Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

[Guest guest]

This is what you said:

" I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree. There is research showing that

C-section babies never match the gut flora of vaginally birthed babies no

matter how they are fed. "

I read that as saying that if you have had a c-section, your baby's gut is

permanently damaged.

Did I misinterpret that?

On Jan 27, 2008 8:16 AM, <inasnit@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Jan 27, 2008 7:58 AM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > I never said that a C-section 'permanently damages' a child in the ways

> > you are inferring, and I

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi Kerry is your story more detailed on your blog? I do not recall

> seeing it there over the yrs.

My full story is on my website- http://www.cookingtf.com/journey.html

You'll notice I had no digestive symptoms until I went off of gluten and my

body started to heal.

> Do you know what kind of pro b's i can give to my 4 mo old? That

> question seemed to get lost in all the other subjects. I am

If you're nursing, probiotics come through your milk, so I'm of the mindset

that it is better to supplement the mom, even if it has to be massive

supplementation, and let her body filter which strains are best for the

infant. I believe nature knows better than our limited science

understanding of it, so let mom be the filter. I know there was a study

that showed that probiotics supplementation with certain strains wouldn't

raise the levels in the milk, but would of other strains. That says to me

the mom is meant to be the filter and babies just aren't meant to have

certain strains.

Your story sounds similar to mine, which says to me that you do have some

gut damage issues that need to be addressed. Finding the root cause is the

first step. For most people, the first step of the journey is finding and

eliminating their food allergies.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

> So you think a c-section does not permanently damage a baby's gut flora? I

> thought that is the point you were making.

> Were you making some other point I missed?

You're making jumps from differences in gut flora for a C-section baby to

autism, major gut damage and other devastating conditions that need massive

intervention from more than just probiotics. I never stated that.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

> If that's not good enough recovery for you, I don't know what is.

I'm not saying it isn't a recovery, just that it isn't a complete

eradication of the bad bacteria.

> OK, so based on that logic, unless you have a degree in something, you don't

> know what you are talking about. So I guess we shouldn't listen to Albert

> Einstein because he didn't finish high school.

You're the one who seems to think Dr. -McBride's degree makes

her infallable... You said: " However, as I mentioned before, this is

not something Dr. -McBride, a doctor in neurology and

nutrition, one of the world's leading experts on this topic, bothered

to even mention in her book. " which was to justify your prior

statement that: " The birth is not that big of an issue in the long

run. "

I honestly don't care what degree you get, it is about the knowledge

(Einstein is a great example). As I said in the quote you cut off in

your reply: " Science is very limited in that the fields do not

communicate with each other, and thus, they totally miss the big

picture. "

But for some reason, you felt it would be important to point our Dr.

-McBride's degrees as justification for her not mentioning

vaginal birth in respect to gut flora, as well as to justify your

assumption that because she didn't mention it, it must not be

important. I simply pointed out that your reasoning was unsound

because if degrees are totally indicative of knowledge (which they are

not), that she is lacking the pertinent one.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

IMHO, yes, you totally misinterpreted that.

What KerryAnn said had absolutely no mention as to the degree of

difference between the babies... simply that the two will " never

match " . That is a far cry from saying one will be perfect and the

other " permanently damaged " . Although, permanently *different* might

be a good summary.

It is like saying if you buy an orange pillow from one manufacturer,

that another manufacturer's orange pillow will never match. While the

two pillows will never completely match, it does not mean that the new

one will not be adequate as a pillow - nor does it mean there is

anything necessarily wrong with that shade of orange. All it means is

that shade of orange isn't what you were looking for in the first

place - but many times it will " make do " just fine because you can't

get anything better.

-Lana, who has orange pillows in her living room

On Jan 27, 2008 11:19 AM, <inasnit@...> wrote:

> This is what you said:

>

> " I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree. There is research showing that

> C-section babies never match the gut flora of vaginally birthed babies no

> matter how they are fed. "

>

> I read that as saying that if you have had a c-section, your baby's gut is

> permanently damaged.

