Re: New dog - what to feed?

June 30, 2007

Lana-

> You won't see the fat content of a liver because the fats are

> emulsified

> into the meat thanks to the high cholesterol content. Just because

> there is

> no marbeling, doesn't mean there is no fat.

Of course there's some fat (it's a necessary component of all cells)

but liver doesn't have much at all. 100g of beef liver, for example,

has 4g of total fat and only 1g of saturated fat according to

Nutrition Data, and I suspect bison liver (the type I eat most often)

is appreciably leaner. When I eat liver, I get virtually no

satiation from it.

-

June 30, 2007

<<<,My dogs are getting an organ blend right now that they

>really like. It has tripe, heart, lung, liver, spleen and pancreas.

Kathy, what species is the blend from and where do you get it?

Suze>>>

Oh, well, it's all beef and came from Greentripe.com

Kathy A.

July 1, 2007

<<Yes, they can. It is the difference between an opportunistic carnivore and

an obligate carnivore. The opportunistic carnivore has a reduced capacity

for urea elimination when compared to the obligate carnivore. This is why

wolves and dogs drink more water than lions and cats - to flush their

kidneys of urea. When wolves/dogs don't get adequate fluid or consume too

much protein, they can get uremic poisoning. This is rare in the cat.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>I really consider dogs/wolves obligate carnivores. To quote from Lew

Olsen " They have a short, simple digestive tract designed to eat animal protein

and fat. Some typical features common to carnivores are a large mouth opening, a

single hinge joint that lies in .the same plane as the teeth and large primary

muscle on theside of the head for operating the jaw. The teeth are

short/pointed, made for grasping and shredding - come together in a cutting

motion ro swallow whole food. Mech says that wolves first attack the

rump followed by heart, lungs, liver etc.,.. nothing about eating large amounts

of bone.

<< " Timber wolves are carnivores feeding on other animals. A study in the early

1980's showed that the diet of Wisconsin wolves was comprised of 55%

white-tailed deer, 16% beavers, 10% snowshoe hares and 19% mice, squirrels,

muskrats and other small mammals. Deer comprise over 80% of the diet much of

the year, but beaver become important in spring and fall. Beavers spend a

lot>>

I don't know where this study came from?. I know that Mech has studied wolves

for decades and says that the primary diet is large ungulates with some snow

shoe rabbit etc. With this study saying that 55%-80% of a diet of deer is a lot

of meat, so not sure what your saying?? Wolves like there human counterparts do

not go hunt bones- they hunt meat!! Smaller prey is consumed whole.

<<Most kibbles use grain based protein extracts and meals, this is why

melamine got to be such an issue. If they were using whole grains instead

of protein extracts, there would have never been an issue. I agree that

grain is bad for dogs because when it is whole grain, the protein content is

far less and the bulk of the food is far more.

>>

>>>Yes, there would be an issue. Again, grain is not protein. Manufacturers do

count it in the protein content but that is just plain wrong. Grain has those

phytates that block mineral absorbsortion . Dogs have NO requirement for

carbohydrates!! And they are finding melamine in things like toothpaste!! Ack!

<<Yes, they can. It is the difference between an opportunistic carnivore and

an obligate carnivore. The opportunistic carnivore has a reduced capacity

for urea elimination when compared to the obligate carnivore. This is why

wolves and dogs drink more water than lions and cats - to flush their>>

>>>>>>>>>This is new info to me, never in 10 years heard of this - tell me

more. This is like saying dogs can live by raiding the oat field. Big cats

get their water mainly from their food and i do believe that their requirements

are a bit more stringent but wolves will also get the main fliuds from their

prey. But also that is why kibble is such a problem for them. Comparing big

cats and dogs can get a bit iffy. Not that i haven't done it. : )

<,Opportunistic carnivores can certainly handle protein better than us

omnivores, and I am not reccomending a low protein diet - I just don't think

extra muscle meat should be added to a raw diet under the pretense that the>>

But it isn't " handling " protein or " extra " muscle meat - it's doing what the dog

is designed to do. Eat meat I don't think of dogs as opportuntisic - they hunt

meat. Period.l Remember Mech and his notes that wolves go first for the

rump. Meat!! Doesn't matter what i can or can't as a human can or can't handle.

<<And many people feed to much bone. Up to 1/2 the diet can be RMB and this

means >>

> I was thinking of s site with the range/percents. I believe that she is

trying to show how simple it is to feed raw. No absolute feed so much %- but it

does take a bit of smarts to go - OK- I fed boney chicken backs so now I need to

feed some meat.

