Re: PA Farmer arrested for selling raw milk

[Guest guest]

So... basically, raw milk is legal in PA and all this man had to do was

maintain his permit (as he was arrested for lack of permit, not for selling

goods not covered by the permit). This isn't a case against raw milk: it is

a case against a man who didn't have a permit, didn't adhere to warnings

that he needed a permit and made it loud and clear that he did not intend to

obtain a permit!

It would be nice if raw milk producers would understand the importance of

cooperating with the state - it would be bad if raw milk became illegal as a

result of farmers who didn't file for their permits. Sure, it would be nice

if PA legislation would open up to raw milk products in addition to raw

milk, but these things don't happen overnight and purposefully selling raw

milk illegally in a state where it is actually legal to sell it is not only

ridiculous, it is also counterproductive to getting other raw milk products

approved!

-Lana

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 3:32 PM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen04262008.html

>

> (I love counterpunch!!!)

>

[Guest guest]

Evidently there was an issue with him selling the raw butter, too

which he believed he should be able to do. I do believe there's also

a lot more history than what's said and that both sides have their

points but unfortunately not enough communication is happening.

>

> > http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen04262008.html

> >

> > (I love counterpunch!!!)

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Please note that the following is not directed at any individual, the

" you " is just a general youse guys.

If you needed a permit to do most anything that would net you some

income there might, just might, come a time when you just HAD ENOUGH.

This could very well be the point most small farmers are coming to.

For a start we can look at vegetables, not nearly as controversial as

dairy. In order for me to legally sell vegetable plants in Tennessee

I need to be a licensed green house, inspected, naturally.

Move another step forward and sell the veggies themselves and I need

an inspected sales place. Yes, the roadside stand should be inspected.

Also, an inspected storage area. Remember not to store any leftovers

or dairy in with the veggies. This separate refrigerator is for your

vegetables only.

If selling herbs and they dry out they must not, under any

circumstances, be sold unless you have dried them in a licensed

inspected facility. You see, dried herbs are a processed food.

Those who produce hay are looking at a future in which each field's

production would be numbered and have to be kept separate. This will

be a real treat for those of us with small 10-15 acre plots of hay ground.

OK, now for live animals. I'm not sure about any animals but goats

and sheep. At this point to legally sell a goat or sheep I need to

have a scrapies tag attached to its ear. This is true for private

sales as well as auctions. Simple, right? Not really. When you apply

for the scrapies tag they automatically sign you up for the National

Animal Identification System. This wonderful system set you up for

future tagging of every animal on your farm, reporting every birth or

death within 24 hours and paying for every one of these events.

Ahhh yes, if only the farmer would abide by the law then all would be

well with the world!

As for cooperation. We have tried that but here's just a couple of

examples. The gov't official comes to inspect the custom slaughter

and tells us to remove the screen door we'd thought would better help

keep flies out. The next gov't official asks why the doorway has trim.

We reply that we had a screen door there. He tells us to put it back.

The gov't officials come to the door waving our web page and accuse us

of selling cheese and butter. The web page is advertising workshops to

learn to make these things. No matter, the mantra is " All cheese and

butter must be made in a licensed inspected facility. " We ask about

the demos we do at events, the fair, the programs for schools, the

mantra is the same, " All cheese and butter must be made in a licensed

inspected facility. " We say that we are making cheese presses and

can't possibly sell them if we can't demonstrate them, we show them

the presses. Still, " All cheese and butter must be made in a licensed

inspected facility. " We offer to build a licensed inspected facility

and ask if we can then bring people in to learn to make cheese and are

told that only employees would be allowed to handle the cheese. It's

all about cooperation, right? There are plenty more examples about

eggs, meat and dairy but my rant is about run out of steam.

Perhaps what small farmers can't understand is why they should jump

through all these hoops just to make a living. At times we sit and

wonder if the best thing wouldn't be to just sell this place to a

developer, blow the money in Vegas and live on welfare, eating the

crap the stores sell and running up medical bills for the general

public to pay. Perhaps one dairy farmer in PA is just sick of it. I

know one farmer in TN is!

