Re: How come our stomcah acid doesn't kill the good bacteria

[Guest guest]

On 5/14/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

> Let's say I ate beans about 90 minutes ago and then ate some cabbage

> like 20 minutes ago and I have gas right now, which food is giving me

> the gas? In other words would the beans give me the gas closer to

> eating them or is gas produced toward the end of digestion? I know

> there's a better way to asking this question rather than making it

> into an SAT word problem, I am just really tired right now.

It should be at the very end, when the food is in the colon. If you

get gas earlier, that suggests you could have small intestinal

bacterial overgrowth (SIBO).

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 5/14/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

> So what a person ate like twenty minutes ago wouldn't have baring on

> lower intestinal gas?

>

> Is gas presence always a bad thing? Couldn't be someone just swallowed

> air while they were eating or is that mythology?

No, gas is not inherently bad. Beneficial organisms would produce

some gas too. However, if it smells nasty, that's a bad thing.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 5/14/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>

> I am glad you gave the answer for both. I didn't even think of upper

> intestinal but it's good to know..

>

> So what a person ate like twenty minutes ago wouldn't have baring on

> lower intestinal gas?

Nope, because it doesn't have the time to get down to the colon to be

fermented, of which gas is a byproduct.

Is gas presence always a bad thing?

No, a number of beneficial microbes put off gas as a byproduct of

fermentation. However, if the gas smells bad or is profuse that could mean

certain microbes have overcolonized which could be bad.

You can get mid-intestinal gas though, which is from small bowel bacterial

overgrowth and that is usually a bad thing.

Couldn't be someone just swallowed

> air while they were eating or is that mythology?

Generally when one swallows air, it comes back up as burps. The stomach and

intestines both compact food during digestion so having swallowed air in the

food when it gets to the colon hours later isn't very likely.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

If it is lower GI gas, there's a chance it is what you ate 8-18

> hours ago that is causing the gas.

>

I guess the hard part is knowing whether it was more toward the 8 hour

mark or the 18 hour mark when trying to backtrack to determine which

meal is the problem when one gets lower gas (aka farts)

[Guest guest]

Lana,

The research I am familiar with shows that extreme starches like potatoes take

up to four hours to digest, whereas meat can be digested in much less than 3

hours. An enzyme named ptylin(needed to digest starch) is found in the saliva,

the first digestive gland. When meat is eaten on top of starches, the ptylin

interferes with the protein digesting enzymes found in the stomach. The

inappropriate combination of starches on top of proteins can then lead to foul

smelling intestinal gas otherwise known as purification. Pavlov pretty much

proved this years ago. Not sure why it was not more widely accepted. It is my

guess that the varied research on specific digestive times still has a fairly

wide margin of standard deviation.

Just, Jim

Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

Jim,

Everything I have read indicates that potatoes are digested faster than most

meat except fish which digest at about the same rate (about 40 minutes),

grains and legumes are digested as fast as chicken (about 2 hours) and beef

and pork takes longer than most starches at almost 3 hours. I find this to

be true due to tests with my own stomach.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Igo <jimi761@...> wrote:

>

> Many researchers have found that humans digest meat faster than starchy

> potatoes & grains, as well. Hence the theory of food combining makes sense

> for both humans & animals in that regard.

>

>

> Just, Jim

>

[Guest guest]

It depends on your average intestinal transit time. If you tend more

towards loose stools, it'd be more towards 8 hours for the food to reach

your colon (and then it'll take a few hours to pass though the colon before

it becomes stool) but if you tend more towards constipation, it'd be more

towards 18 hours (once again, it'll take a while to pass through the colon

to become stool).

Anything less than 12 hours _total_ transit (from mouth to stool) is

typically someone who has regular diarrhea and doesn't give adequate time in

the colon for beneficial bacteria to grow, anything more than 24 tends to be

associated with regular constipation and also sabotages ideal bacteria

growth. What is ideal? I find I feel best at about 18 hours.

Some things that can help you identify your transit time (sorry this may be

a little gross to some):

Lighter stools than usual after extremely fatty meals

Vegetable skins (peas and corn are notorious for this)

Seeds (from fruits like strawberries and other berries)

Colors (typically on a high fat diet, most intensely colored fruits and

vegetables will alter stool color)

You might even be able to see layers in your stool, which could indicate

multiple meals, or multiple components in a meal.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>

> If it is lower GI gas, there's a chance it is what you ate 8-18

> > hours ago that is causing the gas.

