Re: high dose Vit c and pregnancy

[Guest guest]

> eating programs I would never advise or take myself that level of

> Vitamin C. I have the feeling (yes, its just my feeling) that it

> would contribute to miscariages. A person would never consume that

There are websites that give you instructions on how to induce your own

early abortion at home around the time of a missed period, and the first

thing they all advise is high doses of Vitamin C several days in a row. The

4g recommendation is just below the lowest dosage recommended to induce

abortion. I'd be wary of it in the first trimester.

KerryAnn

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

" I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

High doses of vitamin C in the first trimester may cause miscarriage

according to some sources. The second and third trimester they

shouldn't, and if you google 'Klenner ascorbic babies', you can find

the neat article where Dr. Klenner gave high doses of vitamin C to

pregnant mothers and they all had easy deliveries, happy babies and no

need for epistiotomies. Mothers bounced back after short, easy

childbirths to take their smiley babies home. It really made me wish

I'd discovered that before giving birth!

>

> I have no concrete data on this but as someone who has 8 children and

> has helped numerous friends plan healthy pregnancy supplement and

> eating programs I would never advise or take myself that level of

> Vitamin C. I have the feeling (yes, its just my feeling) that it

> would contribute to miscariages. A person would never consume that

> amount of vitamin c even on a super healthy diet. The same for the

> folic acid.

> Blessings, Pamela

>

[Guest guest]

I did wonder about the high doses of vitamin C and miscarriages. It's

hard to know what the truth is when some people use it to induce

abortions and others claim it made their pregnancies and labors so

much better. It seems like one side or the other is either lying, or

there's something more to the puzzle.

[Guest guest]

On 2/11/08, penciloid <hoppythetoad@...> wrote:

> I did wonder about the high doses of vitamin C and miscarriages. It's

> hard to know what the truth is when some people use it to induce

> abortions and others claim it made their pregnancies and labors so

> much better. It seems like one side or the other is either lying, or

> there's something more to the puzzle.

I don't know how good the evidence is for either side, but if it DOES

effectively induce miscarriages in the first trimester, I think it is

crazy to use similar doses in the second and third trimesters without

*very* rigorous evidence of safety.

The amount is obviously supraphysiological. It is a pharmacologic

dose and not something that can be reconciled to the normal

physiological function as an enzyme cofactor. If the benefits are

indeed from its enzymatic activity, then much smaller doses on the

order of 500 mg/day in divided doses should be more than enough to

maximize activity.

If they are instead from antioxidant activity, then such a high need

for C would seem to indicate that it's filling the role of something

else. So why not consider whether other antioxidant nutrients -- such

as Mg and raw protein (and thyroid health) for glutathione, selenium

for glutathione peroxidase, copper and zinc for superoxide dismutase,

heme iron for catalase, and manganese for mitochondrial superoxide

dismustase -- are in maximal supply before megadosing one link in the

chain?

Chris

[Guest guest]

> I don't know how good the evidence is for either side, but if it DOES

> effectively induce miscarriages in the first trimester, I think it is

> crazy to use similar doses in the second and third trimesters without

> *very* rigorous evidence of safety.

There is only a very short period where it is an issue, and it's assumed the

function is by interfering with normal progesterone production in early

pregnancy. Progesterone normally doubles every 2-3 days in early pregnancy.

I'd feel comfortable on moderate (2 or 3g a day) dosages in the second and

third trimester, but I would avoid it during the first, especially if you're

prone to miscarriage.

KerryAnn

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

" I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

It sounds to me like you are trying to refute the effectiveness of

high dose vitamin C based on published scientific evidence rather

than personal experience (lol - I know you've never given birth,

unless I'm very wrong about your gender!). Vitamin C does a few

things that are beneficial. Granted with high doses a lot of it is

passed along through, but it does contribute to the cellulase that

allows the cells to come together in a strong, elastic way (hence the

low need for epistiomoties), also it is a strong detoxer. If you've

ever tried to take vitamin C to bowel tolerance during a cold, you'd

see what I mean - 500 mg does absolutely nothing, but if you approach

your bowel tolerance, you start to feel much much better - no more

fever, chills, aches, fatigue. It is very obviously dose-dependant

and the higher amounts (higher than is naturally possible from foods

r to be made by sick animals - to sceptics) cause miraculous-seeming

results with no side effects (other than the diarrhea if you take too

much).

Really, have you ever tried high doses of vitamin C on yourself? Or

is your source the same as those who warn us of not eating too many

saturated fats?

> > I did wonder about the high doses of vitamin C and miscarriages.

It's

> > hard to know what the truth is when some people use it to induce

> > abortions and others claim it made their pregnancies and labors so

> > much better. It seems like one side or the other is either lying,

or

> > there's something more to the puzzle.

>

> I don't know how good the evidence is for either side, but if it

DOES

> effectively induce miscarriages in the first trimester, I think it

is

> crazy to use similar doses in the second and third trimesters

without

> *very* rigorous evidence of safety.

>

> The amount is obviously supraphysiological. It is a pharmacologic

> dose and not something that can be reconciled to the normal

> physiological function as an enzyme cofactor. If the benefits are

> indeed from its enzymatic activity, then much smaller doses on the

> order of 500 mg/day in divided doses should be more than enough to

> maximize activity.

>

> If they are instead from antioxidant activity, then such a high need

> for C would seem to indicate that it's filling the role of something

> else. So why not consider whether other antioxidant nutrients --

such

> as Mg and raw protein (and thyroid health) for glutathione, selenium

> for glutathione peroxidase, copper and zinc for superoxide

dismutase,

> heme iron for catalase, and manganese for mitochondrial superoxide

> dismustase -- are in maximal supply before megadosing one link in

the

> chain?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Renate,

> It sounds to me like you are trying to refute the effectiveness of

> high dose vitamin C based on published scientific evidence rather

> than personal experience (lol - I know you've never given birth,

> unless I'm very wrong about your gender!).

Well not only that, but I don't have any personal experience with how

much vitamin C is necessary to maximize enzyme activities either,

because I can't feel my enzymes, or how much is retained in my

tissues, because I can't feel it there.

>Vitamin C does a few

> things that are beneficial. Granted with high doses a lot of it is

> passed along through, but it does contribute to the cellulase that

> allows the cells to come together in a strong, elastic way (hence the

> low need for epistiomoties), also it is a strong detoxer.

I think what you mean is that it contributes to collagen formation.

