Re: RELIGION POLITICS: Ron

[Guest guest]

On 1/8/08, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

> If you're against gay marriage within the context of your religious belief,

> then obviously you believe somehow that gay marriage is 'contrary to the

> laws of God'. I'm sure you'll find a way to nuance this into

> meaninglessness...but I this to me is the essence of what you said. this is

> pretty damn close to, 'gay marriage is immoral'. That to me is using god to

> excuse a fundamental bigotry.

I really have no interest in discussing religion with you at all.

However, I do not endorse the state enforcing anyone's religious

beliefs, and I think, like Ron suggested, that the state should

get completely out of the business of providing marriage licenses

altogether.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Forget religion then - if you say that gay marriage, or homosexuality (which

seems to be the implication) is wrong, but you would not legislate against it,

that is still a bigoted position. Bigotry does not require legislation. If I say

that I believe that black people are inferior, for instance, but feel that they

should be equal under the law, I am still a bigot.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Masterjohn " <chrismasterjohn@...>

> On 1/8/08, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> > If you're against gay marriage within the context of your religious belief,

> > then obviously you believe somehow that gay marriage is 'contrary to the

> > laws of God'. I'm sure you'll find a way to nuance this into

> > meaninglessness...but I this to me is the essence of what you said. this is

> > pretty damn close to, 'gay marriage is immoral'. That to me is using god to

> > excuse a fundamental bigotry.

>

> I really have no interest in discussing religion with you at all.

> However, I do not endorse the state enforcing anyone's religious

> beliefs, and I think, like Ron suggested, that the state should

> get completely out of the business of providing marriage licenses

> altogether.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

On 1/8/08, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

> Forget religion then - if you say that gay marriage, or homosexuality (which

> seems to be the implication) is wrong, but you would not legislate against

> it, that is still a bigoted position. Bigotry does not require legislation.

> If I say that I believe that black people are inferior, for instance, but

> feel that they should be equal under the law, I am still a bigot.

I didn't say anything about homosexuals being inferior or wrong, so I

don't see what your point is. Also, you know next to nothing about my

religious views, so the idea that you would try to psychoanalyze me

and cateogorize them without a very large amount of discussion first

is just silly. All you are producing is a ridiculous caricature of my

religious views.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Psychoanalyze - that's absurd. I'm basing my comments on what you yourself said,

which implies (if you believe that God has any say in the matter) that

homosexuality is wrong. You can declare that your view is more nuanced than that

- but I think that my reductionism is appropriate.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Masterjohn " <chrismasterjohn@...>

> On 1/8/08, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> > Forget religion then - if you say that gay marriage, or homosexuality (which

> > seems to be the implication) is wrong, but you would not legislate against

> > it, that is still a bigoted position. Bigotry does not require legislation.

> > If I say that I believe that black people are inferior, for instance, but

> > feel that they should be equal under the law, I am still a bigot.

>

> I didn't say anything about homosexuals being inferior or wrong, so I

> don't see what your point is. Also, you know next to nothing about my

> religious views, so the idea that you would try to psychoanalyze me

> and cateogorize them without a very large amount of discussion first

> is just silly. All you are producing is a ridiculous caricature of my

> religious views.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

> but I think that my reductionism is appropriate.

I thought your reductionism was hard to follow. It was as if you were

so focused on Chris' belief on marriage that you couldn't hear the

discussion about separation of church and state.

said he agreed with that marriage was a religious, not a

civil matter, thus not a matter for the state to be in.

I was just reading an article by Catholic priest Greeley who

also writes about " keeping your politics away from my God. " Interesting.

Connie

[Guest guest]

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...>

> > but I think that my reductionism is appropriate.

>

> I thought your reductionism was hard to follow. It was as if you were

> so focused on Chris' belief on marriage that you couldn't hear the

> discussion about separation of church and state.

The separation of church and state is irrelevant to what I'm saying, and I

stated that rather explicitly.

>

> said he agreed with that marriage was a religious, not a

> civil matter, thus not a matter for the state to be in.

? So?

