Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 On 4/1/06, downwardog7 wrote: > > from the most recent Vit. D newsletter: > > > /Chris' rebuttal, " ...very well-written and entertaining " ! > > > > Somehow I don't think he meant " entertaining " as a compliment. :-/ Steph :-P -- http://www.PraiseMoves.com The Christian Alternative to Yoga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 On 4/1/06, Steph <gasteph7@...> wrote: > Somehow I don't think he meant " entertaining " as a compliment. :-/ I wonder what he meant. He could have been referring to some of the humor in it, like the first and last paragraph. You'd have to see it I guess. I don't think the journals have gone out yet; at least, I haven't gotten mine. Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 On 4/1/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote: > > On 4/1/06, Steph <gasteph7@...> wrote: > > > Somehow I don't think he meant " entertaining " as a compliment. :-/ > > I wonder what he meant. He could have been referring to some of the > humor in it, like the first and last paragraph. You'd have to see it > I guess. I don't think the journals have gone out yet; at least, I > haven't gotten mine. > > Chris > Oh, okay. Perhaps you're right. I thought he was perhaps being condescending and using entertaining in place of ridiculous or silly - as in, he didn't think much of the rebuttal. But, he does say it's very well-written, so he may have truly enjoyed it. We do know that I'm not always good at interpreting what people mean with their words here online. :-) Unfortunately, I won't get the journal as I'm not a WAPF member. Are you going to post the article on your site? Steph -- http://www.PraiseMoves.com The Christian Alternative to Yoga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Steph, > Unfortunately, I won't get the journal as I'm not a WAPF member. Are you > going to post the article on your site? It will wind up on the WAPF site pretty soon probably. The article begins: Vitamin A has been accused of many crimes. This time, vitamin A is on trial for the crime of osteoporosis in the first degree. Preformed retinol -- who many allege to be a political prisoner -- proceeds through the courtroom in shackles, while prosecutors call their esteemed witness, the respectable carotene, to the stand. Did vitamin A commit the crime? " He did, " says the carotene, delivering his testimony with clasped fingers and a mischievous grin. More reliable testimony, however, suggests that vitamin A was but an unwilling accomplice to the crime, forced into the precarious position of an apparent association by the mysterious thief who stole the vitamin D. And it ends: The carotene, once widely rumored to be a friend and business partner of vitamin A, sunk his head dismally upon hearing the jury's verdict, feeling as though some cosmic, anti-oxidative force had nullified his damning testimony. " I'm grateful to be free, " said the retinol, staring past reporters into the evening's setting sun, " but my concern is that we find the vitamin D. Some of us think she may be stranded in the cod liver or lost in the egg yolk, or, God forbid, sleeping with the oily fishes. But police say it isn't safe to look there now. We just hope we might find vitamin D once the sun comes out. " Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 On 4/1/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote: > > Steph, > > The article begins: > > <snip> > > And it ends: > > <snip> > Chris > That is entertaining! :-) Steph -- http://www.PraiseMoves.com The Christian Alternative to Yoga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 I recently emailed Sally Fallon concerning Dr. Cannell 's(I think he was the one on the tape from the conference) statements not to od on col. She replied that the foundation did not agree with everything he said. The are coming out with an in depth discussion of col in the Spring newsletter issue which explains the synergisity of A & D in col. On Apr 1, 2006, at 5:16 PM, downwardog7 wrote: > from the most recent Vit. D newsletter: > > " 9. Dear Dr. Cannell: Why don't you like cod liver oil? There are a > lot of studies showing it helps. Thanks. Sue, Seattle, Washington. > > Dear Sue: There are lots of studies showing cod liver oil helps lots > of things. Did you know there are at least seven studies from the > 1920's and 30's showing it reduces colds, flu, and absenteeism in both > children and adults? Did you know there are two recent studies > indicating it either helps prevent or ameliorates respiratory > infections in children? Which one of the three nutrients in cod liver > oil: vitamin A, vitamin D, or omega-3 (fish oil) fats is responsible, > or is it two of them, or is it the three combined? We don't know - at > least I don't. > > I am leery of the vitamin A. Cod liver oil has anywhere from 5,000 to > 15,000 units of preformed vitamin A in each tablespoon, sometimes > more, besides the vitamin D and omega-3 fats. The question is what is > the ideal amount and ideal combination of all three nutrients? The > answer for vitamin D is becoming clearer: enough to get levels up to > about 50 ng/ml year-around. Optimum omega-3 intakes are less clear > and depend on the amount of omega-6 fats (most vegetable seed oils) in > your diet. The answer for vitamin A is unclear, at least to me. > > Vitamin A and