RE: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

[Guest guest]

Yes - this is what I've heard all along.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Parashis <artpages@...>

> I was calling Organic Pastures to put in a cheese order and while on

> hold the blog said they are fed grass and organic grain. When the order

> taker came back on I asked her about it and she said yes, that they had

> to in order to keep up with the ever expanding demand.

>

> I have noticed also that, unlike a few years ago, there is no cream on

> top.

>

> On Jun 21, 2007, at 7:18 AM, Gene Schwartz wrote:

>

> >> I know that Mark McAfee from Organic Pastures who is also the largest

> >> raw

> >> milk producer in CA is 100% grass fed. So, if I was in CA and could

> >> buy

> >> milk at the store I would look for his milk.

> >>

> >> JMO

> >>

> >> All7yn>>>>>>

> >>

> >> Can you verify that? I have seen several posts over the years

> >> insisting that

> >> Organic Pastures does use some grain. There is nothing on their site

> >> about it,

> >> but I’d really like to find out if this is misinformation. This is

> >> the only

> >> raw milk that I can get here in San Francisco, other than occasionally

> >> Claravale, which most definitely uses grain.

> Parashis

> artpages@...

> zine:

> artpagesonline.com

>

> portfolio:

> http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering if part of the problem is that the fields are brown. It doesn't

rain in Calif in the summer!!

jafa

Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

From what I can tell from the taste of the milk: Claravale's pasture

must be

bitter and what grain they are using isn't enough to sweeten the milk up to

a " normal " level. The milk tastes very grassy, so I have a hard time

believing the grain is anything more than supplemental. This milk must be

really bitter without grain feeding...

-Lana

On 6/21/07, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

>

>

> Claravale, as I recall, used to have on their site, a response to the

> question of whether they used grain. They said that they did (I forget the

> exact details) and claimed that it was because it tasted better. When I went

> to their site yesterday, I didn't see this. But I thought that it was known

> that they feed their cows grain.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am little disappointed in that especially because of all their talk of

100% pastured etc. and that is also what it says on their website. Oh well,

I live in Florida and don't buy my milk from them but I still think it is a

big compromise to get milk from cows fed even a little grain. I know people

will disagree with that but again, that's why we need to know what we are

getting so we can make our own decisions.

Allyn

Re: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

Yes - this is what I've heard all along.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Parashis <artpages@...>

> I was calling Organic Pastures to put in a cheese order and while on

> hold the blog said they are fed grass and organic grain. When the order

> taker came back on I asked her about it and she said yes, that they had

> to in order to keep up with the ever expanding demand.

>

> I have noticed also that, unlike a few years ago, there is no cream on

> top.

>

> On Jun 21, 2007, at 7:18 AM, Gene Schwartz wrote:

>

> >> I know that Mark McAfee from Organic Pastures who is also the largest

> >> raw

> >> milk producer in CA is 100% grass fed. So, if I was in CA and could

> >> buy

> >> milk at the store I would look for his milk.

> >>

> >> JMO

> >>

> >> All7yn>>>>>>

> >>

> >> Can you verify that? I have seen several posts over the years

> >> insisting that

> >> Organic Pastures does use some grain. There is nothing on their site

> >> about it,

> >> but I'd really like to find out if this is misinformation. This is

> >> the only

> >> raw milk that I can get here in San Francisco, other than occasionally

> >> Claravale, which most definitely uses grain.

> Parashis

> artpages@...

> zine:

> artpagesonline.com

>

> portfolio:

> http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There are some farmers who still bale hay using the small square bales

(like us). We prefer this type as do our hay customers. The small

bales have less of a tendency to mold (if dried and stored correctly)

and are easier to move around (a tractor with a bale spear is not

needed to lift them). Plus, we have the equipment to make small bales

- it's old, but it's trusty (and rusty:)).

However, it is challenging to get help to bale hay this way. We have

done it by ourselves, but to do tie up the whole family with haying

while chores still need to be done as well as preparing good

traditional food to keep our energy levels up... well, it makes a full

plate that much more full. We recently scheduled a young person to

help, prepared for it (mowed acres and acres of pasture, let it dry)

only to have our help cancel at the last minute. So, I understand why

most farmers have gone to the big round bales. Round bales can be done

by one person. No human help is needed. However, the investment in the

extra machinery involved is definitely also a consideration.

Baling small bales is quite the workout. In fact, come to think of it,

one could save money by skipping the gym and getting their workout on

a sustainable farm (as I'm quite certain a farmer would not charge for

workout's on his farm ). We are in the middle of baling right now

and are grateful a friend and his son from the city are enjoying

" working out " with us!