If you are religious, and believe that god is fundamental to what is real and

what is defined as right and wrong, and you believe that religiously, gay

marriage is wrong, this has implications about what you believe. You can't just

pass it all off on God, and say, well, don't blame me for what HE says....

>

> I was just reading an article by Catholic priest Greeley who

> also writes about " keeping your politics away from my God. " Interesting.

>

> Connie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> The separation of church and state is irrelevant to what I'm saying,

and I stated that rather explicitly.

Oh. I thought the discussion was about legislation and the religious

aspect of marriage. So a notion of separating legislation and religion

seemed relevant to me.

Connie

[Guest guest]

On 1/8/08, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

> If you are religious, and believe that god is fundamental to what is real

> and what is defined as right and wrong, and you believe that religiously,

> gay marriage is wrong, this has implications about what you believe. You

> can't just pass it all off on God, and say, well, don't blame me for what HE

> says....

It is quite pointless to have this discussion when we have not

established what " marriage " is. The purpose of marriage as a

Christian institution has very little to do with the purpose of

marriage as a sociological, contractual, or statist institution, and

we have absolutely no common understanding upon which to base a

discussion of what purpose it fills within the Church, and I have no

interest in discussing it with you. Why you are so interested in

whether I am, deep down inside, a bigot, is beyond me, as if it were

somehow your mission in life to find every bigot and call her or him

on it. In any case, from a contractual point of view, I think it is

quite an injustice for the state to interfere with voluntary

association and contract.

Chris

[Guest guest]

'Deep down inside' - no, we're not going that far. I'm just saying that by

definition, if you believe that certain fundamental privileges based on race,

sexual preference, sex are wrong (i.e. not allowed by God), it is

bigoted.Whether these are technical marriages, accomplished only using certain

rituals, or in a baseball park presided over by the commissioner of baseball, I

don't much care. I think that to declare that this is not something that you

believe 'deep down inside', but god does, and prescribes certain areas in which

this prejudice must be enacted, is silly.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Masterjohn " <chrismasterjohn@...>

> On 1/8/08, implode7@... <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> > If you are religious, and believe that god is fundamental to what is real

> > and what is defined as right and wrong, and you believe that religiously,

> > gay marriage is wrong, this has implications about what you believe. You

> > can't just pass it all off on God, and say, well, don't blame me for what HE

> > says....

>

> It is quite pointless to have this discussion when we have not

> established what " marriage " is. The purpose of marriage as a

> Christian institution has very little to do with the purpose of

> marriage as a sociological, contractual, or statist institution, and

> we have absolutely no common understanding upon which to base a

> discussion of what purpose it fills within the Church, and I have no

> interest in discussing it with you. Why you are so interested in

> whether I am, deep down inside, a bigot, is beyond me, as if it were

> somehow your mission in life to find every bigot and call her or him

> on it. In any case, from a contractual point of view, I think it is

> quite an injustice for the state to interfere with voluntary

> association and contract.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Sooooo..... does anyone know.... since Ron is opposed to the

federal government dictating whether states accept or reject gay

marriage (because of states' rights), what he'd say about states that

might want to prohibit inter-racial marriages? Or would he say that

that is unconstitutional?

Does/would Ron support amending the constitution to absolutely

protect women (ie the E.R.A.) and gays vis a vis voting, employment,

and contracts (including [civil] marriage)???

Does anyone know why he opposed gay adoption in D.C.?

Castaway

[Guest guest]

I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>

>

> Forget religion then - if you say that gay marriage, or homosexuality

(which seems to be the implication) is wrong, but you would not

legislate against it, that is still a bigoted position. Bigotry does

not require legislation. If I say that I believe that black people are

inferior, for instance, but feel that they should be equal under the

law, I am still a bigot.

