Re: Re: RELIGION POLITICS: Ron

January 8, 2008

On 1/8/08, Tim <friarslantern@...> wrote:

> Does anyone know why he opposed gay adoption in D.C.?

He didn't.

Scan down to where you see green and pink in this post:

http://tinyurl.com/38a8rb

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:SpTjZCwUBl4J:www.ronpaulforums.com/showthre\

ad.php%3Ft%3D28979+ron+paul+gay+adoption+washington+dc & hl=en & ct=clnk & cd=4 & gl=us & \

ie=UTF-8

Chris

January 8, 2008

On 1/8/08, Patty <mellowsong@...> wrote:

> I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

> can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up because I

was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

political issues, but, nevertheless:

The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is far

below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal twins,

thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

same article as 1).

The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is 100%,

for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a fundamental

difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

predispositioning of sexual orientation.

Chris

=============

1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public interest

is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does

in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of

a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

predeterminations. "

[snip]

Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, reported

a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

second study received almost no media attention.

==========

2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

(42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

===========

January 8, 2008

> There are several errors in your post.

>

> First I am not . He is taller than I am. This can be documented.

>

> Second I did not ³equate² homsexuality with race. I was making an analogy,

> which quite obviously you do not understand.

>

> Third homosexuality isn¹t, in the sense you mean, a Œbehavior¹, in that

> being homosexual is not a choice. Given the attitude of folks like you, who

> would CHOOSE to be a homosexual. It is a state of being.

>

>> >

>> > I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

>> > can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>> >

>>> >>

>>> >> Forget religion then - if you say that gay marriage, or homosexuality

>> > (which seems to be the implication) is wrong, but you would not

>> > legislate against it, that is still a bigoted position. Bigotry does

>> > not require legislation. If I say that I believe that black people are

>> > inferior, for instance, but feel that they should be equal under the

>> > law, I am still a bigot.

>> >

January 8, 2008

>> >

>> > On 1/8/08, Patty <mellowsong@... <mailto:mellowsong%40gmail.com> >

>> > wrote:

>>> >> I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

>>> >> can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>> >

>> > This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up because I

>> > was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

>> > political issues, but, nevertheless:

>

> Ok let¹s be clear that you are talking specifically on the issue of whether

> homosexuality is a behavior, and consequently cannot be compared with race, as

> a quality in people that can be discriminated against.

>

>> >

>> > The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is far

>> > below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

>> > note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal twins,

>> > thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

>> > that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

>> > genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

>> > hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

>> > are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

>> > twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

>

> Says absolutely nothing about whether it is a Œbehavior¹ rather than a quality

> of a person that can be freely chosen.

>> >

>> > This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

>> > some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

>

> Absolute logical bullshit. In no way does it do this.

>

> there¹s really no need to go on. Your views/ based on religious morality are

> quite clear, though you try to obfuscate them with Œscience¹. BAD science.

>> >

>> > The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

>> > personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

>> > agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

>> > same article as 1).

>> >

>> > The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is 100%,

>> > for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a fundamental

>> > difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

>> > predispositioning of sexual orientation.

>> >

>> > Chris

>> >

>> > =============

>> > 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

>> >

>> > Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

>> > offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public interest

>> > is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does

>> > in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

>> > male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of

>> > a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

>> > percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

>> > orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

>> > that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

>> > predeterminations. "

>> >

>> > [snip]

>> >

>> > Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

>> > studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

>> > reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, reported

>> > a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

>> > homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

>> > second study received almost no media attention.

>> > ==========

>> >

>> > 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

>> > General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

>> > (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

>> > Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

>> > ===========

>> >

January 8, 2008

> .... I say all this b/c when people say that race and homosexuality

>> > can be equated, they are implying the person is born that way.

>

> No one here has said that ³race and homosexuality can be equated². I imagine

> that you are referring to me, and I¹d appreciate it if you not totally distort

> what I¹ve said.

>

> Whether someone is born a homosexual, whether this is determined either at

> birth or later on, or whether it changes during a person¹s lifetime is really

> irrelevant.

>

>> >God

>> > bent over backwards to give us free will.

>

> That¹s a simply hilariious image....

>

>> > When I study the anatomy of a penis and a vagina, I mean

>> > all the nuances, I think " Come on these two were made for each other! "

>

> This is compelling.