> >

>

> I guess the hard part is knowing whether it was more toward the 8 hour

> mark or the 18 hour mark when trying to backtrack to determine which

> meal is the problem when one gets lower gas (aka farts)

>

[Guest guest]

I meant to add, at an 18 hour average transit time, I tend to develop gas

and other colon-related food symptoms around 12-14 hours. Hope that helps!

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

>

> What is ideal? I find I feel best at about 18 hours.

On 5/14/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>>

>> If it is lower GI gas, there's a chance it is what you ate 8-18

>> > hours ago that is causing the gas.

>> >

>>

>> I guess the hard part is knowing whether it was more toward the 8 hour

>> mark or the 18 hour mark when trying to backtrack to determine which

>> meal is the problem when one gets lower gas (aka farts)

>>

>

[Guest guest]

Someone wrote that there were different ph's in different parts of the

stomach. How does hydrochloric acid affect those different areas? What

happens when we take hcl supplements?

On May 14, 2008, at 11:36 AM, Igo wrote:

> During a meal in which one eats to their capacity: Most

> people imagine that

> the stomach is a tub of both acid and food that mixes up and sits until

> digested. But in reality, it is more like a block of food that acid

> secreted from the top of the stomach is slowly mashed into the food

> and then

> washes away/squirts out whatever has liquified. When water or other low

> acidity fluids are consumed, it interferes with the washing effect of

> acid

> because it travels around the food along the same path as the acid

> does and

> counteracts some of the acid's progress.

>

> Fullness is triggered by the exit of acid into the duodenum which

> triggers

> CCK release. When people have low stomach acid, they don't register

> fullness. By consuming water before a meal, you wash the acid out of

> your

> stomach which results in the PH starting higher at the beginning of the

> meal, and therefore it takes longer to reach the level of acid

> necessary to

> trigger CCK release. In the instance of low stomach acid, consuming

> water

> before a meal may actually prevent you from feeling full for quite some

> time. While this may seem good at first, CCK is also responsible for

> triggering enzyme and bile secretion so slowing CCK from being

> released is

> likely to result in inadequate digestion.

>

> This of course is a bit different than snacking on small amounts of

> food,

> where the acid normally present in the stomach is typically enough to

> dissolve the food as long as the food particles are small. The most

> complete digestion is attained by consuming small meals, or consuming

> large

> meals over a long period of time. Which all goes in line with the

> problem

> that our society eats too fast and chews too little.

>

Parashis

artpages@...

portfolio pages:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11468108@N08/

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

I see, you're referring to the actual digestion of the starch, not the

starchy food. I'm referring to stomachs digestion of starchy foods. Starch

is digested in the mouth, stops being digested in the stomach (due to the

acid level inactivating amylase), and then starts being digested again in

the small intestine and is completely digested by the time it leaves the

small intestine. So I can see a 4 hour total time from chewing to leaving

the small intestine. The 40 minutes for potatoes is for the stomach time

only, which is only a portion of the 4 hours you're referring to.

Proteins are only digested in the stomach, so I can see what you mean about

the ptylin interfering. Incomplete protein digestion definitely an issue.

I would think potatoes, which leave the stomach faster, would be preferable

to grains for meals containing both starches and meat - as long as the meal

was served in courses where 40 minutes was given from the potato dish to the

meat dish.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Igo <jimi761@...> wrote:

>

> Lana,

>

> The research I am familiar with shows that extreme starches like potatoes

> take up to four hours to digest, whereas meat can be digested in much less

> than 3 hours. An enzyme named ptylin(needed to digest starch) is found in

> the saliva, the first digestive gland. When meat is eaten on top of

> starches, the ptylin interferes with the protein digesting enzymes found in

> the stomach. The inappropriate combination of starches on top of proteins

> can then lead to foul smelling intestinal gas otherwise known as

> purification. Pavlov pretty much proved this years ago. Not sure why it

> was not more widely accepted. It is my guess that the varied research on

> specific digestive times still has a fairly wide margin of standard

> deviation.

