (which may or may not also include salicylates,

>histamine, fibre, and microflora), you'll stand a much greater chance

>of tolerating bread etc. and I were discussing the possibility

>that sourdough bread was better tolerated by celiacs due to breakdown

>or binding of lectins during fermentation. Theoretically it ought to

>be possible to add glucosamine to a sourdough and neutralise some of

>the lectin content.

Some of us on the GFCFNN list have found several things that neutralize the

effects of gliadin including clay and red wine. Both have worked well for

me. I'll have to look into the sugar binders as well. This is a new area for

me.

>

>

>

>> 4. Would you consider coming over to the GFCFNN list for a few days to

>> discuss the lectin theory vs. the gluten theory? That list seems to be

>> almost entirely in Dr. Fine's camp, I think largely due to Heidi's

>> influence, but I think Heidi is open to new ideas and is a very

>respectful

>> debator.

>

>I think I remember coming across a Heidi on the NN group who wrote a

>lot about gluten.

Yep, that's Heidi! I didn't realize you've been on this list that long.

>

>It's a flattering offer, but I'm somewhat concerned about 1. the

>amount of personal time it could take up, and 2. feeling like

>in the lion's den! I guess I will think it over for a while and gather

>my strength for that one...

I totally understand. But the discourse on that list is very respectful so

it's unlikely you'd feel quite like in the lion's den. But the time

thing is a factor I can relate to.

>

>> IF many of us thinking our

>> problems are gluten and casein, but turn out to be lectin problems, you

>> could be helping a whole bunch of people to finally get at the root

>of their

>> problems.

>

>I'm actually in the process of writing a website that will include

>this subject - a sort of a general " plant poisons " theme.

Please post a link when you are done! I'll be sure to pass it on.

>> If you're interested here's the URL:

>GFCFNN/

>> You could introduce yourself by saying I asked you to come over and

>present

>> the lectin theory. There's lots of folks on that list who are also

>on this

>> list, including Steph and others. So you wouldn't be totally

>among

>> strangers.

>

>

>Thanks Suze. I'll think it over for a little while. I'd quite like to

>get my ideas laid out properly in some essays before attempting to

>take on a big task like this, so I may delay it a few weeks/months first.

Understood. But I'm not sure it would be as big a task as you imagine. I

think it might be a couple of weeks of back and forth throwing ideas out and

maybe some citations. But that itself, is a time committment. In any event,

thanks for all the interesting info. I appreciate it!

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

---------------------------->

[Guest guest]

On 9/16/06, Emma Davies <emma@...> wrote:

> Unfortunately, we are stuck with the order in which scientific

> discovery is taking place because this work on zonulin and the leaky

> gut is brand new. Antibodies to calreticulin have been found in celiac

> disease, and also in a lot of other autoimmune diseases associated

> with a leaky gut that tend to develop alongside celiac disease.

This is interesting, because it suggests that the antibodies are

trying to attack the calcium-binders because the immune system is

" aware " that they are binding up too much calcium. I have no idea

what kind of mechanism would unlerly this " awareness, " but this seems

similar to the antibodies seen to tissue transglutaminase, which makes

the gliadin immunogenic and thereby appears to stimulate

T-cell-mediated gut damage.

This leans further vaguely suggestive support to the idea that the

immune system is not acting dysfunctionally but is trying to fix the

problem and is doing so to the extent it is able.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 9/16/06, Emma Davies <emma@...> wrote:

> Yeah, perhaps I shouldn't say this, but posted for the nth time

> that anyone with hypoglycaemia was probably gluten intolerant, and I

> sort of left the group for a while...

Well geez, I could take, maybe, (n-1) times, but n? No wonder you left.

I think I myself would have been driven from the whole idea of natural

foods in and of itself and cracked open the first pack of natural

logarithms I could find.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com