vitamin D interact in unknown ways. Vitamin A protects > against vitamin D toxicity and visa versa but we don't know why. > There is increasing evidence that some Americans, perhaps quite a few, > are suffering from sub-clinical vitamin A toxicity, mainly from the > preformed vitamin A in their multivitamin supplements. > Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Feb;83(2):191-201. > > I am not convinced that because cod liver oil is " natural, " it is > therefore good. Tsunamis and strychnine are natural. In fact, cod > liver oil is a processed food and Paleolithic man didn't drink it. > There is evidence that at least one Paleolithic African women suffered > severe vitamin A toxicity, probably from the liver she consumed. > Chronic consumption of chicken liver caused vitamin A toxicity in twin > girls. > Nature. 1982 Mar 18;296(5854):248-50. > Pediatrics. 1980 May;65(5):893-7. > > A recent review of the literature found evidence that higher vitamin A > levels are associated with bone problems. Women who consumed more > than 15,000 units of vitamin A per day in food and supplements had a > three and a half times higher risk for birth defects in their children > than women who consumed less than 5,000 IU. > J Womens Health (Larchmt). 2004 Oct;13(8):939-53. > N Engl J Med. 1995 Nov 23;333(21):1369-73. > > Vitamin A antagonizes the actions of vitamin D, probably at the > receptor level, although that is not clear. The amount of vitamin A > in one serving of liver antagonizes the rapid intestinal calcium > response to physiological levels of vitamin D in man. > J Nutr. 2005 Jul;135(7):1647-52. > J Bone Miner Res. 2001 Oct;16(10):1899-905. > > We just don't know if large amounts of vitamin A (more than 5,000 IU > per day) causes problems when consumed with a large amount of vitamin > D, as would be the case in people consuming large amounts of cod liver > oil. A very well-written and entertaining rebuttal to my cod liver > oil position, which I presented to the Weston A. Price Foundation, was > recently published by that same foundation. However, Dr. Noel > - a vitamin A researcher who spoke at the same conference - also > cautioned against high vitamin A intakes. > Masterjohn, C. Vitamin A on Trial; Does vitamin A Cause Osteoporosis. > > In the end, my natural conservatism wins out. More is not better. > What was the diet we evolved on? I know my Paleolithic ancestors > didn't drink cod liver oil. Neither will I, unless my mother makes > me, or until I have to choose between cod liver oil or nothing - and I > don't. " > > Sorry, it's not osted on the newsletter page, yet, so no link. > B. > > /Chris' rebuttal, " ...very well-written and entertaining " ! > > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > <UL> > <LI><B><A > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire > message archive with Onibasu</LI> > </UL></FONT> > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST > OWNER:</A></B> Idol > <B>MODERATOR:</B> Wanita Sears > </FONT></PRE> > </BODY> > </HTML> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 For one thing, he doesn't distinguish between natural vitamin A as found in animal products, and the synthetic vitamin A in supplements, and also lately in some cod liver oils (they take out the natural vitamins, and replace them with synthetic so they know exactly how much is in there!) The synthetic vitamin A may well cause toxicity. Ann B. > > > from the most recent Vit. D newsletter: > > > > " 9. Dear Dr. Cannell: Why don't you like cod liver oil? There are a > > lot of studies showing it helps. Thanks. Sue, Seattle, Washington. > > > > Dear Sue: There are lots of studies showing cod liver oil helps lots > > of things. Did you know there are at least seven studies from the > > 1920's and 30's showing it reduces colds, flu, and absenteeism in both > > children and adults? Did you know there are two recent studies > > indicating it either helps prevent or ameliorates respiratory > > infections in children? Which one of the three nutrients in cod liver > > oil: vitamin A, vitamin D, or omega-3 (fish oil) fats is responsible, > > or is it two of them, or is it the three combined? We don't know - at > > least I don't. > > > > I am leery of the vitamin A. Cod liver oil has anywhere from 5,000 to > > 15,000 units of preformed vitamin A in each tablespoon, sometimes > > more, besides the vitamin D and omega-3 fats. The question is what is > > the ideal amount and ideal combination of all three nutrients? The > > answer for vitamin D is becoming clearer: enough to get levels up to > > about 50 ng/ml year-around. Optimum omega-3 intakes are less clear > > and depend on the amount of omega-6 fats (most vegetable seed oils) in > > your diet. The answer for vitamin A is unclear, at least to me. > > > > Vitamin A and vitamin D interact in unknown ways. Vitamin A protects > > against vitamin D toxicity and visa versa but we don't know why. > > There is increasing evidence that some Americans, perhaps quite a few, > > are suffering from sub-clinical vitamin A toxicity, mainly from the > > preformed vitamin A in their multivitamin supplements. > > Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Feb;83(2):191-201. > > > > I am not convinced that because cod liver oil is " natural, " it is > > therefore good. Tsunamis and strychnine are natural. In fact, cod > > liver oil is a processed food and Paleolithic man didn't drink it. > > There is evidence that at least one Paleolithic African women suffered > > severe vitamin A toxicity, probably from the liver she consumed. > > Chronic consumption of chicken liver caused vitamin A toxicity in twin > > girls. > > Nature. 