RE: Re: POLITICS: Impeach TX Judge, FLDS Incident

June 4, 2008

They took those kids without EVIDENCE that they were being treated as you allege

they were. IMO, the biggest part of the problem here is that based on a RUMOR,

without evidence, they traumatized all those children by forcibly removing them

from their parents and scattering them all over the state. And its a BIG state!

Now that the children are being returned, the parents must go pick them up! All

of the burden is on the parents, most of whom are innocent of what they say was

going on inside that compound.

In cases of physical abuse, they refuse to remove children without proof and the

children continue to be abused, many to death. But, based on a rumor they took

these children.

The other BIG part of them problem is that to remove one child, they had to take

them all, by Texas state law. This included children that were not at risk of

being victims of the alleged abuse, such as tiny babies. This was JUST PLAIN

wrong!

Yes, under these circumstances, IMO, the judge acted too hastily. But, I'm not

sure about impeachment. She'll pay the price for this one, I'm sure.

Kathy

---- <beauty4ashesisaiah61@...> wrote:

=============

In Germany they rounded people up out of pure evil intentions; racism

etc. Not because kids were being treated more or less as a piece of

property and used sex slaves. I think the comparison is way off here.

Does the article explain why the judge is doing this?

INMO if the girls are still at risk in that compound of being married

out as young teens to to old men and forced to have intercourse.....

i can just say i am glad that i am not a judge dealing with this. I

am all for constituional rights and gvmnt staying out of my buisness

and leaving fmailies alone. Let parents homeschool, feed raw milk

etc. But when children are put in the hands of molestors and

rapists, it is just plain wrong. Especially when it is cloaked in

the name of religion. That is an even more horrible injustice

because their trauma will always be asosciated with distorted beliefs

in God. I personally feel that something should be done other than

letting them go back there where it will just continue to happen.

This is forced on them by a bunch of brainwashed adults, it would not

be on the to do list for most teen age girls.

June 4, 2008

Do you have any proof as to them being " forced " or is this your emotional

reaction? And they're not married, btw. They willingly bear children in

order to further their religious progression. Their god has sex in heaven

creating spirit babies that are in need of human bodies. When you learn

about the religious beliefs of this group, you will learn there are no

rapes, no " victims " but only those dedicated to their god, receiving

blessings for their works. No FLDS girl would ever tell you she's in the

hands of a molestor or rapist. Those charges are unfounded.

Sharon

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 1:12 PM, <beauty4ashesisaiah61@...>

wrote:

> In Germany they rounded people up out of pure evil intentions; racism

> etc. Not because kids were being treated more or less as a piece of

> property and used sex slaves. I think the comparison is way off here.

> Does the article explain why the judge is doing this?

>

> INMO if the girls are still at risk in that compound of being married

> out as young teens to to old men and forced to have intercourse.....

> i can just say i am glad that i am not a judge dealing with this. I

> am all for constituional rights and gvmnt staying out of my buisness

> and leaving fmailies alone. Let parents homeschool, feed raw milk

> etc. But when children are put in the hands of molestors and

> rapists, it is just plain wrong. Especially when it is cloaked in

> the name of religion. That is an even more horrible injustice

> because their trauma will always be asosciated with distorted beliefs

> in God. I personally feel that something should be done other than

> letting them go back there where it will just continue to happen.

> This is forced on them by a bunch of brainwashed adults, it would not

> be on the to do list for most teen age girls.

>

> .

>

> >

> > " In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak

> up

> > because I wasn't a Communist; And then they came for the trade

> unionists,

> > And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist; And then

> they came

> > for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew; And

> then . . .

> > they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to

> speak up. " This

> > is a worthy petition to sign before they come for " us " - for those

>

--

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

June 4, 2008

>>They willingly bear children in

order to further their religious progression. ... When you learn

about the religious beliefs of this group, you will learn there are no

rapes, no " victims " but only those dedicated to their god, receiving

blessings for their works. No FLDS girl would ever tell you she's in the

hands of a molestor or rapist. <<

If they are willing participants, why, if they want out of the religion and

off of the compound, do they have to escape? That does not indicate a

willing participant. They are not allowed to freely come and go. They are

required to marry at a young age, and if they are not interested in

marrying, they have to anyway. It is a man-dominated society, and the women

seem to have little choice in how their lives are spent.