>today farmers fold their hay into gigantic

> bales. They may weigh a ton or more. And farmers have pointed out to

me that the

> inner of these huge bales is stinky, moldy, rotting hay. It's baled

green. But,

> the surprisingly thing they tell me is that their cows just LOVE the

taste of

> that interior (moldy) hay.

> . </HTML>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- , " pilgrimswayside " <john@...> wrote:

> Baling small bales is quite the workout. In fact, come to think of it,

> one could save money by skipping the gym and getting their workout on

> a sustainable farm (as I'm quite certain a farmer would not charge for

> workout's on his farm ). We are in the middle of baling right now

> and are grateful a friend and his son from the city are enjoying

> " working out " with us!

, this brings back memories for me. When I was a teenager I used

to help my grandfather bale hay and alfalfa. Moving the bales was

great exercise, although I didn't think of it that way then I was

the one who loaded the bales on the wagon and then unloaded them at

the barn. Out in the field there was always a nice breeze, but at the

barn there was no wind and I used to get drenched in sweat. I also

remember my grandfather showing me bales that were too moist and had

turned black with mold. He wouldn't feed them to his cows, though I

don't remember what he did with them.

[Guest guest]

, I totally related to your post! I learned the first year we

bought our place that we were at the bottom of the heap when it came

to help with hay. Ours got done last, after the rain came, when all

the " help " left before to get someone else's hay in. After a few

times having acres of hay ruined, we bought our own equipment.

Since we didn't have a large family, or outside help, we used small

round bales. We could never beat the rain otherwise. The round

bales are much easier to move in winter because you can set them up a

few days ahead. I can also move a small bale in a skidsteer bucket

or front end loader and do not need to use the spear, or the big

tractor. This was very important to me because many times I am the

only one runing the farm, and being rather short I want to be able to

handle the equipment.

The smaller animals did better with the square bales, so we

eventually bought a small square bailer, but had many problems with

it (it was used, as all our equip is), and we just couldn't beat the

weather. In addition, it takes a lot of square bales everyday to

feed a herd of cows in WI, when they are only eating hay. But on the

really deep snow days, I always want an emergency pile of small

squares, because even if the tractors can't get out, I can handle

small squares myself.

One of the biggest lessons I've learned is that Eco-farming or

whatever you want to call it, requires more people, and sometimes

those people aren't available.

Of course, it still goes back to economics. If farmers could sell

what they produce at a viable price, there would be enough to pay for

help. Not likely in our neck of the woods.

~Jan

--- In , " pilgrimswayside " <john@...>

wrote:

>

> There are some farmers who still bale hay using the small square

bales

> (like us). We prefer this type as do our hay customers. The small

> bales have less of a tendency to mold (if dried and stored

correctly)

> and are easier to move around (a tractor with a bale spear is not

> needed to lift them). Plus, we have the equipment to make small

bales

> - it's old, but it's trusty (and rusty:)).

>

> However, it is challenging to get help to bale hay this way. We have

> done it by ourselves, but to do tie up the whole family with haying

> while chores still need to be done as well as preparing good

> traditional food to keep our energy levels up... well, it makes a

full

> plate that much more full. We recently scheduled a young person to

> help, prepared for it (mowed acres and acres of pasture, let it

dry)

> only to have our help cancel at the last minute. So, I understand

why

> most farmers have gone to the big round bales. Round bales can be

done

> by one person. No human help is needed. However, the investment in

the

> extra machinery involved is definitely also a consideration.

>

> Baling small bales is quite the workout. In fact, come to think of

it,

> one could save money by skipping the gym and getting their workout

on

> a sustainable farm (as I'm quite certain a farmer would not charge

for

> workout's on his farm ). We are in the middle of baling right now

> and are grateful a friend and his son from the city are enjoying

> " working out " with us!

>

>

>

> >today farmers fold their hay into gigantic

> > bales. They may weigh a ton or more. And farmers have pointed out

to

> me that the

> > inner of these huge bales is stinky, moldy, rotting hay. It's

baled

> green. But,

> > the surprisingly thing they tell me is that their cows just LOVE

the

> taste of

> > that interior (moldy) hay.

> > . </HTML>

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Enjoyed your long interesting narrative, Jan. I have been by (but

>never

> stopped) a lot of these farms, acreages with the giant bales of hay

>(sitting there

> for a year or more) out West. I never paid close attention, but I can

>tell you

> this about that hay: it STINKS to high heaven when you go near it.

That's too bad, it should smell sweet, and just well, grassy! I love

the smell of good hay in the barn on a cold winter day. Or, maybe I

just love being in with the cows?

Jan

[Guest guest]

Here is a response I just got from OP:

We irrigate our pastures all year long. No grain during milking time.

