Re: Lost....again

October 7, 2008

I am older now, and the game has gone on for so long and has only gotten

sicker. I heard a program on Oprah and it was about forgiveness, I thought how

can I forgive my Nada for all she has done, I then realized she has a disease

called BPD and i am not to blame or am I responsible for her disease. i

e-mailed hospice to do a no contact, Nada is in hospice and i can not take her

hurt directed toward me. I can not be baited by the loosing of the house

anymore or that I will inherit something. I am an adult now. I told my sister

no contact, I am not alone. I have my husband who understands. I have gone

back to school and am getting my masters in psychology. I am going to be all

right. I also have a spiritual connection. I goes from catholicism to Native

American spirituality, angles, and nature. When I am really afraid I tell my

horse and the chickens. I have found away to have peace. I also invite other

famillies and family I do

talk to to dinner and we have peace in our home. Find your way, take care of

the little boy inside of you. You count also. I would not do it for a holiday

or birthday, it only sets up a pattern to wait for a holiday or special

occasion. I would call my dad on my own. See him on my own. Love him on my

own. He is your father. He too is sick. How would you treat some one with

cancer?

a Ann

Lost....again

Hey Everyone,

Well it has been a while, and I am going to forewarn you that this is probably

going to be long, so don't feel you need to read on, but i need to vent a bit,

and ask of some advice for anyone willing to advise.

To catch you all up-to-date since i havent posted in a while. I saw my parents 3

weekends ago for the first time since around X-Mas, it was at my brothers

graduation from the police academy, something i was not going to miss even if my

parents were there. I went there with a strict plan i intened to stick to. Go

there, celebrate my brother, ignore anything and any attempt my mother makes at

starting drama, and just be there for my brother, nothing else. So....when i got

there, even though my grandma (who i love) was with my parents, i sat with my

wife by ourselves. After, we met up with my family, and my brother to

congradulate him. Very shortly after talking to my brother, my mom motions for

me to go off to the side with her. Me thinking that all she is trying to do is

get me by myself to try and talk about " our situation " . So i shake my head no.

She motions again, and i repeat the same motion. After this she motions to me

asking if I want to

go to dinner with them after for my bro's graduation. I then reply " Oh, no, but

thank you, i need to get back to work " (it was at 1 in the afternoon on a

Friday, and i really did have work i needed to finish up before the weekend).

So, my mom's attitutude after this changed, and there was no more attempts at

trying to talk to me. A side note that creeped me out however: My dad did try to

talk to me, but by interupting someone else i was talking to, so ignored it.

Shortly after, without saying anything, he reaches over and rubs something off

my lip that i had on it, instead of just telling me i had something on me. This

really, really, creeped me out, i dont know if i am being weird, but it freaked

me out. He didnt say anything else to me after that. Well, the remainder of the

time there, my wife and I enjoyed my bro's company, and sat and talked with my

grandma and my aunt and uncle. After a bit, we realize my parents walked out

with my

brother, so we all follow. Trying to be the bigger person, I told my wife we

were going to go up and say goodbye to my parents. Well, before we could get

there, my dad already had gotten into his car, so i made no further attempt. My

mother came up to me, and as she is walking up, i say " sorry again i cant go to

dinner, i really have to finish some work today. " Her response was a short " it's

fine. " and she gave me a hug, and then when my wife approached to hug my mom, my

mom walked around her and ignored her gesture and just said " goodbye " . I was

very tempted to say something, but my wife grabed my hand and i withheld.

That evening (at 12:30 at night) my mom sent me a text appologizing, and just

saying she was disappointed we couldnt make it. I replied with " I appreciate

your apology " and that was that.

Well i should have known better that this was not the end of it. On Monday i get

a phone call from my aunt (different aunt then was at the graduation). She has

tried to talk to me before about the situation with my parents, but have

refused. I love this aunt and respect her, but know that she only sees my

parents side. Well, she said she had to see me that night to talk to me about

whats going on with my parents. I told her that i was not going to do this, it

was between my parents and I. Her reply was that it is not, that this is a

cancer in our family, and it is affecting everyone. I told her i was sorry, but

i dont feel like discussing this. Her response was that I dont sound sorry, that

i sound very cold. That she sees how sad my dad is all the time from this, and

it needs to be fixed. We then got off the phone.

I called her back and insisted she listend to me now. I told her that i am sorry

that she sees my dad so sad all the time, and understand she is just trying to

help her brother. I also said i am sorry if i come across being cold, and that

maybe i am, but after how long this has gone on, maybe it is the way that i cope

with dealing with this. I told her that i do love my parents, and my parents

used to be my most apprent people in my life, but when i got married, my wife

and I were my new family, and we are number one, and my parents follow. If

anyone were to threaten my family (my wife and I), no matter who it was

threatening it, i would defend it. And i told her my parents multiple times have

attempted to break up my wife and I, or keep us from getting married. My aunt

was very impressed at how articulate i was, and said why cant i just tell my

parents these feelings. I told her I have multiple times, and they refuse to

acknowledge them, and told

her had they just even said, " i am sorry you feel this way " , it would have gone

a long way for me, but their response each time was to get angry with me, and

defend themselves. She then said well, i dont think there is anything your

parents can say to make you feel better. My response was " No, i think there is

something they could say to make me feel better, but i do not think they are

capable of doing it. " She told me she would keep what was said between us, but

tell my parents to just keep giving me space, and i will contact them when i am

ready.

I really think it ended up going ok with my aunt, i am not sure how much she was

just placating me, and how much she understood. She said at one point that she

did believe my parent may be sick, or not good parents of an adult child, but

said that they arent going to change, that i need to learn to deal with how they

are.

This is where i need advice. How do you do this? I am terrified of trying to

open up relations with them, but feel maybe it is the right thing to do. My

dad's bday is coming up next week, and thought maybe that would be a good time

to start talking to them again, but i am so (i kind of sound like a baby here)

scared. I know that to have a relationship with them, i am going to have to see

them much more then i want to, and do a bunch of things to " please " them, and i

just dont know if i have it in me. By not choosing to do this, i feel like i

cant push the rest of my family that much further, and they are going to take

their side on this, and i will be all alone. Any advice on how to interact with

your BPD's again, or how to handle my situation would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the long winded email, and thanks for all your help!

T

October 7, 2008

T --

I really feel for you. I applaud you for going to your brothers graduation and

think you

handled it very well.

I completely understand the feeling of trying and trying to develop a

relationship with a

BPD parent and personally have given up. It is easier for me b/c Nada lives a 3

hr plane

ride away.

I still talk to her about once a week but don't have the pressure of having to

spend a day

with her, that being said I have the pressure of why don't you visit. I have

gotten very

honest that it isn't good for me emotionally to be with her in a confined space,

because

she is just plain mean to me. I think you can have a relationship with a BPD

parent but it

has to be on your terms, and what makes you feel comfortable otherwise it will

make you

sick.

You wrote that the only way you can have a relationship with them is do things

to " please "

them, IMO, this is not the approah to take if you want a change, you have to

please

yourself, it isn't easy and it takes a long time, but they do adjust.

My Nada took years to condition, she liked to talk 5x a week on the phone for

hours, I am

down to one call a week of every other week for 20 minutes.

She recently came in for the Jewish holidays and I told her she couldn't stay

with me, I

have a small 1 bdrm apt, she didn't like it but she stayed with friends who had

more room.

She started to get nasty with me, I left the apt, and didn't engage. In family

function

situations I greet her warmly then avoid her rest of the time.

I tried to get her to see my point for years, then was able to get her to agree

to disagree,

we don't discuss anything of substance, when she tries to " understand " why

things are so

different in our relationship, I deflect, deny, or just plain shut her down.

My family started seeing what she was about once I was no longer the one she

could get

her crazy out on to. It is hard to tell people what BPD is about, they really

need to

experience it themselves.

I know it is hard, but hang in there, Hope this was of some help!

October 7, 2008

Wow Tony! I am very impressed with the way you handled your

situation! Your values are very clear to me and I respect that you

are putting your family, meaning you and your wife, first. That is so

adult and so the normal way of things in the normal world of people

without personality disorders!

I think that you cut contact with your parents for a very legitimate

reason: of course you would do that to show you will not tolerate

disrespect to your wife! And your mother still showed disrespect to

your wife at the occasion of your brother's graduation, by trying to

get you off alone to speak to you without her, and by deliberately

refusing to hug her as she had hugged you.

Perhaps you need to simplify the message to your parents. Maybe they

aren't clear on your key point: " You have not apologized for

disrespecting my marriage, and you continue to be rude to my wife when

we are at social gatherings. Of course I will not tolerate this

behavior from you. When you apologize to us and treat us both with

equal respect and politeness, then we can discuss the possibility of

more contact. " Period.

You are currently experiencing FOG: the use of fear, obligation and

guilt to reel you back in to having a relationship with your parents.