[Guest guest]

The first thing I want to say is Ron is a good candidate for many

reasons. He gets my vote for saying on national television that

terrorists are motivated by our horrific foreign policies rather than

their mere anger directed at our western ways. I never dreamt I would

hear a politician say something like that in light of the jingoism

surrounding 911. I was ready for him to get tasered when he said that

but the audience took it well.People are ready for change and this

man, who is not known for going back and forth on what he says, has

solid ideas from a solid foundation (the constitution). I think what

he says about marriage is fine for now. Didn't Taft say true

compromise is when no one is fully happy? I'm not sure. Divisive

issues like homosexuality are not helping this country right now and

neither side is fully happy so let's focus on our universal problems

which are: our middle class is dwindling, our health care system is

broken, our transportation system is broken, the environment is

broken, our politicians are corrupt, our public schools produce mass

murderers, other countries hate us (including European ones)and I

still can't buy Raw milk for human consumption legally in FL. What the

heck!

This is how I look at homosexuality and people can take it for what's

worth: I was diagnosed with panic disorder when I was 19 and put on

medication with no other options offered to me. As a matter of fact, I

was talked out of other options by the drug dealers (I mean

psychiatrists) I was told " this is just how you were born " Then there

was the other side of the spectrum which was equally frustrating where

people were telling me I could change but not offering any workable

advice. It was the stigma of the drugs circa 1992 that perpetuated

people telling me that. It's different now.

Fast forward literally ten years and, putting it simply, I met a

chiropractor who told me this was b.s. and I came across a Nourishing

Traditions book left for someone else at the front desk at the gym. I

ate healthy and my panic attacks went away eventually! But I was stuck

on the stupid drugs I was given for over a decade. I am still, five

years later, dealing with the repercussions of getting off those

drugs. I say all this b/c when people say that race and homosexuality

can be equated, they are implying the person is born that way. God

bent over backwards to give us free will. Of course that would include

homosexuality and anxiety. There are many reasons I had anxiety:

physically what I was putting in my body, and one could argue genetics

since it ran in my family, environmental since I was raised in

dysfunction as most people are. It was a combo of all of these. Did I

feel I was in a closet of sorts? Of course. I literally got fired from

a job b/c my " christian " boss told me I should have told him I was on

medication. I was denied health insurance. I was a pariah. Most of my

friends did not know. I was ashamed. My family pretended I didn't

have a problem and not once in ten years did one family member say " So

how are your panic attacks? " . Did I deserve that? Hell no BUT I wasn't

born that way either. That's where the doctor was wrong. It added up

to feeling that way at times but in the end I persevered toward what I

believed was a balanced place to be rather than proclaiming a new

lifestyle. But I was always worthy of love, acceptance and the right

not to be ostracized for something I felt I couldn't help.

It's not about judging anyone. We are all good and bad. Everyone is

half and half,like the black and white ox (for the Rumi fans). But

maybe we can go as far as looking at certain behaviors that have

drastically increased in the last 100 years in all areas of life like

panic attacks, ADD, suicides, debt and homosexuality and ask ourselves

to simply pay attention to patterns so that as many options as

possible are on the table.

Good things came out of and because of the panic disorder, like good

things come out of everything and those good things shouldn't be

denied. Some people spend their whole life on medication and have

loving relationships and are great people and those people should stay

on the medication if that makes them happy but they should be

presented with other choices too, and I am talking mainstream, not

something you should have to wait ten years to come across.

Who can say why a person is gay? But sometimes it is born from painful

circumstances like molestation and I know some people felt they had no

choice b/c their first sexual experience sexualized them in a certain

way. But if " you are born that way " is rammed down their throat every

second then their options are limited. What about people whose

hormones get affected by toxins? I was also mercury toxic and that

wreaked havoc on my hormones. I had no sex drive. Was I born that way

too? Don't forget how many entities out there make money when " you are

born that way "

Lastly to wrap this up, I feel my God is a permissive God or else he

wouldn't have us learn by experience. Our brains would have developed

to learn from reading or talking to one another but it's experience

that is the ultimate teacher. Who disagrees with that? He is a God who

respects the paths we choose. He won't fall apart if we are

imbalanced. The " wrong " path may produce a more loving person, but He

wants us to want more for ourselves then what's going on right now.