Mark

any grains?

do your cows get any grains at all? like at milking time? what are

they fed if there's a drought?

--- In , " Lana Gibbons " <lana.m.gibbons@...>

wrote:

>

> I have not yet received a response from Organic Pastures on my inquiry - has

> Mark gotten back to you with the clarification?

>

> -Lana

>

>

> Unfortunately I didn't totally understand what he said, and asked for some

> > clarification.

> >

> > I'll post exactly what he said after I get his next response.

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone know about Claravale? Do they irrigate?

carolyn_graff <zgraff@...> wrote: Here is a response I just got

from OP:

We irrigate our pastures all year long. No grain during milking time.

Mark

any grains?

do your cows get any grains at all? like at milking time? what are

they fed if there's a drought?

--- In , " Lana Gibbons " <lana.m.gibbons@...>

wrote:

>

> I have not yet received a response from Organic Pastures on my inquiry - has

> Mark gotten back to you with the clarification?

>

> -Lana

>

>

> Unfortunately I didn't totally understand what he said, and asked for some

> > clarification.

> >

> > I'll post exactly what he said after I get his next response.

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am still not satisfied with OP's answers... this is a collection of what

people have posted to the list:

" œI was calling Organic Pastures to put in a cheese order and while on hold

the blog said they are fed grass and organic grain. When the order taker

came back on I asked her about it and she said yes, that they had to in

order to keep up with the ever expanding demand. " (*artpages@...*)

" œHere is a response I just got from OP: We irrigate our pastures all year

long. No grain during milking time. " (*zgraff@...*)

If no grain is given during milking time, how does it help increase milk

production?

" Unfortunately I didn't totally understand what he said, and asked for some

clarification.

One thing is clear though. Most of the time they are feed grass only. Grain

is fed a relatively small percentage of the time, and in relatively small

quantities. " (*implode7@...*)

What was so confusing about his email? Either they are 100% grass fed as

advertised, or there are somewhere in the 90-some% grass fed area. You

can't feed grain in any quantity and still call the milk 100% grass fed.

€œ " We went to Organic Pastures last year for a visit and I remember them

saying that they feed them something else sometimes as well...maybe the

husks from their almond crop? Something like that...don't quote me. Also,

the calves got something other than milk. It was a dry mixture of some

sort. It was in a dish in their pens. Again, best to check with them as I

don't remember exactly what they said it was. That said, all the milking

cows were in the field eating grass. " € (*danaecooks@...*)

This seems like a well thought out loophole to the anti-grain movement.

Also, once again, any feed additive other than grass would nullify the 100%

grass fed claim. The question is: what exactly is he using and does it

compare to grass in terms of nutrition?

In my email I asked for a list of feed additives and specific percentages of

each feed type. I have not yet gotten a response. I will resend and

hopefully I will get an answer soon.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

> I will quote Mark¹s reponse to me below, since he hasn¹t sent a response to

> my email asking for clarification.

>

> Great question....our cows are not fed grain routinely.

It is not available in organic form so it is not routine.

When they do get grain it is in the form of about 5 pounds per day of just

oats or maybe corn.

So yes we do feed grain but probably about 10-20% of the time, when it is

available, which is rare. They are always on grass 100% of the time.

I hope this helps.

People need to know that things are not cut and dried....simple is not part

of our world. We struggle to find feed most is grown by our own operations

and do the 100 million things needed to keep everyone happy including food

Nazis at the state of CA.

Mark

>

>

>> > I am still not satisfied with OP's answers... this is a collection of what

>> > people have posted to the list:

>> >

>> > " œI was calling Organic Pastures to put in a cheese order and while on hold

>> > the blog said they are fed grass and organic grain. When the order taker

>> > came back on I asked her about it and she said yes, that they had to in

>> > order to keep up with the ever expanding demand. " (*artpages@...

>> > <mailto:%2Aartpages%40earthlink.net> *)

>> >

>> > " œHere is a response I just got from OP: We irrigate our pastures all year

>> > long. No grain during milking time. " (*zgraff@...

>> > <mailto:%2Azgraff%40charter.net> *)

>> >

>> > If no grain is given during milking time, how does it help increase milk

>> > production?

>> >

>> > " Unfortunately I didn't totally understand what he said, and asked for some

>> > clarification.

>> >

>> > One thing is clear though. Most of the time they are feed grass only. Grain

>> > is fed a relatively small percentage of the time, and in relatively small

>> > quantities. " (*implode7@... <mailto:%2Aimplode7%40comcast.net> *)

>> >

>> > What was so confusing about his email? Either they are 100% grass fed as

>> > advertised, or there are somewhere in the 90-some% grass fed area. You

>> > can't feed grain in any quantity and still call the milk 100% grass fed.