>

>> > It's not bigotry that makes me think that. I would be the first person

>> > to raise hell over someone choosing a path and getting judged and

>> > treated in an ostracized fashion by self-righteous people but I

>> > wouldn't march in a parade for them either b/c I have my beliefs that

>> > I have to be true to.

>

> So do many people...including some pretty reprehensible ones.

>

>> > As everyone has their beliefs. All a person can

>> > do is honestly pay attention to what is working or not working on

>> > their path. Sometimes when you have to defend something so much, you

>> > don't pay attention to whether it's even working for you anymore.

>> >

>>>> >>> I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

>>>> >>> can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>>> >>

>>> >> This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up because I

>>> >> was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

>>> >> political issues, but, nevertheless:

>>> >>

>>> >> The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is far

>>> >> below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

>>> >> note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal twins,

>>> >> thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

>>> >> that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

>>> >> genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

>>> >> hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

>>> >> are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

>>> >> twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

>>> >>

>>> >> This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

>>> >> some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

>>> >>

>>> >> The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

>>> >> personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

>>> >> agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

>>> >> same article as 1).

>>> >>

>>> >> The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is 100%,

>>> >> for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a fundamental

>>> >> difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

>>> >> predispositioning of sexual orientation.

>>> >>

>>> >> Chris

>>> >>

>>> >> =============

>>> >> 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

>>> >>

>>> >> Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

>>> >> offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public interest

>>> >> is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does

>>> >> in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

>>> >> male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of

>>> >> a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

>>> >> percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

>>> >> orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

>>> >> that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

>>> >> predeterminations. "

>>> >>

>>> >> [snip]

>>> >>

>>> >> Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

>>> >> studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

>>> >> reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, reported

>>> >> a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

>>> >> homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

>>> >> second study received almost no media attention.

>>> >> ==========

>>> >>

>>> >> 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

>>> >> General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

>>> >> (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

>>> >> Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

>>> >> ===========

>>> >>

January 9, 2008

There's an element of choice in religion, too, but we still protect

it as a class. A lot more people change their religion than change

their sexual orientation.

So if religion's a choice, and we don't protect things that are a

choice, why are we protecting religion?

On Jan 8, 2008, at 10:13 PM, Masterjohn wrote:

> On 1/8/08, Patty <mellowsong@...> wrote:

> > I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

> > can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>

> This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up because I

> was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

> political issues, but, nevertheless:

>

> The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is far

> below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

> note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal twins,

> thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

> that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

> genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

> hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

> are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

> twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

>

> This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

> some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

>

> The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

> personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

> agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

> same article as 1).

>

> The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is 100%,

> for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a fundamental

> difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

> predispositioning of sexual orientation.

>

> Chris

>

> =============

> 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

>

> Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

> offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public interest

> is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does

> in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

> male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of

> a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

> percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

> orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

> that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

> predeterminations. "

>

> [snip]

>

> Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

> studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

> reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, reported

> a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

> homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

> second study received almost no media attention.

> ==========

>

> 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

> General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

> (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

> Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

> ===========

>

January 9, 2008

Chris-

> > Does anyone know why he opposed gay adoption in D.C.?

>

> He didn't.

The argument in that post seems rather disingenuous, frankly.

>> It is clear the Largent Amendment is not a ban on gay adoption. Gay

>> individuals would still be free to adopt, and even have thier

>> adoption supported by funds from H.R.2587. It doesn't prevent joint

>> adoption by gay couples. But if those couples are unrelated, funds

>> from H.R.2587 can't be used to pay tax credits for costs incurred

>> by the joint adoption. The Largent amendment only prevents couples

>> unrelated by blood or marriage, gay or straight, from using these

>> funds for joint adoptions.

>>

>> There are many reasons a legislator would have for supporting this

>> amendment besides " banning gay adoption " . The most obvious: The

>> alamingly high number children who must face the break-up of thier

>> parents, family instability, and custody battles. Seems plenty of

>> reason not to use these funds to encourage joint adoptions by

>> unmarried couples. Even married couples divorce, but marraige or

>> blood relations are at least a concrete and visable, if unfair and

>> arbitrary, indicator of a couple's increased chances to provide a

>> stable long-term family for a child that can be seen by those who

>> must make these decisions.