>

> Did I misinterpret that?

[Guest guest]

I disagree that CLO is a food - IMHO it is a supplement, just like probiotics.

CLO is not needed in cultures who have adequate liver stores of

Vitamin A and live in areas where they can produce Vitamin D from the

sun on demand.

Interesting tidbit: At the beginning of the 3rd trimester, the mother

transfers a significant amount of her Vitamin A stores to her child.

I think it was somewhere near 50%, but I'll have to dig up the article

to be sure.

So think about this in terms of a few generations without Vitamin A

rich foods like liver and butter. Assuming 50% of the store is

transferred and Grandma's stores are 100% full (her liver is fully

saturated with Vitamin A), that means Mom will only have 50% of her

storage capacity filled, and her child will only have 25% of capacity.

See the problem?

Is it possible to fully saturate the liver with Vitamin A in a

lifetime using only liver and butter? Sure, although it depends on

the animal the liver comes from: polar bear liver is exceptional, but

chicken livers are fairly pathetic nowadays likely for the same reason

human livers are going downhill (Mom doesn't have enough to transfer

an optimal amount to offspring). Is it easier to use CLO? Yes.

-Lana

> CLO is a food. Therapeutic grade doses of probiotics are not.

[Guest guest]

--- Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

>

> Sure, I agree gut flora can be *improved* via diet but I don't go as

> far as agreeing that it can be completely corrected because quite

> frankly there is no way GAPS fully corrects bad flora if it requires

> its followers to supplement probiotics indefinitely.

> <snip>

> So IMHO, her protocol could use some work. Although, from the

> summaries posted, I would agree that she seems to have the closest

> idea out of everyone I've seen who has called themselves an expert

> on the topic.

Lana, reminds me of a song: Nobody's perfect, we gotta work it, again

and again till we get it right! (Miley Cyrus)

This is what I get for having a 10 yo daughter who watches Hannah

Montana. I actually like the song

I'm encouraged to see more and more research on digestive health. I

do believe it's the critical foundation of our overall health.

My wife was asking how mom's digestive microbiota could be transferred

to the child's digestive system. I've been poking around on the

internet but haven't found any good scientifically-backed theories on

exactly how this happens.

Here's one article I found:

Symposium: Innate Immunity and Human Milk

Probiotics That Modify Disease Risk

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/135/5/1294.pdf

===================================================

The intestinal colonization that follows birth represents the host's

earliest contact with microbes. The indigenous gut microbiota plays

an important role in the generation of immunophysiologic regulation in

the gut by providing crucial signals for the development of the immune

system in infancy and by interfering and actively controlling the gut

associated immunologic homeostasis later in life. The intestinal

microbiota forms a natural defense barrier against harmful microbes in

the environment. Thus, early establishment of a healthy microflora

provides the first key step in long-term well-being later in life.

The microbiota of a newborn develops rapidly after birth

and is initially strongly dependent on the mother's microbiota,

the mode of birth, and the birth environment, subsequently, it

is influenced by feeding practices and the environment of the

child. Most microbiota succession studies have been based on

culture-dependent methodologies, limiting our understanding

of intestinal microbiota species composition. Recent studies

using molecular biology have indicated that the microbiota

of infants develops rapidly during the first week and remains

unstable for the first year of life, becoming more stable afterward.

This initial stage of microbiota establishment could be a

key moment for establishing a healthy microbiota in the

individual through microbiota modulation. Later in life, the

stability of the microbiota makes its permanent modification

difficult.

===================================================

But it still doesn't explain how the microbiota gets from the mom's

digestive system to the baby's.

This article says that oligosaccharides in human milk are likely to

promote beneficial microbes: " Milk Therapy "

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061209/bob8.asp

They also found that breast milk kills cancer cells (in vitro I suspect).