>> >

>> > €œ " We went to Organic Pastures last year for a visit and I remember them

>> > saying that they feed them something else sometimes as well...maybe the

>> > husks from their almond crop? Something like that...don't quote me. Also,

>> > the calves got something other than milk. It was a dry mixture of some

>> > sort. It was in a dish in their pens. Again, best to check with them as I

>> > don't remember exactly what they said it was. That said, all the milking

>> > cows were in the field eating grass. " € (*danaecooks@...

>> > <mailto:%2Adanaecooks%40aol.com> *)

>> >

>> > This seems like a well thought out loophole to the anti-grain movement.

>> > Also, once again, any feed additive other than grass would nullify the 100%

>> > grass fed claim. The question is: what exactly is he using and does it

>> > compare to grass in terms of nutrition?

>> >

>> > In my email I asked for a list of feed additives and specific percentages

>> of

>> > each feed type. I have not yet gotten a response. I will resend and

>> > hopefully I will get an answer soon.

>> >

>> > -Lana

>> >

[Guest guest]

I want to thank you for being so diligent on this. This is what we went through

here in Florida. It seems a lot of people want to advertise grass fed but when

they are really pushed for information it is becoming more clear to me that they

are not being totally upfront about this. I agree that if it is not 100% grass

fed then it should not be touted as it is. I personally want 100% grass fed so

I only purchase from those farmers that I know are but just like this I am

beginning to wonder who you can trust. Once the grains start being fed the

quality quickly drops and the good stuff such as the CLA starts dwindling.

There are other issues with grains as well. It is very hard on a cow’s

stomach as well.

Allyn

_____

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:32 AM

Subject: Re: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

I am still not satisfied with OP's answers... this is a collection of what

people have posted to the list:

" Å“I was calling Organic Pastures to put in a cheese order and while on hold

the blog said they are fed grass and organic grain. When the order taker

came back on I asked her about it and she said yes, that they had to in

order to keep up with the ever expanding demand. " (*artpages@earthlink

<mailto:%2Aartpages%40earthlink.net> .net*)

" Å“Here is a response I just got from OP: We irrigate our pastures all year

long. No grain during milking time. " (*zgraffcharter (DOT)

<mailto:%2Azgraff%40charter.net> net*)

If no grain is given during milking time, how does it help increase milk

production?

" Unfortunately I didn't totally understand what he said, and asked for some

clarification.

One thing is clear though. Most of the time they are feed grass only. Grain

is fed a relatively small percentage of the time, and in relatively small

quantities. " (*implode7comcast (DOT) <mailto:%2Aimplode7%40comcast.net> net*)

What was so confusing about his email? Either they are 100% grass fed as

advertised, or there are somewhere in the 90-some% grass fed area. You

can't feed grain in any quantity and still call the milk 100% grass fed.

€œ " We went to Organic Pastures last year for a visit and I remember them

saying that they feed them something else sometimes as well...maybe the

husks from their almond crop? Something like that...don't quote me. Also,

the calves got something other than milk. It was a dry mixture of some

sort. It was in a dish in their pens. Again, best to check with them as I

don't remember exactly what they said it was. That said, all the milking

cows were in the field eating grass. " € (*danaecooks@

<mailto:%2Adanaecooks%40aol.com> aol.com*)

This seems like a well thought out loophole to the anti-grain movement.

Also, once again, any feed additive other than grass would nullify the 100%

grass fed claim. The question is: what exactly is he using and does it

compare to grass in terms of nutrition?

In my email I asked for a list of feed additives and specific percentages of

each feed type. I have not yet gotten a response. I will resend and

hopefully I will get an answer soon.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Thanks Gene...

This email leads me to believe " 100% pasture grazed " is not an equivalent

term to " 100% grass fed " , as I had originally suspected.

I'm glad to hear they only get GF grains (oats are technically GF although

cross contamination is possible and the protein is similar so some do react)

- even though I am no longer GF I think that this is important.

Provided his cows are of average size, I would think 5 lbs/day would be a

reasonable feed additive. Here's a quote from a dairy site: " When grains

are fed at higher than 0.5% of BW forage intake is reduced. For example, a

1200 lb cow fed over 6 lbs of grain will reduce the amount of hay she will

eat. " (

http://www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/livestock/aps-02_08/aps-124.html)

Since he is only feeding 5 lbs/day occasionally this is probably not

jeopardizing their grass intake.

I just want to reiterate that the milk I got from OP was very good, it just

wasn't as bitter/grassy as I was expecting: In light of this information, my

guess is that I got a batch from the occasional grain feeding. If OP was my

only source of raw milk, I would certainly prefer it over supermarket milk.

