Re: Epilepsy (was: amines)

[Guest guest]

" Emma Davies " emma@... vitaminkgirl wrote:

> Glutamic acid is better absorbed than GABA. More likely to increase

GABA. Two, more agreeable options maybe.

Does this guy not know that too much glutamic acid compared to too

little GABA is what causes most seizures? It seems like an awfully

risky way of going about things, and reliant on the body being able to

produce enough GABA from the glutamic acid. I was under the impression

that in most epilepsy, not enough GABA can be produced from the

glutamate present?

I've sent links to " this guy " at least 3 times in response to your posts. Here's

the pertinent portions for 8/22/06. You say glutamate>GABA above and in chart

you sent below included in my message. Braverman says glutamine>GABA. Glutamic

acid is in Braverman's book, The Edge Effect under GABA but not in article link

below

Emma Davies " emma@... vitaminkgirl wrote:

My original point was:

Did paleolithic people eat more than 50mg of histamine and tyramine on

a regular basis?

Wanita:

According to the table of phenylalanine and tyrosine foods on pgs. 84

and 85 in The Edge Effect by R. Braverman M.D. 6-8 ozs. of wild

game has 1.5 " gms. " of tyrosine and in the same portion is 2.6 " gms. "

of phenylalanine.

Genes have been found that are associated with asthma, and ADHD.

Incidentally, one of the ADHD associated genes, DRD4, which is a

dopamine-receptor mutation, appeared between 10,000-40,000 years ago.

Wanita:

Braverman associates ADHD with dopamine neurotransmitter dominance

and/or deficiency. I've posted this article of Braverman's in response

to you before.

http://douglaslabs.com/pdf/nutrinews/The%20Edge%20Effect%20NN%20(Spring-05).pdf

These are some normal degradations of amino acids into amines:

histidine > histamine

ornithine > putrescine > spermidine

lysine > cadaverine

arginine > agmatine > putrescine

tryptophan > 5-HTP > serotonin

tryptophan > tryptamine

glutamic acid > glutamate > GABA

tyrosine > tyramine

tyrosine > levodopa > dopamine

phenylalanine > phenylethylamine

Wanita:

Most of the above Braverman puts to his dopamine, GABA or serotonin

natures. That leaves his acetylcholine nature, the only one not

requiring amino acids for specific neurotransmitter production. Iirc,

you've said before your entire family has CFS and takes acetaminophen

but you stopped. You've also said you've spent a lot of money on

supplements that didn't work and were wondering about cysteine. Did you

know NAC is the treatment for acetaminophen poisoning? Have you found

that? http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic7.htm Please excuse me if my memory

doesn't serve me totally on the above.

My partner has to be very careful with MSG because it makes him

twitchy.

Few months ago here we had a discussion on glutamate vs. glutamine. Should find

it at onibasu.com. Yes, glutamate can be harmful to neurotransmitters. Glutamine

can heal leaky gut.

He has nocturnal seizures and we've had a few nervous nights

after going to restaurants. He's generally twitchier if he gets larger

amounts of any typical amine foods in the evening - just a short term

effect, so he limits cheese, pork, game, hung beef etc to early on in

the day.

I'd have full body jerks just as I was falling asleep before I eliminated

gluten. He's eating high phenylalanine, tyrosine, choline and tryptophan foods

early because to avoid high histamine?

He's on valproate (epilim/depakote). Gabapentin is actually bad for

the type of epilepsy he has (JME), something to do with the particular

kinds of receptors affected I believe.

Obviously any medication is not ideal, but valproate acts on the brain

in the same way that ketones do.

In the Edge Effect book, Braverman is more complete on neurotransmitter

appropriate medications than the article above. I'm no doctor or expert. Ketones

and brain sounds more like acetylcholine to Alzheimer's than GABA to seizures.

Braverman uses BEAM (Brain Electrical Activity Map) for neurotransmitter nature.

http://www.pathmed.com/p/23.html

We low-carb, so he only has to take a

child's dose to keep his seizures under control (his consultant just

doesn't understand it, lol).

Huh? Doesn't understand low carb and ketosis.