>

> Just, Jim

[Guest guest]

The PH will vary depending on what you have eaten and whether it is

currently in contact with the acid wash or not. The acid wash itself is

fairly consistent in terms of PH and the food waiting for digestion will be

the PH of the food itself, until it comes in contact with the acid wash and

slowly decreases in PH until it exits the stomach.

If you take HCl before a meal, you'll increase the acid of the acid pool

that lives in your stomach and that is very beneficial to small meals as

well as the beginning of a large meal. If you take HCl during a meal,

you'll have a pocket of acid in between the food that is waiting for the

acid wash and if you take it after a meal you'll acidify the top layer of

the food in your stomach. A much better choice, IMHO, is to consume salted

foods, providing Cl to the stomach throughout the meal so it can produce

it's own HCl more consistently.

The PH throughout the gastrointestinal tract also varies. Food exiting the

stomach is very acid, but once food enters the duodenum and CCK is

triggered, the pancreas neutralizes the acid with bicarbonate, making an

alkaline solution which supports enzymatic activity. (In some people the

pancreas doesn't neutralize the food correctly, and this results in

incomplete enzymatic digestion, incomplete absorption and small bowel

bacterial overgrowth.) As different minerals are absorbed at different

points of the small intestine, the PH slowly gets more acid and once the

food reaches the colon, it is acidified further by colonic fermentation.

(In the event of the person who's pancreas isn't functioning properly, the

food that reaches the colon is already more acidic than appropriate, which

encourages acid-loving flora in the colon and kills off several beneficial

microbes that are not acid tolerant).

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Parashis <artpages@...> wrote:

>

> Someone wrote that there were different ph's in different parts of the

> stomach. How does hydrochloric acid affect those different areas? What

> happens when we take hcl supplements?

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, you know so much about this. Impressive, as Darth Vader would say.

> >>

> >> If it is lower GI gas, there's a chance it is what you ate 8-18

> >> > hours ago that is causing the gas.

> >> >

> >>

> >> I guess the hard part is knowing whether it was more toward the 8

hour

> >> mark or the 18 hour mark when trying to backtrack to determine which

> >> meal is the problem when one gets lower gas (aka farts)

> >>

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 5/14/08, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> The PH will vary depending on what you have eaten and whether it is

> currently in contact with the acid wash or not.

Not that this affects your point at all but for future reference it's

pH, not PH.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks Chris! I'll try to remember for the future.

-Lana

Not that this affects your point at all but for future reference it's

> pH, not PH.

>

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

It's not my fault, it's my stomachs!! Seriously though, I've found this

data to be so vital to digestive health that I'm honestly floored we don't

learn it when we're in school.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>

> Wow, you know so much about this. Impressive, as Darth Vader would say.

>

[Guest guest]

On 5/15/08, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Thanks Chris! I'll try to remember for the future.

No prob The H is an abbreviation for [H+], which means the

concentration of hydrogen ion, and the lower-case p means " the

negative logarithm of. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

<<Is gas presence always a bad thing? Couldn't be someone just swallowed

air while they were eating or is that mythology?>>

As any small boy will eagerly show you, if you swallow air, you can make

it re-emerge as a belch. Producing excess gases of various sorts is part

of the digestive process. That's why we belch, burp or fart.

regards from edella

[Guest guest]

Hi - I'm trying to follow this threat but have to admit it's way out

of my league! Is there some takeaway for the layman/woman as far as

food combining? I read a book about it years ago but never knew if the

theories were very important to practice, never read about it

elsewhere so never applied it. I know about not drinking very much

water around mealtime (though I drink mostly fermented beverages now

anyway) but is raw milk ok in moderation with meals? I imagine

fermented beverages would be ok? Would those liquids (any liquids)

interfere with digestion, or does it depend on what is being consumed?

From what I remember, fruits should be consumed alone (and best in the

morning), vegetables can be combined with pretty much anything, and

meats and dairy should be eaten separately from each other and from

other foods except for veggies. Is this too simplistic?

Ignore my email if I'm veering off-topic or if it would require too

much explanation - maybe a pointer to where to learn more

Thank you!

Carolee

>

> The PH will vary depending on what you have eaten and whether it is

> currently in contact with the acid wash or not.

