goitrogens

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/10/2002 5:03:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, ekjns@... writes:

Thanks for the information I did not realize even about goitrogens and

your information was quite enlightening!

,

You're welcome! I remember when I first got started with the whole hypothyroid thing I was eating a ton of soy and I always loved to eat raw cauliflower. The goiter in my neck would ache terribly the more soy I ate or drank. When I found the thyroid.about.com website and read about the downsides of soy and then gave up raw cauliflower and breads with millet in it, I felt a whole lot better.

I didn't know about the possible goitrogenic connection with peaches and strawberries, though. I've never particularly liked them even as a child. But it will be interesting to experiment to see if they bother me this spring when strawberry season gets into full swing and next fall when peaches come out!

in LA

"We are each responsible for our own life--no other person is or even *can* be." Oprah Winfrey

[Guest guest]

h,

Thanks for the information I did not realize even about goitrogens and

your information was quite enlightening!

T.

=====

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I agree with this list, however, don't they only pose the risk if

they are raw??? I got the distint impression that cooking them takes

out the danger?

p.

> Here's a list of foods I've found in various website places listed

as

> goitrogens. There seems to be a wide number of them though not all

are

> duplicated at each website. But generally the list with the

highest

> consensus includes:

>

> brussels sprouts

> rutabaga

> turnip

> cauliflower

> African cassava

> millet

> babassu

> cabbage

> kale

> soybeans

> broccoli

> sweet potatoes

>

> Additional food items considered by some to be goitrogens:

> strawberries

> spinach

> peaches

> sorghum

> maize

> peanuts

> radishes

> mustard

> horseradish

> lima beans

> pine nuts

>

> Below, I've quoted a few websites and listed the links in case you

want to

> plow through the text:

>

> From:

> http://thyroid.about.com/library/drugs/bl-goitrogen.htm?

terms=goitrogens

> " Goitrogenic foods like brussels sprouts, rutabaga, turnips,

cauliflower,

> African cassava, millet, babassu (a palm-tree coconut fruit popular

in Brazil

> and Africa) cabbage, and kale can act like the antithyroid drugs

> propylthiouracil and methimazole in disabling the thyroid function,

so they

> should not be eaten in large amounts by someone on thyroid hormone

> replacement who still has a thyroid. It's thought that the enzymes

involved

> in the formation of goitrogenic materials in plants can be

destroyed by

> cooking, so thorough cooking may minimize goitrogenic potential. "

> Next, from: http://www.geocities.com/cheeaungroup2001/Goiter.htm

> " Sporadic goiters are caused by swallowing of large amounts of

certain foods

> or drugs and do not affect any particular segment of the

population.

> Goitrogenic foods contain substances that decrease thyroid hormone

> production. Examples of these foods are rutabagas, cabbage,

soybeans,

> peanuts, peaches, strawberries, spinach, and radishes. Drugs

include lithium,

> cobalt, iodides, phenylbutazone, and others. "

>

> From: http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-2.htm

> " Dietary Goitrogens

>

> The discovery of natural and synthetic substances that impair the

synthesis

> of thyroid hormone are landmarks in the history of pharmacology.<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#131.

Chesney AM " >131</A> These

> substances are discussed in more detail in Chapter 20. Although

iodide

> deficiency is, without doubt, the major cause of endemic goiter and

cretinism

> throughout the world, dietary goitrogens may play a contributing

role in some

> endemics, and may possibly be the dominant factor in certain areas.

The

> dietary goitrogens fall into several categories, more than one of

which may

> occur in the same food.Certain foods contain cyanogenic

glucosides,<A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#132. Ermans AM " >132</A>

> compounds that, upon hydrolysis by glucosidase, release free

cyanide. These

> foods include almond seeds and such important dietary items as

cassava,

> sorghum, maize, and millet. Cassava contains enough cyanogenic

glucoside to

> be lethal if large quantities are consumed raw. Ordinarily, the

root is

> extensively soaked, then dried and powdered. Most of the cyanide is

lost in

> this process; that left in the root is liberated after ingestion

and

> converted to SCN-. Chronic poisoning due to cassava is responsible

for a

> tropical neuropathy in Nigeria<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#133.

Monekasso GL " >133</A> and Tanzania, and is suspected of being a

> contributing cause of goiter in Central Africa.<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#134.