He's known he has JME since he was diagnosed when he was at

university, but he's actually only started having seizures this time

last year - he's fairly lucky, most JME patients develop symptoms in

their late teens/early twenties. We tried all kinds of things as it

became more frequent (taurine, choline, P5P, inositol, methylators,

GABA, magnesium, tons of other stuff) before resorting to medication

because he didn't want to take any drugs, but it just got too scary

when he started dislocating his shoulder. His shoulder now easily

dislocates because the edge of the bone that keeps it in has been

scraped away (in fact this morning we had a ten minute panic because

he managed to pop it out again getting into the car, but we managed to

swing it back in again...)

Acetylcholine is the precursor to myelin.

Melatonin is illegal in the UK, but I managed to get some imported

from the states, but not in time to try it before he started the

valproate. It is supposed to work wonders for nocturnal seizures,

particularly the kind he has, but no one has actually done a proper

trial on JME patients, sadly.

You'll see Braverman suggests melatonin for GABA.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> Wanita:

> According to the table of phenylalanine and tyrosine foods on pgs. 84

> and 85 in The Edge Effect by R. Braverman M.D. 6-8 ozs. of wild

> game has 1.5 " gms. " of tyrosine and in the same portion is 2.6 " gms. "

> of phenylalanine.

Wow, good thing I don't need to care about amines! But was that meat

aged, dried or <gasp> fermented?

Sounds like a good book from a reputable science-like background

source, but amazon doesn't have it now. Do you have another option

for purchase?

Merci,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 9/26/06, yoginidd <WAPFbaby@...> wrote:

>

> > Wanita:

> > According to the table of phenylalanine and tyrosine foods on pgs. 84

> > and 85 in The Edge Effect by R. Braverman M.D. 6-8 ozs. of wild

> > game has 1.5 " gms. " of tyrosine and in the same portion is 2.6 " gms. "

> > of phenylalanine.

>

> Wow, good thing I don't need to care about amines! But was that meat

> aged, dried or <gasp> fermented?

I was kind of wondering whether he was including the tyrosine and

phenylalanine residues in the proteins. I don't think that counts.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

I'm curious about this. My dog has recently developed fly biting syndrome.

The vet schools arn't 100% but they do consider it seizure-like.

I've tried to trace back to when it started and I figure it was back when I

decreased her organ allotment from 50% to a more " accepted " 20% of her

diet. (The fly biting was just a slight tick back then, not really

noticeable - rare enough you'd think it were actually a fly she were chasing

- this was about 6-8 months ago.) Recently it has been *awful* and it goes

hand in hand with me introducing some commercial food into her diet (out of

raw, don't like the local store's freshness - order comes in tomorrow). At

first we were suspecting rosemary oil that was used to preserve the chicken,

now I've got her on a venison and rice formula with nothing else in it and

its still happening. If I take her off the food and feed her just liver for

2 days straight, she gets significantly better - but not anywhere as good as

what she used to be. I can't get good organic liver, so she's been getting

Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure about giving

her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it. As of

tomorrow she will be back on her usual raw diet, but with the 50% organ

allotment that she had last year.

It usually happens at night, very rarely in the morning. We thought it had

something to do with lighting intensity, but although that effects it - it

doesn't seem to be a driving factor.

Any ideas?

Thanks!!

-Lana

Does this guy not know that too much glutamic acid compared to too

> little GABA is what causes most seizures? It seems like an awfully

> risky way of going about things, and reliant on the body being able to

> produce enough GABA from the glutamic acid. I was under the impression

> that in most epilepsy, not enough GABA can be produced from the

> glutamate present?

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>I'm curious about this. My dog has recently developed fly biting syndrome.

>The vet schools arn't 100% but they do consider it seizure-like.

Lana,

My minpin Mokie had this when I first adopted her 6 years ago. She was 10 at

the time and had several health problems and had recently been bred by the

breeder I adopted her from. She was on IAMS kibble when I got her. Two vets

thought this was a type of seizuring activity. I put her on a raw diet

within a day or two of adopting her and the behaviour continued for a while

afterwards. I don't recall for how long, but at least a few months, if not

longer. In time, I came to believe the fly biting wasn't related to

seizuring, rather that it was, in the context of her personality and the

difficult background she'd come from, more likely to be canine

obsessive-compulsive disorder. She was the most nervous and frantic dog I'd

ever known. But as time wore on and she settled into my home and became less

nervous and fearful and more trusting and comfortable, the fly biting

tapered off and eventually ended. She hasn't done it in years. She *does*

still lick her front legs when she's nervous, though.

