Re: intermittent fasting was: calories in/out

[Guest guest]

,

> Connie and if someone eats a big carby meal at dinner and then

> eats a big carby breakfast in the morning, I would guess most of the

> excess carbs from the dinner would be stored as fat, and the next day,

> carbs from the breakfast would preferentially be burned for energy -

> leaving the accumulated fat in storage. It might be a different story

> if that person did a lot of exercise the next morning before eating

> any food. Then maybe the body would draw on it's fat stores to burn

> the energy that was banked as fat and glycogen the night before.

You're really distoring the issue here. The question is whether it is

worse to eat carbs at night than in the morning. Obviously you will

store more fat if you eat something at night AND in the morning than

if you just eat it in the morning because you are eating more of it.

> Somehow, it seems to me that once the body has stored fat it's awfully

> difficult to get it to let go of that fat

On the contrary, the body is almost constantly burning fat and

regularly burns stored fat, especially during an overnight fast. So I

think it's pretty easy to burn fat as long as you aren't shutting

fat-burning down by eating enough food to meet all your energy needs,

especially carbs.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> > Somehow, it seems to me that once the body has stored fat it's

> > awfully difficult to get it to let go of that fat

>

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> On the contrary, the body is almost constantly burning fat and

> regularly burns stored fat, especially during an overnight fast. So

> I think it's pretty easy to burn fat as long as you aren't shutting

> fat-burning down by eating enough food to meet all your energy

> needs, especially carbs.

My guess is that eating a lot of carbs in the evening may be fine for

someone who is not overweight, but that overweight people who are not

diabetic, might tend to be hypoglycemic with excess hunger the next

day. And in people who are also addicted to sweets this may lead to

indulging in sweets for breakfast - more high carbs. And so starts

the vicious circle leading to weight gain. I would not encourage

people who are overweight to eat a large high-carb meal for dinner.

I suspect people who are overweight often have messed up

leptin/insulin signaling that leads to inappropriate hunger and/or

satiation and that high-carb foods tend to exacerbate this problem.

But it may be even worse for these people to consume large high-carb

meals in the evening.

Most people are not counting calories out and in

[Guest guest]

--- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Yeah, amazing how much food dominates our lives.

, yes I'm sitting here hungry, trying to see if I can manage to

skip dinner tonight for the first time. I waited later than usual for

my walk because it always takes my hunger away and it did for a while.

I may at least have a bit of kefir before I go to bed so I won't have

to fall asleep hungry, if the hunger doesn't go away before then.

> When you experiment with skipping breakfast you might want to start

> by eating a really big meal the night before.

Actually, over the last several months, several times I have delayed

breakfast until my normal lunch time and skipped lunch on the

weekends. Since it's so hot now in the afternoons here, I prefer to

walk and jog in the morning and then add in a little yard work. That

helps work against the hunger.

> People still eat bowls of cereal? And wheat germ? <g>

Cereal is perhaps my last remaining food vice

I do eat organic heritage grain cereals that are fairly low in sugar

and I only have one bowl with raw milk and wheat germ. The wheat germ

is a nutrient dense food and compliments the milk for nutrients. I

only eat about an ounce per day, however, since it is fairly high in

PUFA. I also get the Fearn nitrogen-flushed wheat germ because it

tastes fresh and not rancid like most other wheat germ brands I have

tried. In addition, I have a smoothie made with raw milk, raw cream,

3 raw egg yolks, and a heaping tbsp of raw organic cocoa powder. The

cocoa powder also provides some extra minerals.

> By the way, do you do any kind of weight bearing exercise, or does

> working out for you consist largely of walking?

My main weight bearing exercise is yard work where I'm holding and

swinging a weed whacker or hedge trimmer or rake or broom. Sweeping

driveway-sidewalk-patio areas with a broom after mowing gets me more

sweaty than the pushing the lawn-mower. Live oak leaves are really

tough to sweep when the hard glossy side is face up on the concrete

[Guest guest]

People on the Fast-5 group report increased cravings after eating lots of

carbs at

their evening meal. This then makes it harder for them to fast the next day

until dinner

time. I was eating low-carb when I started IF so I don't have any personal

experience with

this. When I did eat more carbs, it led to wanting more and more of them so I

agree with

here.

> > On the contrary, the body is almost constantly burning fat and

> > regularly burns stored fat, especially during an overnight fast. So

> > I think it's pretty easy to burn fat as long as you aren't shutting

> > fat-burning down by eating enough food to meet all your energy

> > needs, especially carbs.