<<Aminos like arginine, citrulline and ornithine are ideal for kidney

problems, since they boost the urea cycle. However, excess BCAAs are not

good for the urea cycle and can be downright disasterous when combined with

with arginine, citrulline and ornithine deficiencies (which can be easily

caused by not feeding enough organ meats, or by feeding too much in the way

of grain-based proteins). So " more protein " for kidney disease can be just

as disasterous as " less protein " , depending on the amino acid content of

that protein>>

>>>>> Sorry, but you've lost me. I've been doing this for 10 years. I'm on a

really great canine kidney list so maybe it just is presented in a different

format? I've read Levy, Billinghurst, Volhard, Pitcairn, Goldstein, Lonsdale.

I'm pretty much up on what Lew Olsen, Christie , Strauss, Whole Dog

Journal and a few others that I consider knowledgeable have to say. I've had a

kidney cat and now have an Iffy kidney dog so I do try to keep up but---Protein

is OK- it's phosphorus that is the problem. If you can give some links I'm very

interested in pursuing.

Lots of Phosphorus in those bones!

More protein in things such as bio available meat -v- bones and grains is a big

thing with kidney/senior dogs or i would think with any dog. Meat protein. If

you get rid of the grain you definitely alter the amino acid profile. Why muck

things up with something totally usless as grains? FWIW I am not talking end

stage renal disease.

Kathy A.

July 2, 2007

With our modern freezers this is not needed as a preservation

technique. The reason we (we being my husband and I) bleed out our

animals is simply because it looks better. Now and then some blood

will stay in around a bone and it looks like a big ugly clot. When we

operated the custom slaughter many people complained about another

place that did not bleed out the animals. Appearances count.

Belinda

>

> the point about the meat we get not having the blood in it really

resonated

> as i'd not considered that point. why is it that we bleed out

animals prior

> to butchering? is this a preservation technique or something?

>

> thanks,

>

> oliver...

>

July 2, 2007

On the prey-model part of the discussion just study some of the many

feral dog and wild dog colonies to see what our dogs would be left to do

without us. I also find the work from the lady that owns mOrigins pet

food to be insightful. We used to buy her food but she's not shipping

to Texas anymore =(. Dogs " evolved " from wolves (one and the same

really) and followed us around eating our scraps. So our diets (barring

modern times) would be a clue as to what they'd eat but we shouldn't

discount that they are all genetically wolves no matter how tiny they

may be now.

Anatolian Shepherd Dogs raised by man to guard flocks of sheep in Turkey

have a pretty harsh life quite often. They get a few left overs from

lamb and sheep slaughters that feed the human families and lumps of

dough. They are reported to supplement their diet with a great deal of

gopher which is one of the easiest things to catch while out protecting

the flock.

My Anatolian pup now eats 100% raw-grassfed beef with organ meats ground

in and tripe and some human food leftovers (only the healthier stuff

people eat around here). He gets the occasional bone (RMB style) to

chew on but it's not a major part of his diet. My first Anatolian was

on a more BARF type diet which is a lot of bone and I could NEVER keep

weight on him unless I went back to adding some soaked & cooked oats

etc. This pup is doing great, growing steady and not too fast, has a

wonderful coat, absolutely no fleas and a happy temperament and doesn't

seem to need the carbs. I hope to get him out with some goats and sheep

once we're moved.

I do use a multi-vitamin mix in but I haven't been able to find one I'm

super happy with - we're using Wysong's Call of the Wild right now

primarily because it has no fiber and fewer non-animal source

ingredients. Because of the processing/freezing situation causing a

loss of nutrients over eating fresh kills I feel the mix in is

important. But I hate to see fiber in it among other things, especially

for the cats. Felinefuture.com and catnutrition.org both have some

great info on cat diets *except* I don't agree at all with their

psyllium husk theory and opt instead for a quality probiotics

supplement. Grains are a death sentence to cats causing a serious issue

with their GI tract and I even have a theory it's behind FIP. FIP

mutates in the gut from the coronavirus and for some reason in some cats

it gets out of the gut and into the body cavity. I'm wondering if it's

not from some type of leaky gut syndrome like many of us humans suffer

from because of not handling our grains properly. Of course with cats

they shouldn't be eating things like wheat at all, no matter how it's

handled. Good luck to me trying to get researchers to take it seriously

but I'm going to write a paper on it because FIP is this big " mystery "

right now and kitten buyers like to blame genetics on anything that

isn't explained.

I'll probably start feeding my cats feeder mice if I can find a source

that isn't fed commercial feeds and is killed with CO2 (humanely of

course). It won't be the staple of their diet but it is what I hear

many of the Russian breeders feed (my breed is Russian) and their cats

have far superior coats and health in many cases. Something about the

sulfur content of the rodents but I haven't been able to find any

studies on that yet for verification. My cats that I used to allow

outside were always hunting rodents of various types (rats, mice, moles,

little rabbits, squirrels etc) and only occasionally brought in birds in

comparison. They also ate quite a few bugs. I had one cat that would

make sure to bring some lunch home to share with me, always fun to clean

that up. She also loved catching snakes but I don't know if she

actually ate any of those as I never found them dead but perfectly

alive.

