RE: Re: OT rescue dogs [organic beer and ale]

[Guest guest]

,

> I didn't add OT to the title because I believe keeping dogs is good

> for health

>

I seem to recall studies showing that people with pets live longer

than people without pets. I also recall reading studies about married

people living longer and happier as well. So I imagine if you have

both and good nutrition too then you are maximizing some non-nutritive

ways to increase longevity.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

[Guest guest]

> Maybe you should call the dog whisperer

LOL. Some holistic positive reinforcement folks don't like all the Dog

Whisperer's tactics. But I have a good local trainer.

> I didn't add OT to the title because I believe keeping dogs is good

> for health

Now why didn't I think of that?? I'd be a wreck without my dogs!

Suze

[Guest guest]

> Suze, just out of curiosity, do you know what tactics they don't like?

> I've only seen a few of the Dog Whisperer shows, but I thought what

> he did was amazing.

Hi ,

Here's an article that explains a few things. The hanging by the collar

method is incredibly cruel IMO and I've read of dogs being killed by this

method. One beagle I read about was swung around like this in front of the

owner and died of asphyxiation I think. Or they had to euthanize him because

he went into a coma or something. This wasn't Millan I'm referring to in the

beagle incident, but according to this article, as you will see, he employed

the same method of hanging with another dog.

'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful

Denver (September 6, 2006)

The training tactics featured on Cesar Millan's " Dog Whisperer " program

are inhumane, outdated and improper, according to a letter sent

yesterday to the National Geographic Channel by American Humane, the

oldest national organization protecting children and animals.

In the letter, American Humane, which works to raise public awareness

about responsible pet ownership and reduce the euthanasia of unwanted

pets, expressed dismay over the " numerous inhumane training techniques "

advocated by Cesar Millan on " Dog Whisperer. "

Several instances of cruel and dangerous treatment -- promoted by Millan

as acceptable training methods -- were documented by American Humane,

including one in which a dog was partially asphyxiated in an episode. In

this instance, the fractious dog was pinned to the ground by its neck

after first being " hung " by a collar incrementally tightened by Millan.

Millan's goal -- of subduing a fractious animal -- was accomplished by

partially cutting off the blood supply to its brain.

The letter requests that National Geographic stop airing the program

immediately and issue a statement explaining that the tactics featured

on the program are inhumane, and it encourages National Geographic to

begin developing programming that sets a positive example by featuring

proper, humane animal training. In its letter, American Humane said: " We

believe that achieving the goal of improving the way people interact

with their pets would be far more successful and beneficial for the

National Geographic Channel if it ceased sending the contradictory

message that violent treatment of animals is acceptable. "

" As a forerunner in the movement towards humane dog training, we find

the excessively rough handling of animals on the show and inhumane

training methods to be potentially harmful for the animals and the

people on the show, " said the letter's author, Bill Torgerson, DVM, MBA,

who is vice president of Animal Protection Services for American Humane.

" It also does a disservice to all the show's viewers by espousing an

inaccurate message about what constitutes effective training and

appropriate treatment of animals. "

Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German shepherd were

jeopardized in one episode by the use of an electric shock collar, which

forced the tormented dog to redirect its aggression at its owner, biting

her arm. " Furthermore, the television audience was never told that Mr.

Millan was attempting to modify the dog's behavior by causing pain with

the shock collar, " he said.

For more information about humane training techniques, please visit

click here.

<http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pa_care_issues_behav

ior>

About American Humane

Founded in 1877, the American Humane Association is the oldest national

organization dedicated to protecting both children and animals. Through

a network of child and animal protection agencies and individuals, the

American Humane Association develops policies, legislation, curricula

and training programs to protect children and animals from abuse,

neglect and exploitation. The nonprofit membership organization,

headquartered in Denver, raises awareness about The LinkR between animal

abuse and other forms of violence, as well as the benefits derived from

the human-animal bond. American Humane's regional office in Los Angeles

is the authority behind the " No Animals Were Harmed " R End Credit

Disclaimer on film and TV productions, and American Humane's office in

Washington is an advocate for child and animal protection at the federal

and state levels. American Humane is endorsed by the Better Business

Bureau's Wise Giving Alliance and has been awarded the Independent

Charities Seal of Excellence. Visit www.americanhumane.org

<http://www.americanhumane.org/ > to learn more.