[Guest guest]

--- Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> I disagree that CLO is a food - IMHO it is a supplement, just like

> probiotics. CLO is not needed in cultures who have adequate liver

> stores of Vitamin A and live in areas where they can produce Vitamin

> D from the sun on demand.

Lana, I also consider CLO to be a food-based dietary supplement. If

you get plenty of sun exposure and eat liver once a week, you probably

don't need it. For the rest of us, however, it's a valuable

supplement. High quality CLO has the natural vitamin A and D plus

omega-3 fats that are missing in so many diets. These forms are much

better than the synthetic manufactured vitamins that are often

included in multi-vitamin formulas.

[Guest guest]

> This is what I get for having a 10 yo daughter who watches Hannah

> Montana. I actually like the song

Infectious, isn't it? LOL I wind up walking around the house singing

Veggie Tales.

> My wife was asking how mom's digestive microbiota could be transferred

> to the child's digestive system. I've been poking around on the

> internet but haven't found any good scientifically-backed theories on

> exactly how this happens.

I don't know all the ins and outs, but I've spent a good deal of time

studying it as part of preparing to be a midwife and lactation consultant.

However, I do know someone who could probably point you in the right

direction. I'll e-mail you off-list.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

KerryAnn,

did you work with a health practioner such as Dr. Ron?

--- In , " KerryAnn at CookingTF.com "

<kerryann@...>

wrote:

>

> > I'm guessing you must be feeling much better, to handle taking care of

> > kids, company, and finding time to post. What probiotic did you take

> > and how much? And, have you minimized sugars in your diet?

>

> Yes, I have minimized sugars and empty carbs. I don't currently keep track

> of my daily carb intake. My weight is stable and I'm thin so I don't keep a

> close eye on it. My taste buds can't handle a lot of sugar, though, so that

> limits me.

>

> I did a combination of water kefir, sauerkraut, kvass, ginger ale, LF

> carrots, etc.... At the height of my probiotic consumption, I took several

> milliliters of Dr. Ron's liquid probiotics, 2 S. Boulardii and 3 Renew Life

> Ultimate Flora a day.

>

> KerryAnn

> www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

> www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

>

[Guest guest]

There should never be any eradication, it is supposed to be a balance

.

>I'm not saying it isn't a recovery, just that it isn't a complete

eradication of the bad bacteria.<

> So I guess we shouldn't listen to Albert

> Einstein because he didn't finish high school.<

THAT IS A REDUCTIO AD OBSURDUM PLAY NICE!

You're the one who seems to think Dr. -McBride's degree makes

her infallable... You said: " However, as I mentioned before, this is

not something Dr. -McBride, a doctor in neurology and

nutrition, one of the world's leading experts on this topic, bothered

to even mention in her book. " which was to justify your prior

statement that: " The birth is not that big of an issue in the long

run. "

I honestly don't care what degree you get, it is about the knowledge

(Einstein is a great example). As I said in the quote you cut off in

your reply: " Science is very limited in that the fields do not

communicate with each other, and thus, they totally miss the big

picture. "

But for some reason, you felt it would be important to point our Dr.

-McBride's degrees as justification for her not mentioning

vaginal birth in respect to gut flora, as well as to justify your

assumption that because she didn't mention it, it must not be

important. I simply pointed out that your reasoning was unsound

because if degrees are totally indicative of knowledge (which they are

not), that she is lacking the pertinent one.

-Lana

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3:45 PM

[Guest guest]

> It is counter-productive and insensitive to tell women who have already

> had

> a c-section that they have permanently damaged their child via c-section.

> Please be sensitive to who may be reading your posts.

I agree:

my baby was posterior, the doctor typically had no clue of how extremely huge

she was [and the ramifications of my being very short-waisted, I just kept being

flogged for gaining weight-she was 10#, I lost 20# the day she was born, after

13 hours of induced labor, it was decided by an intoxicated Ob-Gyn, that I

needed a C-section, I have suffered all my life from 'bad' flora, my daughter

has never [she is 40 now] had any trouble that I know of].

