Re: Re: Your opinion please - butter / butterfat

[Guest guest]

Gentlemen,

In all honesty, I think I will be wondering what my SFA, MUFA, SUFA ratios are

for quite some time in regards to overall triglycerides & other fat mechanisms.

Just, Jim

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

,

> Do you have any hard data on the risks posed by high consumption of

> MUFA? Obviously consuming MUFA is inevitable, but might it be a bad

> idea to rely on, say, macadamia oil as a staple as opposed to

> something like coconut oil?

I haven't seen a lot of info comparing MUFA to SFA but what I've seen

indicates that they are similar with respect to oxidative stress. A

very high MUFA intake, especially with low PUFA intake (ratio of

>10:1) will elevate Mead acid, which might be good or bad depending on

whether it does anything important. I suspect it's easier to

desaturate SFA to MUFA than to saturated MUFA to SFA, so if one is

consuming way too much MUFA as a proportion of calories I suppose this

could lead to a relative deficiency in SFA. On the other hand, it

might be that it is easier to synthesize MUFA from carb than from SFA,

since the delta-9 desaturase is regulated as part of the network of

fatty acid synthesis enzymes, so it is probably similarly harmful to

consume way too much SFA relative to MUFA.

So I think it makes the most sense to consume somewhere around half

and half, which seems to be roughly what you get from ruminant fat,

which I think is somewhat of an indication of the mammalian need for

the two types.

Chris

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

[Guest guest]

,

>> I haven't seen a lot of info comparing MUFA to SFA but what I've seen

>> indicates that they are similar with respect to oxidative stress.

> I'd gotten that impression, and yet it seems quite surprising, even

> hard to believe.

In a way it's kind of a moot point because your body naturally makes

lots of MUFA. The main vulnerable carbon for oxidation is the one

that is single-bonded to two adjascent carbons that have double bonds

on each side, not the carbon of the double bond itself, and MUFA

doesn't have such a carbon. That makes it easier to believe for me,

especially since I had wrongly had the impression for years that it

was the carbon actually participating in the double bond that gets

oxidized.

>> So I think it makes the most sense to consume somewhere around half

>> and half, which seems to be roughly what you get from ruminant fat,

>> which I think is somewhat of an indication of the mammalian need for

>> the two types.

> This seems like a reasonable guess, so it would seem that it might be

> a good idea to balance any highly-saturated oils (like coconut) with

> some highly-mono-unsaturated oils (like macadamia) if such oils make

> up a significant portion of calories (in an attempt to drop PUFA down

> to 1% of calories on a high-fat diet, for example).

I agree. On a lower-fat diet like the one Ray Peat recommends

(apparently 25% fat according to second-hand source), using pure

coconut oil wouldn't present that problem because you'd have plenty of

carbs to stimulate MUFA production but on a high-fat diet I would

shoot for the mix. Doing so would mimic animal fat but without the

excess of PUFA that occurs when the total fat goes very high.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> This makes sense. From what I've read, pigs basically deposit the

> fats they consume, so the lipid profile of lard and pork should be

> extremely dependent on the pigs' diet. I don't know what they convert

> dietary carbs to, though. MUFA? SFA? A mixture?

I imagine a mix since I would think pigs would be like most other

mammals (animals?) in needing such a mix, and because I think the

basic fatty acid synthesis machinery is conserved across all mammals

(which makes palmitate in the mitochondria and then modifies it by

elongation and/or desaturation in the ER as needed).

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> In a way it's kind of a moot point because your body naturally makes

> lots of MUFA.

Yeah, that's certainly true, but never let it be said that I'm not

interested in something just because it's moot. <g>

> I agree. On a lower-fat diet like the one Ray Peat recommends

> (apparently 25% fat according to second-hand source), using pure

> coconut oil wouldn't present that problem because you'd have plenty of

> carbs to stimulate MUFA production but on a high-fat diet I would

> shoot for the mix. Doing so would mimic animal fat but without the

> excess of PUFA that occurs when the total fat goes very high.

Might it be wise to consume some extra MUFA on a high-fat diet in

which most of the fat comes from dairy, in which there's a little more

than twice as much SFA as there is MUFA?