Suze

[Guest guest]

There's always going to be this in-fighting between dog trainers on which

method is best. The positive enforcement trainers scream and carry on about

how cruel the trainers like Milan are, and a lot of the trainers like Milan

call the positive enforcement trainers " treat-slinging weenies. " There's so

much fighting about which method is better that no one seems to realize that

any one method will not be effective on all dogs. The trainer I work with

uses pinch collars and shock collars, WHEN NECESSARY, for tough dogs, but

when a softer dog comes in, he slings a lot of treats....Don't worry about

the politics - figure out what WORKS!

[Guest guest]

Oops, I should add: figure out what works...for your particular dog.

[Guest guest]

Don't worry about

> the politics - figure out what WORKS!

Well, I'm sure making a dog comatose by cutting off oxygen to its brain it

by swing it around on a choke collar WORKS to stop the dog from misbehaving.

But anyone with a modicum of compassion would not torture a dog in order to

train it.

I don't know much about Millan, but I adamantly denounce asphyxiating a dog

in order to teach it better behavior. It may WORK, but at what cost?

I know some trainers are averse to aversive training. I'm not a trainer and

I'm personally not averse to SOME degree of aversive training, but nothing

that harms the dog.

Suze

[Guest guest]

>>Well, I'm sure making a dog comatose by cutting off oxygen to its brain it

by swing it around on a choke collar WORKS to stop the dog from

misbehaving.<<

Hmmm....I never said any of that. That was the previous post, and I made no

mention of it whatsoever in my post.

[Guest guest]

Hi my name is Kim and I'm new to the group. I joined to learn about health

and hate for my introduction to start out due to dog training methods, but I

have to put in my 2 cents worth.

I'm a dog trainer and have trained with both the " cookie pushing " clicker

type methods and the correction based method. I started out as correction

based when I was just a kid. I switched to cookie pushing methods when it

was no longer politically correct to even give your dog a correction. After

6 years of having to walk my dog on a halti (keep in mind I've been training

dogs since I was a kid) because she wouldn't heel unless I had food in my

hand, I went back to correction based training. I do use praise as well but

no food. My dogs now know that I am alpha and there is no question about it.

My dogs are both happy and well trained. I can walk them without treats or a

halti, and they do not pull.

One of the problems in our society today is that things got tilted too much

to the extreme of no one correcting dogs anymore at ALL! Just like the

screaming kid in the grocery store who gets what he wants from his Mom to

make him stop, dogs are the same. They learn that they can walk all over

people and eventually think they are the boss. This is part of the reason

why we have breeds being banned left right and center. It isn't because

certain breeds are worse than others, it's because people do not know how to

handle them and things get out of hand.

As far as hanging a dog goes, if it's a last resort before the dog is put to

sleep, and it solves the problem, is it not worth it? I'd rather see a dog

hung once, fix the problem and move on. It's really not as harmful as you

think, nor as cruel if you look at the other side.

If the dog is coming up the leash at you, would you have the dog latch onto

your face or would you do the only thing you can - take the dog off it's

feet.

This particular correction is not needed in the day to day training of

almost all dogs. It's for extreme cases, and can be very effective. No

swinging of the dog is necessary. :-)

Kim

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Suze Fisher <suzefisher@...> wrote:

>

> Well, I'm sure making a dog comatose by cutting off oxygen to its brain it

> by swing it around on a choke collar WORKS to stop the dog from

> misbehaving.

>

> But anyone with a modicum of compassion would not torture a dog in order

> to

> train it.

>

> I don't know much about Millan, but I adamantly denounce asphyxiating a

> dog

> in order to teach it better behavior. It may WORK, but at what cost?

>

> I know some trainers are averse to aversive training. I'm not a trainer

> and

> I'm personally not averse to SOME degree of aversive training, but nothing

> that harms the dog.

