Re: high dose Vit c and pregnancy

[Guest guest]

Zinc deficiency can also contribute to stretch marks. I am deficient in

both! I took 1,000 mg, sometimes 1,500 if a cold seemed looming plus

whatever is in Floradix, except times of illness. It was not enough to

prevent stretch marks, but I didn't get that many considering that #2 was

9lbs2oz and I stand only 5'2 " . Btw, Trace Minerals Research liquid ionic

zinc is balanced with copper. Easy pg and birth, happy baby. However, I

would attribute the mood and etc. to CLO and b vitamins, rather than the

C. At other times, without the CLO and with b vitamins or liver, my mood

was never as improved as with the b and CLO/efa's. For myself, extra C

might help a cold be shorter in duration, but when I take TMR liquid

selenium I just don't get them (I have been deficient in that as well).

I am not really informed about the Trace Minerals Research line of

products, but do believe that liquid supplements work better and am glad

theirs don't have as many additives.

Desh

[Guest guest]

Renate,

> You know what would be really fun would be a session at the next WAPF

> conference that was a debate between Masterjohn and someone

> like Dr. Rath who advocates high doeses of vitamin C. I mean we're

> kind of outclassed by his experience and training, it would be nice

> to see him come up against an academic equal and have this debate.

> Not to embarrass but to really get both sides of the story out

> there, and all the questions answered.

LOL! I hardly think it would be fair to put me, who has essentially

zero training and experience working with vitamin C, in a debate with

someone who actually has such training. The only thing I have done

with vitamin C is treat my colds with it and read about it. What

would be much better is to have two people with similar expertise in

the area but opposite opinions debate the issue.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> LOL! I hardly think it would be fair to put me, who has essentially

> zero training and experience working with vitamin C, in a debate with

> someone who actually has such training. The only thing I have done

> with vitamin C is treat my colds with it and read about it. What

> would be much better is to have two people with similar expertise in

> the area but opposite opinions debate the issue.

Oh, I bet with a few weeks' preparation you could hold your own!

Tom

[Guest guest]

Desh,

Where do you buy these? I'm deficient in zinc bad and when I take

supplements it doesn't seem to work except to upset my stomach. When I

would see Dr. Arem for my thyroid he'd always check my fingernails and lay

into me for not taking my zinc but even if I do it doesn't seem to help

that?? I have bad stretch marks from weight problems. Baby didn't seem to

make them worse so maybe my zinc is better.

Will the supplements help heal them?

I need to get on a good selenium and zinc regimen and I'm considering a

colon cleanse as my uptake of things is awful =( I have to take high doses

to get any effect.

I saw a bentonite and psyllium husk protocol. Anyone done that? I'm also

thinking of doing the DE like someone here mentioned as I need to get toxins

out of my liver so I can lose weight. No matter what I do the fat doesn't'

come off and I think it's because of toxin overload in my organs so my body

can't begin to deal with what it stored in my fat to save them.

Last time I did a detox though I got so sick, vomiting for 7 hours every 10

minutes not to mention the diarrhea at the same time. Took me weeks to not

have muscle weakness or to be able to eat normally.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of De Bell-Frantz

Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:50 AM

Subject: Re: high dose Vit c and pregnancy

Zinc deficiency can also contribute to stretch marks. I am deficient in

both! I took 1,000 mg, sometimes 1,500 if a cold seemed looming plus

whatever is in Floradix, except times of illness. It was not enough to

prevent stretch marks, but I didn't get that many considering that #2 was

9lbs2oz and I stand only 5'2 " . Btw, Trace Minerals Research liquid ionic

zinc is balanced with copper. Easy pg and birth, happy baby. However, I

would attribute the mood and etc. to CLO and b vitamins, rather than the

C. At other times, without the CLO and with b vitamins or liver, my mood

was never as improved as with the b and CLO/efa's. For myself, extra C

might help a cold be shorter in duration, but when I take TMR liquid

selenium I just don't get them (I have been deficient in that as well).

I am not really informed about the Trace Minerals Research line of

products, but do believe that liquid supplements work better and am glad

theirs don't have as many additives.

Desh

[Guest guest]

just a thought....Dr Linus in did lots of research w/ vt.-C back in the day.

He & his associates that worked w/ him had solid grey, almost white hair. One

can only wonder if whitening of the hair could be a possible side effect of

excessive doses of vt.- C.

Best Always, Jim

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

Renate,

> You know what would be really fun would be a session at the next WAPF

> conference that was a debate between Masterjohn and someone

> like Dr. Rath who advocates high doeses of vitamin C. I mean we're

> kind of outclassed by his experience and training, it would be nice

> to see him come up against an academic equal and have this debate.

> Not to embarrass but to really get both sides of the story out

> there, and all the questions answered.

LOL! I hardly think it would be fair to put me, who has essentially

zero training and experience working with vitamin C, in a debate with

someone who actually has such training. The only thing I have done

with vitamin C is treat my colds with it and read about it. What

would be much better is to have two people with similar expertise in

the area but opposite opinions debate the issue.

