Re: what do you eat? - bacon (was Guidance for minimising amines in foods)

[Guest guest]

--- Emma Davies wrote:

> <snip>

.... Bacon is full of all kinds of horrible things.

.... Figures! Must be why I like it. At least I've been buying

" uncured " bacon that says it's from " humanely raised " pigs that were

" not treated with antibiotics or growth hormones " . And I only eat

about 4 or 5 strips a week with scrambled eggs!

<I know - more bad stuff from scrambling the eggs and from including

the bacon fat with the eggs - love that delicious brown stuff it makes>.

But wait! It says it has " sodium lactate (from corn source), celery

juice concentrate, and lactic acid starter culture " . Seems like I

read this was a sneaky way to get nitrites without having to say

they're added.

<...and probably more amines to boot!>

> Well, most foods contain some stuff that is bad for you ...

Yeah, I guess choose your poisons carefully - we're all gonna die

[Guest guest]

> It says it has " sodium lactate (from corn source), celery

> juice concentrate, and lactic acid starter culture " . Seems like I

> read this was a sneaky way to get nitrites without having to say

> they're added.

,

Whoa--what's that you say? Will you expound? Anyone else heard of this?

B.

[Guest guest]

On 10/2/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> Whoa--what's that you say? Will you expound? Anyone else heard of this?

*raises hand*

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

--- B. " downwardog7 " <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

>

> --- <oz4caster@> wrote:

> > It says it has " sodium lactate (from corn source), celery

> > juice concentrate, and lactic acid starter culture " . Seems like I

> > read this was a sneaky way to get nitrites without having to say

> > they're added.

>

> Whoa--what's that you say? Will you expound?

You would have to ask!!! This is why I could never be a doctor - I

can't remember where I read it. But, I through the magic of google I

found this article which is pertinent:

http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/vegetables/beets.htm

Caution: 1)Beets (as well as celery, eggplant, lettuce, radishes,

spinach, collard and turnip greens) are known to be nitrogen

collectors and contain nitrates that convert naturally into nitrites

in the stomach, where some of the nitrites combine with amines to form

nitrosamines, known carcinogens. This natural chemical reaction does

not pose a problem for the healthy adult, but can for infants if the

food is cooked and then left standing at room temperature for any

length of time. This causes the microorganisms that convert nitrates

to nitrites to begin to multiply, ultimately increasing the amount of

the nitrites in the food.

2) Because the leaves contain oxalic acid, they should not be eaten to

excess as they could interfere with calcium metabolism. Oxalates bind

calcium, which may ultimately contribute to kidney stones.

<end - snuck some oxalate info in as well >

I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

[Guest guest]

> I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

> nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

>

,

Wow. That's what's in all the nitrite-free meats and sausages at the

Whole Foods deli-meats counter.

*shakes fist*

Semper vigilans, man!

B.

[Guest guest]

> > I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

> > nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

> >

> ,

>

> Wow. That's what's in all the nitrite-free meats and sausages at the

> Whole Foods deli-meats counter.

>

> *shakes fist*

>

> Semper vigilans, man!

> B.

>

>

It's also in all the Applegate stuff us moms like to use for quick

meals on occasion.

*shakes fist, too* Grrr.

--

http://www.PraiseMoves.com

The Christian Alternative to Yoga

[Guest guest]

It is not in all the Applegate stuff. I eat their bacon and it has only

salt and cane sugar.

Allyn

PRIORITY INVESTMENTS N' KOLLATERAL,INC.

ALLYN FERRIS

PRESIDENT

<mailto:AFERRIS@...> AFERRIS@...

<http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=4548A+WEST+VILLAGE+DR. & csz=T

AMPA%2C+FL+33624 & country=us> 4548A WEST VILLAGE DR.

TAMPA, FL 33624

tel: 813-961-1500

fax: 813-996-9571

mobile: 813-391-7965

<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=0 & v0=0 & k0=0> Add me to your address book...

<http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this?

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Steph

Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:29 PM

Subject: Re: Re: what do you eat? - bacon (was Guidance for minimising

amines in foods)

> > I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

> > nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

> >

> ,

>

> Wow. That's what's in all the nitrite-free meats and sausages at the

> Whole Foods deli-meats counter.

>

> *shakes fist*

>

> Semper vigilans, man!

> B.

>

>

It's also in all the Applegate stuff us moms like to use for quick

meals on occasion.

*shakes fist, too* Grrr.

--

http://www.PraiseMo <http://www.PraiseMoves.com> ves.com

The Christian Alternative to Yoga

[Guest guest]

On 10/3/06, ALLYN FERRIS wrote:

> It is not in all the Applegate stuff. I eat their bacon and it has only

> salt and cane sugar.