>

> Suze

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >>Well, I'm sure making a dog comatose by cutting off oxygen to its brain

it

> by swing it around on a choke collar WORKS to stop the dog from

> misbehaving.<<

>

> Hmmm....I never said any of that. That was the previous post, and I made

no

> mention of it whatsoever in my post.

Right, *I* mentioned it in my previous post. But that's beside the point. In

the quoted text above I was using it to make a point. You said " Don't worry

about the politics - figure out what WORKS! " By using the example of choking

a dog until he's comatose actually WORKS, I was making the point is that the

philosophy of doing whatever WORKS is not ethical, at least without a

qualifier of doing what works while not harming the dog. Lot's of aversive

training works, but it harms the dog.

Again, I don't know much about Millan, but if he is asphyxiating some dogs

in order to train them, then I will have to disagree with this method. It

may WORK for what it's intended, but it's just cruel.

Suze

[Guest guest]

This is a ridiculous argument. I am not recommending your beat your dog into

submission. Use some common sense. I'm not wasting any more of my energy on

this discussion.

[Guest guest]

> This is a ridiculous argument. I am not recommending your beat your dog

into

> submission. Use some common sense.

You made a point that there are different types of trainers - the positive

reinforcement ones that " scream and carry on " about " how cruel the trainers

like Milan are, and a lot of the trainers like Milan call the positive

enforcement trainers " treat-slinging weenies. " "

Then you said to ignore all the " politics " of this and just do " what WORKS " .

No where did you say that Millan's asphyxiation was unacceptable, so common

sense would dictate that it's in the realm of possibility that you condone

it. Further, you did not qualify your pragmatist view of " do what works " so

it would be common sense to disagree with it, at the very least, without the

qualification of not harming the dog. Those reading your post are not mind

readers and you left no clue as to whether you condoned Millan's

asphyxiation of a dog or not.

Had you said in your original email something to the effect that you don't

condone some of Millan's tactics such as asphyxiation, then readers would've

been given a clue that you don't really mean " do what works " but rather " do

what works without harming the dog " (as Millan might possibly have done with

the asphyxiation).

I'm not wasting any more of my energy on

> this discussion.

Ok.

Suze

[Guest guest]

i just thought i would jump in here with my opinion. i have seen numerous

episodes of the Dog Whisperer and i love Cesar! i think he is amazing and has

done wonders with all kinds of dogs. (or rather their owners) i would love to be

able to hire him to come help us with our dog. i think i know which episode you

all are talking about in regards to the " hanging " of the dog. IIRC he did not

deliberately hold the dog up by his collar and " asphyxiate " him. it was the way

he was handling this very aggressive dog that maybe seemed to look like that.

FWIW the dog was rehabilitated and the family was so grateful that they could

actually take normal walks and interact with their dog normally again. i don't

think Cesar would *ever* intentionally hurt a dog, in fact he emphasizes being

the pack leader and not treating the dog like a child. i think it would be a

good idea for you all to watch his show sometime to get an idea of his

techniques. according to his website the show airs on Fridays at 8p ET on the

National Geographic Channel.

amanda

> This is a ridiculous argument. I am not recommending your beat your dog

into

> submission. Use some common sense.

.

[Guest guest]

> i just thought i would jump in here with my opinion. i have seen numerous

episodes

> of the Dog Whisperer and i love Cesar! i think he is amazing and has done

wonders

> with all kinds of dogs. (or rather their owners) i would love to be able

to hire him to

> come help us with our dog.

Hi ,

I'm sure that a t.v. show in which he stars would not show its star in a bad

light. You will probably get a more balanced view of Millan's tactics if you

do a Google search. I've pasted some samples below.

i think i know which episode you all are talking about in

> regards to the " hanging " of the dog. IIRC he did not deliberately hold the

dog up by

> his collar and " asphyxiate " him. it was the way he was handling this very

> aggressive dog that maybe seemed to look like that.