>

>

>

> My guess is that eating a lot of carbs in the evening may be fine for

> someone who is not overweight, but that overweight people who are not

> diabetic, might tend to be hypoglycemic with excess hunger the next

> day. And in people who are also addicted to sweets this may lead to

> indulging in sweets for breakfast - more high carbs. And so starts

> the vicious circle leading to weight gain. I would not encourage

> people who are overweight to eat a large high-carb meal for dinner.

>

> I suspect people who are overweight often have messed up

> leptin/insulin signaling that leads to inappropriate hunger and/or

> satiation and that high-carb foods tend to exacerbate this problem.

> But it may be even worse for these people to consume large high-carb

> meals in the evening.

>

> Most people are not counting calories out and in

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 6/28/08, carolyn_graff <zgraff@...> wrote:

> People on the Fast-5 group report increased cravings after eating lots

> of carbs at

> their evening meal. This then makes it harder for them to fast the next day

> until dinner

> time. I was eating low-carb when I started IF so I don't have any personal

> experience with

> this. When I did eat more carbs, it led to wanting more and more of them so

> I agree with

> here.

Well this again is not quite relevant to the original question, which

was whether it is better to eat carbs in the morning or night. If

they are only eating dinner, then more carbs at dinner means more

total carbs, which is not what we were -- at least not what I was --

talking about.

I don't know what " lots and lots " means, but maybe that's just too

much. The amount of carbs you would want to eat would be whatever

would replete your glycogen stores. Unless you have reactive

hypoglycemia because your insulin patterns are still messed up, or you

have trouble with glycogen breakdown due to B6 or some other

deficiency, I would think you'd be able to fast longer if you have

full glycogen stores.

Whatever fills them, of course, depends on how active you are.

Fasting depletes liver glycogen and physical activity depletes muscle

glycogen. If you're very active, you're probably using a lot of

muscle glycogen. If not, you're probably barely touching it even if

you're fasting.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> Well this again is not quite relevant to the original question,

> which was whether it is better to eat carbs in the morning or night.

" better " is a relative thing. I agree that purely from a

calorie in/out perspective that it shouldn't make any difference

whether you have a large high-carb meal for breakfast or for dinner,

as long as you burn off the excess calories consistently.

Therein lies the problem however. Since most people don't count

calories and most people do have weight problems in the USA, eating a

large high-carb meal late in the day may set many people up for

worsening problems with cravings for carbs and eating too much. I

found this to be true for myself in the past.

Since we've also been discussing intermittent fasting for weight loss,

I'd be curious to know if it makes any difference how often you eat,

as long as the daily intake calories add up to what is burned - in

regards to satiation and eating the right amount of calories without

having to count calories. I suspect the answer to this question may

depend on weight status and perhaps metabolic status (adrenal/thyroid

status). People who are holding steady at an optimal weight

apparently are satiated when the right amount of food is eaten and

thus maintain a fairly constant weight. People who are gaining weight

apparently are not satiated properly.

In theory, from a weight maintenance perspective, it should not make a

difference whether you eat one meal a day or ten meals a day, as long

as the calories in/out balance. However, I wonder what effect that

has on the digestive system and how that might affect calories burned.

[Guest guest]

,

> In theory, from a weight maintenance perspective, it should not make a

> difference whether you eat one meal a day or ten meals a day, as long

> as the calories in/out balance. However, I wonder what effect that

> has on the digestive system and how that might affect calories burned.

I don't know about fasting per se, but Colpo has a referenced chapter

each on the two issues of whether to eat the largest meal at breakfast

or dinner and whether to eat carbs in the morning or evening. The

research shows that, overall, it makes no difference. However, a

minority of research suggests an advantage to eating the largest meal

at night. I don't recall whether he cited research showing the same

for carbs, but I think most of the chapter was on their sedating

effect, and the basic conclusion that you don't want to be sedated in

the daytime. Since his plan is low-carb, then eating relatively

" high-carb " at dinner does not actually mean eating a lot of carbs at

dinner; it's just a proportional thing.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In my experience, I find it is better to eat consistent meals throughout the

day to allow the pancreas to maximize enzyme production. Are there any

native groups that ate inconsistently in terms of protein/fat/carb at each

meal?

-Lana

[Guest guest]

--- Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> In my experience, I find it is better to eat consistent meals

> throughout the day to allow the pancreas to maximize enzyme

> production.

Lana, it does seem that fewer, but larger, meals might be more

challenging for proper enzyme production, but I'm not sure. I'm

guessing that two or three meals per day must likely have some healthy

native roots and may have some benefits for proper enzyme production.

> Are there any native groups that ate inconsistently in terms of

> protein/fat/carb at each meal?

I suspect there is a lot of variety among healthy native groups in

this regard, but I'm not sure on this one either.

So, have you had any unusual food cravings with your pregnancy?

Maybe fermented pickles with raw ice cream?

[Guest guest]

> On the contrary, the body is almost constantly burning fat and

> regularly burns stored fat, especially during an overnight fast. So

I

> think it's pretty easy to burn fat as long as you aren't shutting

> fat-burning down by eating enough food to meet all your energy needs,

> especially carbs.

>

> Chris

>

Chris

Do sugars in foods (sucrose, Fructose, lactose, maltose etc) play any

part, along with carbs for healthy fat-burning metabolism?

Thanks

-Dan.

[Guest guest]

,

> --- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

>> Yeah, amazing how much food dominates our lives.

>

> , yes I'm sitting here hungry, trying to see if I can manage to

> skip dinner tonight for the first time. I waited later than usual for

> my walk because it always takes my hunger away and it did for a while.

> I may at least have a bit of kefir before I go to bed so I won't have

> to fall asleep hungry, if the hunger doesn't go away before then.

It is also amazing how different and unique we are as individuals. Big

daytime meals slow me down, especially a big breakfast, although

having a big Saturday brunch can be fun as I can usually overcome the

inertia fairly easily since i am doing stuff that is fairly active

(like hiking, biking, playing ball, running errands, etc.) and not

heading off to work (at least not my main job)

The idea of skipping dinner, however, except maybe on Sundays, is

something I can barely contemplate. I look forward to my evening meal

as a way to relax, wind down, and simply take in the day. It is even

better when I eat with someone, especially now when the weather is so

nice and Seattle becomes a very magical place indeed, even in the

heart of the city.

>> By the way, do you do any kind of weight bearing exercise, or does

>> working out for you consist largely of walking?

>

> My main weight bearing exercise is yard work where I'm holding and

> swinging a weed whacker or hedge trimmer or rake or broom. Sweeping

> driveway-sidewalk-patio areas with a broom after mowing gets me more

> sweaty than the pushing the lawn-mower. Live oak leaves are really

> tough to sweep when the hard glossy side is face up on the concrete

If you really are going to attempt the 16/8 style of intermittent

fasting, and want to knock off those last 20 pounds in a relatively

short time in the process, I would highly suggest some kind of weight

bearing exercise.

Perhaps getting into kettlebells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzo3LOwrShU & NR=1

or clubbells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj2KhqTBrd8 & feature=related

or if you prefer something similar to typical weights at the gym using

just a fraction of the space, try power blocks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN2n3lhweFw

All of which can provide very intense workouts in the privacy of your

own home and should have a pretty noticeable impact on weight and body

composition.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

> People on the Fast-5 group report increased cravings after eating lots

> of carbs at

> their evening meal. This then makes it harder for them to fast the next day

> until dinner

> time. I was eating low-carb when I started IF so I don't have any personal

> experience with

> this. When I did eat more carbs, it led to wanting more and more of them so

> I agree with

> here.

My experience was exactly the opposite. The WD/Fast 5 approach allowed

me to increase carbs **substantially**, often 200 grams or more,

without at all affecting my ability to fast the next day.

My experience with the various " reports " of this style of intermittent

fasting, when you actually get some specifics and not just general

impressions, is that most people were not eating enough calories to

make it through the next day. Also, in the case of the Warrior Diet,

it is a moot point, since you are allowed to eat during the fasting

phase.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

,

I wonder if you're one of those people that are slowed down by

carbs? Many breakfast foods are high-carb; they slow me down too but

if I have a big breakfast that is some fruit and mostly meat/eggs I

feel great. Oddly, I used to think fat slowed me down but now I

believe fat is energizing and it was the carbs all along tha were the

energy drainers.

> >> Yeah, amazing how much food dominates our lives.

> >

> > , yes I'm sitting here hungry, trying to see if I can

manage to

> > skip dinner tonight for the first time. I waited later than usual

for

> > my walk because it always takes my hunger away and it did for a

while.

> > I may at least have a bit of kefir before I go to bed so I won't

have

> > to fall asleep hungry, if the hunger doesn't go away before then.

>

> It is also amazing how different and unique we are as individuals.

Big

> daytime meals slow me down, especially a big breakfast, although

> having a big Saturday brunch can be fun as I can usually overcome

the

> inertia fairly easily since i am doing stuff that is fairly active

> (like hiking, biking, playing ball, running errands, etc.) and not

> heading off to work (at least not my main job)

>

> The idea of skipping dinner, however, except maybe on Sundays, is

> something I can barely contemplate. I look forward to my evening

meal

> as a way to relax, wind down, and simply take in the day. It is even

> better when I eat with someone, especially now when the weather is

so

> nice and Seattle becomes a very magical place indeed, even in the

> heart of the city.

>

> >> By the way, do you do any kind of weight bearing exercise, or

does

> >> working out for you consist largely of walking?

> >

> > My main weight bearing exercise is yard work where I'm holding and

> > swinging a weed whacker or hedge trimmer or rake or broom.

Sweeping

> > driveway-sidewalk-patio areas with a broom after mowing gets me

more

> > sweaty than the pushing the lawn-mower. Live oak leaves are really

> > tough to sweep when the hard glossy side is face up on the

concrete

>

> If you really are going to attempt the 16/8 style of intermittent

> fasting, and want to knock off those last 20 pounds in a relatively

> short time in the process, I would highly suggest some kind of

weight

> bearing exercise.

>

> Perhaps getting into kettlebells:

>

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzo3LOwrShU & NR=1

>

> or clubbells:

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj2KhqTBrd8 & feature=related

>

> or if you prefer something similar to typical weights at the gym

using

> just a fraction of the space, try power blocks:

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN2n3lhweFw

>

> All of which can provide very intense workouts in the privacy of

your

> own home and should have a pretty noticeable impact on weight and

body

> composition.

>

>

> --

> There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

> appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian

regime.

> I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA

had

> rifled through my baggage.

>

> - Tabarrok

>

[Guest guest]

--- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> It is also amazing how different and unique we are as individuals.

> Big daytime meals slow me down, especially a big breakfast, although

> having a big Saturday brunch can be fun as I can usually overcome

> the inertia fairly easily since i am doing stuff that is fairly

> active (like hiking, biking, playing ball, running errands, etc.)

> and not heading off to work (at least not my main job)

,

I go to work early to a sedentary office job, so five days a week

eating a large breakfast helps to keep me from needing a mid-morning

snack. On weekends in warmer weather, I delay my breakfast several

hours. I prefer to walk and jog on an empty stomach in the morning,

which I have time to do on the weekends. My stamina is always better

this way. In winter it's too cold most mornings here to motivate me

to walk/jog early. In summer, mornings are preferable because they

are cool compared to the hot afternoon when I normally walk/jog after

work.

> The idea of skipping dinner, however, except maybe on Sundays, is

> something I can barely contemplate. I look forward to my evening

> meal as a way to relax, wind down, and simply take in the day. It is

> even better when I eat with someone, especially now when the weather

> is so nice and Seattle becomes a very magical place indeed, even in

> the heart of the city.

I skipped dinner for the second time last night. I was hungry for a

couple of hours around the time I normally eat, but by bed time I was

no longer hungry. I'm not sure what will happen in regards to hunger

if I skip dinner on workdays for 12/8 but on weekends shift the 8

eating hours to 11 am to 7 pm and have a larger dinner. That's the

schedule that would work best for me in the warmer half of the year.

Shifting the eating schedule once a week might not allow the body to

settle into a rhythm - but I'm not sure if that's good or bad in

regards to hunger. I guess I'll find out.

> If you really are going to attempt the 16/8 style of intermittent

> fasting, and want to knock off those last 20 pounds in a relatively

> short time in the process, I would highly suggest some kind of

> weight bearing exercise.

I guess I should trim the hedge more often It takes about an hour

of swinging the hedge trimmer and that's a good workout. We have a

long hedge row that's taller than I am and even with a step ladder, I

have to hold the trimmer at about shoulder height to trim the top of

the hedge. It also takes about half an hour to sweep up after mowing.

It's more work than it looks, judging by how sweaty I get. Maybe

that's why blowers have become so popular. I prefer sweeping though.

[Guest guest]

Looks pretty good although I don't think of 44 as being " senior "

http://www.senior-exercise-central.com/-in-Austria.html

--

In the religious perspective, none of us " owns " his own body. Rather,

we are the stewards of them, and God is the ultimate " owner " of each

of us. But this concerns only the relation between man and Deity. As

far as the relationship between man and man, however, the secular

statement that we own our own bodies has an entirely different

meaning. It refers to the claim that we each have free will; that no

one person may take it upon himself to enslave another, even for the

latter's " own good. " - Walter Block