> Allyn

>

>

>

Oh, okay. Well, it is in the grassfed beef hot dogs I was so excited

about and have been giving my kids twice a week lately. :-(

Hmm, I also just realized that there is paprika in them as well and

I'm supposed to be avoiding nightshades. So much for those for me.

The annoying thing is that Applegate just added the starter culture in

the past year because stores were complaining about the shelf life of

their products. The huge amount of moms complaining to them did

nothing to persuade them to take it back out. :-(

Steph

[Guest guest]

ALLYN FERRIS wrote:

>It is not in all the Applegate stuff. I eat their bacon and it has only

>salt and cane sugar.

>Allyn

>

>

>

>

>

That may just be a matter of time. I've had a *long, protracted, and

angst-ridden* discussion with Applegate about the LASC issue, since my

children can't eat it. I spoke with her about just what Applegate

products we could eat and the consensus between the two of us was that

there was nothing that we could eat because eventually *all* of

Applegate will have the stuff. It is just a matter of the warehouses

running out of the " old " inventory before the new stuff starts showing

up. She told me that the LASC is in response to merchants who

complained about the expensively short shelf life of the product in the

cold cases--dismissing the viability of selling it out of a

freezer....duh!--and that Applegate probably wasn't open to discussion

with consumers about reversing this move. However, she said the same

thing about the switch from honey to cane sugar, when I warned her that

there would be a strong backlash from the ASD community following the

SCD plan. Within two months, they had switched back to honey. Heh.

I'd *love* seeing a WAP backlash force them to reverse the LASC trend....

--s, whose children still miss the beef hotdogs

[Guest guest]

The book " Charcuterie " says that ascorbic acid prevents

nitrites/nitrates from becoming nitrilosides, which are the harmful

compounds. People have been consuming nitrites for ages, as it's

common in certain green leafy vegetables, but the ascorbic acid also

in them always kept it from being a problem. By the way, there was

a spill or something in one of the midwestern states that caused the

lettuce grown there to have incredibly high amounts of nitrates. I

read a warning not to eat it if you knew where it was from, sorry so

vague but it was awhile ago.

>

> --- In , " " <oz4caster@>

wrote:

>

> > I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

> > nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

> >

> ,

>

> Wow. That's what's in all the nitrite-free meats and sausages at

the

> Whole Foods deli-meats counter.

>

> *shakes fist*

>

> Semper vigilans, man!

> B.

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I won't buy it anymore if they change it.

Allyn

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Suzanne Noakes

Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:22 AM

Subject: Re: Re: what do you eat? - bacon (was Guidance for minimising

amines in foods)

ALLYN FERRIS wrote:

>It is not in all the Applegate stuff. I eat their bacon and it has only

>salt and cane sugar.

>Allyn

>

>

>

>

>

That may just be a matter of time. I've had a *long, protracted, and

angst-ridden* discussion with Applegate about the LASC issue, since my

children can't eat it. I spoke with her about just what Applegate

products we could eat and the consensus between the two of us was that

there was nothing that we could eat because eventually *all* of

Applegate will have the stuff. It is just a matter of the warehouses

running out of the " old " inventory before the new stuff starts showing

up. She told me that the LASC is in response to merchants who

complained about the expensively short shelf life of the product in the

cold cases--dismissing the viability of selling it out of a

freezer....duh!--and that Applegate probably wasn't open to discussion

with consumers about reversing this move. However, she said the same

thing about the switch from honey to cane sugar, when I warned her that

there would be a strong backlash from the ASD community following the

SCD plan. Within two months, they had switched back to honey. Heh.

I'd *love* seeing a WAP backlash force them to reverse the LASC trend....

--s, whose children still miss the beef hotdogs

[Guest guest]

On 10/3/06, Suzanne Noakes wrote:

>

>that Applegate probably wasn't open to discussion

> with consumers about reversing this move. However, she said the same

> thing about the switch from honey to cane sugar, when I warned her that

> there would be a strong backlash from the ASD community following the

> SCD plan. Within two months, they had switched back to honey. Heh.

> I'd *love* seeing a WAP backlash force them to reverse the LASC trend....

>

>

Earlier, I said, " The huge amount of moms complaining to them did

nothing to persuade them to take it back out. "

Whoops, that was lots of moms complaining about sugar, only a few

about LASC. For some reason, the SCD people weren't interested in

what the starter culture is or does. If someone could explain to them

how it could harm their kids then we might get somewhere. :-)

Steph

[Guest guest]

Steph wrote:

>Earlier, I said, " The huge amount of moms complaining to them did

>nothing to persuade them to take it back out. "

>

>Whoops, that was lots of moms complaining about sugar, only a few

>about LASC.

>

I understood what you meant.