I'm never able to keep up with all the posts on this group, especially

in the spring. Email me if you like and I'll try to respond.

Belinda

>

> > http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen04262008.html

> >

> > (I love counterpunch!!!)

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> If you needed a permit to do most anything that would net you some

> income there might, just might, come a time when you just HAD ENOUGH.

> This could very well be the point most small farmers are coming to.

<snip>

> Move another step forward and sell the veggies themselves and I need

> an inspected sales place. Yes, the roadside stand should be inspected.

> Also, an inspected storage area. Remember not to store any leftovers

> or dairy in with the veggies. This separate refrigerator is for your

> vegetables only.

<snip>

> OK, now for live animals. I'm not sure about any animals but goats

> and sheep. At this point to legally sell a goat or sheep I need to

> have a scrapies tag attached to its ear. This is true for private

> sales as well as auctions. Simple, right? Not really. When you apply

> for the scrapies tag they automatically sign you up for the National

> Animal Identification System. This wonderful system set you up for

> future tagging of every animal on your farm, reporting every birth or

> death within 24 hours and paying for every one of these events.

This is just completely and utterly outrageous.

The police state is here.

Suze

[Guest guest]

Belinda,

I truly understand that small farmers have financial issues with these

things - and all the extra stress from the bureaucratic BS... But why

bother to fight for legalization of these things in the first place if

farmers aren't going to respect it? Sure, you could just sell on the black

market but that gives raw milk a bad image which is totally

counterproductive to the efforts made to legalize it.

Regarding the financial costs for the PA permit, according to

http://www.realmilk.com/raw-milk-future.html:

" There is no cost for the permit. There are costs for the tests that are

required to receive the permit. Tests necessary to get the permit include:

- TB test annually

- Johanes test and program

- Water tested twice a year

- Monthly milk test (standard plate, choloform, growth inhibitors,

Somatic cell count).

- Milk test must be through a state monitored lab.

In Pennsylvania, there are two kinds of raw milk permits: *Customer

container permit* <snip> and *Prefilled Container Permit* <snip> "

So basically, the cows must be healthy, they must be drinking " clean " water

and the milk has to be monitored (according to the same article: OPDC does

this per batch, not just per month!). For prefilled containers, the dairy

must have acceptable sanitization equipment. These requests are all within

reason and IMHO they are all things the farmer should be doing anyway,

permit or no.

I admire anyone running a small business as the US really isn't set up to

support small businesses. It sucks, but it isn't just small farms that are

being harassed by requirements that cost money - every small business out

there has these seemingly impossible financial responsibilities to meet. It

is part of being a small business. It is very sad, especially when I think

about all the small businesses I've ever worked for... not one was breaking

even. Then again, most of the large corporations I've worked for weren't

either. It is sad and scary that almost everything in this country gets

done by borrowing money/being in debt (perhaps with the exception of the big

corporations we all have come to know and hate: Monsanto, Pharma, etc).

-Lana

> Perhaps what small farmers can't understand is why they should jump

> through all these hoops just to make a living. <snip>

> Perhaps one dairy farmer in PA is just sick of it. I

> know one farmer in TN is!

>

[Guest guest]

The state of PA is very hypocritical in requiring permits to ensure quality

raw milk considering most pasteurized milk is contaminated and has GM

hormones.

I'd say let the free market reign. Get the nasty state out of our lives and

you will see peoples' health flourish. More state involvement, more

problems.

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...>

wrote:

> Belinda,

>

> I truly understand that small farmers have financial issues with these

> things - and all the extra stress from the bureaucratic BS... But why

> bother to fight for legalization of these things in the first place if

> farmers aren't going to respect it? Sure, you could just sell on the black

> market but that gives raw milk a bad image which is totally

> counterproductive to the efforts made to legalize it.

>

> Regarding the financial costs for the PA permit, according to

> http://www.realmilk.com/raw-milk-future.html:

>

> " There is no cost for the permit. There are costs for the tests that are

> required to receive the permit. Tests necessary to get the permit include:

>

> - TB test annually

> - Johanes test and program

> - Water tested twice a year

> - Monthly milk test (standard plate, choloform, growth inhibitors,

> Somatic cell count).

> - Milk test must be through a state monitored lab.

>

> In Pennsylvania, there are two kinds of raw milk permits: *Customer

> container permit* <snip> and *Prefilled Container Permit* <snip> "

> So basically, the cows must be healthy, they must be drinking " clean "

> water

> and the milk has to be monitored (according to the same article: OPDC does

> this per batch, not just per month!). For prefilled containers, the dairy

> must have acceptable sanitization equipment. These requests are all within

> reason and IMHO they are all things the farmer should be doing anyway,

> permit or no.

>

> I admire anyone running a small business as the US really isn't set up to

> support small businesses. It sucks, but it isn't just small farms that are

> being harassed by requirements that cost money - every small business out

> there has these seemingly impossible financial responsibilities to meet.

> It

> is part of being a small business. It is very sad, especially when I think

> about all the small businesses I've ever worked for... not one was

> breaking

> even. Then again, most of the large corporations I've worked for weren't

> either. It is sad and scary that almost everything in this country gets

> done by borrowing money/being in debt (perhaps with the exception of the

> big

> corporations we all have come to know and hate: Monsanto, Pharma, etc).

>

> -Lana

>

>

> > Perhaps what small farmers can't understand is why they should jump

> > through all these hoops just to make a living. <snip>

>

> > Perhaps one dairy farmer in PA is just sick of it. I

> > know one farmer in TN is!

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

In light of all this, for a small farmer that is considering selling items,

how would I go about finding the rules and regs for my state (well, for any

state for that matter). My goal is to one day be able to sell bone broth,

fermented sodas, and such. Not any dairy product at this time. No desire to

get a licensed dairy going, plenty of those around so we just milk for

ourselves. How or where on earth would I look to find the specifics on

selling anything? I don't have a clue where to start! I happen to live in

WA, but I'll bet there are more wanna be farmers out there that are in the

same boat. Chrissie

Bunnyearsfamily Heritage Farm

firstclassskagitcounty.org

Stanwood, WA

[Guest guest]

I called the TN Dept of Agriculture main office in Nashville. The

extension office in your area might have a person who knows the law

but ours did not. They will send you all sorts of written material and

answer most of your questions.

When we built our custom slaughter they would not tell us what was

required. They told us to build it and they would inspect. Really nice

idea if you have the money to keep rebuilding. We ran into the

inspector at our local mom & pop store and got the information we needed

from him. You might run into the same thing. I think they want you to

hire a " specialist " to build your facility, we didn't have that kind

of money.

I'm 99% sure that you'll need a separate place to make your broth (not

your kitchen) as well as a separate storage area (not your

refrigerator) for pet food only.

Be aware that when your inspector changes the rules change as well.

Laws don't necessarily change, just the way individuals interpret them.

Belinda

>

> In light of all this, for a small farmer that is considering selling

items,

> how would I go about finding the rules and regs for my state (well,

for any

> state for that matter). My goal is to one day be able to sell bone

broth,

> fermented sodas, and such. Not any dairy product at this time. No

desire to

> get a licensed dairy going, plenty of those around so we just milk for

> ourselves. How or where on earth would I look to find the specifics on

> selling anything? I don't have a clue where to start! I happen to

live in

> WA, but I'll bet there are more wanna be farmers out there that are

in the

> same boat. Chrissie

>

>

>

> Bunnyearsfamily Heritage Farm

>

> firstclassskagitcounty.org

>

> Stanwood, WA

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Excellent rant!!!!

I don't need or expect the government to " save " me from anything. Why a

license on raw milk? Because the government wants to big brother the small

farmers.

In TN you can get a permit to spray commercial round up as part of your lawn

business for 25 dollars. If you want to sell NATIVE PLANTS you pay 200

dollars for a license. Explain that to me!

Nanette L.

Re: PA Farmer arrested for selling raw milk

Please note that the following is not directed at any individual, the

" you " is just a general youse guys.

If you needed a permit to do most anything that would net you some

income there might, just might, come a time when you just HAD ENOUGH.

This could very well be the point most small farmers are coming to.

For a start we can look at vegetables, not nearly as controversial as

dairy. In order for me to legally sell vegetable plants in Tennessee

I need to be a licensed green house, inspected, naturally.

Move another step forward and sell the veggies themselves and I need

an inspected sales place. Yes, the roadside stand should be inspected.

Also, an inspected storage area. Remember not to store any leftovers

or dairy in with the veggies. This separate refrigerator is for your

vegetables only.

If selling herbs and they dry out they must not, under any

circumstances, be sold unless you have dried them in a licensed

inspected facility. You see, dried herbs are a processed food.

Those who produce hay are looking at a future in which each field's

production would be numbered and have to be kept separate. This will

be a real treat for those of us with small 10-15 acre plots of hay ground.

OK, now for live animals. I'm not sure about any animals but goats

and sheep. At this point to legally sell a goat or sheep I need to

have a scrapies tag attached to its ear. This is true for private

sales as well as auctions. Simple, right? Not really. When you apply

for the scrapies tag they automatically sign you up for the National

Animal Identification System. This wonderful system set you up for

future tagging of every animal on your farm, reporting every birth or

death within 24 hours and paying for every one of these events.

Ahhh yes, if only the farmer would abide by the law then all would be

well with the world!

As for cooperation. We have tried that but here's just a couple of

examples. The gov't official comes to inspect the custom slaughter

and tells us to remove the screen door we'd thought would better help

keep flies out. The next gov't official asks why the doorway has trim.

We reply that we had a screen door there. He tells us to put it back.

The gov't officials come to the door waving our web page and accuse us

of selling cheese and butter. The web page is advertising workshops to

learn to make these things. No matter, the mantra is " All cheese and

butter must be made in a licensed inspected facility. " We ask about

the demos we do at events, the fair, the programs for schools, the

mantra is the same, " All cheese and butter must be made in a licensed

inspected facility. " We say that we are making cheese presses and

can't possibly sell them if we can't demonstrate them, we show them

the presses. Still, " All cheese and butter must be made in a licensed

inspected facility. " We offer to build a licensed inspected facility

and ask if we can then bring people in to learn to make cheese and are

told that only employees would be allowed to handle the cheese. It's

all about cooperation, right? There are plenty more examples about

eggs, meat and dairy but my rant is about run out of steam.

Perhaps what small farmers can't understand is why they should jump

through all these hoops just to make a living. At times we sit and

wonder if the best thing wouldn't be to just sell this place to a

developer, blow the money in Vegas and live on welfare, eating the

crap the stores sell and running up medical bills for the general

public to pay. Perhaps one dairy farmer in PA is just sick of it. I

know one farmer in TN is!

I'm never able to keep up with all the posts on this group, especially

in the spring. Email me if you like and I'll try to respond.

Belinda

>

> > http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen04262008.html

> >

> > (I love counterpunch!!!)

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Monsanto is well-known for lining the pockets of officials and

regulators to get their way - who is doing that for healthy food or

native plants?? Who can afford to?

> >

> > > http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen04262008.html

> > >

> > > (I love counterpunch!!!)

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> I admire anyone running a small business as the US really isn't set up to

> support small businesses.

Why does the *****state***** have to support small businesses? Why

don't they just get the heck out of the way?

> It sucks, but it isn't just small farms that are

> being harassed by requirements that cost money - every small business out

> there has these seemingly impossible financial responsibilities to meet.

And to the extent that the state wants its piece of the pie, those

burdens are increased proportionally.

But even the ***very idea*** that the state can regulate what one

produces for food and what one can eat for food should be noxious to

anyone who is a lover of liberty.