In my book, all you legitimately owe your parents is to make sure

that they have a roof over their heads, food to eat, and medical

attention as needed.

You do not owe them obeisance, you do not owe them the sacrifice of

your individual existence, you do not owe them loyalty over your

loyalty to your wife, and you do not owe them love.

They don't want " love " from you, anyway; they only want obedience.

Stick to your guns!

-Annie

PS:

It occurred to me that if your wife is of a different culture or race

than you, you may be up against the brick wall of prejudice on your

parents' part. If that is the case, I would not even make the effort

to be as polite to them as you have been. When they attempt to speak

I'd interrupt with something like, " I don't speak with bigots. " and

turn away.

>

> Hey Everyone,

> Well it has been a while, and I am going to forewarn you that this

is probably going to be long, so don't feel you need to read on, but i

need to vent a bit, and ask of some advice for anyone willing to advise.

>

> To catch you all up-to-date since i havent posted in a while. I saw

my parents 3 weekends ago for the first time since around X-Mas, it

was at my brothers graduation from the police academy, something i was

not going to miss even if my parents were there. I went there with a

strict plan i intened to stick to. Go there, celebrate my brother,

ignore anything and any attempt my mother makes at starting drama, and

just be there for my brother, nothing else. So....when i got there,

even though my grandma (who i love) was with my parents, i sat with my

wife by ourselves. After, we met up with my family, and my brother to

congradulate him. Very shortly after talking to my brother, my mom

motions for me to go off to the side with her. Me thinking that all

she is trying to do is get me by myself to try and talk about " our

situation " . So i shake my head no. She motions again, and i repeat

the same motion. After this she motions to me asking if I want to

> go to dinner with them after for my bro's graduation. I then reply

" Oh, no, but thank you, i need to get back to work " (it was at 1 in

the afternoon on a Friday, and i really did have work i needed to

finish up before the weekend). So, my mom's attitutude after this

changed, and there was no more attempts at trying to talk to me. A

side note that creeped me out however: My dad did try to talk to me,

but by interupting someone else i was talking to, so ignored it.

Shortly after, without saying anything, he reaches over and rubs

something off my lip that i had on it, instead of just telling me i

had something on me. This really, really, creeped me out, i dont know

if i am being weird, but it freaked me out. He didnt say anything

else to me after that. Well, the remainder of the time there, my wife

and I enjoyed my bro's company, and sat and talked with my grandma and

my aunt and uncle. After a bit, we realize my parents walked out with my

> brother, so we all follow. Trying to be the bigger person, I told

my wife we were going to go up and say goodbye to my parents. Well,

before we could get there, my dad already had gotten into his car, so

i made no further attempt. My mother came up to me, and as she is

walking up, i say " sorry again i cant go to dinner, i really have to

finish some work today. " Her response was a short " it's fine. " and

she gave me a hug, and then when my wife approached to hug my mom, my

mom walked around her and ignored her gesture and just said " goodbye " .

I was very tempted to say something, but my wife grabed my hand and i

withheld.

>

> That evening (at 12:30 at night) my mom sent me a text appologizing,

and just saying she was disappointed we couldnt make it. I replied

with " I appreciate your apology " and that was that.

>

> Well i should have known better that this was not the end of it. On

Monday i get a phone call from my aunt (different aunt then was at the

graduation). She has tried to talk to me before about the situation

with my parents, but have refused. I love this aunt and respect her,

but know that she only sees my parents side. Well, she said she had

to see me that night to talk to me about whats going on with my

parents. I told her that i was not going to do this, it was between

my parents and I. Her reply was that it is not, that this is a cancer

in our family, and it is affecting everyone. I told her i was sorry,

but i dont feel like discussing this. Her response was that I dont

sound sorry, that i sound very cold. That she sees how sad my dad is

all the time from this, and it needs to be fixed. We then got off the

phone.

>

> I called her back and insisted she listend to me now. I told her

that i am sorry that she sees my dad so sad all the time, and

understand she is just trying to help her brother. I also said i am

sorry if i come across being cold, and that maybe i am, but after how

long this has gone on, maybe it is the way that i cope with dealing

with this. I told her that i do love my parents, and my parents used

to be my most apprent people in my life, but when i got married, my

wife and I were my new family, and we are number one, and my parents

follow. If anyone were to threaten my family (my wife and I), no

matter who it was threatening it, i would defend it. And i told her my

parents multiple times have attempted to break up my wife and I, or

keep us from getting married. My aunt was very impressed at how

articulate i was, and said why cant i just tell my parents these

feelings. I told her I have multiple times, and they refuse to

acknowledge them, and told

> her had they just even said, " i am sorry you feel this way " , it

would have gone a long way for me, but their response each time was to

get angry with me, and defend themselves. She then said well, i dont

think there is anything your parents can say to make you feel better.