-Lana

On 6/26/07, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> > I will quote Mark¹s reponse to me below, since he hasn¹t sent a

> response to

> > my email asking for clarification.

> >

> > Great question....our cows are not fed grain routinely.

>

> It is not available in organic form so it is not routine.

>

> When they do get grain it is in the form of about 5 pounds per day of just

> oats or maybe corn.

>

> So yes we do feed grain but probably about 10-20% of the time, when it is

> available, which is rare. They are always on grass 100% of the time.

>

> .

>

[Guest guest]

Allyn,

No problem! I was suspicious since the term " pasture grazed " was used

instead of " grass fed " - however, technically, OP is not false advertising.

Their cattle are always on grass, it just isn't all that they eat. I still

think this is a good thing, because it means they are in the sun and fresh

air all the time - unlike standard " pastured " cattle which hang out in barns

when they arn't grazing.

I don't think it is realistic to expect 100% grass except for in the most

rich and fertile of areas. A lot of people consider hay and silage grass,

but I don't - they are mostly grain byproducts unless you move into the

higher grade hays. Even then, dried hay isn't green and this is why I

prefer haylage, which is properly fermented green hay. Haylage is such an

efficient feed that cows actually eat less of it than they do any other feed

offered. Unfortunately, the sheer cost of wintering cattle/supplementing

feed with haylage makes it fairly uncommon. I would love it if Mark would

skip the grain and use haylage instead, but I can only imagine how difficult

it would be to find organic haylage!

I want my dairy cows to be healthy, and that includes being at an adequate

weight. It is bad enough that dairy breeds have been bred over the years to

put less and less into their flesh and more and more into their milk. (Ever

notice how a beef breed has twice the chest of a dairy breed?) I'd rather

get partially grain fed milk than milk from underweight cows. Actually, if

I could find someone who has dual purpose milk/meat cattle I would be

thrilled! But I feel lucky to be able to get mostly Jersey since that is

definately one of the best milk breeds available.

Farmers have a lot to think about, including those " food nazis " we all have

issues with. I agree with his statement that " people need to know that

things are not cut and dried....simple is not part of our world. " I think

Mark is doing the best he can farming in a state where he has to irrigate to

get his pastures green.

-Lana, who really wants to follow in her granny's footsteps and have a dairy

farm of her own someday.

I want to thank you for being so diligent on this. This is what we went

> through here in Florida. It seems a lot of people want to advertise grass

> fed but when they are really pushed for information it is becoming more

> clear to me that they are not being totally upfront about this. I agree that

> if it is not 100% grass fed then it should not be touted as it is. I

> personally want 100% grass fed so I only purchase from those farmers that I

> know are but just like this I am beginning to wonder who you can trust. Once

> the grains start being fed the quality quickly drops and the good stuff such

> as the CLA starts dwindling. There are other issues with grains as well. It

> is very hard on a cow's stomach as well.

>

> Allyn

>

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

While I'd like to get as close to 100% grass fed as I can get, I'm a little

troubled by people who are slamming OP for dishonesty. If they really wanted to

hide something, I'd think that they would do a better job of it, and I don't

think that Mark would answer personal emails. I understand that he's probably

busy, and the fact that he answered my first one is somewhat impressive to me.

They do seem to be the best alternative for raw milk in the SF area, and I am

very glad that they exist.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Lana Gibbons " <lana.m.gibbons@...>

> Thanks Gene...

> This email leads me to believe " 100% pasture grazed " is not an equivalent

> term to " 100% grass fed " , as I had originally suspected.

>

> I'm glad to hear they only get GF grains (oats are technically GF although

> cross contamination is possible and the protein is similar so some do react)

> - even though I am no longer GF I think that this is important.

>

> Provided his cows are of average size, I would think 5 lbs/day would be a

> reasonable feed additive. Here's a quote from a dairy site: " When grains

> are fed at higher than 0.5% of BW forage intake is reduced. For example, a

> 1200 lb cow fed over 6 lbs of grain will reduce the amount of hay she will

> eat. " (

> http://www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/livestock/aps-02_08/aps-124.html)

> Since he is only feeding 5 lbs/day occasionally this is probably not

> jeopardizing their grass intake.

>

> I just want to reiterate that the milk I got from OP was very good, it just

> wasn't as bitter/grassy as I was expecting: In light of this information, my

> guess is that I got a batch from the occasional grain feeding. If OP was my

> only source of raw milk, I would certainly prefer it over supermarket milk.

>

> -Lana

>

> On 6/26/07, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

> >

> > > I will quote Mark¹s reponse to me below, since he hasn¹t sent a

> > response to

> > > my email asking for clarification.