>For some reason, the SCD people weren't interested in

>what the starter culture is or does. If someone could explain to them

>how it could harm their kids then we might get somewhere. :-)

>

>Steph

>

>

>

I know! I was hoping that somewhere in the SCD would be a doctrine that

indicated that corn-derived products would send the whole diet into a

tailspin. But it didn't materialize. I sent a scathing letter to

Applegate, asking them exactly where they were going to draw the line in

tweaking their product for shelf life and maximum profit margin (Why

stop at cane sugar? Corn syrup is even *cheaper*!!) before they ended

up being Meyer and an overpriced Meyer at that. Having them

turn on their heels in the wake of consumer response would satisfy me on

quite a few levels.

--s

[Guest guest]

What is " the SCD people " and what is the harm of this starter culture?

>

> >For some reason, the SCD people weren't interested in

> >what the starter culture is or does. If someone could explain to

them

> >how it could harm their kids then we might get somewhere. :-)

> >

> >Steph

> >

> >

> >

> I know! I was hoping that somewhere in the SCD would be a doctrine

that

> indicated that corn-derived products would send the whole diet into a

> tailspin. But it didn't materialize.

[Guest guest]

Savin wrote:

>What is " the SCD people "

>

The Specific Carbohydrate Diet per Elaine Gottschall. Veddy popular

with people in the autistic community, who wield quite a bit of consumer

clout.

>and what is the harm of this starter culture?

>

>

>

>

>

Corn, for those who are bothered about such things.

--s, wondering if playing the GMO card would carry any weight.....

[Guest guest]

> >and what is the harm of this starter culture?

> >

> >

> >

This came up earlier in this thread:

[ wrote]:

> > It says it has " sodium lactate (from corn source), celery

> > juice concentrate, and lactic acid starter culture " . Seems like I

> > read this was a sneaky way to get nitrites without having to say

> > they're added.

>

> [ wrote]: Whoa--what's that you say? Will you expound?

[, again]: You would have to ask!!! This is why I could never be

a doctor - I

can't remember where I read it. But, I through the magic of google I

found this article which is pertinent:

http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/vegetables/beets.htm

Caution: 1)Beets (as well as celery, eggplant, lettuce, radishes,

spinach, collard and turnip greens) are known to be nitrogen

collectors and contain nitrates that convert naturally into nitrites

in the stomach, where some of the nitrites combine with amines to form

nitrosamines, known carcinogens. This natural chemical reaction does

not pose a problem for the healthy adult, but can for infants if the

food is cooked and then left standing at room temperature for any

length of time. This causes the microorganisms that convert nitrates

to nitrites to begin to multiply, ultimately increasing the amount of

the nitrites in the food.

<snip>

I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

[steph here]:

According to NT, nitrates are " potent carcinogens " that particularly

cause cancers in the digestive system.

So, here we are thinking that we are avoiding hot dogs and such with

nitrites added, when in reality we are still possibly getting them -

just in disguise. Applegate Farms did not used to use the starter

culture, but added it in the past year so that their products would

have a longer shelf life. :-(

Steph

[Guest guest]

Steph,

> According to NT, nitrates are " potent carcinogens " that particularly

> cause cancers in the digestive system.

I don't think nitrates are carcinogenic themselves, but they can

convert to nitrites, which can in turn convert to nitrosamines, which

are carcinogens, if I'm remember the sequence right. Vtiamin C

prevents the latter step I've read. Haven't looked into it too

deeply.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>> > I'm guessing that the " lactic acid starter culture " converts the

>> > nitrates in the celery juice into nitrites.

>> >

>> ,

>>

>> Wow. That's what's in all the nitrite-free meats and sausages at the

>> Whole Foods deli-meats counter.

>>

>> *shakes fist*

>>

>> Semper vigilans, man!

>> B.

>>

>>

>

>It's also in all the Applegate stuff us moms like to use for quick

>meals on occasion.

>

>*shakes fist, too* Grrr.

>

>

I'm not sure what all the panic is about. I mean, is everyone going to stop

eating " beets (as well as celery, eggplant, lettuce, radishes, spinach,

collard and turnip greens) " because they are nitrogen collectors and contain

" ...nitrates that convert naturally into nitrites in the stomach, where some

of the nitrites combine with amines to form nitrosamines, known

carcinogens. " as posted? I think it may be oversimplistic to think

that just because one eats one of these veggies or meat that uses a lactic

acid starter culture from one of them will be at greater risk of developing

cancer from nitrosamines.

I eat a lot of salads and frankly have no intent on cutting back on my

lettuce or spinach consumption.

For instance, it's possible that these plants are nitrate " collectors " due

to conventional NPK (the " N " stands for nitrogen) soil fertilization. Are

organic, biodynamic and/or high brix versions of these plants nitrate

collectors?

And how much vitamin C does it take to prevent the conversion to

nitrosamines? Are there other mitigating factors? The quote posted

said only that " some " of the the nitrites combine with amines to form

nitrosamines.