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> I recently went to a lecture by a guy who

> was an expert on sodium and water balance, and he said that there is a

> finite gastric emptying speed for water and that for this reason

> heavily sweating athletes cannot keep up with sweat loss no matter how

> much they drink. If you drink beyond the emptying capacity you just

> get bloated I guess.

On hot, humid days, I resemble that remark.

-

[Guest guest]

If you're going to drink something during meals, it is best you drink

something acid (sour) and in small sips. Raw milk would work, but kefir or

yogurt would probably be a better choice for dairy based drinks. If you

don't have your ferments with you, water with lemon juice (no sugar) is a

decent choice - and one of the reasons water in restaurants is traditionally

served with a lemon wedge. The only exception I make to the preferably acid

thing is broth, but that is because broth is high in glycine which aids

digestion of proteins.

In terms of digestion time (in the stomach): Fruits are best consumed for a

first course, followed by vegetables which can be consumed at the second

course with fish, then grains and legumes which can be consumed at the third

course with poultry, then beef or pork for the fourth course, along with

nuts and seeds.

Dairy, depending on the degree of fermentation, could be in the first course

(milk - consumed instead of or before the fruit due to it's liquidity),

second course (larger amounts of yogurt/kefir, some soft cheeses like

cottage cheese), third course (the rest of the soft cheese and some hard

cheese) or fourth course (very hard cheeses).

The reason for separating dairy and meat, AFAIK, is that the calcium in

dairy can over-alkalize the stomach, making it difficult for the stomach to

absorb iron, and other acid-dependent minerals (like manganese). I don't

think this issue is as bad with small amounts of cheese accompanying meat as

it is with milk doing so.

Ideally starches and meats shouldn't be combined, however, out of all the

things listed above - my stomach doesn't have as much of an issue with this

- then again, I don't eat as much meat as some people on this list do so

that may have something to do with it and I tend to eat things one at a time

(so usually my starches are consumed before I start on the meat - which

depending on starch and meat, leaves quite a bit of time for the meat to

digest after the starch has left the stomach)

HTH!

-Lana

On 5/17/08, ccbmamma <caroleebol@...> wrote:

>

> Hi - I'm trying to follow this threat but have to admit it's way out

> of my league! Is there some takeaway for the layman/woman as far as

> food combining? I read a book about it years ago but never knew if the

> theories were very important to practice, never read about it

> elsewhere so never applied it. I know about not drinking very much

> water around mealtime (though I drink mostly fermented beverages now

> anyway) but is raw milk ok in moderation with meals? I imagine

> fermented beverages would be ok? Would those liquids (any liquids)

> interfere with digestion, or does it depend on what is being consumed?

> From what I remember, fruits should be consumed alone (and best in the

> morning), vegetables can be combined with pretty much anything, and

> meats and dairy should be eaten separately from each other and from

> other foods except for veggies. Is this too simplistic?

>

> Ignore my email if I'm veering off-topic or if it would require too

> much explanation - maybe a pointer to where to learn more

>

> Thank you!

> Carolee

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> The reason for separating dairy and meat, AFAIK, is that the calcium in

> dairy can over-alkalize the stomach, making it difficult for the stomach to

> absorb iron, and other acid-dependent minerals (like manganese). I don't

> think this issue is as bad with small amounts of cheese accompanying meat as

> it is with milk doing so.

I don't know how this idea gets perpetuated, but calcium can't

neutralize acid. Acid comes from hydrogen ions, which are positively

charged, and calcium is positively charged. Only something negatively

charged can neutralize something positively charged. So phosphate,

for example, could neutralize acid, which is why phosphate is used as

a buffer for strong acids in the urine, but calcium certainly cannot.

In fact, calcium stimulates gastric acid secretion. This is because

there are calcium-dependent proton pumps in the stomach. In fact, the

way that protein stimulates gastric acid secretion is by

allosterically activating these calcium-dependent pumps, so they can

only have an effect in the presence of a sufficient amount of calcium.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Interesting! So are you saying the phosphate in the milk is the problem (in

terms of lowering stomach acid) with the dairy/meat combining, not the

calcium?

Thanks!