> > >

> > > Great question....our cows are not fed grain routinely.

> >

> > It is not available in organic form so it is not routine.

> >

> > When they do get grain it is in the form of about 5 pounds per day of just

> > oats or maybe corn.

> >

> > So yes we do feed grain but probably about 10-20% of the time, when it is

> > available, which is rare. They are always on grass 100% of the time.

> >

> > .

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I know several farmers here in Florida and one in Tennessee have mentioned

it is hard to keep the cows weight up but the ones I buy from do seem to do

ok with it. Dennis gives his cows kelp to help with the nutrients and

minerals that our Florida soil is so lacking in and except for two weeks

last winter he has never fed grains. His milk is $16 a gallon though so

most people can't afford that.

I think Mark does a good job with his cows and his rolling barn is fabulous

and I know he is the largest producer of raw milk in the country, but I

would still, if at all possible, try to get milk from 100% grass fed. If I

couldn't then I would settle for a little grain. Raw from cows fed some

grain is still better by far than anything in the stores and from what I

know now I just can't bring myself to drink store milk anymore. Actually,

when I lived in CA 30 years ago, I drank raw milk but since then have not

been much of milk drinker until I was able to get it again here in Florida.

But, it is nice to be informed as to what we are buying.

Thanks again,

Allyn

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:00 PM

Subject: Re: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

Allyn,

No problem! I was suspicious since the term " pasture grazed " was used

instead of " grass fed " - however, technically, OP is not false advertising.

Their cattle are always on grass, it just isn't all that they eat. I still

think this is a good thing, because it means they are in the sun and fresh

air all the time - unlike standard " pastured " cattle which hang out in barns

when they arn't grazing.

I don't think it is realistic to expect 100% grass except for in the most

rich and fertile of areas. A lot of people consider hay and silage grass,

but I don't - they are mostly grain byproducts unless you move into the

higher grade hays. Even then, dried hay isn't green and this is why I

prefer haylage, which is properly fermented green hay. Haylage is such an

efficient feed that cows actually eat less of it than they do any other feed

offered. Unfortunately, the sheer cost of wintering cattle/supplementing

feed with haylage makes it fairly uncommon. I would love it if Mark would

skip the grain and use haylage instead, but I can only imagine how difficult

it would be to find organic haylage!

I want my dairy cows to be healthy, and that includes being at an adequate

weight. It is bad enough that dairy breeds have been bred over the years to

put less and less into their flesh and more and more into their milk. (Ever

notice how a beef breed has twice the chest of a dairy breed?) I'd rather

get partially grain fed milk than milk from underweight cows. Actually, if

I could find someone who has dual purpose milk/meat cattle I would be

thrilled! But I feel lucky to be able to get mostly Jersey since that is

definately one of the best milk breeds available.

Farmers have a lot to think about, including those " food nazis " we all have

issues with. I agree with his statement that " people need to know that

things are not cut and dried....simple is not part of our world. " I think

Mark is doing the best he can farming in a state where he has to irrigate to

get his pastures green.

-Lana, who really wants to follow in her granny's footsteps and have a dairy

farm of her own someday.

I want to thank you for being so diligent on this. This is what we went

> through here in Florida. It seems a lot of people want to advertise grass

> fed but when they are really pushed for information it is becoming more

> clear to me that they are not being totally upfront about this. I agree

that

> if it is not 100% grass fed then it should not be touted as it is. I

> personally want 100% grass fed so I only purchase from those farmers that

I

> know are but just like this I am beginning to wonder who you can trust.

Once

> the grains start being fed the quality quickly drops and the good stuff

such

> as the CLA starts dwindling. There are other issues with grains as well.

It

> is very hard on a cow's stomach as well.

>

> Allyn

>

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It seems a lot of people want to advertise grass fed but when they are

really pushed for information it is becoming more clear to me that

they are not being totally upfront about this.

Agreed! At a farmers' market in Virginia (which boasted a flyer for a

WAPF-style speaking engagement), I found several vendors with signs

claiming " grass fed " but when asked if they supplement with feed, they

all said yes. One at least was honest enough to produce the

ingredients of the " grain " supplement -- first ingredient was soy!

Another small local farmer selling eggs as " cage free " and " pasture-

raised " in the oriental market diligently rotates the chickens around

the pasture, yet he has a grain bin in the pasture (which contains soy

in the mix). I saw the chickens head for that instead of the bugs,

etc. in the field. Although a non-soy grain mix is available, and

would at least be preferable to the soy+ grain mix, they all say it

makes their product too expensive to compete in the marketplace

(sigh). You really have to know the hearts of the people you buy from.