For anyone who wants a good dose of how the state can literally

destroy people economically with their seemingly " commonsense " notions

of regulations, I would highly suggest Walter , _The State

Against Blacks_. It is an older read that is just as relevant today as

it was when first written.

http://www.amazon.com/State-Against-Blacks-Walter-/dp/0070703787

Hats off to people like Mark Nolt. It is just a reminder of the words

of Henry, " Give me liberty or give me the lesser of two

evils. " Oh wait, he didn't say that :-)

--

" And true manhood is shown not in the choice of a celibate life. On

the contrary, the prize in the contest of men is won by him who has

trained himself by the discharge of the duties of husband and father

and by the supervision of a household, regardless of pleasure and

pain. It is won by him, I say, who in the midst of his solicitude for

his family, shows himself inseparable from the love of God. "

- Clement of andria

[Guest guest]

Lana,

I understand that you believe the farmer should simply get the

necessary permits to do what they need to do to make a living. My

feeling is that I shouldn't have to have a permit to sell you

something, anything.

If this country is about freedom I should be able to eat whatever I

want which in turn means you should be able to sell it to me. It makes

me madder than a hatter to hear that officials have told people to

" buy a cow " if they want to drink raw milk.

Belinda

>

> Belinda,

>

> I truly understand that small farmers have financial issues with these

> things - and all the extra stress from the bureaucratic BS... But why

> bother to fight for legalization of these things in the first place if

> farmers aren't going to respect it? Sure, you could just sell on

the black

> market but that gives raw milk a bad image which is totally

> counterproductive to the efforts made to legalize it.

>

> Regarding the financial costs for the PA permit, according to

> http://www.realmilk.com/raw-milk-future.html:

>

> " There is no cost for the permit. There are costs for the tests that are

> required to receive the permit. Tests necessary to get the permit

include:

>

> - TB test annually

> - Johanes test and program

> - Water tested twice a year

> - Monthly milk test (standard plate, choloform, growth inhibitors,

> Somatic cell count).

> - Milk test must be through a state monitored lab.

>

> In Pennsylvania, there are two kinds of raw milk permits: *Customer

> container permit* <snip> and *Prefilled Container Permit* <snip> "

> So basically, the cows must be healthy, they must be drinking

" clean " water

> and the milk has to be monitored (according to the same article:

OPDC does

> this per batch, not just per month!). For prefilled containers, the

dairy

> must have acceptable sanitization equipment. These requests are all

within

> reason and IMHO they are all things the farmer should be doing anyway,

> permit or no.

>

> I admire anyone running a small business as the US really isn't set

up to

> support small businesses. It sucks, but it isn't just small farms

that are

> being harassed by requirements that cost money - every small

business out

> there has these seemingly impossible financial responsibilities to

meet. It

> is part of being a small business. It is very sad, especially when

I think

> about all the small businesses I've ever worked for... not one was

breaking

> even. Then again, most of the large corporations I've worked for

weren't

> either. It is sad and scary that almost everything in this country gets

> done by borrowing money/being in debt (perhaps with the exception of

the big

> corporations we all have come to know and hate: Monsanto, Pharma, etc).

>

> -Lana

>

>

> > Perhaps what small farmers can't understand is why they should jump

> > through all these hoops just to make a living. <snip>

>

>

>

> > Perhaps one dairy farmer in PA is just sick of it. I

> > know one farmer in TN is!

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

[belinda] [...] If you needed a permit to do most anything that would

net you some

> income there might, just might, come a time when you just HAD ENOUGH.

> This could very well be the point most small farmers are coming to. [...]

Belinda,

Wow! That was a *great* thorough post and very inspiring! I wasn't

even aware of those regulatory issues with veggies and so on. I

totally agree with you and Mark Nolt should be celebrated as a great

person for standing by the truth and not capitulating to government

corruption. I've followed the Nolt saga here in Pennsylvania and

though I don't know him personally I know a great many of his

colleagues in the area closer to me. It's incredibly tragic. The

issue is being able to sell raw cream and butter and other forms of

milk besides just the fresh whole milk. It just doesn't make sense to

have those restrictions. On the bright side, raw milk in PA seems to

be doing pretty well in general. I know a farmer who got a bottling

license recently and has his milk sold in a few spots in Philadelphia.

In fact, at the moment there's a small store that's open almost

everyday and stocks raw cow milk from three different farms, each with

a different breed of cow, and at least one source of raw goat milk.

As far as raw butter and cream, well, that's still done in secretive

ways by the farmers I know, or via " buying clubs " , which might be kind

of legal I think. I don't know if this is true, but I was told that

raw cow and goat milk can be legally sold in PA, but not sheep milk!