That's all. When I study the anatomy of a penis and a vagina, I mean

all the nuances, I think " Come on these two were made for each other! "

It's not bigotry that makes me think that. I would be the first person

to raise hell over someone choosing a path and getting judged and

treated in an ostracized fashion by self-righteous people but I

wouldn't march in a parade for them either b/c I have my beliefs that

I have to be true to. As everyone has their beliefs. All a person can

do is honestly pay attention to what is working or not working on

their path. Sometimes when you have to defend something so much, you

don't pay attention to whether it's even working for you anymore.

> > I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way you

> > can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>

> This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up because I

> was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

> political issues, but, nevertheless:

>

> The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is far

> below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

> note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal twins,

> thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

> that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

> genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

> hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

> are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

> twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

>

> This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

> some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

>

> The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

> personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

> agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

> same article as 1).

>

> The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is 100%,

> for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a fundamental

> difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

> predispositioning of sexual orientation.

>

> Chris

>

> =============

> 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

>

> Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

> offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public interest

> is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does

> in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

> male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of

> a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

> percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

> orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

> that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

> predeterminations. "

>

> [snip]

>

> Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

> studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

> reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, reported

> a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

> homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

> second study received almost no media attention.

> ==========

>

> 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

> General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

> (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

> Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

> ===========

>

[Guest guest]

Not to mention the psychological effects of having someone as

emotionally close as a twin " come out " or however they experienced

it - that would seem to lead to some experimentation of the sibling

if they are openminded.

I'll let everyone attack me instead of you - here it comes - I went

to a Social Work Master's program. I found out there that the

incidence of homosexuality in social work higher education is higher

than everything but maybe broadway dancing. Almost every young

person I talked with about it had been sexually abused as a child.

So I tend to believe that there is a strong nurture aspect. None of

them would ever admit it, tho, because it wasn't PC. I have gay

friends, and still I know almost none who were't abused as children.

Not that everyone who is gay had been molested, but that's my

experience.

> > I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's no way

you

> > can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

>

> This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up

because I

> was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

> political issues, but, nevertheless:

>

> The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical twins is

far

> below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the study. (See

> note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for fraternal

twins,

> thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite clear

> that there is some factor or factors in addition to the following:

> genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero, nutritional and

> hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life experience

> are probably the least likely to be a factor between two identicial

> twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

>

> This strongly argues for some element of choice, or spirituality, or

> some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

>

> The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than that for

> personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

> agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See note 2,

> same article as 1).

>

> The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black is

100%,

> for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a

fundamental

> difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

> predispositioning of sexual orientation.

>

> Chris

>

> =============

> 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

>

> Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

> offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public

interest

> is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies

does

> in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in

> male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin

of

> a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4

> percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual

> orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and

> that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

> predeterminations. "

>

> [snip]

>

> Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two

> studies conducted by J. . In 's first study, he

> reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study,

reported

> a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

> homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The

> second study received almost no media attention.

> ==========

>

> 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied:

> General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness

> (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%),

> Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

> ===========

>

[Guest guest]

> > No one here has said that ³race and homosexuality can be equated².

I imagine

> > that you are referring to me, and I¹d appreciate it if you not

totally distort

> > what I¹ve said.

I am addressing generalized arguments besides yours while sharing my

views on a subject we are discussing.Everything is not about you.

> > Whether someone is born a homosexual, whether this is determined

either at

> > birth or later on, or whether it changes during a person¹s

lifetime is really

> > irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. Did you even read my post at all? It's all

relevant b/c when I was looking to understand myself I had to look at

everything,and we all want to understand ourselves.

> >

> >> >God

> >> > bent over backwards to give us free will.

> >

> > That¹s a simply hilariious image....

Yes it is funny... that you would try to see that in there but it's

not hilarious b/c you're image in your head doesn't even make sense

directionally speaking.

> >

> >> > When I study the anatomy of a penis and a vagina, I mean

> >> > all the nuances, I think " Come on these two were made for each

other! "

> >

> > This is compelling.

Isn't it? It's the elephant in the room.