[Guest guest]

Wow, I always thought TN would be one of the best places to do 100% grass

since the hills are sooo green! Do you know of any state where the farmers

don't have issues keeping their cattle up to weight?

Interesting about the kelp - does it give the milk a fishy taste when he

uses too much?

-Lana

On 6/26/07, ALLYN FERRIS <aferris7272@...> wrote:

>

> I know several farmers here in Florida and one in Tennessee have

> mentioned

> it is hard to keep the cows weight up but the ones I buy from do seem to

> do

> ok with it.

>

[Guest guest]

I have not noticed any weird taste in his milk. I buy my milk from an Amish

Organic 100% grass fed farm (they do give hay and silage in winter) from PA

and then from Dennis here in Florida, and really don't taste much difference

between the two. Dennis does put a lot more cream in his milk and he also

puts small amounts of colostrum in it as well. I haven't bought from him in

a couple months but I am getting a gallon this week so I will let you know

if I notice anything.

Allyn

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:37 PM

Subject: Re: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

Wow, I always thought TN would be one of the best places to do 100% grass

since the hills are sooo green! Do you know of any state where the farmers

don't have issues keeping their cattle up to weight?

Interesting about the kelp - does it give the milk a fishy taste when he

uses too much?

-Lana

On 6/26/07, ALLYN FERRIS <aferris7272@ <mailto:aferris7272%40verizon.net>

verizon.net> wrote:

>

> I know several farmers here in Florida and one in Tennessee have

> mentioned

> it is hard to keep the cows weight up but the ones I buy from do seem to

> do

> ok with it.

>

[Guest guest]

I don’t think anyone is slamming OP. Mark has a very good operation going

but we are just trying to find out some more definitive information on his

milk. He is highly regarded across the country for his milk.

Allyn

Re: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

While I'd like to get as close to 100% grass fed as I can get, I'm a little

troubled by people who are slamming OP for dishonesty. If they really wanted

to hide something, I'd think that they would do a better job of it, and I

don't think that Mark would answer personal emails. I understand that he's

probably busy, and the fact that he answered my first one is somewhat

impressive to me.

They do seem to be the best alternative for raw milk in the SF area, and I

am very glad that they exist.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Lana Gibbons " <lana.m.gibbons@...>

> Thanks Gene...

> This email leads me to believe " 100% pasture grazed " is not an equivalent

> term to " 100% grass fed " , as I had originally suspected.

>

> I'm glad to hear they only get GF grains (oats are technically GF although

> cross contamination is possible and the protein is similar so some do

react)

> - even though I am no longer GF I think that this is important.

>

> Provided his cows are of average size, I would think 5 lbs/day would be a

> reasonable feed additive. Here's a quote from a dairy site: " When grains

> are fed at higher than 0.5% of BW forage intake is reduced. For example, a

> 1200 lb cow fed over 6 lbs of grain will reduce the amount of hay she will

> eat. " (

> http://www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/livestock/aps-02_08/aps-124.html)

> Since he is only feeding 5 lbs/day occasionally this is probably not

> jeopardizing their grass intake.

>

> I just want to reiterate that the milk I got from OP was very good, it

just

> wasn't as bitter/grassy as I was expecting: In light of this information,

my

> guess is that I got a batch from the occasional grain feeding. If OP was

my

> only source of raw milk, I would certainly prefer it over supermarket

milk.

>

> -Lana

>

> On 6/26/07, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

> >

> > > I will quote Mark¹s reponse to me below, since he hasn¹t sent a

> > response to

> > > my email asking for clarification.

> > >

> > > Great question....our cows are not fed grain routinely.

> >

> > It is not available in organic form so it is not routine.

> >

> > When they do get grain it is in the form of about 5 pounds per day of

just

> > oats or maybe corn.

> >

> > So yes we do feed grain but probably about 10-20% of the time, when it

is

> > available, which is rare. They are always on grass 100% of the time.

> >

> > .

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here in Texas, I get 100% grassfed beef from:

http://www.burgundypasturebeef.com

There are milk farms too. They feed alfalfa in winter if the pasture

dries up. From the few cattle ranchers I have spoken to, feeding any

grain ever will so skew the fatty acid profiles (and possibly other

factors) that you might as well not bother with it.

I think the best food comes from smaller farms where demand and land

issues are sustainable, thus no corners are cut to make fatter

animals. Because if this one farm in question says 100% grassfed and

that's not really the case, then what else might be compromised? It's

nice to know and trust your farmers, and it feels better to support

such operations imho.