Escape by Carolyn Jessop: " Carolyn's every move was dictated by her

husband's whims. He decided where she lived and how her children would be

treated. He controlled the money she earned as a school teacher. He chose

when they had sex; Carolyn could only refuse—at her peril. For in the FLDS,

a wife's compliance with her husband determined how much status both she and

her children held in the family. "

Stolen Innocence by Elissa Wall: " Detailing how Jeffs forced her into an

unwanted marriage at age 14, Elissa speaks candidly about the horrifying

reality she faced as a young teenager in a devastating marriage to a man

five years her senior. But what began as tragic tale of forced marriage

quickly descended into madness, as Elissa's troubled relationship spiraled

out of control before her vows were even spoken. The end result of the union

was a nightmare of rape and abuse that Elissa suffered at the hands of her

Church-appointed husband and in the name of God. "

I don't think most people would have a problem with letting this or any

other group practice their religious beliefs, but when people, especially

children, are forced into marriage, sex, and motherhood, that's NOT right.

June 4, 2008

>>I don't think most people would have a problem with letting this or any

other group practice their religious beliefs, but when people, especially

children, are forced into marriage, sex, and motherhood, that's NOT right.<<

you are right, it's not right. it's an abomination. but people are sinners.

people do bad things to other people ALL the time. we are completely unaware

of most of what goes on in this world. would you rather have the government

dictating everything we can and cannot do with our own lives? this is where

it's going. especially if we demand that the government step in every time.

and certainly we don't have all of the facts on this case. here is a point

of view on a person's blog you might be interested in reading:

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/MotherJoy/524349/

amanda

June 4, 2008

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, <beauty4ashesisaiah61@...> wrote:

> In Germany they rounded people up out of pure evil intentions; racism

> etc. Not because kids were being treated more or less as a piece of

> property and used sex slaves. I think the comparison is way off here.

> Does the article explain why the judge is doing this?

The comparison is not off at all. And you don't need to look to

Germany, our country has plenty of precedent for this kind of

behaviour that Americans typically don't like to think about.

They rounded up the members of this community based on a false

allegation from a mentally deranged person in order to break up a

religious community the state of Texas did not like. They came blazing

with guns, separated families without one piece of evidence that

something was amiss, created what can only be described as

concentration camps, and even now, without a single charge being

leveled against anyone in the group, seeking to get and have 24 hour

access to their private property and restrict their freedom of

movement by not allowing them to leave the state. And oh yes, not one

sexually abused person has shown up.

The Texas Supreme Court is right, this judge and the Texas CPS, which

has a legitimate problem in its own ranks with child molesters and

serial abusers, are way out of line. This is an unconscionable act of

a police state agency which is, around the country, simply out of

control.

If you want to follow the FACTS of the case there are two blogs which

have nailed the issue(s) dead on:

Pro Libertate: http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/

The relevant posts begin with, _The Child Snatchers Win_

and

Grits for Breakfast

Welcome to Texas justice: You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/06/yfz-kids-headed-home.html

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

June 4, 2008

What's the 'childhood norm' and who decides it? Raw Milk could be listed as

against the " childhood norm " and child abuse.

So could refusing vaccinations. Homeschooling, not letting your kid have

Mc's Happy Meals.

Where does it end?

Sexual abuse is against the law and these cases should be pursued as any

other sexual abuse case, with DUE PROCESS OF LAW.

If we throw that out the window because our " gut " tell us these people are a

den of criminals we might as well throw out all of our rights. Though one

could argue we are long past that with the Patriot Act and what-not.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of

Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:33 PM

Subject: Re: POLITICS: Impeach TX Judge, FLDS Incident

Do you have proof that all of those children are willing and of sound

mind to make a choice and judgement like this? I don't think so. And

since when do i need proof to voice my opinion on what a childhood norm

should be considering we live in a society that is not okay with this

kind of stuff. So does that mean you think the Islamic extremist

should have the right to brainwash their children and strap them to

bombs so they can commit holy jihads too? What do you want proof they

were forced into that also? Blowing kids up okay with you?

You feel there is nothing criminal here because it takes place on their

private compound? Do you think they are above the law because it is to

further their religious views? Or because they own those children they

can choose to impregenate and marry them off?

There have been plenty of interviews with various survivors over the

yrs with the now adults who have left or been thrown out of those types

of compounds - their stories it is forced on them. Yes married at 14

etc. They do not have choices they are expected to keep in line or are

tossed out with no where to go. To a world they have been taught is

evil, vile, and satanic. The fact that you are even defending them

makes me wonder if your basing it on your emotions. I totally did not

read any kind of hey food for thought here, but actual defensiveness in

your post.

I do not see how anyone who has any knowledge of these fundamental

polyg. mormon sects would ever say they are not forced. Those children

behind those walls and gates have no idea about life outside that

compound nor what a societal norm is. They are taught to do it no

questions asked. That is brain washing and since when has brainwashing

become a choice? I take great offense that you would even imply kids

as young as 12 make these choices - to marry and bare children, to

devote themselves to a god. Kids this age do what they are taught.

They do not have the faculties to fully embrace and understand marriage

or religion at this age. Heck most theologians, scientists, and adults

can't even agree or come to any definitive conclusion on anything in

this life in regards to these 2 issues, but you think children can??

You are saying the victims are asking for it, wanting it. Yes i

believe *they believe* they are upholding a very virtuos and important

task. But only because it has been engrained into their minds. If

they were given a true choice they would not be choosing to sit around

and birthing babies and be wedded to men old enough to be their

grandfathers. You were right in posting something equating it to

Hilter and the nazis - the brainwashing of innocent and vulnerable

people.

Sorry but your reply sickens me.

>

> Do you have any proof as to them being " forced " or is this your

emotional

> reaction? And they're not married, btw. They willingly bear

children in

> order to further their religious progression. Their god has sex in >

June 4, 2008

Carolyn Jessop was 35 years old when she 'escaped'. There are plenty of

non-FLDS women in abusive relationships. That's an entirely separate issue

than government interference in families. Ignore the fascist behavior of

the TX child/family services, and you can expect them to show up at your

door some day demanding your children, too, for heaven only knows what.

Sharon

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 2:41 PM, <sabrina.moeti@...> wrote:

>

> Escape by Carolyn Jessop: " Carolyn's every move was dictated by her

> husband's whims. He decided where she lived and how her children would be

> treated. He controlled the money she earned as a school teacher. He chose

> when they had sex; Carolyn could only refuse—at her peril. For in the FLDS,

> a wife's compliance with her husband determined how much status both she

> and

> her children held in the family. "

>

June 4, 2008

I fully believe that people are accountable to Yahweh - Jesus Christ of the

Holy Bible - for their actions and that every person will give an

accounting. There is justice but it isn't always here in earth. Bottom

line - I do NOT think the government has any say in the religious

convictions of one group and that's what this action in TX against the FLDS

came down to. Personally, I think their religion is Out There, but I will

defend their right to hold to whatever beliefs they want as long as they

have not violated REAL law. There were absolutely no laws broken, and no

reason to remove 400 children. Unless you want the government swooping in

on your neighborhoods, you should rethink how much control you want to give

them. I would not want them mandating religion which is exactly what this

is about.

Sharon

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 5:33 PM, <beauty4ashesisaiah61@...>

wrote:

> Do you have proof that all of those children are willing and of sound

> mind to make a choice and judgement like this? I don't think so. And

> since when do i need proof to voice my opinion on what a childhood norm

> should be considering we live in a society that is not okay with this

> kind of stuff. So does that mean you think the Islamic extremist

> should have the right to brainwash their children and strap them to

> bombs so they can commit holy jihads too? What do you want proof they

> were forced into that also? Blowing kids up okay with you?

>

> You feel there is nothing criminal here because it takes place on their

> private compound? Do you think they are above the law because it is to

> further their religious views? Or because they own those children they

> can choose to impregenate and marry them off?

>

> There have been plenty of interviews with various survivors over the

> yrs with the now adults who have left or been thrown out of those types

> of compounds - their stories it is forced on them. Yes married at 14

> etc. They do not have choices they are expected to keep in line or are

> tossed out with no where to go. To a world they have been taught is

> evil, vile, and satanic. The fact that you are even defending them

> makes me wonder if your basing it on your emotions. I totally did not

> read any kind of hey food for thought here, but actual defensiveness in

> your post.

>

> I do not see how anyone who has any knowledge of these fundamental

> polyg. mormon sects would ever say they are not forced. Those children

> behind those walls and gates have no idea about life outside that

> compound nor what a societal norm is. They are taught to do it no

> questions asked. That is brain washing and since when has brainwashing

> become a choice? I take great offense that you would even imply kids

> as young as 12 make these choices - to marry and bare children, to

> devote themselves to a god. Kids this age do what they are taught.

> They do not have the faculties to fully embrace and understand marriage

> or religion at this age. Heck most theologians, scientists, and adults

> can't even agree or come to any definitive conclusion on anything in

> this life in regards to these 2 issues, but you think children can??

>

> You are saying the victims are asking for it, wanting it. Yes i

> believe *they believe* they are upholding a very virtuos and important

> task. But only because it has been engrained into their minds. If

> they were given a true choice they would not be choosing to sit around

> and birthing babies and be wedded to men old enough to be their

> grandfathers. You were right in posting something equating it to

> Hilter and the nazis - the brainwashing of innocent and vulnerable

> people.

>

> Sorry but your reply sickens me.

>

> >

> > Do you have any proof as to them being " forced " or is this your

> emotional

> > reaction? And they're not married, btw. They willingly bear

> children in

> > order to further their religious progression. Their god has sex in >

>

June 4, 2008

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 6:34 PM, <beauty4ashesisaiah61@...>

wrote:

> *So in my opinion it is those who do

> nothing that cause the state to jump in and take care of things they

> have no right taking care of. It is our doing nothing that gives the

> state the ability to grow like that nasty Fungi - with their

> tentacles far reaching into every part of our personal life.*

>

That's right. It is those who do nothing, and in this case, if we do not

send a message to judges who want to make up their own laws, instead of

following the laws on the book, then you can expect to lose what little

freedom you have left.

Sharon

June 4, 2008

,

> Do you have proof that all of those children are willing and of sound

> mind to make a choice and judgement like this?

The proof that is necessary is not from the parents. The burden is on

the state to show they were in danger. They simply didn't meet that

burden. They didn't even try. They received a so-called allegation,

and then proceeded to remove 465 children, many who turned out not to

be minors at all. Further, since when does a single allegation, even a

false one, lead to the removal of the children of an entire community?

You investigate and nab the culprit, not a declare a whole community a

" single family " unit so that under the guise of " the law " you can

destroy the entire community.

> I don't think so. And

> since when do i need proof to voice my opinion on what a childhood norm

> should be considering we live in a society that is not okay with this

> kind of stuff.

Even if " society " was okay with it, you could still voice your

opinion. The problem is your opinion is in defense of an ugly nasty

police state action that totally bypassed any semblance of due process

of law in the vacuous name of the children.

> So does that mean you think the Islamic extremist

> should have the right to brainwash their children and strap them to

> bombs so they can commit holy jihads too?

Interesting analogy, although I would use it to compare the " Islamic

extremists " with the Texas CPS agents who showed up on the property

loaded to bear ready to shoot any man, woman, or child who dared to

resist the removal of all 465 " children " . I guess I would call them

red state fascists rather than Islamic extremists.

> What do you want proof they

> were forced into that also? Blowing kids up okay with you?

There is a legitimate argument that can be made about the age of

sexual consent which has historically been quite low and is still

legally quite low by our " modern " way of thinking in most states. But

to compare such a thing with " blowing kids up " is neither helpful or

very rational, IMO.

> You feel there is nothing criminal here because it takes place on their

> private compound?

Apparently the Texas CPS hasn't found anything criminal either, since

no one has been charged.

> Do you think they are above the law because it is to

> further their religious views?

Exactly what law have they violated? You might want to contact the

Texas CPS since they seem to be having a difficult time finding a

violation of law, although I'm sure in order to save face they will

come up with something.

Or because they own those children they

> can choose to impregenate and marry them off?

Have you actually studied this case?

> There have been plenty of interviews with various survivors over the

> yrs with the now adults who have left or been thrown out of those types

> of compounds - their stories it is forced on them.

Do you have any examples that are relevant to this situation?

> Yes married at 14

> etc.

Marriage at 14 might offend your own personal sensibilities but it is

legal in most of the US and around the world. The most well known

relationship of all time, ph and , occurred when was most

likely about 14 and ph a ***much*** older man.

> They do not have choices they are expected to keep in line or are

> tossed out with no where to go.

Yeah that was kind of the way I was brought up. If I rejected my

parents values while still living under their roof, then I was free to

do so on my own dime, not theirs, which meant leaving the house.

> To a world they have been taught is

> evil, vile, and satanic. The fact that you are even defending them

> makes me wonder if your basing it on your emotions. I totally did not

> read any kind of hey food for thought here, but actual defensiveness in

> your post.

>

> I do not see how anyone who has any knowledge of these fundamental

> polyg. mormon sects would ever say they are not forced.

Forced to do what? Have sex? Marry? Believe in the God of Mormonism?

All against their will?

> Those children

> behind those walls and gates have no idea about life outside that

> compound nor what a societal norm is. They are taught to do it no

> questions asked. That is brain washing and since when has brainwashing

> become a choice? I take great offense that you would even imply kids

> as young as 12 make these choices - to marry and bare children, to

> devote themselves to a god. Kids this age do what they are taught.

> They do not have the faculties to fully embrace and understand marriage

> or religion at this age.

Nonsense

> Heck most theologians, scientists, and adults

> can't even agree or come to any definitive conclusion on anything in

> this life in regards to these 2 issues, but you think children can??

Well in the case of theologians I would say it has little to do with age...

> You are saying the victims are asking for it, wanting it. Yes i

> believe *they believe* they are upholding a very virtuos and important

> task. But only because it has been engrained into their minds. If

> they were given a true choice they would not be choosing to sit around

> and birthing babies and be wedded to men old enough to be their

> grandfathers.

What you " believe " isn't really the issue however. And unless you are

God with the ability to read hearts it really is difficult to think

you know what someone else really wants. It is even worse to attempt

to impose on them what " you believe " they really should believe at the

point of a gun. I wonder what you would think if they were coming for

your children for something the state or " society " deemed was in your

children's best interest even though you thought otherwise.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

June 4, 2008

>>Carolyn Jessop was 35 years old when she 'escaped'. There are plenty of

non-FLDS women in abusive relationships. That's an entirely separate issue

than government interference in families. <<

Yes, but you said, " They willingly bear children in order to further their

religious progression. " and " No FLDS girl would ever tell you she's in the

hands of a molestor or rapist. " My point is that they are NOT willing. At

least not all of them are willing. Some, at least, are FORCED into their

situations. And, according to the quote from Elissa Wall's book, " The end

result of the union was a nightmare of rape and abuse that Elissa suffered

at the hands of her Church-appointed husband and in the name of God. "

I do believe that the government should step in, even if it interferes with

a religion, when children are being sacrificed, in one way or another, to

further said religion.

June 4, 2008

,

You're right. I should have added, the word, " most " ..... " most willingly

bear children..... " . There was no evidence justifying the seizure of over

400 children, the majority of which were ripped away from mothers, families

and homes. The terror inflicted on those children, by illegal government

seizures, will last their entire life. Good job, Texas.

Sharon

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:35 PM, <sabrina.moeti@...> wrote:

> >>Carolyn Jessop was 35 years old when she 'escaped'. There are plenty

> of

> non-FLDS women in abusive relationships. That's an entirely separate issue

> than government interference in families. <<

>

> Yes, but you said, " They willingly bear children in order to further their

> religious progression. " and " No FLDS girl would ever tell you she's in the

> hands of a molestor or rapist. " My point is that they are NOT willing. At

> least not all of them are willing. Some, at least, are FORCED into their

> situations. And, according to the quote from Elissa Wall's book, " The end

> result of the union was a nightmare of rape and abuse that Elissa suffered

> at the hands of her Church-appointed husband and in the name of God. "

>

> I do believe that the government should step in, even if it interferes with

> a religion, when children are being sacrificed, in one way or another, to

> further said religion.

>

June 4, 2008

On 6/4/08, Sharon son <skericson@...> wrote:

> Do you have any proof as to them being " forced " or is this your emotional

> reaction? And they're not married, btw. They willingly bear children in

> order to further their religious progression. Their god has sex in heaven

> creating spirit babies that are in need of human bodies. When you learn

> about the religious beliefs of this group, you will learn there are no

> rapes, no " victims " but only those dedicated to their god, receiving

> blessings for their works. No FLDS girl would ever tell you she's in the

> hands of a molestor or rapist. Those charges are unfounded.

Hmm, so how many gods are there in heaven?

Chris

June 4, 2008