1982 Mar 18;296(5854):248-50. > > Pediatrics. 1980 May;65(5):893-7. > > > > A recent review of the literature found evidence that higher vitamin A > > levels are associated with bone problems. Women who consumed more > > than 15,000 units of vitamin A per day in food and supplements had a > > three and a half times higher risk for birth defects in their children > > than women who consumed less than 5,000 IU. > > J Womens Health (Larchmt). 2004 Oct;13(8):939-53. > > N Engl J Med. 1995 Nov 23;333(21):1369-73. > > > > Vitamin A antagonizes the actions of vitamin D, probably at the > > receptor level, although that is not clear. The amount of vitamin A > > in one serving of liver antagonizes the rapid intestinal calcium > > response to physiological levels of vitamin D in man. > > J Nutr. 2005 Jul;135(7):1647-52. > > J Bone Miner Res. 2001 Oct;16(10):1899-905. > > > > We just don't know if large amounts of vitamin A (more than 5,000 IU > > per day) causes problems when consumed with a large amount of vitamin > > D, as would be the case in people consuming large amounts of cod liver > > oil. A very well-written and entertaining rebuttal to my cod liver > > oil position, which I presented to the Weston A. Price Foundation, was > > recently published by that same foundation. However, Dr. Noel > > - a vitamin A researcher who spoke at the same conference - also > > cautioned against high vitamin A intakes. > > Masterjohn, C. Vitamin A on Trial; Does vitamin A Cause Osteoporosis. > > > > In the end, my natural conservatism wins out. More is not better. > > What was the diet we evolved on? I know my Paleolithic ancestors > > didn't drink cod liver oil. Neither will I, unless my mother makes > > me, or until I have to choose between cod liver oil or nothing - and I > > don't. " > > > > Sorry, it's not osted on the newsletter page, yet, so no link. > > B. > > > > /Chris' rebuttal, " ...very well-written and entertaining " ! > > > > > > > > > > > > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN " > > " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT > > FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " > > > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B> > > <UL> > > <LI><B><A > > HREF= " / " >NATIVE > > NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI> > > <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire > > message archive with Onibasu</LI> > > </UL></FONT> > > <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A > > HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST > > OWNER:</A></B> Idol > > <B>MODERATOR:</B> Wanita Sears > > </FONT></PRE> > > </BODY> > > </HTML> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 On 4/3/06, annbekins <annbekins@...> wrote: > For one thing, he doesn't distinguish between natural vitamin A as > found in animal products, and the synthetic vitamin A in supplements, > and also lately in some cod liver oils (they take out the natural > vitamins, and replace them with synthetic so they know exactly how > much is in there!) The synthetic vitamin A may well cause toxicity. That's probably because the research associating vitamin A with osteoporosis associates both synthetic and natural vitamin A with osteoporosis. I think, as I wrote in my article (in the Wise Traditions that should be coming out any day now), that the issue is balance with vitamin D, and there's some pretty compelling evidence on this, but Cannel, as he wrote in this newsletter, doesn't think that the evidence proves the point well enough for him. I think if you take Price's findings into account, the point is pretty well proven. Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Hi Chris! I'm curious how much vit A & D you take a day? Do you take additional supplemental D3 (other than CLO)? What brand are you taking? I looked at my HFS the other day and every brand had something in it I didn't want (soybean oil, lactose, etc...). Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 > Hi Chris! Hi ! :-) > I'm curious how much vit A & D you take a day? I take 2 tablespoons of cod liver oil. I prefer to take high-vitamin, such as blue ice, in which case I get just under 4,000 IU vitamin D and about 70,000 IU of vitamin A. I wouldn't do this in the summer without testing, if I managed to get much sun, but that will depend on whether I work during the day or not. I don't think everyone needs this much vitamin A, but I found that getting just under 100,000 IU per day turned horrible scalp psoriasis to a moderate dandruff problem within a month or maybe six or seven weeks. > Do you take additional > supplemental D3 (other than CLO)? What brand are you taking? I used Blue Ice when I can get it, but I always run out. The recently started selling cases of 12 for $13/bottle, so I'm going in on a huge order with my friend. He's getting like two cases, and I and one of his other friends are getting six each, so that should last me a little while and save me $42. When I don't have Blue Ice, I use Garden of Life. When I take the Blue Ice, I dont' take additional D3, but when I take the Garden of Life, I only get about 1200 IU of D per day and 30,000 IU of A per day, so I take 1000-2000 IU of fish liver oil-derived D, which also has a small amount of A in it. Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 > When I don't have Blue Ice, I use Garden of Life. When I take the > Blue Ice, I dont' take additional D3, but when I take the Garden of > Life, I only get about 1200 IU of D per day and 30,000 IU of A per > day, so I take 1000-2000 IU of fish liver oil-derived D, which also > has a small amount of A in it. Thanks for the reply, Chris. One more question: which brand of fish liver oil-derived D do you take? I only saw ones that had soybean oil. I emailed Dave Wetzel and asked if he'd consider making a vitD supplement -- haven't heard back yet. Oh -- i got my Wise Traditions today. I haven't read your article yet, but I wanted to give you my sincere thanks for all the work you put into that. Thank you, Chris!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 > I take 2 tablespoons of cod liver oil. I prefer to take high-vitamin, > such as blue ice, in which case I get just under 4,000 IU vitamin D > and about 70,000 IU of vitamin A. Just fyi -- 1 tsp of Blue Ice has a little over 1,000 IU vitD. 2Tbls would be 6tsp, so you'd be getting 6,000 IU vit D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 On 4/4/06, kili94 <lm324@...> wrote: > Just fyi -- 1 tsp of Blue Ice has a little over 1,000 IU vitD. 2Tbls > would be 6tsp, so you'd be getting 6,000 IU vit D. Actually it's 6900. I was mixing up what I'd calculated for one tablespoon before! I guess if I was going to do this long term I'd get vitamin D testing to make sure no ODing was happening, but I've been doing it off and on because of availability. Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 On 4/4/06, kili94 <lm324@...> wrote: > Thanks for the reply, Chris. One more question: which brand of fish > liver oil-derived D do you take? I only saw ones that had soybean > oil. I emailed Dave Wetzel and asked if he'd consider making a vitD > supplement -- haven't heard back yet. I've been taking Whole Foods brand, which is pretty cheap. > Oh -- i got my Wise Traditions today. I haven't read your article yet, > but I wanted to give you my sincere thanks for all the work you put > into that. Thank you, Chris!! You're welcome and thanks! Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 > That's probably because the research associating vitamin A with > osteoporosis associates both synthetic and natural vitamin A with > osteoporosis. > > I think, as I wrote in my article (in the Wise Traditions that should > be coming out any day now), that the issue is balance with vitamin D, and there's some pretty compelling evidence on this, but Cannel, as he wrote in this newsletter, doesn't think that the evidence proves the point well enough for him. I think if you take Price's findings into account, the point is pretty well proven. > > Chris Yes, the research does lump the synthetic and natural vit. A together, and so far researchers don't seem to be making any attempt to see if there is a difference, or if it's true that the vit. D counteracts any toxicity. But I agree that the WAP findings prove it, at least enough for me. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Ann, > Yes, the research does lump the synthetic and natural vit. A together, No, it doesn't -- certainly not all of it, in any case. > and so far researchers don't seem to be making any attempt to see if > there is a difference, That's definitely not true, and I suggest you read the Feskanich et al. analysis of the Nurses' Health Study. The Feskanich group went to considerable lengths to distinguish between food and supplemental retinol. > or if it's true that the vit. D counteracts any > toxicity. I think there has been some effort in this regard, but definitely far too little. The main problem is that even when this is recognized, the researchers still refer to " excess " vitamin A rather than making the point that if D is brought up to sufficiency the A is probably not a problem. >But I agree that the WAP findings prove it, at least enough > for me. It's definitely a very, very strong piece of evidence. The problem with it is that Price's " experiment " isn't really replicable, and people who stick to the scientific method conservatively need to see confirmation, and may brush off the research since it is old and basically unrepeated. I do think, however, that there is enough modern research to demonstrate this point in a very compelling way, which I discuss in the article. Chris -- Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? Find Out the Truth: http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 > > Ann, > > > Yes, the research does lump the synthetic and natural vit. A together, > > No, it doesn't -- certainly not all of it, in any case. > > > and so far researchers don't seem to be making any attempt to see if > > there is a difference, > > That's definitely not true, and I suggest you read the Feskanich et > al. analysis of the Nurses' Health Study. The Feskanich group went to > considerable lengths to distinguish between food and supplemental > retinol. > I wasn't aware of that. I'll have to go read that study. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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