Delange F, " >134,135</A> Other important

> classes of antithyroid compounds arise from hydrolysis of the

thioglucosides.<A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#132. Ermans AM " >

> 132</A><A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#136. Langer P " >,136,137</A> These compounds are

metabolized in the body to goitrin or

> thiocyanates and isothiocyanates, and ultimately to other sulfur

containing

> compounds, or are excreted as such. They are important in the

goitrogenic

> activity of seeds of plants of the genus Brassica and the

cruciferae,

> compositae, and unbelliferae. Among the plants containing these

compounds are

> cabbage, kale, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, kohlrabi, turnip,

rutabaga,

> mustard, and horseradish. Cattle may ingest these goitrogens and

pass them to

> humans through milk, as observed in Australia,<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#138.

Clements FW " >138</A> Finland,<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#139.

Peltola P: " >139,140</A> and

> England.<A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#141. Kilpatrick R " >141</A> . The isothiocynate,

cheiroline, occurs in the leaves of

> choumoellier and may be related to a focal area of endemic goiter

in

> Australia. The goitrogen is thought to be transmitted from forage

to cows, to

> milk, and finally to children. Although there is considerable

circumstantial

> evidence relating these compounds to endemic goiter, it has been

difficult to

> prove their role with certainty.Thiocyanate is a well-known

inhibitor of

> iodide trapping when in high concentration in blood. The blood

levels

> obtained by ingestion of dietary goitrogens are rarely of this

degree.

> Inhibition of iodide trapping, and thyroid peroxidase activity, and

> augmentation of urinary iodide loss, as demonstrated by Delange and

Ermans

> and co-workers, all my play a role in the goitrogenic activity.<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#132.

Ermans AM " >132,134,135 </A>

> Astwood et al. and Greer<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#142.

Astwood EB, " >142,143</A> found that turnips contain progoitrin, which

> is a mustard oil thioglycoside. It undergoes rearrangement by

enzymes in

> human enteric bacteria, or in the turnip, to be converted to

goitrin, an

> active goitrogenic thioglycoside, L-5-vinyl-2-thio-oxazolidone.<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#144.

Langer P " >144,145</A>

> Goitrin inhibits oxidation of iodine and its binding to thyroid

protein in

> the same way as do the thiocarbamides.Several endemics of goiter

have been

> attributed to dietary goitrogens, usually acting together with

iodine

> deficiency. Goitrin is apparently present in cow's milk in

Finland.<A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#146. Arstila A, " >146</A> In the

> Pedgregoso region of Chile, pine nuts of the tree Araucaria

americana are

> made into a flour and consumed in large amounts, and may be related

to

> endemic goiter.<A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#147. Barzelatto J " >147,148</A> In the Cauca river valley

of Colombia,

> sulfur-containing compounds found in the water supply, derived from

> sedimentary rocks containing a large amount of organic matter, are

believed

> to be responsible for endemic goiter.<A

HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-biblio.htm#149.

Gaitan E, " >149</A> At least, extracts from these waters

> are goitrogenic in rats. Pearl millet has been reportd to cause

goiter develop

> ment in goats <A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#149a. Abel Gadir WS " >149a</A>.Other mechanisms may also

contribute to dietary

> goitrogenicity. Thus, diets high in soybean components or other

materials

> increasing fecal bulk may cause excess fecal loss of T4 and

increase the need

> for this hormone.<A HREF= " http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-

biblio.htm#150. McCarrison R: " >150-153</A> These diets are low in

iodine content, and soybean

> has been thought but not proven to contain a goitrogen. "

>

> From: http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Concern/Hypothyroidism.htm

> and: http://www.theholisticchannel.com/Concern/Hypothyroidism.htm

> and:

> http://www.laurushealth.com/Library/HealthGuide/CAM/topic.asp?

hwid=hn-concern-

>

> hypothyroidism

> " Some foods, such as rapeseed (used to make canola oil) and

Brassica <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Vegetables.htm " >

> vegetables</A> (<A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Cabbage.htm " >cabbage<

/A>, <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Brussels_Sprouts.htm "

>Brussels sprouts</A>, <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Broccoli.htm " >broccol

i</A>, and <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Cauliflower.htm " >caul

iflower</A>), contain

> natural goitrogens, chemicals that cause the thyroid gland to

enlarge by

> interfering with thyroid hormone synthesis.1 Cooking has been

reported to

> inactivate this effect in Brussels sprouts.2 Cassava, a starchy

root that is

> the source of tapioca, has also been identified as a goitrogenic

food.3 Other

> goitrogens include maize, <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Sweet_Potatoes.htm " >s

weet potatoes</A>, <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Lima_Beans.htm " >lima

beans</A>, <A

HREF= " http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Food_Guide/Soybeans_And_Soy_Food

s.htm " >soy</A>, and pearl millet.4

> While some practitioners recommend that people with hypothyroidism

avoid

> these foods, none has been proven to cause hypothyroidism in

humans. "

[Guest guest]

Oh I know!!! My son and I LOVE them...and blueberries!!!