Overall though I prefer feeding ungulates for many reasons and avoid

poultry as much as possible. The occasional piece of chicken is

alright. I would feed my dogs some whole rabbit too if I had room to

raise them. My cats eat the grassfed beef too and just love it.

Anyway, carry on the discussion please! It's all fascinating to me.

Dawn

July 2, 2007

I never bought that theory " don't feed vit c because they synthesize

their own " . Yeah they do but are they able to make enough? I mean our

bodies make a lot of things too but many of us supplement anyway because

our bodies are over worked, tired or sick. or we know our food just

isn't providing enough which makes our bodies have to produce more than

they should. What if wolves get 50% of their vitamin C by eating fresh

kills and berries etc? So their bodies work half as hard as they would

if they weren't getting that at all.

I supplement with Vitamin C nearly daily and add more in times of stress

or illness to bowel tolerance. On my cats too. And it really helps in

situations like Sonja (my cat) recovering from a freakish uterine

infection after giving birth (which she wouldn't have had if I had them

on raw at the time). Or my brother's terminally ill dog with cancer who

was given a week tops. a month ago. I convinced my brother to switch

him over to raw finally to buy another week or two and so far he's

gotten a month and the dog looks better than he has in half a year

except for the big cancer lump on his rear. I don't want his body

working to do anything but surviving, so he gets CLO with butter oil

from greenpasture.org, Vit C, probiotics, Wyson vitamin mix and his

grassfed beef. Oh and digestive enzymes. It's too late to save Leo for

years to come but my brother has gotten some precious few weeks out of

this and maybe just maybe the dog will hold on long enough for them to

buy this house they are wanting so he can bury his dog somewhere he can

visit.

If the supplements do not harm the animal then I give them, because

modern foods are lacking.

Dawn

July 5, 2007

Have you considered raising your own or does the killing part gross

you out?

>> I'll probably start feeding my cats feeder mice if I can find a

source

> that isn't fed commercial feeds and is killed with CO2 (humanely of

> course).

My cats down South were nuts about grasshoppers, which people also

eat in some places (even mentioned in the Bible).

> They also ate quite a few bugs.

My cats catch voles (short-tailed mice) but never eat them. I

thought they didn't know what to do with them, but once they got a

baby bunny and quickly ate the whole thing, which was larger than the

vole. Someone told me they thought voles and moles might be

poisonous to cats. I don't know if they eat the mice they catch or

not, but think they may. We have an open compost pile that I'm sure

draws varmints at night and the cats love to hang out there at night.

July 5, 2007

I have considered it, but I’m a bit of a wuss.

Here’s a story for ya. My cat Whiskers brought in a baby rat through

the cat door one night. Dad was out of town, mom is phobic of rats even

field rats. So I’m chasing it all over the kitchen while my cat watches

extremely amused trying to get it out of the house before mom finds out.

I think this was my cat’s number one entertainment. I was about 15 or

16 at the time and I had never had to deal with a rat in the house

before… I always left that to dad! He was out of town though and

Whiskers was on this hunting spree. I’d already cleaned up a half eaten

squirrel, caught a large and unhappy bird, and rescued my dog from a

garter snake that bit him on the nose and wouldn’t let go earlier that

week.

Well, back to chasing the rat… I moved the fridge a bit because it ran

behind there and it ran back out and my dog Lobo was “helping” me. He

caught the rat and instead of breaking its neck like he does normally he

broke the back. The poor thing was suffering and I just didn’t know

what to do. Dad calls as usual in the evening and I tell him what’s

going on and he starts giving me all these helpful “tips” on how to kill

it humanely. His favorite being a paper bag and a hammer. =( I don’t

like this idea at all, so he says if you are worried about a mess use a

ziplock bag. Well, I didn’t respond favorably to that one either but I

don’t want the poor thing to suffer more than it is already. So, we

finally settle on leaving it in the glass jar I had and drowning it but

to this day I feel horribly guilty!

Now, I think CO2 wouldn’t be too awful a way to die but how would I

know? =) my DH-to-be might be enticed to do it, he’s already said he’d

butcher rabbits for the dogs when we have room to raise them. Also,

what do you feed them? How do I raise them in a “sustainable

agriculture” way? I’d have a lot of research to do.

I want a farm, and I can handle knowing that some of the animals are

going to food but I don’t want to take part in it or be there on the

slaughter day. I have always had an affinity and an empathy with most

living things and I’d probably even find it hard to go hunting. I love

shooting guns though. =)

I keep searching pubmed for research on sulfur content of rodents but

unfortunately that and my FIP theory aren’t of too much interest.

As I think back Whiskers didn’t eat the voles or moles but she loved to

bring them indoors. Those were easy to catch and release outside

though. She loved eating squirrels, rabbits, mice and rats almost as

much as she loved releasing them indoors for me to catch. Maybe she