Chris

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

> just a thought....Dr Linus in did lots of research w/ vt.-C back in the

> day. He & his associates that worked w/ him had solid grey, almost white

> hair. One can only wonder if whitening of the hair could be a possible side

> effect of excessive doses of vt.- C.

Vitamin C lowers copper status, and copper is responsible for the

pigmentation of hair, so that makes sense.

Chris

[Guest guest]

It might be hard. I tried to arrange a debate between Connett

and any person from the PA dental association or any other dental

expert about the safety and efficacy of water fluoridation; nobody

was willing to debate him, in fact they were told by the ADA NOT to

debate him. I don't know if vitamin C is quite such a hot topic as

water fluoridation but I just saw a snip on the news last night

telling people not to take vitamin and mineral supplements. You know

PR firms make those segments and send them out to all the news

stations to play. It makes me wonder, if we're too dumb to feed

ourselves and take vitamins, are we too dumb to vote?

>

> Renate,

>

> > You know what would be really fun would be a session at the next

WAPF

> > conference that was a debate between Masterjohn and someone

> > like Dr. Rath who advocates high doeses of vitamin C. I mean

we're

> > kind of outclassed by his experience and training, it would be

nice

> > to see him come up against an academic equal and have this debate.

> > Not to embarrass but to really get both sides of the story

out

> > there, and all the questions answered.

>

> LOL! I hardly think it would be fair to put me, who has essentially

> zero training and experience working with vitamin C, in a debate

with

> someone who actually has such training. The only thing I have done

> with vitamin C is treat my colds with it and read about it. What

> would be much better is to have two people with similar expertise in

> the area but opposite opinions debate the issue.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn-

If other zinc supplements upset your stomach, then the TMR will make you

hurl. I have to put it in milk to get it down, as a mom of 2 under 5 I

don't really get to eat meals during the day. I get them at

www.vitacost.com , zinc and selenium. Have you ever done an ellimination

diet for food allergies and food chemical intolerances?

Desh

[Guest guest]

No, and I need to. I don't eat during the day much either though I'm hoping

when we move I can. doesn't like being left alone at all even wakes

up if he's alone in the bedroom.

My first plan is low carb and thus gluten free also to see if that's number

one. I did it a few years ago but it didn't seem to help but I'm trying

again. =) Any resources for doing that will be helpful. I've come a long

way but it seems like I have an impossible task before me still.

Thanks,

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of De Bell-Frantz

Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 9:25 AM

Subject: Re: high dose Vit c and pregnancy

Dawn-

If other zinc supplements upset your stomach, then the TMR will make you

hurl. I have to put it in milk to get it down, as a mom of 2 under 5 I

don't really get to eat meals during the day. I get them at

www.vitacost.com , zinc and selenium. Have you ever done an ellimination

diet for food allergies and food chemical intolerances?

Desh

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Just found this on Dr. Cowan's site. thoughts? this is why i hate

taking supplements because i never know if they are harming me or

hurting me! I know some can be so helpful in certain situations, but

which ones, which brands, which formulations, etc. This is under the

supplement section on his site in which he discusses his rationale for

using Standard Process and other supplements:

" I often ask my patients to stop all their usual vitamins and

supplements, and to replace them with carefully chosen products from

Standard Process. Why? Let me use the example of vitamin C to

illustrate my reasoning. Many take some form of vitamin C

supplementation, either all the time or when they feel ill. These

people are often surprised to hear me say that, not only are they not

doing themselves any good, they may actually be causing harm by taking

the usual forms of vitamin C. Ascorbic acid, often erroneously called

vitamin C, is a potent natural preservative found in small amounts in

plants and in some animal tissues. It is an essential nutrient for

humans, as we are unable to synthesize vitamin C on our own. Ascorbic

acid is always found in nature as an organic mixture, which includes

such things as magnesium, manganese, bioflavonoid, rutin and many

other organic compounds. In order to be effective in us it must have

all these other cofactors present, not just the ascorbic acid. Most

vitamin C products, with very few exceptions, strip the ascorbic acid

part of the complex and call this vitamin C. It is not; it is only

ascorbic acid, actually the preservative part of the vitamin C

complex. This ascorbic acid is then given in enormous quantities, far

more than is ever found in natural food, and far more than our bodies

can safely use. Not only can we not use these huge quantities of

ascorbic acid, but our bodies also are forced to call on its own

reserves to join with this ascorbic acid. This draws upon and

eventually depletes our bodies of these other vital nutrients that

make up the vitamin C complex.

Standard Process is one of only two companies that I know of that

doesn't make this mistake. When Standard Process puts vitamin C in

their products, it is always the whole plant or animal extract

dehydrated at low heat to preserve the integrity of the complex.

Starting with vitamin C-rich sources such as rose hips, acerola

berries, buckwheat shoots and animal adrenal glands, each tablet will

contain only about 2-10 mg of ascorbic acid, which by federal decree

is labeled as the vitamin C content. In fact, one cannot get more than

about 15 mg of vitamin C into a normal-sized tablet. All the pills

with more than this are nothing more than chemical ascorbic acid

which, as I said, is a chemical preservative that we have no business

ingesting in such huge amounts.