Cellulase is an enzyme that breaks down cellulose and humans do not

have it. Although I'm sure the need for collagen formation can go up

quite a bit during pregnancy, it seems unlikely that it would go up

400-fold.

I don't know what the role of vitamin C is in detoxification, but

detoxing is probably something you want to do before you get pregnant

rather than during it.

> If you've

> ever tried to take vitamin C to bowel tolerance during a cold, you'd

> see what I mean - 500 mg does absolutely nothing, but if you approach

> your bowel tolerance, you start to feel much much better - no more

> fever, chills, aches, fatigue.

Right, but the vitamin C requirement goes up dramatically when you

have a cold. Also, there is little risk of megadosing C for the

duration of a cold because it is so short. I usually take 5-8 grams

of vitamin C per day when I get sick, along with 50-100 mg of zinc,

200-400 mcg selenium, and a high dose of CLO on the first day. But

when I do that I am rarely sick for more than a day or two.

Furthermore, I don't have a developing, vulnerable fetus I need to

protect, so there is much less risk for that reason, as well as the

fact that I'm taking high doses for a day or a few days instead of

nine months.

> It is very obviously dose-dependant

> and the higher amounts (higher than is naturally possible from foods

> r to be made by sick animals - to sceptics) cause miraculous-seeming

> results with no side effects (other than the diarrhea if you take too

> much).

It also gets metabolized to oxalate. Does oxalate cross the placenta?

Does it harm the fetus? I don't know. Another reason I'd be more

comfortable experimenting wtih megadosing C without a growing fetus

inside me.

> Really, have you ever tried high doses of vitamin C on yourself? Or

> is your source the same as those who warn us of not eating too many

> saturated fats?

I haven't cited a single dietary recommendation, so I'm not even sure

what this means.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> It also gets metabolized to oxalate. >

could you explain what is meant by oxalate?

[Guest guest]

> > It sounds to me like you are trying to refute the effectiveness of

> > high dose vitamin C based on published scientific evidence rather

> > than personal experience (lol - I know you've never given birth,

> > unless I'm very wrong about your gender!).

>

> Well not only that, but I don't have any personal experience with how

> much vitamin C is necessary to maximize enzyme activities either,

> because I can't feel my enzymes, or how much is retained in my

> tissues, because I can't feel it there.

You're deflecting the question by making it solely a matter of

subjective " feeling " . If you observed that your cold disappeared after

one day instead of one week, for example, that would be convincing

anecdotal evidence based on personal experience.

> Right, but the vitamin C requirement goes up dramatically when you

> have a cold. Also, there is little risk of megadosing C for the

> duration of a cold because it is so short. I usually take 5-8 grams

> of vitamin C per day when I get sick, along with 50-100 mg of zinc,

> 200-400 mcg selenium, and a high dose of CLO on the first day. But

> when I do that I am rarely sick for more than a day or two.

> Furthermore, I don't have a developing, vulnerable fetus I need to

> protect, so there is much less risk for that reason, as well as the

> fact that I'm taking high doses for a day or a few days instead of

> nine months.

Nutrient needs across the board are generally higher for pregnant

women, so it's not entirely improbable that vitamin C needs could

increase significantly. I haven't researched much about Vitamin C in

pregnancy, but this paper implies that needs do go up:

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/rei/files/vitc_lpd.pdf

" The ovary has long been recognized as a site of ascorbic acid

accumulation and turnover. The highest concentrations are found in the

theca interna, granulosa, and luteal compartments (3, 4). The

concentration of ascorbic acid is reported to be much higher in human

follicular fluid than in blood serum. This suggests active transport

of ascorbic acid against the concentration gradient (5, 6) and that

ascorbic acid may play a role as an antioxidant vitamin during

folliculogenesis (7).

....

Infertility is a benchmark of ascorbate deficiency in the guinea pig,

a species that, like humans, requires a dietary source of ascorbate

(15). Ascorbic acid deficiency characteristically produces ovarian

atrophy and extensive follicular atresia and causes premature

resumption of meiosis (16, 17). More recently, ascorbic acid and other

antioxidants were shown to inhibit follicular apoptosis in cultured

rat follicles (18). "

On a quick search I only found two studies suggesting that vitamin C

is linked to miscarriage. Both are from the mid-1970s and one was in

Bulgarian. Here's the other one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/988001

Vitamins C and E in spontaneous abortion.

Vobecky JS, Vobecky J, Shapcott D, Cloutier D, Lafond R, Blanchard R.

A group of 50 spontaneously aborting women was compared with the same

number of pregnant women whose pregnancies terminated uneventfully.

Biochemical parameters were studied and particular attention was paid

to the vitamin C and E levels in both groups. A significantly higher

percentage of aborting women had individual values of serum

alpha-tocopherol above the 0.50 mg/100 ml normal limit. There was no

significant difference in overall frequency distribution of vitamin C

values in both groups. However, at the end of the first trimester the

mean values of vitamin C were significantly higher in the aborting

group. This could not be interpreted as an evidence of causal association.

As you can see, this study (or the abstract at least) provides

exceedingly weak support for the claim that high doses of ascorbate

increase the risk of miscarriage. Does anyone have any other citations

for this hypothesis?

Tom

[Guest guest]

,

> could you explain what is meant by oxalate?

Oxalate is a compound that can bind calcium. It can be deposited in

soft tissues if it binds calcium systemically, or prevent calcium

absorption if it does so in the intestines.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> > > It sounds to me like you are trying to refute the effectiveness of

> > > high dose vitamin C based on published scientific evidence rather

> > > than personal experience (lol - I know you've never given birth,

> > > unless I'm very wrong about your gender!).

> > Well not only that, but I don't have any personal experience with how

> > much vitamin C is necessary to maximize enzyme activities either,

> > because I can't feel my enzymes, or how much is retained in my

> > tissues, because I can't feel it there.

> You're deflecting the question by making it solely a matter of

> subjective " feeling " . If you observed that your cold disappeared after

> one day instead of one week, for example, that would be convincing

> anecdotal evidence based on personal experience.

I agree, but she followed this statement with arguments about

cellulase (collagen?) production and detoxification, which are things

that one cannot personally experience. That was my point.

> Nutrient needs across the board are generally higher for pregnant

> women, so it's not entirely improbable that vitamin C needs could

> increase significantly. I haven't researched much about Vitamin C in

> pregnancy, but this paper implies that needs do go up:

>

> http://sitemaker.umich.edu/rei/files/vitc_lpd.pdf

I don't doubt it -- at all -- but I doubt they go up 400-fold, because

most other needs by current estimates do not even double during

pregnancy.