I have no idea what's going on with *your* dog, but I thought I'd mention it

since it's one among several possibilities.

At

>first we were suspecting rosemary oil that was used to preserve

>the chicken,

Why did you suspect the rosemary oil? I've wondered if that's why Mokie

sometimes doesn't seem to tolerate Blue Ice CLO. But I do continue to give

it to her. She has on and off digestive issues, but I haven't been able to

pin it on the Blue Ice since she sometimes has good stools while on it and

sometimes not.

I can't get good organic liver, so she's been getting

>Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure about giving

>her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it.

It also has a lot of vitamin D in it, if you mean you're worried about

toxicity, and the D helps lower the toxicity threshold of the A

significantly. Did you read Chris' vitamin A article in the last Wise

Traditions? He discusses this issue there.

In any event, the NRC, which makes the nutrient requirements of dogs

recommendations which everyone uses to determine dogs' nutrient requirements

(probably to the dogs' detrmient) has no idea how much vitamin A is required

by dogs for *optimal* health. They only have an idea how much *might*

prevent deficiency in certain test subjects.

Suze

>

[Guest guest]

>

>I've tried to trace back to when it started and I figure it was back when I

>decreased her organ allotment from 50% to a more " accepted " 20% of her

>diet.

BTW, what do you mean by more " accepted " - accepted by whom? By your dog?

She doesn't like 50% organ meats? Are you feeding her a commercial raw food

that's 50% organs? If so, which one? If not, what exactly is in her food

when it's 50% organs?

Suze

[Guest guest]

> According to the table of phenylalanine and tyrosine foods on pgs. 84

> and 85 in The Edge Effect by R. Braverman M.D. 6-8 ozs. of wild

> game has 1.5 " gms. " of tyrosine and in the same portion is 2.6 " gms. "

> of phenylalanine.

Wow, good thing I don't need to care about amines! But was that meat

aged, dried or <gasp> fermented?

Sounds like a good book from a reputable science-like background

source, but amazon doesn't have it now. Do you have another option

for purchase?

Deanna,

Being a butcher, meat cutter of livestock and hunter of wild game's daughter, I

want to know especially about these amines in meats. Don't know wheather wild

game is deer or raccoon. With about half as many amines between wild and

commercially raised its more likely that wild feeding produces more amines " in "

the meat, commercial feed reduces amounts and any hanging, drying, fermenting,

transportation, shelf sitting draws these out to the skin surface, if I'm

understanding correctly. Raising your own chickens, have you ever tried to roast

and eat a chicken killed that day? Stewing is the only way you're going to break

down the muscle's toughness.

Did amazon say they didn't have it after you ordered it? They've got in stock

online. I ordered it used. Dr. Braverman worked with Carl Pfeiffer at Pfeiffer's

Brain Bio Center in Princeton NJ., has many reputable affiliations and

publishings. You're not going to agree with all he writes, just like any book.

Quite interesting are the color BEAM photos of specific neurotransmitter healthy

brains and overcoming the dark side of personality. You'll see yourself, people

in your life and that it is projection of one neurotransmitter at the expense of

another. Lot of social implication there ala Price on societal ills and

nutrition.

Noticed recently that these fairly new energy drinks on the market have

phenylalanine if sugar free, taurine, B3, B5, B6 B12 and inositol. I'd almost

think they read the book, included some from the dopamine, acetylcholine and

GABA boosters to compensate for the pasta, grain refined carb cravings of

serotonin. Sugar coated profitable fix of acidic supplements in aluminum cans.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Lana,

>I can't get good organic liver, so she's been getting

> Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure about giving

> her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it. As of

> tomorrow she will be back on her usual raw diet, but with the 50% organ

> allotment that she had last year.

Since dogs don't eat fish, why would you want a cod liver oil with a

high PUFA-to-vitamin A ratio instead of a low one?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>Since dogs don't eat fish, why would you want a cod liver oil with a

>high PUFA-to-vitamin A ratio instead of a low one?

That *may* depend on the type of dog she has. The Inuit's dogs ate a TON of

fish, as did the dogs of other coastal dwellers in other regions of the

world. So there are some breeds that had a long history of fish eating.