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> I imagine a mix since I would think pigs would be like most other

> mammals (animals?) in needing such a mix, and because I think the

> basic fatty acid synthesis machinery is conserved across all mammals

> (which makes palmitate in the mitochondria and then modifies it by

> elongation and/or desaturation in the ER as needed).

If the mixture is in roughly the same proportion as it is in other

mammals, then it would seem that pork and lard might be rendered just

as safe as beef fat with the correct feed. Too bad no such pork is

available around here. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

,

> Might it be wise to consume some extra MUFA on a high-fat diet in

> which most of the fat comes from dairy, in which there's a little more

> than twice as much SFA as there is MUFA?

Well this is just guesswork but it sounds like that might be a good

idea. Especially if you're using a lot of cream, so that you have a

much higher fat-to-carb ratio than the calf would be getting.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

>> > More generally, it's awfully hard to keep PUFA down to 1% of

>> calories

>> > or less when eating a high-fat diet.

>>

>> Yeah that is a tough one but one poster I know of seems to think it is

>> not impossible.

>

> Of course it's not impossible -- you could eat very lean meat, maybe

> skimmed dairy, and tons of coconut oil and other such low-PUFA fats --

> but I doubt such a diet would be desirable, and for most people it

> probably wouldn't be tolerable either.

>

> Or is there some other technique I'm not thinking of?

I don't know. I wasn't thinking of anything in particular just

agreeing with you but noting that another poster (who doesn't post

here but I think lurks) seems to think it is doable, although my own

personal take is only if you dramatically lower the animal fats and

increase the low-pufa nut/seed oils.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Hi,

As a fairly new member here, I am not sure what balance to strive for with

fats, my knowledge is limited. I think we all agree that it is about balance,

right? It is known that fats help transport vitamins A,D,E, & K. Fat is known

to help build brain & nerve tissue at the cellular level. Fat maintains skin,

hair & nails. And they can provide energy for low intensity sustained workouts.

For me, fat simply makes food smell & taste good & helps me feel full longer

since fats take longer to digest. Unfortunately fats frequently lead to

excessive caloric intake for me, probably because fats provide twice as many

calories per gram as carbs or proteins causing me to gain weight. Fats are

fabulous! They maintain body heat, protect vital organs, & give energy to

adolescence & expectant mothers alike.

The complicated ratios in SFA, Trans Fats, PUFA(omega 3 & 6), & MUFA can be a

bit overwhelming to me at times. I leave that to the experts such as the AHA,

ADA, & the ACS.

Just, Jim

<slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

,

>> > More generally, it's awfully hard to keep PUFA down to 1% of

>> calories

>> > or less when eating a high-fat diet.

>>

>> Yeah that is a tough one but one poster I know of seems to think it is

>> not impossible.

>

> Of course it's not impossible -- you could eat very lean meat, maybe

> skimmed dairy, and tons of coconut oil and other such low-PUFA fats --

> but I doubt such a diet would be desirable, and for most people it

> probably wouldn't be tolerable either.

>

> Or is there some other technique I'm not thinking of?

I don't know. I wasn't thinking of anything in particular just

agreeing with you but noting that another poster (who doesn't post

here but I think lurks) seems to think it is doable, although my own

personal take is only if you dramatically lower the animal fats and

increase the low-pufa nut/seed oils.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

[Guest guest]

Jim,

> The complicated ratios in SFA, Trans Fats, PUFA(omega 3 & 6), & MUFA can

> be a bit overwhelming to me at times. I leave that to the experts such as

> the AHA, ADA, & the ACS.

Well that souds like a total and absolute dietary disaster. I don't

know how the ACS is but if they recommend anything like what the AHA

and ADA recommends I think you're in trouble.

You don't have to calculate anything. Just adjust what you consider

" good " and bad " accordingly:

Fats to use freely: butter, tallow, lamb fat, coconut oil, macadamia nut oil

Fats to use regularly in small amounts: egg yolks (three a day),

high-vitamin cod liver oil (1/2 tsp/day)

Fats that are ok to use in moderation: lard, olive oil, red palm oil

Fats that are ok to compromise with sometimes: high-oleic safflower

oil, high-oleic sunflower oil

Fats that should not be used at all: soybean oil, canola oil,

safflower oil, sunflower oil, flax oil, any oils high in PUFA.