I have a great local source of raw sheep milk and it's pretty sad that

they suffer this arbitrary regulatory nonsense. They have a license

to sell their raw cow milk, yet have to treat their sheep milk

differently and have to be careful about selling it at all.

We still urgently need dramatic widespread strong revisions legalizing

unrestricted on-farm sales of anything a farmer produces. It's a basic

right. The current nickel-and-dime regulatory hoopla about raw milk

in CA and elsewhere is missing the forest for the trees.

Mike

[Guest guest]

The elite " banksters " who run our government (and pretty much the whole

world) want to extend their control grid and establish a scientific global

dictatorship.

Watch EndGame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement on Google Video.

http://whatistheendgame.com

http://infowars.com

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Anton <

michaelantonparker@...> wrote:

> [belinda] [...] If you needed a permit to do most anything that would

>

> net you some

> > income there might, just might, come a time when you just HAD ENOUGH.

> > This could very well be the point most small farmers are coming to.

> [...]

>

> Belinda,

> Wow! That was a *great* thorough post and very inspiring! I wasn't

> even aware of those regulatory issues with veggies and so on. I

> totally agree with you and Mark Nolt should be celebrated as a great

> person for standing by the truth and not capitulating to government

> corruption. I've followed the Nolt saga here in Pennsylvania and

> though I don't know him personally I know a great many of his

> colleagues in the area closer to me. It's incredibly tragic. The

> issue is being able to sell raw cream and butter and other forms of

> milk besides just the fresh whole milk. It just doesn't make sense to

> have those restrictions. On the bright side, raw milk in PA seems to

> be doing pretty well in general. I know a farmer who got a bottling

> license recently and has his milk sold in a few spots in Philadelphia.

> In fact, at the moment there's a small store that's open almost

> everyday and stocks raw cow milk from three different farms, each with

> a different breed of cow, and at least one source of raw goat milk.

> As far as raw butter and cream, well, that's still done in secretive

> ways by the farmers I know, or via " buying clubs " , which might be kind

> of legal I think. I don't know if this is true, but I was told that

> raw cow and goat milk can be legally sold in PA, but not sheep milk!

> I have a great local source of raw sheep milk and it's pretty sad that

> they suffer this arbitrary regulatory nonsense. They have a license

> to sell their raw cow milk, yet have to treat their sheep milk

> differently and have to be careful about selling it at all.

>

> We still urgently need dramatic widespread strong revisions legalizing

> unrestricted on-farm sales of anything a farmer produces. It's a basic

> right. The current nickel-and-dime regulatory hoopla about raw milk

> in CA and elsewhere is missing the forest for the trees.

>

> Mike

>

>

--

Rashad Tatum

----

" [W]e shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides

over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our

battles for us. The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone. It is to the

vigilant, the active, the brave. " - Henry on the fight for

independence

" The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in

Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating

no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people. "

Freedom Under Siege, 1987 by Ron

" I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than

standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by

posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large

scale. " - Jefferson

[Guest guest]

And then they tell you you can't have one because you don't have enough

acres, don't live in the right " zone " etc.

There's a funny bumper sticker out that says " When Chickens are

Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Chickens! "

--- In , " labelleacres " <bilherbs@...>

wrote:

>

> Lana,

>

> I understand that you believe the farmer should simply get the

> necessary permits to do what they need to do to make a living. My

> feeling is that I shouldn't have to have a permit to sell you

> something, anything.

>

> If this country is about freedom I should be able to eat whatever I

> want which in turn means you should be able to sell it to me. It makes

> me madder than a hatter to hear that officials have told people to

> " buy a cow " if they want to drink raw milk.

>

> Belinda

>

[Guest guest]

-

> The police state is here.

>

>

> Suze

>

Hello Suze..