Suze

[Guest guest]

[Wanita] Being a butcher, meat cutter of livestock and hunter of wild

game's daughter, I want to know especially about these amines in

meats. Don't know wheather wild game is deer or raccoon. With about

half as many amines between wild and commercially raised its more

likely that wild feeding produces more amines " in " the meat,

commercial feed reduces amounts and any hanging, drying, fermenting,

transportation, shelf sitting draws these out to the skin surface, if

I'm understanding correctly. Raising your own chickens, have you ever

tried to roast and eat a chicken killed that day? Stewing is the only

way you're going to break down the muscle's toughness.

[Deanna] Vedy interesting. My Swedish grandfather was a butcher, but

I am unfortunately quite ignorant of these trade practices. So you

are saying meats raised on modern factory farm foods have decreased

amines in meat, plus aging any meat - wild or not - by various means

draws them out to the skin?

We have slaughtered a few roosters, but they remain in the freezer

<g>. Silkies are great for eggs, but their meat wouldn't even give

the cats a great meal - too small. But yes, rigor mortis sets in

quickly after the kill, doesn't it? I bet even raw, super fresh meat

might be unpleasantly difficult to eat. I hadn't thought about that.

Organ meats probably would be exempt (?), hence the eating of organs

right after the kill ... by my speculation anyway.

[Wanita] Did amazon say they didn't have it after you ordered it?

They've got in stock online. I ordered it used. Dr. Braverman worked

with Carl Pfeiffer at Pfeiffer's Brain Bio Center in Princeton NJ.,

has many reputable affiliations and publishings. You're not going to

agree with all he writes, just like any book. Quite interesting are

the color BEAM photos of specific neurotransmitter healthy brains and

overcoming the dark side of personality. You'll see yourself, people

in your life and that it is projection of one neurotransmitter at the

expense of another. Lot of social implication there ala Price on

societal ills and nutrition.

[Deanna] I really enjoyed the article you posted last night. Here's

the link for anyone interested:

http://tinyurl.com/plv8q

Funny, last night Amazon said it's currently unavailable, so I never

did order. I'll swing by the used book store today when I'm out.

Otherwise I'll have to try again, especially since you say it's in

stock now. I found a personality test online since I couldn't decide

between dopamine or GABA dominance from just the article:

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

[Wanita] Noticed recently that these fairly new energy drinks on the

market have phenylalanine if sugar free, taurine, B3, B5, B6 B12 and

inositol. I'd almost think they read the book, included some from the

dopamine, acetylcholine and GABA boosters to compensate for the pasta,

grain refined carb cravings of serotonin. Sugar coated profitable fix

of acidic supplements in aluminum cans.

[Deanna] Could be. Yeah, if they can market brain boosting drinks,

watch out. Pretty ironic with aluminum container, since it has been

linked to senility iirc.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but the turkey group

was recently discussing Febreeze killing parrots; are you using a

new cleanser or more of one?

>

> I'm curious about this. My dog has recently developed fly biting

syndrome.

> The vet schools arn't 100% but they do consider it seizure-like.

>

> I've tried to trace back to when it started and I figure it was

back when I

> decreased her organ allotment from 50% to a more " accepted " 20% of

her

> diet. (The fly biting was just a slight tick back then, not really

> noticeable - rare enough you'd think it were actually a fly she

were chasing

> - this was about 6-8 months ago.) Recently it has been *awful*

and it goes

> hand in hand with me introducing some commercial food into her

diet (out of

> raw, don't like the local store's freshness - order comes in

tomorrow). At

> first we were suspecting rosemary oil that was used to preserve

the chicken,

> now I've got her on a venison and rice formula with nothing else

in it and

> its still happening. If I take her off the food and feed her just

liver for

> 2 days straight, she gets significantly better - but not anywhere

as good as

> what she used to be. I can't get good organic liver, so she's

been getting

> Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure

about giving

> her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it.

As of

> tomorrow she will be back on her usual raw diet, but with the 50%

organ

> allotment that she had last year.

>

> It usually happens at night, very rarely in the morning. We

thought it had

> something to do with lighting intensity, but although that effects

it - it

> doesn't seem to be a driving factor.

>

> Any ideas?

>

> Thanks!!

> -Lana

>

>

> Does this guy not know that too much glutamic acid compared to too

> > little GABA is what causes most seizures? It seems like an

awfully

> > risky way of going about things, and reliant on the body being

able to

> > produce enough GABA from the glutamic acid. I was under the

impression

> > that in most epilepsy, not enough GABA can be produced from the

> > glutamate present?