This is why I have been careful about responding to this thread and to you

in particular. Ann Marie, you honestly seem quite defensive about your own

decisions on the lists I'm on with you, and are always quick to admonish

people whom you think don't believe you had no choice. I never said that a

C-section 'permanently damages' a child in the ways you are inferring, and I

honestly think you're putting words I my mouth and having an overblown

reaction due to your defensiveness.

There needs to be a line where you personally have to understand that

regardless of what happened to you and the decisions you have made, others

need to be warned about the possible consequences of their choices. I

wouldn't shame a woman for having a C-section, I'm hoping to warn those who

are pregnant or are thinking about getting pregnant how to avoid them and

the other pitfalls common to pregnant women in our society at large.

Because you are overly sensitive to the topic, you take things as a personal

attack when they are not.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

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3:45 PM

[Guest guest]

> did you work with a health practioner such as Dr. Ron?

I was good friends with someone who was qualified to help. So she assisted

me instead of going with one of the commonly recommended practitioners.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> No one is arguing that c-sections are better or even preferable.

Ann Marie, actually, I would argue that c-sections are preferable to

death of mom and child, which is what used to happen when the baby

wouldn't come out. But threat of imminent death or serious harm may

be the only circumstances where it is worth the risk. Ideally a

c-section should not be used unless the risk of death/harm is greater

without the c-section than with. Although, in practice, it may be

difficult to determine these risks. However, from what I am hearing

it does sound like having a good mid-wife can make a big difference on

lowering that risk of death or harm in the first place.

[Guest guest]

Agreed.

I think Dawn made a good point though, about the changes in skeletal

structure causing thinner, narrower faces and hips. This may one of the

important factors for the increase we have seen in c-sections.

On Jan 27, 2008 10:03 AM, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

>

> > No one is arguing that c-sections are better or even preferable.

>

> Ann Marie, actually, I would argue that c-sections are preferable to

> death of mom and child, which is what used to happen when the baby

> wouldn't come out. But threat of imminent death or serious harm may

> be the only circumstances where it is worth the risk. Ideally a

> c-section should not be used unless the risk of death/harm is greater

> without the c-section than with. Although, in practice, it may be

> difficult to determine these risks. However, from what I am hearing

> it does sound like having a good mid-wife can make a big difference on

> lowering that risk of death or harm in the first place.

>

>

[Guest guest]

A lot of this discussion has been very counterproductive. C-section vs

vaginal birth and gut flora. Many of us have crappy gut flora to

begin with--why would we necessarily desire to pass this on to our

infants? If you are healthy or have healed your gut flora by whatever

means then your baby will inherit this through a vaginal birth--great.

IF, you have to have a C-section (and not all are unnecessary) then

have someone collect your " good " vaginal secretions using a suction

trap before the surgery. (Suction traps are what they use to suction

the baby's mouth during delivery). These secretions can then be

instilled into the infant's mouth immediately after delivery. VOILA,

faux vaginal birth. (Don't attack me about it not being the same. I

know it's not the same for mother or infant, hence, the faux comment).

However, if you have bad gut flora to begin with, concomitantly you

will have bad vaginal flora, then using a probiotic as your infant's

first bacterial innoculation might be the best thing, C-section or

vaginal birth.

Rita.

[Guest guest]

> Lana, reminds me of a song: Nobody's perfect, we gotta work it, again

> and again till we get it right! (Miley Cyrus)

>

> This is what I get for having a 10 yo daughter who watches Hannah

> Montana. I actually like the song

LOL! I've never watched Hannah Montana (my first child is coming in

July), but I find it reassuring that children are being exposed to

such a concept.

> My wife was asking how mom's digestive microbiota could be transferred

> to the child's digestive system. I've been poking around on the

> internet but haven't found any good scientifically-backed theories on

> exactly how this happens.

>

> But it still doesn't explain how the microbiota gets from the mom's

> digestive system to the baby's.

You know, I haven't seen any " scientific proof " as to that either.