-Lana

I don't know how this idea gets perpetuated, but calcium can't

> neutralize acid. Acid comes from hydrogen ions, which are positively

> charged, and calcium is positively charged. Only something negatively

> charged can neutralize something positively charged. So phosphate,

> for example, could neutralize acid, which is why phosphate is used as

> a buffer for strong acids in the urine, but calcium certainly cannot.

>

> In fact, calcium stimulates gastric acid secretion. This is because

> there are calcium-dependent proton pumps in the stomach. In fact, the

> way that protein stimulates gastric acid secretion is by

> allosterically activating these calcium-dependent pumps, so they can

> only have an effect in the presence of a sufficient amount of calcium.

>

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana,

> Interesting! So are you saying the phosphate in the milk is the problem (in

> terms of lowering stomach acid) with the dairy/meat combining, not the

> calcium?

No I was just making the point that calcium can't under any

circumstance neutralize acid, and that anything with calcium should

stimulate acid. If we can conclude anything from this, I would think

it would be that any putative negative effect of milk on meat

digestion has nothing to do with gastric acid secretion. Perhaps it

has to do with the fact that calcium is a very slow-digesting protein,

or that large fat globules buffer proteins from digestive enzymes or

acidity like they buffer microbes from the same.

Personally, I have no problem digesting meat and milk together. I

often have a cheeseburger with a couple glasses of milk.

I used to have major problems mixing meat and potatoes, which

frequently gave me diarrhea. I no longer have this problem in the

least, and can easily mix several glasses of milk, a slice of cheese,

ground beef, and potatoes in the same meal. Part of this might be

that my digestion is better, but I think it is because I peel my

potatoes and no longer kefir my milk (or ferment it at all). I think

part of my problem before was that my long-fermented kefir had

histamine and my potato peels had solanine, both of which are

diarrhea-causing chemicals when consumed orally.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I think you mean " casein " is a slow-digesting protein...

I like your ideas on the subject. When I get time I'll have to look around

to see if there's anything definitive on the milk/meat combining.

I too can " mix several glasses of milk, a slice of cheese, ground beef, and

potatoes in the same meal " as long as I eat them in the proper order for

digestion. (Milk first, so it is gone by the time I'm eating the beef - I

eat the potatoes and cheese while waiting for the milk to digest.)

-Lana

> No I was just making the point that calcium can't under any

> circumstance neutralize acid, and that anything with calcium should

> stimulate acid. If we can conclude anything from this, I would think

> it would be that any putative negative effect of milk on meat

> digestion has nothing to do with gastric acid secretion. Perhaps it

> has to do with the fact that calcium is a very slow-digesting protein,

> or that large fat globules buffer proteins from digestive enzymes or

> acidity like they buffer microbes from the same.

>

> Personally, I have no problem digesting meat and milk together. I

> often have a cheeseburger with a couple glasses of milk.

>

> I used to have major problems mixing meat and potatoes, which

> frequently gave me diarrhea. I no longer have this problem in the

> least, and can easily mix several glasses of milk, a slice of cheese,

> ground beef, and potatoes in the same meal. Part of this might be

> that my digestion is better, but I think it is because I peel my

> potatoes and no longer kefir my milk (or ferment it at all). I think

> part of my problem before was that my long-fermented kefir had

> histamine and my potato peels had solanine, both of which are

> diarrhea-causing chemicals when consumed orally.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Lana-

> Proteins are only digested in the stomach

Actually, that's not quite true. Pepsinogen begins the process of

protein digestion in the stomach, but the process continues in the

small intestine. Trypsin, which is a key protein-digesting enzyme, is

secreted in the duodenum, for example. IIRC, its optimum pH is around

8, so its effectiveness relies on the adequate secretion of bicarbonate.

-

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> I think you mean " casein " is a slow-digesting protein...

Hopefully that is what I meant because that sure makes a lot more sense

> I like your ideas on the subject. When I get time I'll have to look around

> to see if there's anything definitive on the milk/meat combining.

Cool.

> I too can " mix several glasses of milk, a slice of cheese, ground beef, and

> potatoes in the same meal " as long as I eat them in the proper order for

> digestion. (Milk first, so it is gone by the time I'm eating the beef - I

> eat the potatoes and cheese while waiting for the milk to digest.)

Well I said mix. So that means the cheese goes on the burger, the

potatoes alternate, and the sips of milk go between bites.

Chris