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hmmmm, well, I don't have febreeze in the house because it makes me sick.

We've been phasing out the chemicals as we can and adding more natural

things like parsley cleaners etc. My rule of thumb is if it doesn't give me

a headache, it stays. We have changed a lot of brands so I can't say any

one might be at fault - maybe them all?

I know around when this started we were looking for a new floor cleaner so

I'll try to note when we use it and when she reacts.

Thanks!

-Lana

On 9/27/06, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but the turkey group

> was recently discussing Febreeze killing parrots; are you using a

> new cleanser or more of one?

>

[Guest guest]

It was home made raw, and the organ portion was usually around 50% heart,

25% liver, 12% kidney, 12% giblets. Sometimes more liver and less heart,

depending on availablility and whether or not she was turning it away.

Sometimes I'd swap the kidney and giblets for lung if available. Mostly

beef and chicken but I got whatever I could that was " exotic " when it was

around.

If it were up to Jez, she would probably eat lots of organs. Actually, the

reason I had originally upped it was her personal preference. But I was

told by a lot of raw people who I respected at the time that she wouldn't

get enough calcium that way. (I think the billinghurst ratios are something

like 15% organs, 80% RMBS? - its been a while since I've read that book.) I

also noticed she was getting very fertile - heavier heats followed by false

pregnancies and dragging stuffed litters around the house for weeks.

In hindsight, it probably would have been better to drop her down to a

percentage that prevented the false pregnancies but still kept a significant

amount of organs in her diet. I used to show her, and that is the only

reason she is still intact. We haven't showed the last two seasons and I'm

now thinking of getting her spayed. I'm just still not too sure about

putting my precious little baby under for something as major as that.

-Lana

BTW, what do you mean by more " accepted " - accepted by whom? By your dog?

> She doesn't like 50% organ meats? Are you feeding her a commercial raw

> food

> that's 50% organs? If so, which one? If not, what exactly is in her food

> when it's 50% organs?

>

> Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Dogs are scavengers: they eat what is available. But, I do see your point -

not many breeds would be on a high fish diet. Especially not a Jack

Terrier.

The only reason I am concerned is because she has been mostly healthy her

life. I, as someone who hasn't been so lucky, would gladly dose myself left

and right with it - but her, who has almost always had a plethora of organs

and sunlight... it just seems inappropriate to be dosing her with CLO at

all - even with her diet being low liver for a while. The only reason I

started any supplimentation was because of the improvement I saw with

feeding raw liver.

How much Blue Ice would a 12 lb dog get a day?

-Lana

>I can't get good organic liver, so she's been getting

> > Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure about

> giving

> > her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it. As of

> > tomorrow she will be back on her usual raw diet, but with the 50% organ

> > allotment that she had last year.

>

> Since dogs don't eat fish, why would you want a cod liver oil with a

> high PUFA-to-vitamin A ratio instead of a low one?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

On 9/27/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

> In time, I came to believe the fly biting wasn't related to

> seizuring, rather that it was, in the context of her personality and the

> difficult background she'd come from, more likely to be canine

> obsessive-compulsive disorder.

I have thought of this possibility too. When she was a puppy my family used

to play with a laser pointer with her. I used to always scold them and tell

them they shouldn't because I had heard about how it could cause canine

OCD. But they just did it anyway behind my back. She's been nuts about

flashlights since. The day before this got as bad as it is now, she was

chasing a fly. The fly was around one of my compact flourescents. She

chased that damn fly for ages until it flew off and she kept chasing

something else. I stopped her when I realized the fly was gone, but now I'm

thinking about it, perhaps she damaged her eyes?

Why did you suspect the rosemary oil? I've wondered if that's why Mokie

> sometimes doesn't seem to tolerate Blue Ice CLO. But I do continue to give

> it to her. She has on and off digestive issues, but I haven't been able to

> pin it on the Blue Ice since she sometimes has good stools while on it and

> sometimes not.

A holistic vet mentioned it as a possible cause of the flybiting. She

didn't say why.

I can't get good organic liver, so she's been getting

> >Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure about

> giving

> >her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it.