But from experience I can tell you that when I eat yogurt with

acidophilus, it does wonders for my vaginal health - so the bacteria

is definitely being transferred between the GI tract and birth canal

somehow (my best guess is through blood).

But that said, eating yogurt alone doesn't seem to keep that area as

balanced as it could be - which is one of the main reasons I have come

to respect environment as a variable in microbial balance. Douching

is a wonderful concept, but most commercial solutions and home recipes

are made with vinegar (acetic acid) which doesn't help lactobacillus

to colonize. The three main bacteria in the vaginal tract are L.

acidophilus, L. johnsonii and L. crispatus, which all produce hydrogen

peroxide (not all lactobacillus do, but all lactobacillus are tolerant

of peroxide). So I use a mix of saline and hydrogen peroxide which

does wonders in keeping my colonies in line. Doing this has helped me

make leaps and bounds in the health of my *gut*, showing the transfer

can occur in reverse.

My experiments have been what have brought me to the understanding

that human beings are simply big microbe magnets. I've been working

on a similar salt blend to mist onto my skin after showers (which

remove the natural salts that build up on the skin from sweating), to

aid this process. I have found eating a diet high in salt (or

following a protocol such as Salt/C) really helps skin microbial

balance too, but it doesn't do much for the immediate re-colonization

when you exit the shower. (And you really gotta be careful about

towels - if they've sat around damp too long they'll accumulate bad

bacteria. I use fragrance free detergents so when I smell the towels,

I can tell if they've gone off.)

> This article says that oligosaccharides in human milk are likely to

> promote beneficial microbes: " Milk Therapy "

> http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061209/bob8.asp

GOS (galactooligosaccharides) are *fantastic*. I am totally in awe of

their ability to correct gut flora. I'm so glad I got off the CF diet

I was on. I can't even begin to convey how much a regular milk intake

has helped me. I have been searching for other GOS containing foods,

but the research just doesn't seem to be there - so I'm limited to

galactose content in foods, which seems to do okay but not as good as

GOS. Fermentation of galactose containing foods (cabbage for example)

can increase GOS content. Mmmmmm GOS. I love it so much I've even

tried to purchase a purified supplement form of it, but I couldn't

find anyone selling it direct to consumers.

Actually, there's a great formula study that utilizes GOS:

http://tinyurl.com/35pppx

" The addition of the prebiotic GOS/FOS mixture [90% GOS, 10% FOS] to

an infant formula has a stimulating effect on the growth of

bifidobacteria and on the metabolic activity of the total intestinal

flora. The changes in short chain fatty acids, lactate and pH in the

prebiotic group represent a fermentation profile that is closer to

that observed in breast-fed infants compared to infants fed control

formula. "

-Lana

[Guest guest]

> I think Dawn made a good point though, about the changes in skeletal

> structure causing thinner, narrower faces and hips. This may one of the

> important factors for the increase we have seen in c-sections.

Then how come midwives continue to have such low C-section rates in the face

all off of these deformities? What about midwives in the rest of the

industrialized world? Why are their transfer and C-section rates so low

considering the poor nutrition in some other first-world countries? Why

does the US have more mother and infant death and injury than any other

country in the industrialized world, and a higher C-section rate than any of

the other countries with less death and injury? I won't risk answering my

own questions.

I have a narrow, mis-shapen pelvis, and I had a 10-pound baby vaginally, at

home with a midwife. I don't believe it's impossible. In fact, I likely

would have been pushed to a section had I been in a hospital due to the

circumstances. However, the pelvic bones are incredibly flexible in labor

to the point that a good midwife knows how to use that to her advantage.

And a good midwife understands how to be patient.

A lot of the high C-section rate comes down to two factors- impatience and

lack of the proper skill set.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> These are kids who had autism -- who could not speak and had no

> language. Who sat and watched spinning objects all day and did not

> interact with anyone. They can speak now and function normally. They

> are in regular schools.