> ,

> Ironically strawberries are one of my favorite foods every spring I

make

> tons of jam! Oh well maybe I will make blackberry jam this year:)

> - T.

>

> =====

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Oh I know!!! My son and I LOVE them...and blueberries!!!

> ,

> Ironically strawberries are one of my favorite foods every spring I

make

> tons of jam! Oh well maybe I will make blackberry jam this year:)

> - T.

>

> =====

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

[] My understanding is the goitrogenic properties of cabbage, etc.,

can be inactivated to a large degree by cooking. Is fermentation

similarly effective in this regard?

[Mike] I don't have any great references for this, but I've read many

times that this is happily the case. I've taken it as common wisdom,

but it would be great to learn more about the relative merits of heat

treatment and fermentation for deactivating the goitrogens. For an

unreferenced statement of this " common wisdom " , here's something from

the WAP site:

[http://www.westonaprice.org/women/natural_protection.html] As raw

cruciferous vegetables contain goitrogens, it is best to eat them

fermented, because fermentation neutralizes these thyroid-depressing

substances. (Cooking also neutralizes the goitrogens, but also

deactivates I3C.)

[Mike] The issue is surely more subtle though, as there may be a huge

variety of goitrogens that respond differently to these treatments.

The passage below is an interesting claim consistent with what I've

gleaned elsewhere in the past, the crucial fact that phytoestrogens

are NOT deactivated by fermentation. In fact, I've seen claims that

their bioactivity is INCREASED by fermentation, which seems consistent

with the general effects of fermentation as a process that can both

promote and inhibit various substances. Apparently phytoestrogens, or

at least the specific ones commonly discussed in reference to their

presence in soy, are one of many classes of goitrogens. So it's an

example of a goitrogen not neutralized by fermentation. This is a

hugely important point often missed by people who adopt simplistic

concepts like " fermentation makes everything better " . To the extent

these phytoestrogens are beneficial (e.g. shifting a person's hormonal

system), the fermentation is a benefit; at the same time, to the

extent these phytoestrogens are detrimental (e.g. goitrogenic and/or

shifting a person's hormonal system), the fermentation makes them no

less detrimental and possibly more detrimental.

You will find a TON of inaccurate information about this topic, mostly

third-hand info where people make " fermentation makes everything

better " statements about soy, etc. I've seen totally wrong info on

dozens of webpages in the past and even right now during my quick

google on the topic.

[http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/NNF05Soy.htm] Soybeans

contain goitrogens. . . . Soy is not the only goitrogenic food.

Broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, cassava, rapeseed, turnips,

mustard, radish, peanuts, and millet also contain goitrogens. However,

few adults-and even fewer children-eat these foods to excess.

Furthermore, the goitrogens in most of these foods are easily

neutralized by cooking or fermentation.

Soy foods are different. The principal goitrogens in soybeans are the

estrogenic plant hormones known as isoflavones. The antinutrients

known as saponins in soy may also be goitrogens. Cooking and

processing methods, using heat, pressure, and alkaline solutions, will

neither deactivate nor remove isoflavones or saponins. Only solvent

extraction can do that. . . . America is plagued by an epidemic of

thyroid problems.

[Mike] Here's something I found I don't really understand, but at the

least it suggests that we may not be able to make easy generalizations

about fermentation and goitrogens.

[http://tinyurl.com/bnc2n] Epidemiological evidence suggests that

millet might play a role in the etiology of endemic goiter. Recently,

we showed that a traditional fermentation procedure of two pearl

millet (Pennisetum americanum L. Lecke) cultivars grown in Sudan

modified their effects on the weight of the thyroid gland and thyroid

hormone profile in rats. In the present study, we report that this

fermentation procedure reduced the ash contents of millet by about 40%

and removed considerable amounts of Mg (>50%), Zn (27-39%) and K

(45%). Other minerals (Ca, Fe, Cu) were not affected. Feeding of one

fermented cultivar resulted in significant reduction in bone Mg and Zn

contents, whereas feeding of the other fermented cultivar resulted in

reduction of bone Mg only. Dietary Mg intake and bone Mg contents

correlated negatively with serum T3. Groups fed the millet diets had

higher serum Se level compared to those fed wheat or casein diets and

feeding of fermented millet resulted in a further increase in serum Se

level. Thus our data indicate that in rats the enhanced effects of

millet on the thyroid induced by fermentation is likely related to

removal of minerals from millet and/or chemical transformation of the

goitrogens contained in millet.