We have been a police state for many decades. US has the largest

prison population by both numbers and % of its people in prison.

prison is big business. so are we a evil people/populace or is there

a problem with 'law' and 'enforcement'?

i know several doctors in the netherlands. they say the best thing

for their country was to legalize drugs.

it lowered the price of drugs so no more pushers. it emptied their

prisons and cut the drug use in half. the only place to buy the drugs

are in state stores and the stores are not attractive places to go.

but drugs are cheap. no more margin in drugs

we are a land of laws...no longer have our freedoms. the moniker

'where freedom rings' is a lie today.... we are controlled and

imprisoned.

hey, who is imprisoned for drugs? the lowly street pushers and

users. who makes the money? and big margin? who makes the money to

keep drugs illegal? the money makers are not the ones going to

prison... i can assure you of this

why keep the boarders open? drugs... there is no terrorist threat...

while i'm at it... the CIA is the enforcement/facilitator branch for

the fed reserve and world banks....with this realization much more of

the world events start to make sense...

control of the population and redistribution of wealth.... this is

what it is all about...including 'real milk'....

[Guest guest]

Nanette-

> I don't need or expect the government to " save " me from anything.

> Why a

> license on raw milk? Because the government wants to big brother the

> small

> farmers.

I think there's a key error many people are making here in assessing

the situation. While the government is supposed to be of people, by

the people and for the people, it's been co-opted by big business and

now it's of big business, by big business and for big business. And

yet most people seem furious at the concept of government itself

rather than at the Monsantos and Archer s Midlands of the world

which have taken over. Get rid of government and big business will

adjust its tools and tactics as necessary to achieve its ends; take

back government and we the people will actually have a modicum of

power with which to secure our freedoms again.

-

[Guest guest]

Well said, !!

-Lana

> I think there's a key error many people are making here in assessing

> the situation. While the government is supposed to be of people, by

> the people and for the people, it's been co-opted by big business and

> now it's of big business, by big business and for big business. And

> yet most people seem furious at the concept of government itself

> rather than at the Monsantos and Archer s Midlands of the world

> which have taken over. Get rid of government and big business will

> adjust its tools and tactics as necessary to achieve its ends; take

> back government and we the people will actually have a modicum of

> power with which to secure our freedoms again.

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

> Well said, !!

Thanks, Lana. I sometimes find it depressing that there's so much

short-sighted anarchist anti-government sentiment in the traditional

and (genuinely) healthy foods movement.

-

[Guest guest]

I truly and wholeheartedly agree. It is really nice to know I'm not the

only one that feels that way!

-Lana

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> > Well said, !!

>

> Thanks, Lana. I sometimes find it depressing that there's so much

> short-sighted anarchist anti-government sentiment in the traditional

> and (genuinely) healthy foods movement.

>

> -

>

[Guest guest]

According to the Community Environmental Legal Defence group who run

the Pennock School for Democracy, the government has always

been set up to protect the interests of big business/big money; but

yet it must maintain the illusion that it is run by " we the people " .

They've actually explored ways to find weaknesses in it's armor

so " we the people " can take back our government and make it more

democratic.

Here's a link: www.celdf.org/DemocracySchool/tabid/60/Default.aspx

They presented at the last PASA conference and one attendee gave them

a wonderful review; perhaps WAPF will invite them for their next

conference - it certainly pertains to the issue of food sales.

--- In , Idol <paul.idol@...>

wrote:

>

> Nanette-

>

> > I don't need or expect the government to " save " me from

anything.

> > Why a

> > license on raw milk? Because the government wants to big brother

the

> > small

> > farmers.

>

> I think there's a key error many people are making here in

assessing

> the situation. While the government is supposed to be of people,

by

> the people and for the people, it's been co-opted by big business

and

> now it's of big business, by big business and for big business.

And

> yet most people seem furious at the concept of government itself

> rather than at the Monsantos and Archer s Midlands of the

world

> which have taken over. Get rid of government and big business

will

> adjust its tools and tactics as necessary to achieve its ends;

take

> back government and we the people will actually have a modicum of

> power with which to secure our freedoms again.

>

> -

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> I think there's a key error many people are making here in assessing

> the situation. While the government is supposed to be of people, by

> the people and for the people, it's been co-opted by big business

> and now it's of big business, by big business and for big business.