>

> It also has a lot of vitamin D in it, if you mean you're worried about

> toxicity, and the D helps lower the toxicity threshold of the A

> significantly. Did you read Chris' vitamin A article in the last Wise

> Traditions? He discusses this issue there.

Very true. I forgot about that.

I don't get Wise Traditions (is there somewhere I could sign up online?)

In any event, the NRC, which makes the nutrient requirements of dogs

> recommendations which everyone uses to determine dogs' nutrient

> requirements

> (probably to the dogs' detrmient) has no idea how much vitamin A is

> required

> by dogs for *optimal* health. They only have an idea how much *might*

> prevent deficiency in certain test subjects.

Well, I guess that's positive as it means they haven't found an upper limit

yet.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

>

> A holistic vet mentioned it as a possible cause of the flybiting. She

> didn't say why.

>

I meant to add, I hadn't told the vet she was getting rosemary oil.

Actually, I was puzzled for about a week until one day I realized it was in

the food.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Emma wrote:

> > According to the table of phenylalanine and tyrosine foods on pgs. 84

> > and 85 in The Edge Effect by R. Braverman M.D. 6-8 ozs. of wild

> > game has 1.5 " gms. " of tyrosine and in the same portion is 2.6 " gms. "

> > of phenylalanine.

>

> Wow, good thing I don't need to care about amines! But was that meat

> aged, dried or <gasp> fermented?

Emma wrote:

Ok folks, before we get carried away on this one, tyrosine and

phenylalanine are amino acids, not amines.

The quantities of amino acids in a food are irrelevant to a problem

with biogenic amines.

If you're talking biogenic amines being problematic to and with

undermethylation, high histamine, I understand that. How can degradation of

amino acids into amines be normal, as you posted, if a problem with amines

makes amines relevant at all?

These are some normal degradations of amino acids into amines:

histidine > histamine

ornithine > putrescine > spermidine

lysine > cadaverine

arginine > agmatine > putrescine

tryptophan > 5-HTP > serotonin

tryptophan > tryptamine

glutamic acid > glutamate > GABA

tyrosine > tyramine

tyrosine > levodopa > dopamine

phenylalanine > phenylethylamine

You asked

My original point was:

Did paleolithic people eat more than 50mg of histamine and tyramine on

a regular basis?

Tyrosine they definitely did to produce high catecholamines needed to survive.

Thats more like overmethylation, low histamine, high dopamine and

norepenepherine.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Why don't dogs eat fish? Mine do. I feed raw and even though I don't feed

them much fish, they do eat it.

Allyn

PRIORITY INVESTMENTS N' KOLLATERAL,INC.

ALLYN FERRIS

PRESIDENT

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From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:51 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Epilepsy (was: amines)

Dogs are scavengers: they eat what is available. But, I do see your point -

not many breeds would be on a high fish diet. Especially not a Jack

Terrier.

The only reason I am concerned is because she has been mostly healthy her

life. I, as someone who hasn't been so lucky, would gladly dose myself left

and right with it - but her, who has almost always had a plethora of organs

and sunlight... it just seems inappropriate to be dosing her with CLO at

all - even with her diet being low liver for a while. The only reason I

started any supplimentation was because of the improvement I saw with

feeding raw liver.

How much Blue Ice would a 12 lb dog get a day?

-Lana

>I can't get good organic liver, so she's been getting

> > Carlson's CLO until my shipment comes in - I'm a little unsure about

> giving

> > her the greener pastures because it has so much vitamin A in it. As of

> > tomorrow she will be back on her usual raw diet, but with the 50% organ

> > allotment that she had last year.

>

> Since dogs don't eat fish, why would you want a cod liver oil with a

> high PUFA-to-vitamin A ratio instead of a low one?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

>

>It was home made raw, and the organ portion was usually around 50% heart,

>25% liver, 12% kidney, 12% giblets.

Sometimes more liver and less heart,

>depending on availablility and whether or not she was turning it away.

>Sometimes I'd swap the kidney and giblets for lung if available. Mostly

>beef and chicken but I got whatever I could that was " exotic " when it was

>around.

Factory farm beef and chicken or small farm beef and chicken?

>

>If it were up to Jez, she would probably eat lots of organs. Actually, the

>reason I had originally upped it was her personal preference. But I was

>told by a lot of raw people who I respected at the time that she wouldn't

>get enough calcium that way. (I think the billinghurst ratios are

>something

>like 15% organs, 80% RMBS? - its been a while since I've read that

>book.)