> >> > It's not bigotry that makes me think that. I would be the first

person

> >> > to raise hell over someone choosing a path and getting judged and

> >> > treated in an ostracized fashion by self-righteous people but I

> >> > wouldn't march in a parade for them either b/c I have my

beliefs that

> >> > I have to be true to.

> >

> > So do many people...including some pretty reprehensible ones.

Yes, or even dumb ones in addition to reprehensible. The word bigot

means a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own

opinions and prejudices. It's not always used in terms of race and you

have thrown this word around but in reading the posts, you are the

most intolerant person in the whole discussion b/c you are coming from

the same self-righteous place that you condemn in people who condemn

homosexuality. It's clear in your defensiveness and outrage and using

of the word bigot.

> >> >

> >>>> >>> I'm sure I'm going to get flak for this but , there's

no way you

> >>>> >>> can equate homosexuality...a behavior, with race!!!!

> >>> >>

> >>> >> This is a scientific issue, and I didn't want to bring it up

because I

> >>> >> was sure it would somehow get mired up with the religious and

> >>> >> political issues, but, nevertheless:

> >>> >>

> >>> >> The concordance rate for homosexuality between identical

twins is far

> >>> >> below 100%, varying between 20 adn 52% depending on the

study. (See

> >>> >> note 1.) Although this rate is higher than that for

fraternal twins,

> >>> >> thus clearly showing a genetic association, it makes it quite

clear

> >>> >> that there is some factor or factors in addition to the

following:

> >>> >> genes, nutritional and hormonal exposure in utero,

nutritional and

> >>> >> hormonal exposure during lactation. Differences in life

experience

> >>> >> are probably the least likely to be a factor between two

identicial

> >>> >> twins than any other two people, though they may play a role.

> >>> >>

> >>> >> This strongly argues for some element of choice, or

spirituality, or

> >>> >> some type of unknown component that is not determinative.

> >>> >>

> >>> >> The heritability estaimate for homosexuality is less than

that for

> >>> >> personality traits such as cognitive ability, extroversion,

> >>> >> agreeableness, openness, aggression and traditionalism (See

note 2,

> >>> >> same article as 1).

> >>> >>

> >>> >> The concordance rate between identicial twins for being black

is 100%,

> >>> >> for being female is 100%, and so on. There is obviously a

fundamental

> >>> >> difference between the hardwiring of race and sex and the partial

> >>> >> predispositioning of sexual orientation.

> >>> >>

> >>> >> Chris

> >>> >>

> >>> >> =============

> >>> >> 1. http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

> >>> >>

> >>> >> Dr. succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and

> >>> >> offers the following: " An area of particularly strong public

interest

> >>> >> is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin

studies does

> >>> >> in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a

role in

> >>> >> male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the

identical twin of

> >>> >> a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared

with 2-4

> >>> >> percent of males in the general population), indicating that

sexual

> >>> >> orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by

DNA, and

> >>> >> that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not

> >>> >> predeterminations. "

> >>> >>

> >>> >> [snip]

> >>> >>

> >>> >> Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was

the two

> >>> >> studies conducted by J. . In 's first

study, he

> >>> >> reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study,

reported

> >>> >> a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define

> >>> >> homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of

press. The

> >>> >> second study received almost no media attention.

> >>> >> ==========

> >>> >>

> >>> >> 2. The heritability estimates for personality traits were

varied:

> >>> >> General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%),

Agreeableness

> >>> >> (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness

(57%),

> >>> >> Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

> >>> >> ===========

> >>> >>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

People are bizarrely prone to fetishism, tho, especially things they

relate to sexually from childhood. I knew a man who had a fetish

about women with beards because his first encounter was with a rather

hairy young woman.

When my husband was a teen, a gay couple next door tried to convince

him that he was gay and should try it out with them. They said they

could tell because he " gave off signals " . If he had been less well-

adjusted, or hadn't had such an open relationship with his brothers,

they may have convinced him. As it was, it left him freaked out for

years! Say he had tried it, and it wasn't so bad, would he have

developed a fetish for men? Who knows?