I don't know which episode it was because I don't watch the show, but the

episode that I was referring to was from an article I posted earlier, which

stated:

" Several instances of cruel and dangerous treatment -- promoted by Millan as

acceptable training methods -- were documented by American Humane, including

one in which a dog was partially asphyxiated in an episode. In this

instance, the fractious dog was pinned to the ground by its neck after first

being " hung " by a collar incrementally tightened by Millan. "

Relatedly, I had a phone consult with my dog's trainer today and she related

to me an episode of the Dog Whisperer she had seen in which Millan had a

pitbull pull him around on...a skateboard? Or a bike? I don't remember what,

but he made the dog pull him (Don't recall if it was a choke collar) until

the dog's tongue turned blue and it's eyes half closed from lack of oxygen

(asphyxiation). Then I think he pinned her down or something like that

until she was so afraid of him she'd do whatever he said. I didn't take

thorough notes on what she said but it was something to this effect.

Essentially he employed incremental asphyxiation until the dog is so fearful

she did whatever he wanted her to do.

My trainer called his methods something like " choke 'em down till they gasp

for air then do compulsion training " .

FWIW the dog was

> rehabilitated and the family was so grateful that they could actually take

normal

> walks and interact with their dog normally again.

Well, if a child was acting aggressively toward other children and Ceasar

Millan came in and incrementally asphyxiated the child till her tongue was

blue THEN taught her how he wanted her to behave it might work just as

effectively.

But some " treat slinging weenie " parents might have a problem with his

methods.

i think it would be a good idea for you all to watch his

> show sometime to get an idea of his techniques. according to his website

the show

> airs on Fridays at 8p ET on the National Geographic Channel.

Thanks, but I don't get National Geographic Channel, and having read about

Millan on the web and having talked to my trainer about him, I doubt I'd

have the stomach to watch some of his shows. Although I'm sure many of the

shows are entertaining.

As said, there are different methods of dog training and the

different camps don't agree with each other. Although I'm not averse to a

degree of aversive training, I'm definitely against the choke

collar/asphyxiation approach. Here's trainer son explaining the

two camps from her perspective.

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

" And so the current professional climate is one laden with some remaining

fierce debate. There's an ever-expanding group of trainers that train

force-free (ad. literature will be some variation on the theme of

" dog-friendly " or " pain-free " ), trainers that still train primarily with

force (ad literature: " no-nonsense " or " common sense " ) and trainers that

employ liberal use of both force and rewards (ad literature: " balanced " or

" eclectic " ). From a consumer's standpoint, the choice in methods is wide.

You can hire a professional to train your dog pretty much any way that suits

your fancy and it's all legal.

The force-free movement gains momentum every year and a sure sign of this is

that many trainers in the other camps resort to murkier and murkier

euphemisms to disguise their more violent practices and retain their market

share. Stressed dogs aren't " shut down, " they're " calm. " It's not

strangling, it's " leading. " As a committed devotee of the " dog-friendly "

camp, I am therefore, along with my colleagues here at The San Francisco

SPCA, somewhat agog at the stunning success of " The Dog Whisperer " . This is

pretty ferocious stuff by anybody's standards. The National Geographic

Channel even runs a disclaimer banner at the bottom of the screen

admonishing people to " not try this at home, " a warning notably absent on

home improvement shows or " Nanny 911 " . Many have suggested that the cloaking

of corporal punishments and hazing in mystical language, promise of instant

results, high octane telegenicity of Cesar Milan and lucky connections with

Los Angeles celebrity clients are sufficient explanation for the Dog

Whisperer phenomenon. The one with the best buzz words wins. But I don't

know.

Janis Bradley, my colleague here at The SPCA, sagely points out that the

positive reinforcement trend has become a big enough juggernaut to warrant a

backlash and Milan represents exactly that. Like the frazzled Los Angelinos

in the film " Crash " (which, notably, took Best Picture honors at The Academy

Awards last year), people are fed up with having to be politically correct

in a chronically frustrating and disconnected world. Couldn't we just " get

real " and stop being kind and tolerant all the time?