[snip]

> As you can see, this study (or the abstract at least) provides

> exceedingly weak support for the claim that high doses of ascorbate

> increase the risk of miscarriage. Does anyone have any other citations

> for this hypothesis?

It also doesn't address the issue of high-dose supplementation (>4g).

Is the evidence that megadosing vitamin C is helpful better than the

evidence that it can induce abortions? I think that's the real

question.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- Tom Jeanne <tjeanne@...> wrote:

> On a quick search I only found two studies suggesting that vitamin C

> is linked to miscarriage. Both are from the mid-1970s and one was in

> Bulgarian. Here's the other one:

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/988001

> Vitamins C and E in spontaneous abortion.

> A group of 50 spontaneously aborting women was compared with the

> same number of pregnant women whose pregnancies terminated

> uneventfully. Biochemical parameters were studied and particular

> attention was paid to the vitamin C and E levels in both groups. A

> significantly higher percentage of aborting women had individual

> values of serum alpha-tocopherol above the 0.50 mg/100 ml normal

> limit.

Tom, that's interesting that they found an association of elevated

serum E levels with spontaneous abortion. I wonder if the high serum

E might be a marker for high omega-6 PUFA, since foods high in omega-6

are often high in E?

[Guest guest]

On 2/12/08, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> Tom, that's interesting that they found an association of elevated

> serum E levels with spontaneous abortion. I wonder if the high serum

> E might be a marker for high omega-6 PUFA, since foods high in omega-6

> are often high in E?

That could affect it, and also C status could, since C protects

against the destruction of E and may help regenerate it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> It also doesn't address the issue of high-dose supplementation (>4g).

> Is the evidence that megadosing vitamin C is helpful better than the

> evidence that it can induce abortions? I think that's the real

> question.

Good points, and I agree that that really is the question.

Dr. Klenner probably had the most clinical experience with vitamin C

in pregnant women and may have published about his experience. I'll

have to dig of some of his scientific papers. In the meantime, here's

a summary:

" Primary and lasting benefits in pregnancy.

Observations made on over 300 consecutive obstetrical cases using

supplemental ascorbic acid, by mouth, convinced me that failure to use

this agent in sufficient amounts in pregnancy borders on malpractice.

The lowest amount of ascorbic acid used was 4 grams and the highest

amount 15 grams each day. (Remember the rat-no stress manufactures

equivalent " C " up to 4 grams and with stress up to 15.2 grams).

Requirements were roughly 4 grams first trimester, 6 grams second

trimester and 10 grams third trimester. Approximately 20 percent

required 15 grams, each day, during last trimester. Eighty percent of

this series received a booster injection of 10 grams, intravenously,

on admission to the hospital. Hemoglobin levels were much easier to

maintain. Leg cramps were less than three percent and always was

associated with " getting out " of Vitamin C tablets. Striae gravidarum

was seldom encountered and when it was present there existed an

associated problem of too much eating and too little walking. The

capacity of the skin to resist the pressure of an expanding uterus

will also vary in different individuals. Labor was shorter and less

painful. There were no postpartum hemorrhages. The perineum was found

to be remarkably elastic and episiotomy was performed electively.

Healing was always by first intention and even after 15 and 20 years

following the last child the firmness of the perineum is found to be

similar to that of a primigravida in those who have continued their

daily supplemental vitamin C. No patient required catheterization. No

toxic manifestations were demonstrated in this series. There was no

cardiac stress even though 22 patients of the series had rheumatic

hearts. "

http://www.doctoryourself.com/klennerpaper.html

[Other sources say there were no miscarriages in these 300 women...see

http://www.doctoryourself.com/pregnancy_lactation.html]

Tom

[Guest guest]

Whoops! Yes, I think in my head I had collagen/elastin and for some

reason I got the word celluslase instead, which certainly wasn't what

I meant. I don't know where you get the " 400-fold " part from. ?? In

nine months, or 6 if you start the second trimester, a lot of skin

growth/healing could take place, replacing inelastic cells (or really

the glue that holds cells together is what we're talking about) with

a better form thanks to the catalyst of vitamin C. I'll have to read

up on ing's bit about Vitamin C restoring the elasticity of the

blood vessels to see if I can find a timetable on that one - how long

it would take.

Unless you're very deficient in magnesium, the oxalate shouldn't be a

problem. The opposition to vitamin C megadosing often brings that

out but I've never seen them cite a good documented example, more of

a " theoretically this is a risk " type of thing. Furthermore, in the

salt/c group nobody has ever mentioned getting this problem from the

vitamin C, and that's been hundreds of members all taking daily high

doses of C. Some people started with stones, but even those I don't

recall saying they were growing new ones or getting worse.

I agree people possibly shouldn't experiment on their bodies with a

fetus growing in them, but really, vitamin C has an excellent track

record of safety, even at high doses, and Klenner's patients have

gone before. I guess it's up to the woman whether she wants to try

this or not. It's all hit-or-miss, isn't it? How safe are the

ingredients in the pre-natal vitamins? In the water? In the food?

Is it safer to have some insurance against disease, or see how the

developing fetus does with the mother being very sick while pregnant?

As for the detoxing, the vitamin C doesn't stir up toxins so they

circulate more, like cilantro and a lot of other chelators, more it

works like chlorella - it mops up what is circulating to keep it from

doing any damage. I believe extended use of high doses of vitamin C

allow the body to gradually reduce the amount of stored toxins, tho

because as the systems of elimination get their load reduced the body

can start to address those stored toxins and gradually get them out

as well. If your liver, spleen, etc. are already overloaded, the

body obviously won't want to be tackling any toxins stored in fat,

tissue, etc. The literature on fasting is pretty plain about this

one - the body puts things off for later if it is overwhelmed.

Remove the load and it starts addressing some of those stored items

on it's " to-do list " .

>

> Hi Renate,

>

> > It sounds to me like you are trying to refute the effectiveness of

> > high dose vitamin C based on published scientific evidence rather

> > than personal experience (lol - I know you've never given birth,

> > unless I'm very wrong about your gender!).

>

> Well not only that, but I don't have any personal experience with

how

> much vitamin C is necessary to maximize enzyme activities either,

> because I can't feel my enzymes, or how much is retained in my

> tissues, because I can't feel it there.

>

> >Vitamin C does a few

> > things that are beneficial. Granted with high doses a lot of it

is

> > passed along through, but it does contribute to the cellulase that

> > allows the cells to come together in a strong, elastic way (hence

the

> > low need for epistiomoties), also it is a strong detoxer.

>

> I think what you mean is that it contributes to collagen formation.

> Cellulase is an enzyme that breaks down cellulose and humans do not

> have it. Although I'm sure the need for collagen formation can go

up

> quite a bit during pregnancy, it seems unlikely that it would go up

> 400-fold.

>

> I don't know what the role of vitamin C is in detoxification, but

> detoxing is probably something you want to do before you get

pregnant

> rather than during it.

>

> > If you've

> > ever tried to take vitamin C to bowel tolerance during a cold,

you'd

> > see what I mean - 500 mg does absolutely nothing, but if you

approach

> > your bowel tolerance, you start to feel much much better - no more

> > fever, chills, aches, fatigue.

>

> Right, but the vitamin C requirement goes up dramatically when you

> have a cold. Also, there is little risk of megadosing C for the

> duration of a cold because it is so short. I usually take 5-8 grams

> of vitamin C per day when I get sick, along with 50-100 mg of zinc,

> 200-400 mcg selenium, and a high dose of CLO on the first day. But

> when I do that I am rarely sick for more than a day or two.

> Furthermore, I don't have a developing, vulnerable fetus I need to

> protect, so there is much less risk for that reason, as well as the

> fact that I'm taking high doses for a day or a few days instead of

> nine months.

>

>

> > It is very obviously dose-dependant

> > and the higher amounts (higher than is naturally possible from

foods

> > r to be made by sick animals - to sceptics) cause miraculous-

seeming

> > results with no side effects (other than the diarrhea if you take

too

> > much).

>

> It also gets metabolized to oxalate. Does oxalate cross the

placenta?

> Does it harm the fetus? I don't know. Another reason I'd be more

> comfortable experimenting wtih megadosing C without a growing fetus

> inside me.

>

> > Really, have you ever tried high doses of vitamin C on yourself?

Or

> > is your source the same as those who warn us of not eating too

many

> > saturated fats?

>

> I haven't cited a single dietary recommendation, so I'm not even

sure

> what this means.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Renate,

> Whoops! Yes, I think in my head I had collagen/elastin and for some

> reason I got the word celluslase instead, which certainly wasn't what

> I meant. I don't know where you get the " 400-fold " part from. ??

Scurvy is generally thought to be the disorder of deficient collagen

synthesis, and it only requires 10 mg/day to prevent. No doubt a

growing fetus would be synthesizing a lot of everything, but it only

requires 2 mg/day to prevent scurvy in the infant, who has a very high

growth rate, so the increased C requirement for collagen synthesis is

probably somewhere much closer to that than to 4,000 mg for the fetus.

I'm sure there is a range between scurvy prevention and good health

for collagen synthesis, but it is likely to be a marginal increase

rather than an increase in several orders of magnitude.

> In

> nine months, or 6 if you start the second trimester, a lot of skin

> growth/healing could take place, replacing inelastic cells (or really

> the glue that holds cells together is what we're talking about) with

> a better form thanks to the catalyst of vitamin C.

We're not talking about glue that holds cells together, really, but

extracellular matrix that holds basic tissue frames together. So, for

example, your bones are mostly collagen, and your cartilage and skin

has a bit.

[snip]

> Unless you're very deficient in magnesium, the oxalate shouldn't be a

> problem.

I doubt that's true. Vitamin K2 is a more specific protector of

oxalate because it activates proteins whose purpose is to prevent salt

deposition. Magnesium seems to have an indirect effect solubilizing

calcium, but that is a couple layers of indirectness associated with

oxalate. The reality is we don't really know much about oxalate

production in response to C or its degree of importance with respect

to magnesium.

> The opposition to vitamin C megadosing often brings that

> out but I've never seen them cite a good documented example, more of

> a " theoretically this is a risk " type of thing.

And there isn't much data justifying megadosing during pregnancy

either, and what you are presenting is essentially a " theoretically

this could be useful " type of a thing.

With such a radical departure from our traditional/evolutionary diet,

on whom is the burden of proof?

> Furthermore, in the

> salt/c group nobody has ever mentioned getting this problem from the

> vitamin C, and that's been hundreds of members all taking daily high

> doses of C. Some people started with stones, but even those I don't

> recall saying they were growing new ones or getting worse.

There is a documented problem with people on kidney dialysis and renal

failure, but it is more theoretical beyond that. However, these

people are probably not pregnant. I'm concerned about what the

oxalate -- or the copper deficiency that would probably result from

such a high intake of C -- might do to the fetus, who is not only much

more vulnerable to stresses in terms of magnitude but also uniquely

vulnerable to some things.

> I agree people possibly shouldn't experiment on their bodies with a

> fetus growing in them, but really, vitamin C has an excellent track

> record of safety, even at high doses, and Klenner's patients have

> gone before. I guess it's up to the woman whether she wants to try

> this or not. It's all hit-or-miss, isn't it? How safe are the

> ingredients in the pre-natal vitamins? In the water? In the food?

> Is it safer to have some insurance against disease, or see how the

> developing fetus does with the mother being very sick while pregnant?

The stuff Tom posted from Klenner is interesting and a compelling set

of anecdotes, and perhaps more than that. I think it would make sene

to the mechanism of relief, because it seems likely to me that the C

might be compensating for some other problem. Although I find it

possible that mother's would be compromised with these problems

inherently on a diet that is possible for humans to eat, I find it

very unlikely humans would have survived this far with significant

reproductive ramifications of having a diet only as rich in C as a

diet can possibly provide.

I'm more inclined to believe that humans can actually function

optimally on a traditional diet from good soil, though I can't rule

out the common evolutionary perspective that ill health is inherent to

the human organism because we are the product of accident, which is a

popular interpretation of evolutionary implications, whether or not it

is correct.

> As for the detoxing, the vitamin C doesn't stir up toxins so they

> circulate more, like cilantro and a lot of other chelators, more it

> works like chlorella - it mops up what is circulating to keep it from

> doing any damage.

I'm not familiar with this. Could you explain more? I just haven't

yet heard of C chelating or conjugating anything.

> I believe extended use of high doses of vitamin C

> allow the body to gradually reduce the amount of stored toxins, tho

> because as the systems of elimination get their load reduced the body

> can start to address those stored toxins and gradually get them out

> as well. If your liver, spleen, etc. are already overloaded, the

> body obviously won't want to be tackling any toxins stored in fat,

> tissue, etc. The literature on fasting is pretty plain about this

> one - the body puts things off for later if it is overwhelmed.

> Remove the load and it starts addressing some of those stored items

> on it's " to-do list " .

Well, fasting is another candidate for something great to do when

you're not pregnant and bad to do when you are.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I think maybe the difference we're talking about here is when a

person has been on a very good diet since ? before birth ? or is

trying to catch up after a lifetime of eating a SAD diet. I agree

that in native nutrition, where one has been on it since before

birth, these things should come easily - collagen, pregnancy,

childbirth, etc. But how many on this list have been on WAP for that

long? We're all trying to catch up, or make up for a lifetime of

wrong eating and living. We come here, find this, alter our

lifestyles out of discomfort and trying to make things better more

often than not. So we cannot assume that the pregnant mother we're

speaking of has had a history of good diet. Because of that, her

body is not functioning ideally, isn't constructed ideally, and is

probably loaded with a buildup of toxins.

Linus ing's work on the use of vitamin C to prevent heart disease

found that the arteries put layers of plaque on area that had lost

elasticity, to keep them from bursting. Giving vitamin C in high

doses over a period of time caused the plaque to clear out and also

the elasticity of the arteries to be restored. (Sorry I still

haven't looked up that one, but it's neat) Elasticity is restored

and the skin and organs are toned all over the body, not just in the

arteries, due to the need for ascorbic acid as a catalyst in the

body's mechanism to make collagen. In a healthy diet, this has taken

place all along, as the collagen is grown, but it looks like taking

higher doses of vitamin C allows the body to replace poor quality

collagen with high quality collagen, as best I can explain it with my

layman's knowledge. Klenner's observations that the organs of the

pregnant woman are toned and elastic supports this. I don't know how

much vitamin C it takes for this effect to occur, but it's probably

much more than the 500 mg, which lots of people take and don't seem

to be enjoying this benefit.

Dr. Rath, an understudy of Linus ing, is working on a nutritional

formula using vitamin C, green tea extract and some other nutrients

to keep cancer tumors from spreading. His theory is that the

metasticizing is what kills people, so containing it is key. He's

trying to do this by strengthing the cell-cell connective tissue to

the point where the tumor cannot grow or escape. He's furthered

ing's work on the effect of vitamin C's effect on collagen

considerably in this regard.

Aside from that, vitamin C is a catalyst in the body's making

countless enzymes for growth, detox, nutrition, and so forth. If the

person has not had an optimal diet before or during pregnancy, it

would help increase the amount of enzymes to the maximum the body can

make given the minerals, etc it has to work with. Vitamin C is also

thought to be able to keep enzymes working longer, so they don't get

destroyed so quickly.

Klenner and ing noted it was necessary to fill the blood to its

capacity with ascorbate in order to get the full effect. This would

ensure that the ascorbic acid was available wherever it was needed,

and in sufficient quantity. If the body had adapted to ingesting

large quantities of vitamin C, like our ancestors had been able to

get similar quantities from their diets, it seems like the body would

have a way to store it or preferentially deliver it where it was most

needed. To me this indicates that vitamin C is filling in for some

other need that is unfulfilled, as you said. Probably a lot of it is

enzymes and phytonutrients that we should be getting from

raw/fermented foods. But I believe also that vitamin C (or maybe the

enzymes it helps create?) helps detox from the huge number of toxins

our bodies are burdened with, which is a problem our bodies haven't

adapted to yet.

And, since there are all those scary warnings out there against

eating raw foods, fermented foods, etc during pregnancy (listeria,

etc.) vitamin C might be preferred by some to upping the intake of

enzyme-rich (raw) foods, or at least insurance against getting sick

from them.

FWIW: I doubt fasting during pregnancy or getting pregnant when your

kidneys have failed are good ideas. I DO wish I'd known of Klenner's

work before I'd had my kids. Let's just say they weren't smiley.

<chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:>

> > In

> > nine months, or 6 if you start the second trimester, a lot of skin

> > growth/healing could take place, replacing inelastic cells (or

really

> > the glue that holds cells together is what we're talking about)

with

> > a better form thanks to the catalyst of vitamin C.

>

> We're not talking about glue that holds cells together, really, but

> extracellular matrix that holds basic tissue frames together. So,

for

> example, your bones are mostly collagen, and your cartilage and skin

> has a bit.

>

snip

>

> The stuff Tom posted from Klenner is interesting and a compelling

set

> of anecdotes, and perhaps more than that. I think it would make

sene

> to the mechanism of relief, because it seems likely to me that the C

> might be compensating for some other problem. Although I find it

> possible that mother's would be compromised with these problems

> inherently on a diet that is possible for humans to eat, I find it

> very unlikely humans would have survived this far with significant

> reproductive ramifications of having a diet only as rich in C as a

> diet can possibly provide.

>

> I'm more inclined to believe that humans can actually function

> optimally on a traditional diet from good soil, though I can't rule

> out the common evolutionary perspective that ill health is inherent

to

> the human organism because we are the product of accident, which is

a

> popular interpretation of evolutionary implications, whether or not

it

> is correct.

>

> > As for the detoxing, the vitamin C doesn't stir up toxins so they

> > circulate more, like cilantro and a lot of other chelators, more

it

> > works like chlorella - it mops up what is circulating to keep it

from

> > doing any damage.

>

> I'm not familiar with this. Could you explain more? I just haven't

> yet heard of C chelating or conjugating anything.

>

> > I believe extended use of high doses of vitamin C

> > allow the body to gradually reduce the amount of stored toxins,

tho

> > because as the systems of elimination get their load reduced the

body

> > can start to address those stored toxins and gradually get them

out

> > as well. If your liver, spleen, etc. are already overloaded, the

> > body obviously won't want to be tackling any toxins stored in fat,

> > tissue, etc. The literature on fasting is pretty plain about this

> > one - the body puts things off for later if it is overwhelmed.

> > Remove the load and it starts addressing some of those stored

items

> > on it's " to-do list " .

>

> Well, fasting is another candidate for something great to do when

> you're not pregnant and bad to do when you are.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Renate,

> I think maybe the difference we're talking about here is when a

> person has been on a very good diet since ? before birth ? or is

> trying to catch up after a lifetime of eating a SAD diet. I agree

> that in native nutrition, where one has been on it since before

> birth, these things should come easily - collagen, pregnancy,

> childbirth, etc. But how many on this list have been on WAP for that

> long? We're all trying to catch up, or make up for a lifetime of

> wrong eating and living.

But we aren't trying to catch up with collagen synthesis. The

requirement for vitamin C for collagen synthesis is pretty low, most

people get it on the SAD, and it probably isn't something you can

really " make up " for in the sense that if you take 400-fold more

vitamin C, you will make 400 times more collagen per day and thus

" catch up " with all the deficient collagen synthesis you had for

decades in a matter of months. It just makes no sense in the context

of collagen synthesis.

> We come here, find this, alter our

> lifestyles out of discomfort and trying to make things better more

> often than not. So we cannot assume that the pregnant mother we're

> speaking of has had a history of good diet. Because of that, her

> body is not functioning ideally, isn't constructed ideally, and is

> probably loaded with a buildup of toxins.

All the more reason for caution -- maybe she doesn't detoxify oxalate

well or protect against it well because of these things.

> Linus ing's work on the use of vitamin C to prevent heart disease

> found that the arteries put layers of plaque on area that had lost

> elasticity, to keep them from bursting. Giving vitamin C in high

> doses over a period of time caused the plaque to clear out and also

> the elasticity of the arteries to be restored. (Sorry I still

> haven't looked up that one, but it's neat) Elasticity is restored

> and the skin and organs are toned all over the body, not just in the

> arteries, due to the need for ascorbic acid as a catalyst in the

> body's mechanism to make collagen.

It has to be something besides simply making more collagen. Plaque

builds up plenty of collagen in people eating the SAD, which is how

the fibrous lesions develop.

A major cause of loss of elasticity is calcification. Calcification

can be general, but it is particularly likely to form around pieces of

dead tissue that has not been removed. Vitamin K2 supports this on

three levels, by preventing cell death, helping clear out the debris

of dead cells, and activating the proteins that protect against

calcfication -- and it thereby controls elasticity. Perhaps vitamin C

is preventing cell death.

Vitamin C protects LDL from oxidation, as well, which is cytotoxic and

promotes atherosclerosis.

> In a healthy diet, this has taken

> place all along, as the collagen is grown, but it looks like taking

> higher doses of vitamin C allows the body to replace poor quality

> collagen with high quality collagen, as best I can explain it with my

> layman's knowledge.

I doubt the supraphysiological doses are causing an active removal of

old collagen and replacement with new collagen. But even if they

were, and thereby causing a massive rearrangment of the body's

architecture, this is a pharmacological treatment and a wholesale

reorganization of the body. Is pregnancy the best time to take on

this feat?

> Klenner's observations that the organs of the

> pregnant woman are toned and elastic supports this. I don't know how

> much vitamin C it takes for this effect to occur, but it's probably

> much more than the 500 mg, which lots of people take and don't seem

> to be enjoying this benefit.

Perhaps, but again, it would be good to research the actual mechanism

and see if there is a way to achieve the same thing using nutrients in

amounts that are actually obtainable on a good diet. Also, it would

be good to tie this to health outcomes of the fetus. it is good to

prevent the mother from getting sick, but not at the expense of the

fetus.

It only takes 600 mg of vitamin C to start lowering copper status.

4,000 mg could conceivably lower copper status a lot. I would be

somewhat worried about the effects of this as well as the potential

oxalate formation and other possibly overlooked issues.

> Dr. Rath, an understudy of Linus ing, is working on a nutritional

> formula using vitamin C, green tea extract and some other nutrients

> to keep cancer tumors from spreading. His theory is that the

> metasticizing is what kills people, so containing it is key. He's

> trying to do this by strengthing the cell-cell connective tissue to

> the point where the tumor cannot grow or escape. He's furthered

> ing's work on the effect of vitamin C's effect on collagen

> considerably in this regard.

Ok, but there are many other mechanisms at work here, like antioxidant status.

> Aside from that, vitamin C is a catalyst in the body's making

> countless enzymes for growth, detox, nutrition, and so forth.

There are not countless enzymes. There are 8 known enzymes in

mammals, very countable. Contrast that with zinc, which has a couple

hundred.

Again, I'm not familiar with the role of C in detoxification. Which

enzymes are you talking about?

> If the

> person has not had an optimal diet before or during pregnancy, it

> would help increase the amount of enzymes to the maximum the body can

> make given the minerals, etc it has to work with. Vitamin C is also

> thought to be able to keep enzymes working longer, so they don't get

> destroyed so quickly.

Ok, but how? Is it by affecting the oxidative stress in the cell? If

so, there might be better ways of doing that than megadosing C.

> Klenner and ing noted it was necessary to fill the blood to its

> capacity with ascorbate in order to get the full effect. This would

> ensure that the ascorbic acid was available wherever it was needed,

> and in sufficient quantity. If the body had adapted to ingesting

> large quantities of vitamin C, like our ancestors had been able to

> get similar quantities from their diets, it seems like the body would

> have a way to store it or preferentially deliver it where it was most

> needed.

But the body is not adapted to consuming large amounts of C. You need

to use IV to truly maximize blood levels. Urinary excretion starts

increasing after 200 mg and the biggest effects on blood levels are

between 30 mg and 100 mg.

Which ancestors of ours got vitamin C in gram amounts? How did they do that?

> To me this indicates that vitamin C is filling in for some

> other need that is unfulfilled, as you said. Probably a lot of it is

> enzymes and phytonutrients that we should be getting from

> raw/fermented foods.

I think a large part of it is its antioxidant capacity, which is

replacing the role of a low-PUFA diet and good gluathione status,

which requires raw protein, B6, selenium, magnesium, niacin, and good

thyroid health and energy production.

> But I believe also that vitamin C (or maybe the

> enzymes it helps create?) helps detox from the huge number of toxins

> our bodies are burdened with, which is a problem our bodies haven't

> adapted to yet.

How does it do that? I realize I'm asking technical questions and you

may not have all the details on hand, but it's the only way I can make

this make sense to me.

> And, since there are all those scary warnings out there against

> eating raw foods, fermented foods, etc during pregnancy (listeria,

> etc.) vitamin C might be preferred by some to upping the intake of

> enzyme-rich (raw) foods, or at least insurance against getting sick

> from them.

Well that is a decent point, but I think there are good ways to

approach good nutrition without contracting listeria, which includes

most of the things I listed above.

> FWIW: I doubt fasting during pregnancy or getting pregnant when your

> kidneys have failed are good ideas. I DO wish I'd known of Klenner's

> work before I'd had my kids. Let's just say they weren't smiley.

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure this is beneficial in many cases if

Klenner's data is as Tom presented, but I'd still be cautious about

it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I did high doses of vitamin c during my last pregnancy during the second and

third trimesters, and felt wonderful, had a short delivery time, no stretch

marks, no tearing, and wasn't sick once. I delivered a nine pound boy

naturally and gained 60 pounds (and I'm not young -- 40 -- so I thought the

stretch mark thing was pretty significant!). Although I totally understand

that this doesn't mean everyone will respond in the same way. I also

followed the WAPF diet for pregnant and nursing mothers. Much better and

healthier pregnancy than my first, but again, don't necessarily attribute

that to the vitamin c. I took 3-4 grams a day, based on the Klenner

protocol.

I remember reading something very interesting where they discussed how

animals who produce their own vitamin C increase their levels 4 fold during

pregnancy. There is also a theory that humans used to have the ability to

produce vitamin C but lost it somewhere along the evolutionary scale. Sorry

I can't offer more than that, but don't remember where I saw it. Before we

became serious about a traditional diet, we relied a lot more on vitamin C,

and I think I had a lingering attachment to it when I got pregnant the last

time. Don't know if I'd find it necessary if I had another baby, although I

did get the most beautiful, round-headed, happy, perfect little one!

[Guest guest]

>

> Also, it would

> be good to tie this to health outcomes of the fetus. it is good to

> prevent the mother from getting sick, but not at the expense of the

> fetus.

Did you read the whole Klenner article? The babies of the women on

high doses of vitamin C were recognizable by the staff of the

hospital and were dubbed " The C babies " because they were beautifully

formed, happy and healthy.

>

> It only takes 600 mg of vitamin C to start lowering copper status.

> 4,000 mg could conceivably lower copper status a lot. I would be

> somewhat worried about the effects of this as well as the potential

> oxalate formation and other possibly overlooked issues.

>

What is this about copper? Have you read " Soil, Grass, and Cancer "

by Andre Voisin? He noted that as health went up, copper went down

and vice versa. So copper goes down as C goes up... Is it creating

deficiency or is the body shedding it because it doesn't need it?

>

> > Aside from that, vitamin C is a catalyst in the body's making

> > countless enzymes for growth, detox, nutrition, and so forth.

>

> There are not countless enzymes. There are 8 known enzymes in

> mammals, very countable. Contrast that with zinc, which has a

couple

> hundred.

Well, there may be 8 large groupings of enzymes, like protease,

lipase, etc. but within those groupings are a lot of specific

enzymes - many of which are bond-specific, they'll only break one

type of bond in a molecule. Against the rest of the molecule they're

useless. One protease enzyme can't completely break down protein but

only one part of the chain, and even then only under certain

conditions of temperature, acidity, etc.

I believe a lot of your other questions will be answered by the links

I sent in.

[Guest guest]

> I did high doses of vitamin c during my last pregnancy during the

second and

> third trimesters, and felt wonderful, had a short delivery time, no

stretch

> marks, no tearing, and wasn't sick once. I delivered a nine pound

Hi ,

I've mostly sat back watching the debate, trying to decide what I'll

do next time I'm pregnant. Since you actually have experience with the

high doses of vitamin C, I'd like to hear more. I'm glad to hear that

3-4 grams per day seemed to help. That's a lot less than the 10-15

grams Klennar had his patients on in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters.

I have some questions:

1. Did you gradually increase your dose or start it suddenly?

2. Do you know anyone else that has tried this?

3. Did you have many stretch marks with other pregnancies? I gained 40

lbs but even when I had only gained 15-20, I already had a huge number

of stretch marks.

4. How did your son's temperament compare to your other children, as a

newborn?

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

,

> I did high doses of vitamin c during my last pregnancy during the

second and

> third trimesters, and felt wonderful, had a short delivery time, no

stretch

> marks, no tearing, and wasn't sick once. I delivered a nine pound boy

> naturally and gained 60 pounds (and I'm not young -- 40 -- so I

thought the

> stretch mark thing was pretty significant!). Although I totally

understand

> that this doesn't mean everyone will respond in the same way. I also

> followed the WAPF diet for pregnant and nursing mothers. Much better and

> healthier pregnancy than my first, but again, don't necessarily

attribute

> that to the vitamin c. I took 3-4 grams a day, based on the Klenner

> protocol.

Great to hear your success story with high dose ascorbate in

pregnancy. The prevention of stretch marks makes perfect sense given

the vitamin's role in collagen production so it's nice to see that

validated in your case. In puberty and pregnancy women have pretty

significant growth of skin in various places so it seems likely that

collagen needs and thus ascorbate needs increase dramatically at such

times.

By the way, it's absolutely true that humans and most other primates

lost the capacity to produce one of the enzymes that produces vitamin

C endogenously (breaking one link of the chain breaks the whole

chain). They've even used genetic techniques to pinpoint the gene and

the mutation. This was discussed on the list last year, I believe. The

enzyme is called L-gulonolactone oxidase and you can read more about

it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Evolutionary_rationales

Tom

[Guest guest]

Renate,

High dose C may allow the body to catch up and undo some damage caused

by toxins or subnormal collagen production, but I think that collagen

is collagen, unless you have references to support your claim of

different " qualities " of collagen. But simply having the capability to

produce all the collagen you need can make a different in arteries and

other tissue (cf. prevention of stretch marks).

I also agree with on the unlikelihood of primitive people

obtaining high doses of vitamin C from their diet on a DAILY basis.

Maybe up to 1-2g in their normal daily total but not 10-15g. HOWEVER,

there are several plants that are extremely high in ascorbic acid and

each was known by its respective culture for its value in treating or

preventing illness. For example, boneset in the Eastern United State.

According to Klenner, the tea made from this plant actually did

contain megadoses of ascorbate---10 to 30 grams in one serving! I may

have posted this quotation previously but it's worth posting again:

Dr. Fred Klenner: " Folklore of past civilizations report that for

every disease afflicting man there is an herb or its equivalent that

will effect a cure. In Puerto Rico the story has long been told " that

to have the health tree Acerola in one's back yard would keep colds

out of the front door. " [1] The ascorbic acid content of this

cherry-like fruit is thirty times that found in oranges. In

Pennsylvania, U.S.A., it was, and for many still is, boneset,

scientifically called Eupatorium perfoliatum[2]. Although it is now

rarely prescribed by physicians, Boneset was the most commonly used

medicinal plant of eastern United States. Most farmsteads had a bundle

of dried boneset in the attic or woodshed from which a most bitter tea

would be meted out to the unfortunate victim of a cold or fever.

Having lived in that section of the country we qualified many times

for this particular drink. The Flu of 1918 stands out very forcefully

in that the Klenners survived when scores about us were dying.