A lot of us don't agree with Billinghurst's percentages. Nonetheless I think

a diet of 50% organ meats could be deficient in calcium and several other

nutrients found in bone. What was the other 50%? All RMBs? Or a mix of RMBs

and muscle meat?

Suze

[Guest guest]

>I don't get Wise Traditions (is there somewhere I could sign up online?)

Yep. http://www.westonaprice.org/membershipform.pdf I can't recommend it

highly enough. The quarterly journal alone is well worth the membership fee.

It was always interesting before, but now that is writing articles for

it regularly, it's exponentially improved, in that his research thus far has

been extraordinarily comprehensive and revealing. His upcomimg vit. D

article is groundbreaking, IMO. I have no doubt that his research is going

to put the WAPF on the map in the research community.

BTW, if you send in a membership app before the conference in November, I'd

greatly appreciate it if you put my name at the bottom where it says

" Membership Introduction by " . The foundation is having a fall membership

drive and if anyone refers 15 new members, they get their conference fees

waived. I think I could be close because my chapter gave out about 50

membership apps this past weekend with my name on itat a booth we had at a

large ag fair, but I think only a small percent will actually sign up. I'm

keeping my fingers crossed though.

>

>

>In any event, the NRC, which makes the nutrient requirements of dogs

>> recommendations which everyone uses to determine dogs' nutrient

>> requirements

>> (probably to the dogs' detrmient) has no idea how much vitamin A is

>> required

>> by dogs for *optimal* health. They only have an idea how much *might*

>> prevent deficiency in certain test subjects.

>

>

>Well, I guess that's positive as it means they haven't found an upper limit

>yet.

They've found several, but I covered that in my other post. My point here is

simply that they are clueless as to what the *optimal* amount is for any

given dog.

Suze

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I got that and printed it out and tried to fax it in dozens of times

but the fax number wouldn't answer. Is it possible the wrong fax number is

on the form?

-Lana

Yep. http://www.westonaprice.org/membershipform.pdf I can't recommend it

> highly enough. The quarterly journal alone is well worth the membership

> fee.

>

[Guest guest]

> Factory farm beef and chicken or small farm beef and chicken?

Mostly factory. I'm still working on combineing our food sources. She

doesn't like to chew organ meats (She would never eat liver if I didn't cut

it up for her) - but would gladly munch on bones for hours. So she gets

organs ground. Instead of processing them myself I get the organs pre

ground from Oma's.

> A lot of us don't agree with Billinghurst's percentages. Nonetheless I

> think

> a diet of 50% organ meats could be deficient in calcium and several other

> nutrients found in bone. What was the other 50%? All RMBs? Or a mix of

> RMBs

> and muscle meat?

Pretty much all RMBs - sometimes they were meaty, but always had significant

bone.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

>

>Yeah, I got that and printed it out and tried to fax it in dozens of times

>but the fax number wouldn't answer. Is it possible the wrong fax number is

>on the form?

I don't know, but it's the same fax number that's all over the site. You

could try again or contact the webmaster and ask: webmaster@...

Suze

[Guest guest]

>

>

>> Factory farm beef and chicken or small farm beef and chicken?

>

>

>Mostly factory.

Have you considered the possibility that some of the toxins or hormones in

this food might be a contributing factor?

>> A lot of us don't agree with Billinghurst's percentages. Nonetheless I

>> think

>> a diet of 50% organ meats could be deficient in calcium and several other

>> nutrients found in bone. What was the other 50%? All RMBs? Or a mix of

>> RMBs

>> and muscle meat?

>

>

>Pretty much all RMBs - sometimes they were meaty, but always had

>significant

>bone.

I wonder then if she's getting adequate protein? I think large ungulate bone

is around 20% by volume (or less) of the whole animal, but not all of it's

edible. The large bones aren't. So, the ancestral diet may have been much

lower in bone than many BARFers feed. It sounds like it's possible her

meat/organ/bone ratio is off with bone being too high and meat too low. I'm

not sure if this would have anything to do with her seizures simply because

I don't know enough about epilepsy.

Suze

[Guest guest]

Emma wrote:

> I've sent links to " this guy " at least 3 times in response to your

posts.