Hope that helps,

Chris

[Guest guest]

Connie,

> Shallow question: for the perfect old-fashioned stove-top popcorn,

> which of those fats would you use? it needs one with a smoke point

> about 350 or more.

I think ghee would probably work best, although coconut oil is good.

I left out ghee but I guess it is included in butter.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks

Sometimes I feel that the big agencies are only responding to profit

coorporations.

Just, Jim

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

Jim,

> The complicated ratios in SFA, Trans Fats, PUFA(omega 3 & 6), & MUFA can

> be a bit overwhelming to me at times. I leave that to the experts such as

> the AHA, ADA, & the ACS.

Well that souds like a total and absolute dietary disaster. I don't

know how the ACS is but if they recommend anything like what the AHA

and ADA recommends I think you're in trouble.

You don't have to calculate anything. Just adjust what you consider

" good " and bad " accordingly:

Fats to use freely: butter, tallow, lamb fat, coconut oil, macadamia nut oil

Fats to use regularly in small amounts: egg yolks (three a day),

high-vitamin cod liver oil (1/2 tsp/day)

Fats that are ok to use in moderation: lard, olive oil, red palm oil

Fats that are ok to compromise with sometimes: high-oleic safflower

oil, high-oleic sunflower oil

Fats that should not be used at all: soybean oil, canola oil,

safflower oil, sunflower oil, flax oil, any oils high in PUFA.

Hope that helps,

Chris

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> Well this is just guesswork but it sounds like that might be a good

> idea. Especially if you're using a lot of cream, so that you have a

> much higher fat-to-carb ratio than the calf would be getting.

Yeah, in my case I get the vast majority of my dairy fat from heavy

cream, and heavy cream is undoubtedly my primary fat source. I've

been sort of wondering whether I should try to incorporate some

regular macadamia oil into my diet somehow; I guess now I'll make a

point of it.

-

[Guest guest]

On 5/22/08, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> I think they are getting targetted by PR the worst - the dairy

> marketing board, soy group, etc. Probably they're getting nice

> donations as well, which would keep them from saying anything against

> those products.

The AHA gets a huge amount of its funding by selling its heart-healthy

seal to manufacturers of processed junk food. I don't know if they're

being " targeted " so much as having their own heavy-hitting marketing

campaign. They call themselves " non-profit " but there isn't much

difference between a president who makes >$600,000/yr to make selling

their " non-profit " seal bring in the big bucks and a CEO who makes the

same amount of money selling lots of... cars, or whatever else.

They also market junk science to get government funding. When

explaining how they created the myth that heart disease has been

declining since they have started the campaign against cholesterol and

saturated fat, the president of the AHA stated in the Wall Street

Journal, as quoted in Colpo's _The Great Cholesterol Con_, " Our

philosophy was that to get more money from politicians, we had to show

that good things were happening. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

A month or so ago you or another member provided a link to the Taubes

interview on Good Calories Bad Calories, it was great! It shatters the myth of

government funded calorie, cholesterol, low-fat, etc. as mere propaganda. Since

then I have blasted other groups with the Good-Bad concepts, not always well

received at first, but insightful once anyone starts to think about it,

especially considering that most of the regimes out there are all calorie

focused.

The excerpt you quoted from me was was from someone else caloric input & more

of a vain attempt to achieve so sort of balance to it all, as I am easily

overwhelmed at times. How would T., a journalist, term the amount of food

eaten, simply as a portion, combined, or what? Refresh me on that one, ok.

Just, Jim

<mattandgina@...> wrote:

--- In , Igo <jimi761@...>

wrote:

>Unfortunately fats frequently lead to excessive caloric intake for me,

>probably because fats provide twice as many calories per gram as carbs

>or proteins causing me to gain weight.

Jim,

I think you should drop everything and read " Good Calories, Bad

Calories " by Taubes. He basically disproves your above statment.

Not all calories are the same and fat does not make you fat because it

does not trigger the release of insulin, which is the only mechanism by

which the body stores fat. Only sugars and grain-based carbs trigger

insulin. When you stop/decrease carb intake you make your body fat

available to be burned, and without the need to excercise.

Anyway, he goes much more in-depth than this. This is why low-carb

diets work! If you go back into the group message archives you can find

some links to videos of Taubes giving lectures on this subject. I

HIGHLY recommend watching them. He's quite brilliant, IMHO.

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo