Re: PUFA's

[Guest guest]

--- lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

> i am interested in learning more about PUFA's. can someone point me

> in the right direction? a basic explanation would even be helpful

> and foods where PUFA's are found.

, undesirable PUFA's are in most processed/packaged foods these

days and are commonly used in place of incorrectly maligned saturated

fats. If you avoid processed/packaged and restaurant foods, you will

likely avoid PUFA. Many people don't realize that mayonnaise and

salad dressings are high in omega-6 PUFA because of oils used in their

manufacture. Beware of any products with soybean oil, safflower oil,

corn oil, sunflower oil, and even the new darling canola oil. These

foods will have substantial amounts of often damaged omega-6 PUFA. If

you eat out, avoid all fried foods and dressings.

The only two essential fats that we need are both PUFA, omega-6 and

omega-3. But we only need small amounts and can get what we need from

animal and vegetable foods that are minimally processed.

I put together a table showing the percentage of polyunsaturated,

monounsaturated, and saturated fats in commonly used fats and oils:

http://stay-healthy-enjoy-life.blogspot.com/2007/10/selecting-fats-and-oils-for-\

health.html

Be sure and follow the underlined links to more information.

Here's a good article by Barry Groves, PhD nutritionist, about how

" Polyunsaturated oils increase cancer risk " :

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fats_and_cancer.html

And if you haven't read " The Skinny on Fats " , it's a classic:

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

HTH,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

thanks for this information. very helpful.

so if i am understanding correctly PUFA's are oxidized omega 3 and

omega 6 oils?

so should one avoid large quantities of nuts and seeds? what about if

they are purchased raw and then prepared according to NT method?

so i guess the corn chips are out, huh?

what about a good quality olive oil?

i guess i thought that if the the veggie/nut/seed oils were not

processed, that they were okay?

i thought i saw mentioned here somewhere that there are PUFA's in

lard? also in all pork? i thought lard was a good fat!

thanks,

lisa

>

> , undesirable PUFA's are in most processed/packaged foods these

> days and are commonly used in place of incorrectly maligned saturated

> fats. If you avoid processed/packaged and restaurant foods, you will

> likely avoid PUFA. Many people don't realize that mayonnaise and

> salad dressings are high in omega-6 PUFA because of oils used in their

> manufacture. Beware of any products with soybean oil, safflower oil,

> corn oil, sunflower oil, and even the new darling canola oil. These

> foods will have substantial amounts of often damaged omega-6 PUFA. If

> you eat out, avoid all fried foods and dressings.

>

> The only two essential fats that we need are both PUFA, omega-6 and

> omega-3. But we only need small amounts and can get what we need from

> animal and vegetable foods that are minimally processed.

>

> I put together a table showing the percentage of polyunsaturated,

> monounsaturated, and saturated fats in commonly used fats and oils:

>

http://stay-healthy-enjoy-life.blogspot.com/2007/10/selecting-fats-and-oils-for-\

health.html

> Be sure and follow the underlined links to more information.

>

> Here's a good article by Barry Groves, PhD nutritionist, about how

> " Polyunsaturated oils increase cancer risk " :

> http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fats_and_cancer.html

>

> And if you haven't read " The Skinny on Fats " , it's a classic:

> http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

>

> HTH,

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

> so if i am understanding correctly PUFA's are oxidized omega 3 and

> omega 6 oils?

PUFA stands for polyunsaturated fatty acid. All omega-6 and omega-3

fatty acids are PUFA. PUFA can be oxidized before you eat them, but

they also can oxidize within the body. Even when completely fresh,

they are very vulnerable to oxidation within the body, and this is the

major concern. Antioxidants can protect them -- and this appears to

be the main function of vitamin E.

They can also get converted into inflammatory byproducts. Omega-3

products are less inflammatory, and since omega-3 competes with

omega-6 for processing into these byproducts, omega-3 has an

anti-inflammatory effect in the context of a standard diet that is

rich in omega-6.

> so should one avoid large quantities of nuts and seeds? what about if

> they are purchased raw and then prepared according to NT method?

The processing helps with enzyme inhibitors and phytates but does not

affect the PUFA. So one should consume these foods in moderation.

> so i guess the corn chips are out, huh?

Corn chips usually have added high-PUFA oils in addition to the PUFA

in the corn, and then are fried, generating a variety of compounds

that are probably not very good for you.

> what about a good quality olive oil?

Olive oil is moderate in PUFA. I would feel free to use small amounts

of it, but would not make it the main fat in the diet.

> i guess i thought that if the the veggie/nut/seed oils were not

> processed, that they were okay?

I don't know what you mean by processed, since you can't get an oil

out of any of these foods without some degree of processing. If you

mean unrefined and virgin as opposed to refined, bleached and

deodorized, etc, then unrefined is much better, but they are still

high in PUFA and fresh PUFA increases the vulnerability to oxidative

stress.

> i thought i saw mentioned here somewhere that there are PUFA's in

> lard? also in all pork? i thought lard was a good fat!

Lard is similar ot olive oil in having a moderate amount of PUFA. I

would again feel free to use it in small amounts but would not make it

the main fat in the diet personally.

Chris

[Guest guest]

oh, duh! i didn't know they were polyunsaturated fatty acids! I hadn't

been on the list in a while, and i thought, gee, i really missed

something here w/ these PUFA's!

okay, got it now. but good to know that even unrefined PUFA oils such

as olive oil/lard and raw nuts/seeds--or minimally processed PUFA's

should be eaten in moderation and not as main fat. i guess i thought

lard was primarily a saturated fat. also that olive oil is mainly

monounsaturated. i guess both have PUFA's, though, too.

anyhow, thanks for clearing things up!

lisa

>

> ,

>

> > so if i am understanding correctly PUFA's are oxidized omega 3 and

> > omega 6 oils?

>

> PUFA stands for polyunsaturated fatty acid. All omega-6 and omega-3

> fatty acids are PUFA. PUFA can be oxidized before you eat them, but

> they also can oxidize within the body. Even when completely fresh,

> they are very vulnerable to oxidation within the body, and this is the

> major concern. Antioxidants can protect them -- and this appears to

> be the main function of vitamin E.

>

> They can also get converted into inflammatory byproducts. Omega-3

> products are less inflammatory, and since omega-3 competes with

> omega-6 for processing into these byproducts, omega-3 has an

> anti-inflammatory effect in the context of a standard diet that is

> rich in omega-6.

>

> > so should one avoid large quantities of nuts and seeds? what about if

> > they are purchased raw and then prepared according to NT method?

>

> The processing helps with enzyme inhibitors and phytates but does not

> affect the PUFA. So one should consume these foods in moderation.

>

> > so i guess the corn chips are out, huh?

>

> Corn chips usually have added high-PUFA oils in addition to the PUFA

> in the corn, and then are fried, generating a variety of compounds

> that are probably not very good for you.

>

> > what about a good quality olive oil?

>

> Olive oil is moderate in PUFA. I would feel free to use small amounts

> of it, but would not make it the main fat in the diet.

>

> > i guess i thought that if the the veggie/nut/seed oils were not

> > processed, that they were okay?

>

> I don't know what you mean by processed, since you can't get an oil

> out of any of these foods without some degree of processing. If you

> mean unrefined and virgin as opposed to refined, bleached and

> deodorized, etc, then unrefined is much better, but they are still

> high in PUFA and fresh PUFA increases the vulnerability to oxidative

> stress.

>

> > i thought i saw mentioned here somewhere that there are PUFA's in

> > lard? also in all pork? i thought lard was a good fat!

>

> Lard is similar ot olive oil in having a moderate amount of PUFA. I

> would again feel free to use it in small amounts but would not make it

> the main fat in the diet personally.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

,

> okay, got it now. but good to know that even unrefined PUFA oils such

> as olive oil/lard and raw nuts/seeds--or minimally processed PUFA's

> should be eaten in moderation and not as main fat. i guess i thought

> lard was primarily a saturated fat. also that olive oil is mainly

> monounsaturated. i guess both have PUFA's, though, too.

Lard is highly saturated but actually has a bit more MUFA than SFA.

Olive oil and lard are both around 10% PUFA typically, although both

of them can vary, especially lard which depends on the diet of the

animal -- lard from the tropics where the pigs eat coconut is

apparently pretty saturated and lower in PUFA.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Do you agree with nutritionists who think that we should consume extra E

to help with the lipid peroxidation question? Or does the E only keep

the oil from going off in the bottle, and not the body?

Desh

[Guest guest]

Desh,

> Do you agree with nutritionists who think that we should consume extra E

> to help with the lipid peroxidation question? Or does the E only keep

> the oil from going off in the bottle, and not the body?

The E protects in vivo, as do other antioxidants, including preformed

vitamin A (which appears to be more effective than E from a few

studies). However, although it is understudied, I think it would be

rather foolish to eat lots of PUFA and expect proportionately extra

vitamin E to be completely protective.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Desh,

> Do you agree with nutritionists who think that we should consume extra E

> to help with the lipid peroxidation question? Or does the E only keep

> the oil from going off in the bottle, and not the body?

I should have added an explanation to my last note.

Vitamin E is known as a chain-breaking antioxidant. It's primary

function is to stop PUFA-peroxyl radicals from turning other PUFAs

into more PUFA peroxyl radicals. To do this, it reduces the peroxyl

radical to a lipid peroxide. But, it can't get rid of the lipid

peroxide. The lipid peroxide can then get cleaved by phospholipase

A2, which is the enzyme that normally would be responsible for freeing

undamaged PUFA to make eicosanoids, and then the freed lipid peroxide

can wreak havoc on the cellular architecture, damaging everything

else.

In the PUFA, there are sites of carbon-carbon double bonds. Each

carbon is bound to a hydrogen like this:

C-H

However, this hydrogen is easily stolen, to look like this:

C-

with an unpaired electron hanging around (ordinarily the unpaired

electron is written with a dot, but I'm using the hyphen both for

bonds and for unpaired electrons).

Oxygen can come in and generate a peroxyl radical:

C-O-O-

still with an unpaired electron hanging around.

Now, this peroxyl radical has two choices: it can interact with

vitamin E, or it can interact with other PUFA. Vitamin E is 1000

times more likely to react with it if it is available, which makes E

itself become a free radical, but E tends to slip out of the membrane

when this happens and get regenerated by other antioxidants rather

than harming other PUFA. Glutathione can reduce the peroxide (-OOH)

group on the PUFA to a hydroxyl group (-OH), which is much less

dangerous, but it is still a damaged fatty acid rather than a normal

PUFA.

So, if E reduces the peroxyl radical to a peroxide, it looks like this:

C-O-O-H + E-

However, if E does not reduce it, it will interact with other PUFA, so

that the original peroxyl radical is reduced:

C-O-O-H

but the other PUFA has its hydrogen stolen and looks like this:

C-

and then incorporates oxygen all over again:

C-O-O-

and then it does the same to another PUFA, and you get one more

peroxide and one more peroxyl radical, and then to another PUFA, and

another one, and so on.

So this is the " chain " that vitamin E breaks.

BUT... when it is all said and done, vitamin E has broken the chain by

generating a lipid peroxide:

C-O-O-H

and, although this will not damage other PUFA in the membrane, when it

gets cleaved into the cytosol, it interacts with all kinds of things

and recks everything in its path.

So what you need is gluathione to come along and make that COOH into a

COH. As far as I know that is the best you can do, which is a lot

better than having the peroxides hanging around, but is still a

damaged fatty acid.

So, vitamin E is NOT sufficient to protect PUFA from harming the cell,

and there is essentially no way to maintain a high PUFA load and

minimize damage to the membrane.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris

What happens when you take megadose on Vit E & PUFA together.. like

in the #1 Vitamin E food- Wheat Germ Oil. Does it matter(better) if

the PUFA is Expeller-pressed, in this case?

(it is recommended highly by Sally Fallon, for the Vitamin E sake)

Thanks

-Dan.

>

> Desh,

>

> > Do you agree with nutritionists who think that we should consume

extra E

> > to help with the lipid peroxidation question? Or does the E only

keep

> > the oil from going off in the bottle, and not the body?

>

> I should have added an explanation to my last note.

>

> Vitamin E is known as a chain-breaking antioxidant. It's primary

> function is to stop PUFA-peroxyl radicals from turning other PUFAs

> into more PUFA peroxyl radicals. To do this, it reduces the peroxyl

> radical to a lipid peroxide. But, it can't get rid of the lipid

> peroxide. The lipid peroxide can then get cleaved by phospholipase

> A2, which is the enzyme that normally would be responsible for

freeing

> undamaged PUFA to make eicosanoids, and then the freed lipid

peroxide

> can wreak havoc on the cellular architecture, damaging everything

> else.

>

> In the PUFA, there are sites of carbon-carbon double bonds. Each

> carbon is bound to a hydrogen like this:

>

> C-H

>

> However, this hydrogen is easily stolen, to look like this:

>

> C-

>

>

> with an unpaired electron hanging around (ordinarily the unpaired

> electron is written with a dot, but I'm using the hyphen both for

> bonds and for unpaired electrons).

>

> Oxygen can come in and generate a peroxyl radical:

>

> C-O-O-

>

> still with an unpaired electron hanging around.

>

> Now, this peroxyl radical has two choices: it can interact with

> vitamin E, or it can interact with other PUFA. Vitamin E is 1000

> times more likely to react with it if it is available, which makes E

> itself become a free radical, but E tends to slip out of the

membrane

> when this happens and get regenerated by other antioxidants rather

> than harming other PUFA. Glutathione can reduce the peroxide (-OOH)

> group on the PUFA to a hydroxyl group (-OH), which is much less

> dangerous, but it is still a damaged fatty acid rather than a normal

> PUFA.

>

> So, if E reduces the peroxyl radical to a peroxide, it looks like

this:

>

> C-O-O-H + E-

>

> However, if E does not reduce it, it will interact with other PUFA,

so

> that the original peroxyl radical is reduced:

>

> C-O-O-H

>

> but the other PUFA has its hydrogen stolen and looks like this:

>

> C-

>

> and then incorporates oxygen all over again:

>

> C-O-O-

>

> and then it does the same to another PUFA, and you get one more

> peroxide and one more peroxyl radical, and then to another PUFA, and

> another one, and so on.

>

> So this is the " chain " that vitamin E breaks.

>

> BUT... when it is all said and done, vitamin E has broken the chain

by

> generating a lipid peroxide:

>

> C-O-O-H

>

> and, although this will not damage other PUFA in the membrane, when

it

> gets cleaved into the cytosol, it interacts with all kinds of things

> and recks everything in its path.

>

> So what you need is gluathione to come along and make that COOH

into a

> COH. As far as I know that is the best you can do, which is a lot

> better than having the peroxides hanging around, but is still a

> damaged fatty acid.

>

> So, vitamin E is NOT sufficient to protect PUFA from harming the

cell,

> and there is essentially no way to maintain a high PUFA load and

> minimize damage to the membrane.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dan,

> What happens when you take megadose on Vit E & PUFA together.. like

> in the #1 Vitamin E food- Wheat Germ Oil. Does it matter(better) if

> the PUFA is Expeller-pressed, in this case?

I think megadosing wheat germ oil is a very bad idea. Perhaps vitamin

E extracted from WGO, but not WGO itself.

What happens when you have lots of PUFA and lots of vitamin E is that

you have an enormous amount of opportunity to create peroxyl radicals

from the PUFA. You have lots of E to stop each molecule from

initiating a chain reaction, and that E will generate lipid peroxides

from the peroxyl radicals. You'd be way worse off if you had the PUFA

without the vitamin E, but you still get lipid peroxides and they can

be cleaved and cause damage to DNA and proteins and other parts of the

cell and generally wreak havoc.

Palm oil, in my opinion, is a better source of vitamin E because it is

much lower in PUFA.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Interesting. I had been meaning to reply to the hypothetical situation

thread, because we are poor and often in that situation. One of the

things we do is liver support (according to our wallet): liver, liver

tabs, b-complex, sublingual glutathione, milk thistle seed tincture, beet

powder, beet drinks.

Desh