How much nitrates are actually in the meat products mentioned? I have a

couple of Applegate farm meat products here and they both list the lactic

acid starter culture as the second to last ingredient, ahead of garlic. IOW,

there's very little of it in the product.

I don't know, but this information hardly seems sufficient in order to

become worried about the products promoting cancer.

Suze

[Guest guest]

> I don't know, but this information hardly seems sufficient in order to

> become worried about the products promoting cancer.

Suze,

So, I'm a little paranoid...so?

*adjusts tin-foil hat*

B.

/jaunty angle

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

>> I don't know, but this information hardly seems sufficient in order to

>> become worried about the products promoting cancer.

>

>Suze,

>

>So, I'm a little paranoid...so?

>

>*adjusts tin-foil hat*

>

> B.

>

>/jaunty angle

LOL! Either that, or I'm too cavalier. And/or have no idea what I'm talking

about.

Suze

[Guest guest]

--- Suze Fisher wrote:

> ... how much vitamin C does it take to prevent the conversion to

> nitrosamines?

According to this lengthy book on vitamin C:

===================================================================

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Cancer/good2.htm

Mechanisms of Vitamin C's Anti-Cancer Abilities

Vitamin C's anti-cancer properties are brought about by a number of

modalities of this versatile nutrient:

1 Scavenges cancer-causing free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide to

prevent lipid peroxidation and destruction of cells;

2 Neutralizes carcinogenic chemicals such as nitrosamine and nitrites;

3 Regenerates active vitamin E (another potent antioxidant) in lipid

membranes;

4 Enhancement of lymphocyte function and rapid mobilization of phagocytes;

5 Potent anti-viral and anti-bacterial activity;

6 Enhancement of IgA, IgG and IgM antibody levels;

7 Modulation of interferon synthesis;

8 Increases synthesis of prostaglandin PGE1 (anti-inflammatory);

inhibits PGE2 (inflammatory)

===================================================================

Item 2 implies that both nitrosamines and nitrates are carcinogenic,

but doesn't say how much C is needed to prevent effects. Also from

this same source:

===================================================================

* et al, Wexham Park Hospital, Slough, studied the ability of

Vitamin C to reduce the nitrosation of foods in 62 patients at

high-risk of gastric cancer. Treatment with 1g Vitamin C four times

daily resulted in a reduction in nitrate-reducing bacteria and in

nitrite and N-nitroso concentrations, demonstrating that Vitamin C

reduces cancer-causing nitrite and N-nitroso compounds of gastric juices;

===================================================================

> How much nitrates are actually in the meat products mentioned?

I'm wondering the same thing. My guess would be if the shelf life is

comparable to products that have nitrites added directly, then the

amount of nitrites produced by the celery juice/lactic acid culture

would likely be comparable.

It's going to take me a while to read all the chapters in this on-line

book (link above), but it looks interesting and worth the read.

Seems like one thing always leads to another

[Guest guest]

and Suze,

> > How much nitrates are actually in the meat products mentioned?

> I'm wondering the same thing. My guess would be if the shelf life is

> comparable to products that have nitrites added directly, then the

> amount of nitrites produced by the celery juice/lactic acid culture

> would likely be comparable.

I would also wonder how much are produced in all the other lactic acid

fermented foods we value.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Cabbage contains vitamin C already, so sauerkraut is ok, and some of

the cultures actually make more ascorbic acid. Does milk contain

ascorbic acid? I think I recall hearing it did, but not sure.

>

> and Suze,

>

> > > How much nitrates are actually in the meat products mentioned?

>

> > I'm wondering the same thing. My guess would be if the shelf

life is

> > comparable to products that have nitrites added directly, then

the

> > amount of nitrites produced by the celery juice/lactic acid

culture

> > would likely be comparable.

>

> I would also wonder how much are produced in all the other lactic

acid

> fermented foods we value.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

I think the naturally occurring nitrates in our ferments are part of

the root of adding them to the meat products. Have you ever

marinated meat in kimchi juice or sauerkraut for a day or more? It

turns it pink (even when cooked). That's from the nitrates in the

kimchi/sauerkraut. It really makes the meat taste good, and as long

as the ascorbic acid is in there, is harmless. Treating meats that

way actually breaks down some of the hard-to-digest parts making

digestion of them easier on the gut.

>

> and Suze,

>

> > > How much nitrates are actually in the meat products mentioned?

>

> > I'm wondering the same thing. My guess would be if the shelf

life is

> > comparable to products that have nitrites added directly, then

the

> > amount of nitrites produced by the celery juice/lactic acid

culture

> > would likely be comparable.

>

> I would also wonder how much are produced in all the other lactic

acid

> fermented foods we value.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>