>

> These are kids who had severe allergies to wheat, dairy, etc. Kids

> who can now eat those foods with no reactions.

Ann Marie, I'm curious if Dr -McBride mentions any measures of

success for her program. For instance, what percentage of children

had wheat and/or dairy allergies and lost them on the program? I'm

not sure what outcome measures could be used for mental function -

maybe compare children with the same symptoms at the same age who

received her treatment versus children with the same symptoms and age

who received a different treatment or no treatment.

[Guest guest]

> Not everyone has access to a midwife. Due to my insurance, I didn't

have the

> choice. They do not allow midwives at the hospital I gave birth in.

Then have a lay midwife and birth at home much, much less complications

and much less expensive. I home birthed two babies, one was 8lbs 8oz

no complications and the other was 11 lbs 9oz born in water, no

complications, not even a tear. For thousands of years women have been

having babies and it much safer than in a hospital. There are certain

rules when you walk into a hosp that you have to birth in 24 hours or

baby is taken C-Section etc etc etc. They push drugs on you and don't

let you do what your body is meant to do naturally. Just ask a lay

midwife or someone that teaches Bradley labor classes the stats on

homebirth vs hosp birth. Educate yourselves, just like what you did in

your diet! Almost ALL insurance companies like and pay for lay

midwives as they are much cheaper than hosp births.

[Guest guest]

On Jan 27, 2008 10:19 AM, mi2gibson <migibson@...> wrote:

> A lot of this discussion has been very counterproductive. C-section vs

> vaginal birth and gut flora. Many of us have crappy gut flora to

> begin with--why would we necessarily desire to pass this on to our

> infants?

>

This is the point I have been trying to make all along. Thank you, Rita.

Well said!

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana,

I have had 3 hospital births and one water homebirth. When we have

more children i will not set foot in a OB docs office or a hospital

unless it is an emergency.

The 1st was a private hospital and epidural. No tearing, lot's of

swelling.

2nd was military hospital - very bad experience, the worst and

totally drug free, some tearing.

3rd was a German hospital - second worst experience - convinced i

needed to take something as baby was in danger for not progressing

quickly enough. I was in the hospital about 3 hrs before she was

born. The whole labor lasted 6 hrs. They kept trying to get me to

take any and everything from pain meds to pitocin. Demanded IV's and

got something in them against my wishes. It was horrible. No

tearing, lot's of swelling.

Homebirth - awesome! I did 24 hrs of laboring at home getting some

extra meals made up - lot's of bone broth soups , folded laundry,

kids were all in bed and slept through the birth. Did not have to

worry about rushing out at 1am to hospital and have a sitter for the

kids. We filled the birthing tub, got in and 45 mins later she was

born. The water i think helped with the pushing and of course the

position of being more in a squatting position as opposed to the

typical lay down and don't move.

I thought for the first time that birth maybe was not as gross and

embarassing and fish bowl like for me. I was in my own home, minimal

light instead of feeling bright spot lighted at the hospital. Like a

freak on display for teams to come and watch. That feeling for me is

so extreme, if i did not love children and want a house full, i would

have done soemthing permanent to change it just to be sure i did not

have to go through it again. I dreaded each delivery.

I really loved this experience. My midwives did not count on me

being a fast deliverer it took them 45 minutes to get there. I was

not happy about that, but hey we planned to do this at home so we

could be in charge. I called on my 3rd 5 min contaction in a row.

Got in the tub. About 10 minutes before they get there i feel the

urges to push. They were arriving just as the 4th push was given and

there she was. They got to the pool in time to so me scoop her. My

poor DH was busy letting them in and turning the water off. He

entered the room with them when she was born. He was disappointed he

really wanted to be there and scoop her up. The neatest for me was i

was the one to guide her and pull her out of the water, scoop and

hold her immediatly. I did it myself, i delivered my own baby. That

was quite amazing to me to be the one to feel and touch her. It

really personalized it and made it my birth. It made it amazing,

that i was doing it, i just can't explain it at all. It really

changed my perspective and left me so awed of birth for the first

time. The others where their's and left me feeling very bad

emotionally, very degraded and less human.