Although bitter it was curative and most of the time the cure was

overnight. Several years ago my curiosity led me to assay this " herbal

medicine " and to my surprise and delight I found that we had been

taking from ten to thirty grams of natural vitamin C at one time. Even

then it was given by body weight. Children one cupful; adults two to

three cupfuls. Cups those days held eight ounces. Twentieth century

man seemingly forgets that his ancestors made crude. drugs from

various plants and roots, and that these decoctions, infusions,

juices, powders, pills and ointments served his purpose. Elegant

pharmacy has only made the forms and shapes more acceptable. "

http://www.doctoryourself.com/klennerpaper.html

I have to agree with that ascorbate's role in cancer involves

much more than collagen production. Many studies (including recent

studies) have shown that vitamin C is selectively toxic to cancer

cells at concentrations attainable only by intravenous delivery. In

other words, massive doses of vitamin C kill cancer cells but are

harmless to normal cells! This has been demonstrated both in vitro and

in vivo. (Ascorbate therapy has no significant side effects, unlike

chemotherapy and radition.) This is amazing and I believe it explains

mostly why ascorbate is effective against cancer. The collagen

hypothesis just seems contrived to me, but future research may bear it

out (see the end of the article linked below).

(and anyone interested in a technical overview), I highly

recommend you read this 2007 review entitled " New Developments and

Novel Therapeutic Perspectives for Vitamin C " . It's pretty

comprehensive and you may find especially interesting the section on

vitamin C's role in protecting endothelial nitric oxide synthesis. A

focus of the review is how C helps prevent cardiovascular disease and

the NO findings are a major part of that. I've only read the first

half but it's got some interesting sections in the second half as

well, including how ascorbate can function as both an antioxidant and

a pro-oxidant.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/10/2171

(Full text is free to anyone )

Tom

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Here's a link to the article on the building collagen to defeat

cancer thing:

http://www4.dr-rath-

foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_Dr_Matthias_Rath/publications/pub2

8.htm

It is a different approach, but I am an admirer of Dr. Rath's work.

He was kicked out of South Africa for giving free vitamins to AIDS

patients because they were turning out to only have deficiencies,

threatening all that nice financial aid the country was getting.

You know what would be really fun would be a session at the next WAPF

conference that was a debate between Masterjohn and someone

like Dr. Rath who advocates high doeses of vitamin C. I mean we're

kind of outclassed by his experience and training, it would be nice

to see him come up against an academic equal and have this debate.

Not to embarrass but to really get both sides of the story out

there, and all the questions answered.

To add in about natural sources of vitamin C, in the old days fruits

weren't as sweet and all as they have been selected to be these days,

and I assume everything was higher in vitamin C. Modern people with

their love of sweet are forgetting that our ancestors loved

sour/bitter flavors as well. Things that used to be eaten like rose

hips and currants are very high in vitamin C and I've seen recipes

for rose hips where CUPS of them are used. I even read a study about

apples that showed that old variety apples grown on their own roots

contained many times more nutrients than modern, grafted ones; and

the older the trees were the more nutrients were in the fruit.

I found a source that said a cup of currants provides 77% of the RDA

of vitamin C. But I wonder, how old were the berries when tested?

Because vitamin C deteriorates in friuts over time. Also how much

vitamin C would result if the currants were fermented into a beer?

After reading Buhner's book about ancient beers, it seems anything

people could get in abundance that was sweet they'd ferment! Even

heather and juniper berries.

Still, not that they'd approach with food what we can with

supplements, but they'd also be getting the nutrients that went with

the ascorbate that increase its effectiveness not to mention the

phytochemicals which themselves are quite strong. The state of

overcrowding the human population is now experiencing would pretty

much prevent people being able to go out and forage similar amounts

of wild berries to eat them straight from the bush/tree, tho, anyways.

[Guest guest]

I have some questions:

1. Did you gradually increase your dose or start it suddenly?

2. Do you know anyone else that has tried this?

3. Did you have many stretch marks with other pregnancies? I gained 40

lbs but even when I had only gained 15-20, I already had a huge number

of stretch marks.

4. How did your son's temperament compare to your other children, as a

newborn?

1. Yes, I think I started with about a gram a day after the first trimester

and worked up to 4 grams by the last trimester.

2. No, but I think I emailed a couple of health-oriented groups I belonged

to to see if anyone else had done it during past pregnancies, and heard from

about four women in their 50s who had done it with their now grown (and

healthy) children. I found that, combined with the Klenner studies,

encouraging.

3. Actually, I gained almost 90 pounds with my daughter, and had very few

stretch marks, in fact, none. I did take vitamin c then, as well, although

not 4 grams. Probably about 1.5-2 grams a day. However, with my daughter the

weight gain was more evenly distributed, but with my son I was literally

" all belly " and worried that I would surely have stretch marks on the sides

of my belly. They never appeared during the pregnancy, and have not appeared

now, nearly a year later. I have never had weight fluctuations, in fact I've

been thin my whole life -- except during pregnancy, when I become simply

voluptuous! I completely ignored my doctor's and midwife's advice to eat

less. There was simply no way I could do that -- I was ravenously hungry all

the time! I just took that as a sign that my body needed lots of nutrients

and now was not the time to diet or count calories. Never had high blood

pressure, swelling, or any complications, either. Perhaps it was the fact

that I didn't have weight fluctuations throughout my life that contributes

to the lack of stretch marks? Don't know. But I do think that recommendation

that women gain no more than 15-20 pounds during pregnancy is a bit of

bulls*** for some of us. Pardon my French.

4. My son is a totally different temperament than my daughter. Don't know if

that's a " girl " or " boy " thing, or what. I have been blessed with two

beautiful, happy babies, but my daughter is a bit more reticent and

cautious, and he is simply out there socially. He goes to everyone and

smiles and laughs constantly. I don't know if that's diet related, or simply

his personality. He seems to take after me, while my very creative daughter

has my artistic husband's temperament. They were both easy babies, though.

The one thing I noticed about them is the head shape -- my son's head is

PERFECTLY round, and he has a wonderfully wide palate. My daughter weighed

nearly 8 pounds, and my son was 9 pounds, and I gained less weight with him,

which I attribute to the cod liver oil and WAPF diet. His birth was peaceful

and he was much happier at birth than my daughter, who unfortunately had

interventions. So, I definitely noticed differences in the pregnancies, but

I really attributed it to the WAPF much more than the vitamin C.