[Mike] So I guess there are lots of different kinds of goitrogens in

different foods and we have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Just

from the above, we can see that brassicas, soy, and millet all behave

differently in the way of fermentation and goitrogenicity. For the

cases of brassica ferments, I'd wager the goitrogens are deactivated

just on the basis of their unproblematic widespread traditional usage.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

Well, I knew what titration meant and if you do that by the decrease

in symptoms I can understand that but for someone that doses by TSH,

you are getting a lot of blood tests just to eat those types of foods.

I didn't understand why someone would eat a lot of it and having a

lot of blood tests so they know where they're at. Doesn't make sense

to me.

Thanks for the explanation though.

Venizia

> >

> > I do not understand your statement of " titrate to accommodate the

> > difference. " How do I know what the difference is?...

>

> If you are truly eating enough broccoli to reduce serum T3 levels while

> taking some form of thyroxine, this will either manifest as an increase

> in TSH, hypoT symptoms, or both. Titration simply means you increase

> your dosage to compensate, so you reach the same level, however you

> determine it. For most of us, this means increasing the dose until the

> TSH is appropriate. For folks dosing on symptoms, it means increasing

> the (average) dosage until the hypoT symptoms stay gone but not so far

> that you become hyperT. Both adjustments are termed " titration. "

>

> Cruciferous (Brassica) vegetables are mainly a problem for the thyroid

> gland for production of levothyroxine and for iodine uptake by the

> thyroid gland. It is unlikely that you will eat enough to significantly

> affect an orally administered medication as long as you ingest them

> separately. Soy and fluoride, however, attack the various forms of the

> hormone in the blood and not just in the gland.

>

> Two mechanisms have been identified to explain this effect. This family

> of vegetables, which sadly includes mustard, radish, and horse radish,

> is rich in glucosinolates. This is the class of chemicals that puts the

> " bite " in all these vegetables, and is probably why they are popular.

> Incidentally, I put horse radish in my scrambled eggs along with the

> turmeric.

>

> Anyway, some of the glucosinolates produce a compound known as goitrin,

> which interferes with thyroid hormone _synthesis_. Another class of

> glucosinolates (indole glucosinolate), releases thiocyanate ions, which

> compete with iodine for _uptake_ by the thyroid gland. This chemical

> seems to be relatively harmless (for hypoT risk) unless it is

> accompanied by iodine deficiency. The two conditions have synergistic

> effects. You can also get a lot of thiocyanate from smoking.

>

> Interestingly, the glucosinolates are also suspected of causing the

> slight (and controversial) cancer risk benefit from the cruciferous

> vegetables, because they interfere with other hormone production, in

> addition to thyroxine. That includes estrogen and could have

> significance for menopause.

>

> One study in humans found consumption of 150 g/day (5 oz/day) of cooked

> Brussels sprouts for four weeks had absolutely no effect on thyroid

> function, however that is no guarantee. They may have been getting

> plenty of iodine.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

venizia1948 wrote:

>

> ... I didn't understand why someone would eat a lot of it and having a

> lot of blood tests so they know where they're at. Doesn't make sense

> to me.

It doesn't make sense to adjust while changing the diet. However, if you

like those vegetables, you can eat them regularly and adjust the dosage

to match your regular diet. Again, I doubt that they will have much of

an effect on an oral medication anyway. In principle, if you ate nothing

but vegetables, you could adjust the dosage and still be comfortable

with no harm done.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Laree,

> I understand goitrogens are somewhat removed through steaming or

> cooking cruciferous vegetables, but does anyone know if fermenting does

> the same?

No, it activates them, but this is ok as long as you get a little extra iodine.

I have two articles on this subject, which overlap only partially, one

free on the WAPF site and one available for purchase but with free

abstract on my site:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/crucifers.html

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Goitrogen-Special-Report.html

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Chris! I just ordered about a year's worth of Iodoral yesterday so

guess I won't worry about my sauerkraut craze. :-)

Laree