I think because of the water i had 0 stress on my body delivery wise

and there was no sign of any kind of swelling, not a tear etc. (not

so with all of my others) We let the placenta deliver in the tub,

all mess was contained there. The tub was in my room next to bed, so

i could climb right into it with my baby. We layed there and stared

at each other in our own home (out side of that cold bowl of yucky

placenta it was so moving ) No nurses and docs bugging us. Even

the midwives once i was comfortable and cuddled up with her and

blankets left us alone for awhile and hung out in my livingroom

giving us time together before any procedural stuff.

I loved she was not exposed to the nasty bugs at the hospital. I

loved that my midwives left the cord and placenta attached to her for

as long as necessary until it started shutting down (40 mins later)

so she could get all the nutrion it still had to offer her. We

burned the cord off (which i think it helped it fall off better later

on, than the typical cutting the cord). They did not weigh her until

she was ready.

When they came back in to check on us they asked about taking vital

stats - i could say no come back later. But we tried, baby cried the

second they put a hand on her to move her from. She stiffened and

looked like who's that cried. The midwives nope she is not ready to

leave her mom yet, we wait until babies are ready for us to weigh

them. They tried off and off for a couple of hrs until she finally

would not cry when they touched and tried to move her away from me.

She needed that time with mom and they respected and gave that to

her. That was so awesome too. They respected the baby's needs not

protocl, not time and clocks, and rounds

Then they left and we went to sleep. I never left my house it was

great. It was truly natural. The way it really should be. We

should not be whisked off somewhere like it is some big medical

emergency. I was so much less stressed, i was relaxed for the most

part. We all know that the body works against you under stress, my

other births were much harder because of all the annoyances at the

hospital. I felt my contractions were a bit more painful, but harder

to tolerate at the hospital, but at home it was different. The whole

experienced was awesome and amazing to me for the first time, yet

this was my 4th child. I encourage you (and anyone else) to not just

seek a midwife, but a true homebirth midwife and consider the natural

homebirht option.

Oh and they did clean up any mess and laundry. Another bonus All

of that to share wit hyou or anyone interested in thought of a

homebirth or midwife, please do not deprive yourself of knowing how

it really is for most all homebirthers. i have not met one yet that

wishes they had went to the hopsital. They all say i wish i would

have homebirthed from the beginning.

>

> Really? Awesome. Thanks for sharing that! I guess I should find

> myself a real midwife instead of an OB... just in case.

>

> -Lana

>

> > Many midwives have the skill set necessary to deliver breeches

safely.

>

[Guest guest]

That is a good question. I do not know if she has any published studies.

Her book is more of a handbook -- a guide for people with GAPS and the

parents of children with GAPS.

On Jan 27, 2008 10:25 AM, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

>

>

> Ann Marie, I'm curious if Dr -McBride mentions any measures of

> success for her program. For instance, what percentage of children

> had wheat and/or dairy allergies and lost them on the program? I'm

> not sure what outcome measures could be used for mental function -

> maybe compare children with the same symptoms at the same age who

> received her treatment versus children with the same symptoms and age

> who received a different treatment or no treatment.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Agreed.

>

> I think Dawn made a good point though, about the changes in skeletal

> structure causing thinner, narrower faces and hips. This may one of the

> important factors for the increase we have seen in c-sections.

>

>

>

>

To be very precise, the actual narrower hips are only in women. men

actually have wider hips on a poor diet. For the shoulders, the

opposite is true. Male shoulders are normally wide, female narrow,

but on a poor diet, they are close to the same. Ribcages, jawbones,

and skulls are always narrower, in both sexes, on a poor diet.

mike

[Guest guest]

I can't remember what it is called but we plan

> to go buy it.

It's called a supplementary nursing system or SNS. If you search the

net for a Medela dealer they will have it.

Dora