And here we positive-reinforcement oriented dog trainers are now telling

everyone they have to be nice and politically correct to the dog? Well,

yes. "

-----------------------------------------------------------

And here are some criticisms from other professional dog trainers/vets (not

stuff you'd see on Millan's t.v. show):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Whisperer

There are professional trainers, behavior consultants and associations that

believe Millan's methods are inhumane, referring to the use of alpha rolls,

flooding, and constant leash corrections. According to them, these

techniques can have serious behavioral consequences.

Dr. Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the

Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University, has said " Cesar

Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though

immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in

some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog

under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not

recognize the error of his ways. " [1] In a February 23, 2006, New York Times

article, Dr. Dodman says of Millan's show, " My college thinks it is a

travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they

have put dog training back 20 years. " [2]

son, The San Francisco SPCA Director of The Academy for Dog

Trainers states, " Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs

and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most

diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady

gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards

has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the

popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like

whispering for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is

unconscionable. " [http://www.spokanimal.org/Newsletter9-06forweb.pdf

On September 6, 2006, The American Humane Association issued a press release

condemning Millan's tactics as " inhumane, outdated, and improper " and called

on the National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately.

[2]

In October 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior

Consultants wrote a letter to the National Geographic Channel regarding

concerns " that the program may lead children to engage in unsafe behaviors. "

The Association called for a change in the program's rating of TV-G. [3]

Suze

[Guest guest]

suze, thanks for those references. i am not trying to tell you what to do; sorry

it came out that way. i will admit i can sometimes be starstruck by tv and go so

far as to think they can do no wrong. i have recently changed my opinion of

Supernanny and i do not think she uses good discipline tactics with the kids. my

husband is good at helping me see right through the crap info that is propagated

through media. i will have to look into the allegations against Milan since i

have never heard them before. i guess i am not arguing for either side, but for

a while my husband and i really liked to try to glean insight from his show

about how to get our dog to walk without pulling us. i literally cannot go on

walks with her b/c it hurts my arm for her to pull so much and when my son was

still needing the stroller i couldn't walk with both of them. so unfortunately

my dog does not get walked very often. we are fortunate now to live across from

an open space with a small lake so we can take her there to run, but if we go on

walks i make my husband hold the leash.

amanda

I'm sure that a t.v. show in which he stars would not show its star in a bad

light. You will probably get a more balanced view of Millan's tactics if you

do a Google search. I've pasted some samples below.

.

[Guest guest]

but for a while my husband

> and i really liked to try to glean insight from his show about how to get

our dog to

> walk without pulling us. i literally cannot go on walks with her b/c it

hurts my arm for

> her to pull so much and when my son was still needing the stroller i

couldn't walk

> with both of them. so unfortunately my dog does not get walked very often.

we are

> fortunate now to live across from an open space with a small lake so we

can take

> her there to run, but if we go on walks i make my husband hold the leash.

Hi ,

Have you taken your dog to a trainer? I'm all too familiar with this problem

as my new Min Pin is a puller and I had a previous Min Pin who was a puller.

My Lexi (current Pin) has a lot of behavioral issues as she spent her entire

life (almost 7 years) in a small cage in a puppy mill as a breeding bitch.

So I'm working through aggression issues as well as loose leash walking and

several other issues. I have found a local clicker trainer and took her

basic 101 class and am continuing to do phone consults with her. I highly

recommend finding a local clicker trainer or some sort of other positive

reinforcement trainer in order to learn how to teach your dog loose leash

walking. With consistent effort you should be able to get your dog to walk

on a loose leash and then you can greatly reduce the stress of your walks,

save your arm, and your dog will be able to live a fuller, happier life.:-)

I've had dogs for almost 18 years but only did one training class years and

years ago before I'd ever heard of positive reinforcement or clicker trainer

and I could kick myself now for not having spent the time and effort to

train my dogs properly from the get-go. Working now with Lexi, I realize how

incredibly important it is to have a well behaved dog!

There are also many books on positive training that give step-by-step

instructions. I can recommend some that have been recommended to me (and

which I own) if you'd like.

Suze

[Guest guest]

> Suze, you must have seen the book I learned about clicker training in

> Girl Scouts with, " Don't Shoot the Dog? " by Pryor? It's a

> popularization of postive reinforcment and clicker training for

> people.