>>

>> It seems unfair to unrelated couples who are legally prevented from

>> marrying to be denied equal access to these funds. But to call a

>> vote for the Largent Amendment " Voting Yes to Ban Gay Adoptions in

>> DC " is a gross misrepresentation the range of reasons to support

>> it, and the actual results it would have.

Straight marriages break up at a ferocious rate, so saying that

marital stability is a reason to require either a blood relationship

or a marriage is rather silly. And while it might sound equitable

that unmarried straight couples don't qualify either, of course they

have the option of getting married, while gay couples don't. So in

practice, the legislation is definitely biased against gay adoption.

At any rate, while it's not really accurate to call this bill a _ban_

on gay marriage (though perhaps it is one in practice, as adoptions by

single people generally aren't favored) this is yet another case in

which we're left trying to deduce Ron 's real views from

circumstantial evidence, and frankly, I find that very, very

unappealing in a candidate.

-

January 9, 2008

Patty-

> I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

> can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

It seems pretty well established at this point that homosexuality is

caused by physical characteristics of the brain. IOW, you're born

that way... just like you're born with whatever ethnic ancestry you

have. As such they seem quite comparable.

-

January 9, 2008

> What a crock ...

>

> I live in sunny SF, and I know and have known lots of homosexuals, and this

> just ain¹t the rule. The most well adjusted person I¹ve known in my life is a

> homosexual this guy didn¹t have a traumatic childhood, isn¹t troubled or

> neurotic he¹s just gay...in addition, I don¹t think that there is ANY

> science to back this up. Of course, I don¹t think that any of this has much

> value at all, except to contradict other anecdotal Œevidence¹...

>

> I¹m always amused by people who talk about their own experiences to bolster

> their own prejudices I¹ve heard it from people talking about blacks,

> homeless people (of course, in San Francisco, they are all rich, you know).

>

>> >

>> > Not to mention the psychological effects of having someone as

>> > emotionally close as a twin " come out " or however they experienced

>> > it - that would seem to lead to some experimentation of the sibling

>> > if they are openminded.

>> >

>> > I'll let everyone attack me instead of you - here it comes - I went

>> > to a Social Work Master's program. I found out there that the

>> > incidence of homosexuality in social work higher education is higher

>> > than everything but maybe broadway dancing. Almost every young

>> > person I talked with about it had been sexually abused as a child.

>> > So I tend to believe that there is a strong nurture aspect. None of

>> > them would ever admit it, tho, because it wasn't PC. I have gay

>> > friends, and still I know almost none who were't abused as children.

>> > Not that everyone who is gay had been molested, but that's my

>> > experience.

>> >

>>>> >>> I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way

>> > you

>>>> >>> can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>>> >>

>>> >> This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up

>> > because I

>>> >> was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

>>> >> political issues, but, nevertheless:

>>> >>

>>> >> The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is

>> > far

>>> >> below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

>>> >> note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal

>> > twins,

>>> >> thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

>>> >> that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

>>> >> genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

>>> >> hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

>>> >> are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

>>> >> twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

>>> >>

>>> >> This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

>>> >> some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

>>> >>

>>> >> The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

>>> >> personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

>>> >> agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

>>> >> same article as 1).

>>> >>

>>> >> The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is

>> > 100%,

>>> >> for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a

>> > fundamental

>>> >> difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

>>> >> predispositioning of sexual orientation.

>>> >>

>>> >> Chris

>>> >>

>>> >> =============

>>> >> 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

>>> >>

>>> >> Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

>>> >> offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public

>> > interest

>>> >> is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies

>> > does

>>> >> in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

>>> >> male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin

>> > of

>>> >> a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

>>> >> percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

>>> >> orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

>>> >> that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

>>> >> predeterminations. "

>>> >>

>>> >> [snip]

>>> >>

>>> >> Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

>>> >> studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

>>> >> reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study,

>> > reported

>>> >> a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

>>> >> homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

>>> >> second study received almost no media attention.

>>> >> ==========

>>> >>

>>> >> 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

>>> >> General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

>>> >> (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

>>> >> Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

>>> >> ===========

>>> >>

>> >

January 9, 2008