Oh, and that is another thing my beef producer tells me: grassfed

animals can run the gamut of lean and tough to extra fatty. There are

so many factors involved in raising animals for milk or meat, and feed

is just one of them. I think it takes years of experience and a good

climate to get it right.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

I don't think they want to hide anything. As I stated in other emails, the

concept of " 100% pasture grazed " is ideal for things like fresh air and sun,

which do significantly affect the quality of the milk - perhaps in some ways

even moreso than grass vs grain. I just think we have all been assuming

that " pasture grazed " means " grass fed " and that is our mistake, not OP's.

I'm starting to think I want milk from both 100% pasture grazed and 100%

grass fed cows. One could accomplish the latter by feeding haylage in a

barn without any daylight exposure at all - whereas the former could be

accomplished by stacking hay on dry pasture so that the cows would get the

daylight without the fresh green growing grass. Pasture grazing supports D

production where fresh green grass feeding supports A production. It seems

to me that each is as important as the other and Mark is the only one I know

of who is pushing the 100% pasture grazed movement with his mobile

milking-barn.

I wonder what we could do to convince him to move away from grain

alltogether and use something like forage trees instead? He did say he was

having issues acquiring feeds, and if he were to plant a few forage trees I

would think that would help both the organic feed sourcing and the weight

issues.

-Lana

On 6/26/07, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

>

>

> While I'd like to get as close to 100% grass fed as I can get, I'm a

> little troubled by people who are slamming OP for dishonesty. If they really

> wanted to hide something, I'd think that they would do a better job of it,

> and I don't think that Mark would answer personal emails. I understand that

> he's probably busy, and the fact that he answered my first one is somewhat

> impressive to me.

>

> They do seem to be the best alternative for raw milk in the SF area, and I

> am very glad that they exist.

>

[Guest guest]

Joan,

> in the mix). I saw the chickens head for that instead of the bugs,

> etc. in the field. Although a non-soy grain mix is available, and

> would at least be preferable to the soy+ grain mix, they all say it

> makes their product too expensive to compete in the marketplace

> (sigh). You really have to know the hearts of the people you buy from.

>

Chickens are natural grain eaters, being birds. But soy is not a good

choice for chickens. And I also know that many folks feed

conventional feed to chickens, which means it will most likely contain

gmo corn and soy. I think everyone that can should raise their own

chickens for meat and eggs. I sprout wheat, oats, buckwheat, etc for

my chickens. They do like greens as well. I believe chickens HAVE to

have supplemental feed, whereas rumninants can live on the grass. But

then, I am certainly no expert!

Deanna

[Guest guest]

It is very hard to get soy free chicken and eggs. We have a retired

minister here in Florida who grows them for us and he had to raise the price

because the soy free feed was so much more expensive. From what I have

researched, unless you know the farmer personally and know he is not feeding

soy, then you can pretty much bet it contains soy.

Allyn

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of joanhulvey

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:32 PM

Subject: Re: Milk: Raw vs. Grass Fed?

It seems a lot of people want to advertise grass fed but when they are

really pushed for information it is becoming more clear to me that

they are not being totally upfront about this.

Agreed! At a farmers' market in Virginia (which boasted a flyer for a

WAPF-style speaking engagement), I found several vendors with signs

claiming " grass fed " but when asked if they supplement with feed, they

all said yes. One at least was honest enough to produce the

ingredients of the " grain " supplement -- first ingredient was soy!

Another small local farmer selling eggs as " cage free " and " pasture-

raised " in the oriental market diligently rotates the chickens around

the pasture, yet he has a grain bin in the pasture (which contains soy

in the mix). I saw the chickens head for that instead of the bugs,

etc. in the field. Although a non-soy grain mix is available, and

would at least be preferable to the soy+ grain mix, they all say it

makes their product too expensive to compete in the marketplace

(sigh). You really have to know the hearts of the people you buy from.

[Guest guest]

> A lot of people consider hay and silage grass,

> but I don't - they are mostly grain byproducts unless you move into

the

> higher grade hays. Even then, dried hay isn't green and this is why I

> prefer haylage, which is properly fermented green hay. Haylage is

such an

> efficient feed that cows actually eat less of it than they do any

other feed

> offered.

Perhaps this is because of higher K2 content of haylage? I was

readingup on forms of K2 last night when I came upon the story of natto:

an ancient Japanese warrior didn't have time to let his tofu cake dry

out completely before a battle, so he wrapped it in grass/hay and put it

in his pack. A couple of days later, he dumped out the resulting mess,

but the horses loved it. Apparently, Bacillus subtilis natto, the

bacteria which turns soybeans into natto, was originally a straw-loving

bacteria. So, it seems possible that fermented hay would be higher in

K2 (and probably several other things) than natural grass.

Anyway, just a thought.

Colin