> And yet most people seem furious at the concept of government itself

> rather than at the Monsantos and Archer s Midlands of the

> world which have taken over. Get rid of government and big business

> will adjust its tools and tactics as necessary to achieve its ends;

> take back government and we the people will actually have a modicum

> of power with which to secure our freedoms again.

, I think you're exactly right. The real challenge is to win

people's minds from the constant brainwashing that comes from big

money advertising and influence on perceived " science " . The other big

factor to overcome is the huge amount of lobbying and bribery from big

money interests.

It's a difficult challenge. But again, the key is persuading enough

people to get involved and elect responsible legislators as well as to

vote with their dollars by purchasing foods and products that support

what we want in business. Easier said than done, when most people are

already brainwashed. It's also tough if you have a limited budget.

More people may have to go back to being self-sufficient.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Lana. I sometimes find it depressing that there's so much

> > short-sighted anarchist anti-government sentiment in the traditional

> > and (genuinely) healthy foods movement.

>

i think the anti-government movement goes beyond traditional foods.

you will meet many within the traditional foods movement as the same

people who are tired of the lies and loss of freedoms are the same

people who research many topics including food... we do not take to

'spoon feeding' propagated distorted truths. and food is part of the

industrial/governmental lie.

Washington would be considered a anti-government

anarchist/terrorist by todays definition. i like Washington.

he did not act for wealth or comfort but because it was the right

thing to do. at least most americans would view his life and history

this way. i suppose unless one was english.

was george washington short sighted?

i think the revolution took place with 30% of the populace support.

this is what it takes for change. we are at 10%

i think during the revolution it was split 1/3 change/ 1/3 apathetic/

1/3 establishment

[Guest guest]

dcw338,

> Hello Suze..

>

> We have been a police state for many decades.

True, but the advantage/disadvantage of the current administration is

that more people have become aware of and are reacting to it. How much

that will matter in the end I don't know. Lots of people saw the rise

of Hitler and what it portended, but nonetheless only a very view took

action before it was too late. Ludwig Von Mises was said to be going

out the back window when the Nazi's were knocking at his front door

after his ideas became politically unpopular. Fortunately for him,

seeing what was coming, he had already sent his family out of the

country. Unfortunately, he lost his library, something which is very

very difficult for a scholar.

Mises: The Last Knight of Liberalism

http://snipurl.com/268dn

> US has the largest

> prison population by both numbers and % of its people in prison.

>

> prison is big business. so are we a evil people/populace or is there

> a problem with 'law' and 'enforcement'?

The world has definitely taken notice of this very problem and is

quite critical of it. We have fallen a long way since the days when

our criminal justice system was admired the world over. As the French

foreign minister recently said referring to America, " The Magic is

Gone. "

--

" And true manhood is shown not in the choice of a celibate life. On

the contrary, the prize in the contest of men is won by him who has

trained himself by the discharge of the duties of husband and father

and by the supervision of a household, regardless of pleasure and

pain. It is won by him, I say, who in the midst of his solicitude for

his family, shows himself inseparable from the love of God. "

- Clement of andria

[Guest guest]

,

> , I think you're exactly right. The real challenge is to win

> people's minds from the constant brainwashing that comes from big

> money advertising and influence on perceived " science " . The other big

> factor to overcome is the huge amount of lobbying and bribery from big

> money interests.

>

> It's a difficult challenge. But again, the key is persuading enough

> people to get involved and elect responsible legislators as well as to

> vote with their dollars by purchasing foods and products that support

> what we want in business. Easier said than done, when most people are

> already brainwashed. It's also tough if you have a limited budget.

> More people may have to go back to being self-sufficient.

That is all fine and well but exactly how would one go about saving

people from their brainwashing? And while you are at it can you

provide an historical example where such a dramatic altering of the

people's mindset was ever accomplished peacefully?

--

" And true manhood is shown not in the choice of a celibate life. On

the contrary, the prize in the contest of men is won by him who has

trained himself by the discharge of the duties of husband and father

and by the supervision of a household, regardless of pleasure and

pain. It is won by him, I say, who in the midst of his solicitude for

his family, shows himself inseparable from the love of God. "

- Clement of andria