My response was " No, i think there is something they could say to

make me feel better, but i do not think they are capable of doing it. "

She told me she would keep what was said between us, but tell my

parents to just keep giving me space, and i will contact them when i

am ready.

>

> I really think it ended up going ok with my aunt, i am not sure how

much she was just placating me, and how much she understood. She said

at one point that she did believe my parent may be sick, or not good

parents of an adult child, but said that they arent going to change,

that i need to learn to deal with how they are.

>

> This is where i need advice. How do you do this? I am terrified of

trying to open up relations with them, but feel maybe it is the right

thing to do. My dad's bday is coming up next week, and thought maybe

that would be a good time to start talking to them again, but i am so

(i kind of sound like a baby here) scared. I know that to have a

relationship with them, i am going to have to see them much more then

i want to, and do a bunch of things to " please " them, and i just dont

know if i have it in me. By not choosing to do this, i feel like i

cant push the rest of my family that much further, and they are going

to take their side on this, and i will be all alone. Any advice on

how to interact with your BPD's again, or how to handle my situation

would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long winded email, and

thanks for all your help!

> T

>

October 7, 2008

Hi a,

RE Oprah and forgiveness: I don't think it is possible to forgive

someone who isn't even asking for forgiveness. And I don't think its

possible for a person to forgive a perpetrator on the victim's behalf:

only the victim him- or herself can do the forgiving.

You are where I believe I will be in a few years. My nada is elderly

and frail and has a degenerative condition that will hospitalize (or

hospice-ize) her before too long.

Our nada is denying that she ever abused Sister or me in any way, and

is portraying the bewildered, poor old abandoned mother for all its

worth right now to the rest of the family.

Sister and I have stated to our Auntie the Younger (of nada's two

siblings) that all we require is for mom to acknowledge that she did

physically abuse us when we were kids/teens, and has continued to

emotionally abuse us up until we went No Contact last month, and we

require mom to make a conscious effort to change her abusive behaviors.

We have also stated to Auntie the Younger that we are not going to let

nada be homeless or starve to death, but neither are we going to

re-establish a relationship with her unless she fesses up, asks for

forgiveness, and makes a genuine attempt at being not-abusive.

I had a dream last night in which I asked my nada for advice with a

sewing problem, and my nada started being mean and hateful as she

ripped apart the pieces I had sewed already, and then I dreamed I

actually slapped her hard in the face, the way she used to do to me.

At first it felt good, but then in the dream I felt badly that I had

hit her. It made me no better than she was, and I want so much to NOT

be like she is and was. I guess that is a " I feel guilty " dream for

going NC with nada.

Sister and I keep hoping nada will decide to own up to the abuse she

has dished out over the decades and make the effort to re-establish a

relationship with us but, the ball is in nada's court now and only

time will tell.

-Annie

>

> I am older now, and the game has gone on for so long and has only

gotten sicker.ï¿½ I heard a program onï¿½Oprah and it was about

forgiveness, I thought how can I forgive my Nada for all she has done,

I then realized she has a disease called BPD and i am not to blame or

am I responsible for her disease.ï¿½ i e-mailed hospice to do a no

contact, Nada is in hospice and i can not take her hurt directed

toward me.ï¿½ I can not be baited by the loosing of the house anymore or

that I will inherit something.ï¿½ I am an adult now.ï¿½ I told my sister

no contact, I am not alone.ï¿½ I have my husband who understands.ï¿½ I

have gone back to school and am getting my masters in psychology.ï¿½ I

am going to be all right.ï¿½ I also have a spiritual connection.ï¿½ I goes

from catholicism to Native American spirituality, angles, and nature.ï¿½

When I am really afraid I tell my horse and the chickens.ï¿½ I have

found away to have peace.ï¿½ I also invite other famillies and family I do

> talk to to dinner and we have peace inï¿½our home.ï¿½ Findï¿½your way,

take care of the little boy inside of you.ï¿½ You count also.ï¿½ I would

not do it for a holiday or birthday, it only sets up a pattern to wait

for a holiday or special occasion.ï¿½ I would call my dad on my own. See

him on my own.ï¿½ Love him on my own. He is your father. He too is

sick.ï¿½ How would you treat some one with cancer?ï¿½

> ï¿½

> a Ann

>

> Lost....again