I sometimes wonder whether I'm at a cultural disadvantage here

linguistically. It's normal for a British person of my age to use a

lot of Americanisms in our language, but I don't think we use them in

the same way as they are used in America. When I use a phrase like

" this guy " , I am just saying " this person " , not " some dude " , or " some

bloke " or " the cat's mother " in a dismissive way.

A few years back I stayed with some friends in the states for a couple

of months. We had numerous linguistic/meaning clashes. For example, it

seems to be a thing in the states to use the phrase " isn't it? " as a

way of being sarcastic or mocking. But in the UK we don't use it that

way. So when I sympathetically used the phrase " isn't it? " in

agreement with a friend's problems, she was not happy with me!

Wanita: So I mistook what wasn't meant to be sarcastic. Don't know your age. I'm

likely near double yours, which makes no difference. Cultural diversity does. If

I'd realized there was a difference I would have asked for your definition

first. I've corresponded with a friend in the U.K. for a few years. We've never

had this difference come up.

Glutamate and glutamic acid are virtually identical in structure.

Glutamate is the anion of glutamic acid - it just has a hydrogen atom

missing so they are fairly interchangeable in the body. Incidentally,

glutamate and glutamic acid are amino acids rather than amines, it's

just that they're amino acids that act as neurotransmitters.

Glutamate and *glutamine* are two different but similarly structured

amino acids. Glutamine can be converted to glutamate or back. They can

both produce GABA under the right circumstances. Unlike glutamate,

glutamine is not an excitatory neurotransmitter.

I guess this was just a confusion between glutamate/glutamine?

Wanita: We've had this discussion here and there's no confusion with me ofn

difference. Didn't see glutamine> GABA in your amine chart. If it is only amines

considered excitatory, that explains it.

Sorry Wanita, I must have missed this, I have been trying to cope with

a flood of messages and a few have been slipping through. Yes, one of

the ADHD genes is a dopamine receptor mutation, so this makes sense.

Wanita: Know you've been busy replying to the volume in the amines thread

Iirc,

> you've said before your entire family has CFS and takes acetaminophen

> but you stopped.

Paracetamol? We didn't take it every day. It was just the household

medication of choice for headaches.

Wanita: Saw online that U.K.s paracetamol is acetaminophen (Tylenol) here.

You've also said you've spent a lot of money on

> supplements that didn't work and were wondering about cysteine.

Cystine in preference to cysteine, as it is less likely to produce

both toxicity and deficiency. It is a sulphur containing amino acid

required for the sulphation detox pathway that is often problematic in

food chemical intolerance.

> Did you

> know NAC is the treatment for acetaminophen poisoning?

This makes sense. Acetaminophen is used by scientists to analyse

whether you have a poor sulphation capacity, as it very rapidly uses

up the liver's store of sulphate. So, regular acetaminophen results in

food chemical intolerance symptoms.

It's interesting that gluten should give you hypnic jerks. It has a

very high glutamate to other amino acids ratio (hence the similarity

in names - glutamate was first isolated from gluten, I think).

Wanita: Don't quite understand why you reply to my options or possibilities from

what you've said with lessons. If I didn't have an understanding of whatever it

is, what it does and how it works I wouldn't post it.

> Ketones and brain sounds more like acetylcholine to Alzheimer's than

GABA to seizures.

I'm not sure what you meant by this, but ketones act as inhibitors and

also raise GABA levels.

Wanita: Alzheimer's has been thrown about by a few researchers as a third type

of diabetes, only of the brain. Ketosis isn't good for diabetics.

The consultant doesn't understand why my partner only has to take a

child's dose of valproate to control his seizures. What he doesn't

know is that my partner low-carbs (I don't even know if the consultant

knows about the ketogenic diet for epilepsy).

Wanita: You said low carb before not ketogenic. Aware of ketogenic diet for

epilepsy.

My questions have only been to fit amines into what I've researched and learned

offlist. Not to depart from my " whatever works " motto. Braverman does go with no

salicylates for serotonin.

Granted things have changed in my lifetime. Animal raising, slaughtering and

processing isn't a science and art any more. Hanging meat isn't as controlled as

it used to be at the local butcher's from a local raiser. From your day's menu

posted I'd be wishing I could function because of the milk and dairy alone

depending on what the cow had eaten. Not quite as severe as kefir. With gluten

back to square one. One man's food is another man's poison.

Wanita