I have it! But I haven't read it yet. I've got several training/behavior

books recommended to me by some folks on a holistic pet health list as well

as some recommended by my trainer. But I haven't had a chance to read them

all yet.

>

> We played the clicker game in a group of 15 girl scout leaders and as

> you can imagine, the professional teachers were the worst. They

> would wait way to long, waiting for a completed result of a long

> complicated task, when all the others were positively reinforce every

> single little movement in the direction we wanted.

Hahaha! I think my mom tends to overcomplicate it too and thus has

difficulty simply clicking and treating a desired behavior or even part of

one. My dad caught on right away though.

> I used it all the time for my kids and what a riot to be able to

> shape them that way. Well not a literal clicker but the idea.

>

> LOL

Hey, that's great! I actually didn't know people were using it with people

other than jokingly. When I introduced the clicker to my parents so they

could use it with my dog Lexi, my mom aimed it at my dad and said something

like " put the toilet seat down " CLICK! And when my mom would get the

sequence of 'ask for behavior, click when behavior is performed, treat "

right, my dad and I would immediately praise my mom with " good girl! Goooood

girl! " But, surprisingly, my mom didn't continue with the desired behavior.

<g>

Suze

[Guest guest]

After

> 6 years of having to walk my dog on a halti (keep in mind I've been

training

> dogs since I was a kid) because she wouldn't heel unless I had food in my

> hand, I went back to correction based training.

Kim, why did you " have to " walk your dog on a halti? Aren't you in charge of

how you walk your dog?

I do use praise as well but

> no food. My dogs now know that I am alpha and there is no question about

it.

> My dogs are both happy and well trained. I can walk them without treats or

a

> halti, and they do not pull.

This is great! But, I'm guessing you didn't asphyxiated your dogs until

their tongues turned blue to teach them loose leash walking.

> One of the problems in our society today is that things got tilted too

much

> to the extreme of no one correcting dogs anymore at ALL!

I think that may be true of some trainers, but certainly not all. I'm

relatively new to positive reinforcement training, but as I understand it,

trainers use it because it works more often than not without harming the

dog.

As I've already stated at least twice, I'm personally not against some

degree of aversive training, but I don't agree with strangulation.

Just like the

> screaming kid in the grocery store who gets what he wants from his Mom to

> make him stop, dogs are the same. They learn that they can walk all over

> people and eventually think they are the boss.

Well, that may be true, and that's probably why the same operant and

classical conditioning can work with humans as well. But from what I've

seen, dogs that are well trained with positive reinforcement are well

behaved and respond appropriately to their boss, the human.

> As far as hanging a dog goes, if it's a last resort before the dog is put

to

> sleep, and it solves the problem, is it not worth it?

Who said it was the last resort?

And how often is that truly the last resort? My guess is *extremely* rarely.

I think most people simply don't take the time and make the effort to train

their dogs properly so they give up and take them to someone like Ceasar

Millan who says he can train them in one day. Or put a shock collar on them.

My neighbor is a good example. Her poodle is on a shock collar because the

dog is out of control and has run loose and bitten both humans and other

dogs. She claims she tried everything and nothing worked so she had to

resort to the shock collar. But when I probed for a few moments about her

previous clicker training with the dog, it turns out she never followed

through with it. Big shocker that it didn't work then! It seems to me this

is a common scenario.

I'd rather see a dog

> hung once, fix the problem and move on. It's really not as harmful as you

> think, nor as cruel if you look at the other side.

Well, if you insert the word " child " in place of " dog " it has a slightly

different effect.

> If the dog is coming up the leash at you, would you have the dog latch

onto

> your face or would you do the only thing you can - take the dog off it's

> feet.

I don't know exactly what scenario you are talking about, but I'm not

certain how this attack dog got at the end of my leash in the first

place...seems like the first mistake right there.

> This particular correction is not needed in the day to day training of

> almost all dogs. It's for extreme cases, and can be very effective. No

> swinging of the dog is necessary. :-)

Unfortunately not all trainers agree and hence my story about the beagle who

was swung into a coma.

Suze