>

> So, let me get this right. You're saying that homosexuality is like

a drug

> addiction, and in that sense it's a choice? So, that a straight

person,

> 'experiments' with homosexuality, and becomes addicted, even though

he/she

> is 'really' only attracted to the opposite sex?

>

> That's pretty funny.

>

>

> > what about addiction? Is that not a choice of sorts? Once one

is addicted

> > one must choose to stay addicted or remove it from one's life, I

understand

> > that same sex compulsion is or can become an addiction. I know I

have to be

> > pc and parrot the rules put out by those in charge to force us t

havce

> > certain beliefs.

> >

> > As far as chatting about politics, doesn't that polarize people?

Why not

> > just make up your mind and vote that way? Personally, I intend

to vote

> > for..... the person

> > I happen to agree with most, nevermind who. I will never ever

vote for The

> > Clinton and I wouldn't vote for O'Bama,

> >

> > Katy Brezger

> > http://to-reverse-diabetes.blogspot.com/

> > Be a Blessing, Find ways to be someone's Santa Claus all

year 'round. May

> > you be so richly blessed that you will bless others with what

overflows from

> > your cup.

> > " If people let government decide what foods they eat and what

medicines they

> > take, their bodies will soon be in a sorry state as are the souls

of those

> > who live under tyranny. "

> > ~ Jefferson~

> > Re: Re: RELIGION POLITICS: Ron

> >

> >

> > Gene-

> >

> >>> Third ­ homosexuality isn¹t, in the sense you mean, a Œbehavior¹,

> >> in that

> >>> being homosexual is not a choice. Given the attitude of folks

like

> >> you, who

> >>> would CHOOSE to be a homosexual. It is a state of being.

> >

> > This is what always boggles me. I can't imagine " choosing " to be

> > attracted to men. I find the idea of having sex with a man

viscerally

> > repulsive, and I have a visceral attraction to women. The idea

that

> > this orientation is a " choice " just seems bizarre. Granted,

there are

> > people with varying degrees of bisexuality in the world, but even

so,

> > do most people who oppose homosexuality as a " choice " feel they

could

> > actually be sexually attracted to the same sex if they so

chose??? I

> > seriously doubt it.

> >

> > -

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Sex addiction is one of the " official " addictions you can get treatment

for, so it makes sense that it could crop up in both gay and straight

forms.

Connie

> Actually some very honest now gay men have told me that, yes.

> Katy Brezger

[Guest guest]

Why on Earth are we discussing a so called Libertarian's decidings that go

beyond our property boundaries, into our door, onto our person and even into

bedrooms?

I watched Ron speak in NH last night on CSpan. He spoke three times as long

as all others I saw and twice as long as Obama. I switched to Jon

instead of wait for Hillary.

Another why on Earth is why is RP a U.S. Representative in the Federal

government if he hates the Federal government so? Yeah it's corrupt but so

aren't the corporations that hire the lobbyists. The state, free trade, gold and

The Constitution will cure it all while Texas executes retarded people and

Enron, yeah Enron. I wouldn't have been surprised last night if a horse ran out

with holster and gun for him to ride away on.

Liberty is keeping laws made from another's opinion off my choices as long as I

hurt no one. Life teaches you that like no ideology can. Can't say that the

majority in government and corporations haven't hurt many with just one of their

decidings. I chose Jon because he loves to find a hypocrite as much as I

do.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

High dopamine, low impulse control. Overspending, shopaholics are another result

of same.

Wanita

War. A better high than cocaine or whiskey.--- W. Bush

Sex addiction is one of the " official " addictions you can get treatment

for, so it makes sense that it could crop up in both gay and straight

forms.

Connie

> Actually some very honest now gay men have told me that, yes.

> Katy Brezger

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[Guest guest]

chrismasterjohn@...

wrote:

It is precisely because corporate welfare is so extensive that Enron

cozied up to Congress and the Clinton administration.

It's bipartisan like every mess. One does one thing, the other does another.

Bush Administration in it's beginning days had Ken Lay as a White House guest

before releasing energy policy.

Wanita

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