Guest guest Posted May 20, 2008 Report Share Posted May 20, 2008 mom4him48 wrote: > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the bread has > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting it. > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and filtered > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the bread. > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? Unless you do a cold ferment, yes. I highly recommend _Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day_ by Jeff Hertzberg...well, except for the fact that he uses instant yeast to jump start his processes, so ignore that part and use your sourdough starter. Rye and spelt are low gluten flours and my sources tell me (I'm gluten free) that these flours don't give a high loft on bread. High gluten wheat is prized as such for the very reason that more gluten gives a taller, spongier bread. So you take your pick. HTH! --s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Sandy: I made the same recipe a few weeks ago using the rye berries for the starter and fresh ground spelt in the dough. Mine didn't raise very well either, but my family ate it without complaint. I was disappointed in how it turned out considering how much effort was put into it. I think we ended up toasting most of it, because it didn't raise high enough to use as sandwich bread. My husband absolutely loves sourdough bread, so I just ordered a sourdough starter from Leeners.com I am hoping that it will give me better success. christine --- In , " mom4him48 " <mom4him48@...> wrote: > > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the bread has > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting it. > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and filtered > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the bread. > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? It didn't > raise very well either but I had read or heard that it wouldn't so > that wasn't a major. > Sandy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 I am thinking of trying some wheat berries. I am wondering if the strong flavor that I don't like is more from the rye than the sour dough. I guess I will need to experiment with it. Thanks everyone for your input. Sandy > > > > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the bread has > > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting it. > > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and filtered > > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the bread. > > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? It didn't > > raise very well either but I had read or heard that it wouldn't so > > that wasn't a major. > > Sandy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Let me know how it turns out. It seems like wheat has more gluten than spelt doesn't it? > > > > > > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > > > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the bread has > > > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting > it. > > > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and filtered > > > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the bread. > > > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? It didn't > > > raise very well either but I had read or heard that it wouldn't so > > > that wasn't a major. > > > Sandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi Sandy, I have tried three separate sourdough recipes about five times total and have the same experience as you with each of them. One was so extremely sour it stank up the whole house, and only my husband was brave enough to try it. We all love sourdough, but this was a little over the top. Each time mine hasn't risen well either, even though I get the frothy brewing look in my starter :-( My chickens wouldn't even eat it! My final attempt sat on the cupboard so long it fossilized (because no one wanted to eat it), and I may try to use it for bread crumbs. Interestingly, it never molded, just hardened into rock. Anyway, on a positive note there are many wonderful sites out there that explain every nuance imaginable for sourdough bread baking. One site that most caught my attention said if you are a newbie sourdough maker, DO NOT attempt to use your own starter, because you will most likely get frustrated and want to quit. Well, being the pioneer spirit I am, I tried it anyway, got frustrated and wanted to quit. Yes, you're right , it's a lot of effort to throw down the tubes. :-( So this site mentioned one should definitely locate a strong starter from a friend or on-line and start from there. They listed this great resource that sends FREE starter to anyone who sends a pre-paid envelope! Here is the site and the address: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ Oregon Trail Sourdough P.O. Box 321 Jefferson, MD 21755 USA send request and a #10 envelope (9 1/2 " x 4 1/8 " ) In , " mom4him48 " <mom4him48@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > > > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the bread has > > > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting > it. > > > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and filtered > > > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the bread. > > > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? It didn't > > > raise very well either but I had read or heard that it wouldn't so > > > that wasn't a major. > > > Sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hmmm,I will document the site and address. I added spelt flour yesterday and today I added wheat so we will see. I was going to stay away from wheat but if I can get it to work I will use spelt for other things and the wheat for the bread. I made the pancakes this morning(soaking over night) and everyone liked them. I have been a whole wheat yeast bread maker for years and it took me a long time to get that down to a science. My oldest son still teases me that we ate flat bread for a loooooong time. If this batch doesn't work better I will try the address you gave me. Thanks much. Sandy > > > > > > > > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > > > > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the > bread has > > > > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting > > it. > > > > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and > filtered > > > > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the > bread. > > > > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? It didn't > > > > raise very well either but I had read or heard that it wouldn't so > > > > that wasn't a major. > > > > Sandy > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Thanks for the free starter tip! I used some I got on amazon to get started and their recipe with it. It came in a packet like yeast but the directions for using it were different. The directions even said not to follow the directions elsewhere and to save some out for future batches! Since then, when mine has died or scared me (purple water on top makes me think ergot and panic and throw it out), I've used yeast I got at the health food store to start a new batch. The bacteria come from the air after awhile and maybe from using the sourdough a few times a week for so many years the right kinds are in the air here. Other than that, the only thing I can think of to tell you is that the flours you use are very important. I use most often pure 100 hard red winter wheat berries that I've ground in my Nutrimill. Sometimes I get the soft wheat to use but then I mix it in with organic white flour to get the gluten working. Flours from things like oats or spelt ruin the texture of the bread - make it too dry and crumbly. I save them for pancakes, scones and such. Rye flour works a different way than gluten. For that, less mixing is better, and pure rye works better than half rye and half flour. If you mix rye too much it destroys its ability to hold air in bubbles. My problem is that the texture is so different from wheat flour that I can never judge when it's the right consistence so it often turns out too wet or too dry. I've also read to be careful using rye for sourdough starter because of the risk of ergot poisoning. If your sourdough is too sour, letting it rise for less time will help - like put it in the oven with a bowl of hot water or the pilot lite if it's gas so it will be warmer and rise faster. Also, if your starter sinks with the water at the top, that water is very sour stuff. You can pour it off and replace it with tap water (filtered, of course!) without harming the yeast at all. > > > > > > > > I baked my first batch of sour dough bread this morning. It was > > > > interesting. My house smelled a bit like a brewery and the > bread has > > > > a tangy flavor. Neither of my kids are interested in even tasting > > it. > > > > I followed the instructions in NT using rye flour/berries and > filtered > > > > water for starter and spelt(fresh ground) for my flour in the > bread. > > > > Any comments? Is it supposed to smell/taste this way? It didn't > > > > raise very well either but I had read or heard that it wouldn't so > > > > that wasn't a major. > > > > Sandy > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Thanks for all the info. Would I be better throwing what I have and starting fresh with just wheat? That is kind of what I got from what you wrote. I had saved a quart of rye from my first batch, added one cup of rye the first night, a cup of spelt the second night and last night a cup of wheat. Also, what is ergot? Sandy --- In , " haecklers " <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thanks for the free starter tip! I used some I got on amazon to get > started and their recipe with it. It came in a packet like yeast but > the directions for using it were different. The directions even said > not to follow the directions elsewhere and to save some out for > future batches! > > Since then, when mine has died or scared me (purple water on top > makes me think ergot and panic and throw it out), I've used yeast I > got at the health food store to start a new batch. The bacteria come > from the air after awhile and maybe from using the sourdough a few > times a week for so many years the right kinds are in the air here. > > Other than that, the only thing I can think of to tell you is that > the flours you use are very important. I use most often pure 100 > hard red winter wheat berries that I've ground in my Nutrimill. > Sometimes I get the soft wheat to use but then I mix it in with > organic white flour to get the gluten working. Flours from things > like oats or spelt ruin the texture of the bread - make it too dry > and crumbly. I save them for pancakes, scones and such. > > Rye flour works a different way than gluten. For that, less mixing > is better, and pure rye works better than half rye and half flour. > If you mix rye too much it destroys its ability to hold air in > bubbles. My problem is that the texture is so different from wheat > flour that I can never judge when it's the right consistence so it > often turns out too wet or too dry. I've also read to be careful > using rye for sourdough starter because of the risk of ergot > poisoning. > > If your sourdough is too sour, letting it rise for less time will > help - like put it in the oven with a bowl of hot water or the pilot > lite if it's gas so it will be warmer and rise faster. Also, if your > starter sinks with the water at the top, that water is very sour > stuff. You can pour it off and replace it with tap water (filtered, > of course!) without harming the yeast at all. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Ergot is a fungus that grows on grains especially in damp conditions. Rye is especially prone to it. It can cause death but also hallucinations and sickness; many of the events in the Salem witch trials were blamed on the entire community being poisoned with ergot, which is purplish in color. You don't need to throw out your starter. As far as I can tell, almost any flour will keep the starter going and the amount of gluten the starter could contribute to the bread is minimal anyways because the yeast and bacteria break it down over time. I've used kamut, spelt and oat flours to keep the starter going when I was short on the good wheat. > > > > Thanks for the free starter tip! I used some I got on amazon to get > > started and their recipe with it. It came in a packet like yeast but > > the directions for using it were different. The directions even said > > not to follow the directions elsewhere and to save some out for > > future batches! > > > > Since then, when mine has died or scared me (purple water on top > > makes me think ergot and panic and throw it out), I've used yeast I > > got at the health food store to start a new batch. The bacteria come > > from the air after awhile and maybe from using the sourdough a few > > times a week for so many years the right kinds are in the air here. > > > > Other than that, the only thing I can think of to tell you is that > > the flours you use are very important. I use most often pure 100 > > hard red winter wheat berries that I've ground in my Nutrimill. > > Sometimes I get the soft wheat to use but then I mix it in with > > organic white flour to get the gluten working. Flours from things > > like oats or spelt ruin the texture of the bread - make it too dry > > and crumbly. I save them for pancakes, scones and such. > > > > Rye flour works a different way than gluten. For that, less mixing > > is better, and pure rye works better than half rye and half flour. > > If you mix rye too much it destroys its ability to hold air in > > bubbles. My problem is that the texture is so different from wheat > > flour that I can never judge when it's the right consistence so it > > often turns out too wet or too dry. I've also read to be careful > > using rye for sourdough starter because of the risk of ergot > > poisoning. > > > > If your sourdough is too sour, letting it rise for less time will > > help - like put it in the oven with a bowl of hot water or the pilot > > lite if it's gas so it will be warmer and rise faster. Also, if your > > starter sinks with the water at the top, that water is very sour > > stuff. You can pour it off and replace it with tap water (filtered, > > of course!) without harming the yeast at all. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 OK! I guess I will avoid doing the rye in the starter for sure. Thanks for the info. Sandy > > > > > > Thanks for the free starter tip! I used some I got on amazon to > get > > > started and their recipe with it. It came in a packet like yeast > but > > > the directions for using it were different. The directions even > said > > > not to follow the directions elsewhere and to save some out for > > > future batches! > > > > > > Since then, when mine has died or scared me (purple water on top > > > makes me think ergot and panic and throw it out), I've used yeast > I > > > got at the health food store to start a new batch. The bacteria > come > > > from the air after awhile and maybe from using the sourdough a > few > > > times a week for so many years the right kinds are in the air > here. > > > > > > Other than that, the only thing I can think of to tell you is > that > > > the flours you use are very important. I use most often pure 100 > > > hard red winter wheat berries that I've ground in my Nutrimill. > > > Sometimes I get the soft wheat to use but then I mix it in with > > > organic white flour to get the gluten working. Flours from > things > > > like oats or spelt ruin the texture of the bread - make it too > dry > > > and crumbly. I save them for pancakes, scones and such. > > > > > > Rye flour works a different way than gluten. For that, less > mixing > > > is better, and pure rye works better than half rye and half > flour. > > > If you mix rye too much it destroys its ability to hold air in > > > bubbles. My problem is that the texture is so different from > wheat > > > flour that I can never judge when it's the right consistence so > it > > > often turns out too wet or too dry. I've also read to be careful > > > using rye for sourdough starter because of the risk of ergot > > > poisoning. > > > > > > If your sourdough is too sour, letting it rise for less time will > > > help - like put it in the oven with a bowl of hot water or the > pilot > > > lite if it's gas so it will be warmer and rise faster. Also, if > your > > > starter sinks with the water at the top, that water is very sour > > > stuff. You can pour it off and replace it with tap water > (filtered, > > > of course!) without harming the yeast at all. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 > <<My final attempt sat on the cupboard so long it fossilized (because no one wanted to eat it), and I may try to use it for bread crumbs. >> Or kvass? regards from edella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 If you make a real sourdough without yeast, the result is, I believe, far too acidic for ergot to grow. Ergot grows on standing and stored grain. Taste or even just smell that black water some time. Sourdough starter is very acidic. --- In , " haecklers " <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Since then, when mine has died or scared me (purple water on top > makes me think ergot and panic and throw it out), > > Also, if your > starter sinks with the water at the top, that water is very sour > stuff. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 That is good to know. Sandy > > > > > Since then, when mine has died or scared me (purple water on top > > makes me think ergot and panic and throw it out), > > > > Also, if your > > starter sinks with the water at the top, that water is very sour > > stuff. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2008 Report Share Posted May 27, 2008 I've been using Laurel's Kitchen desem bread recipe. While it took a while to get it going, it is a wonderful culture and recipe - completely naturally leavened (no yeast) but light and not sour tasting. Love it. The book is well worth the purchase. p.s. you start the culture using 10 pounds of organic wheat flour, preferably freshly ground, that you must feed and keep at the appropriate temperature for a couple weeks, so it is no small project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2008 Report Share Posted May 27, 2008 That black water on the top of a starter is called hooch. You can stir it back in. Desh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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