The same argument holds for all the other vitamins and all the other

Standard Process products. "

lisa

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Just found this on Dr. Cowan's site. thoughts? this is why i hate

> taking supplements because i never know if they are harming me or

> hurting me! I know some can be so helpful in certain situations, but

> which ones, which brands, which formulations, etc. This is under the

> supplement section on his site in which he discusses his rationale for

> using Standard Process and other supplements: [snip]

Ascorbic acid is an essential cofactor for at least 8 of our enzymes,

which cannot function without it. Rutin is a bioflavonoid, and

bioflavonoids are not essential nutrients, not enzyme cofactors,

though the tiny portion of them that is absorbed without being

detoxified can act as enzyme inhibitors, and, by supplying our bodies

with small amounts of natural toxins, stimulate the production of our

detox enzymes for the detoxification of more potent toxins. Ascorbic

acid is used cooperatively with copper in some instances -- I don't

know if this is also the case for Mg and Mn, but even if it is, I

don't think anyone would call these minerals active components of the

" vitamin C complex. " I think it is more reasonable to call them by

their respective names, call ascorbic acid vitamin C, and say that

vitamin C is needed in cooperative actions with certain minerals.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi

So what does this mean for supplementing w/ mega doses vit. c in

either form--just pure ascorbic acid or a product like Standard

Processes (although i am not sure you can mega dose w/ Standard

Process)? I guess maybe this comes down to the question of whether to

supplement w/ just one vitamin/mineral anyhow? Or maybe going w/ a

product like Standard Process which seems to use " whole foods "

ingredients in a way that our bodies would recognize? One reason I am

really interested is because I was considering taking about 2-4 grams

of Vit. C per day during my pregnancy based on some of the discussion

here. I know you didn't think that was a great idea anyway, but... the

benefits just sound so good! But I don't want to be depleting my body

of nutrients--as Cowan suggests-- by taking mega doses of C.

thanks again,

lisa

>

> Ascorbic acid is an essential cofactor for at least 8 of our enzymes,

> which cannot function without it. Rutin is a bioflavonoid, and

> bioflavonoids are not essential nutrients, not enzyme cofactors,

> though the tiny portion of them that is absorbed without being

> detoxified can act as enzyme inhibitors, and, by supplying our bodies

> with small amounts of natural toxins, stimulate the production of our

> detox enzymes for the detoxification of more potent toxins. Ascorbic

> acid is used cooperatively with copper in some instances -- I don't

> know if this is also the case for Mg and Mn, but even if it is, I

> don't think anyone would call these minerals active components of the

> " vitamin C complex. " I think it is more reasonable to call them by

> their respective names, call ascorbic acid vitamin C, and say that

> vitamin C is needed in cooperative actions with certain minerals.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> So what does this mean for supplementing w/ mega doses vit. c in

> either form--just pure ascorbic acid or a product like Standard

> Processes (although i am not sure you can mega dose w/ Standard

> Process)?

I would not mega-dose with anything containing bioflavonoids because I

consider them toxins. I think they may be beneficial in small

amounts, but I doubt they are beneficial in huge amounts. But I do

not have any proof that taking large amounts of rutin or hesperidin or

other flavonoids usually contained in these complexes is actually

harmful -- it just probably is. I am skeptical of the value of

mega-dosing vitamin C except in certain circumstances like colds or

other sicknesses, but the mega-dose advocates make some good points

and I've yet to really tackle all the information. Mega-dosing C

could increase your need for copper, so I'd make sure you are getting

adequate copper if you do it.

> I guess maybe this comes down to the question of whether to

> supplement w/ just one vitamin/mineral anyhow? Or maybe going w/ a

> product like Standard Process which seems to use " whole foods "

> ingredients in a way that our bodies would recognize? One reason I am

> really interested is because I was considering taking about 2-4 grams

> of Vit. C per day during my pregnancy based on some of the discussion

> here. I know you didn't think that was a great idea anyway, but... the

> benefits just sound so good! But I don't want to be depleting my body

> of nutrients--as Cowan suggests-- by taking mega doses of C.

Well you don't have to worry about " depleting " your body of

bioflavonoids, which are the only thing he mentions besides magnesium

and manganese. So maybe you could take ascorbic acid and a good

multi-mineral supplement. I would say for moderate doses something

like acerola powder might be good, but if you really want to get 4

grams of ascorbic acid (which, yes, is absolutely vitamin C), you'd

probably have to totally OD on flavonoids and such things. And taking

4 grams of C through an SP supplement would, I imagine, cost you an

arm and a leg.

Chris

[Guest guest]

there are other natural c supps out now. also, there are combination

products- floradix for instance has plant extracts in it. also easy to

compromise and take chemical c with fruit. i have bioflavinoid complex

in the works on my kitchen counter right now- i'm drying organic citrus

peels

desh

[Guest guest]

chris,

toxins in supplement form only, right? i guess one can't really

megadose like this on foods. what is the range for small versus large

amounts in your opinion?

thanks, again.

lisa

>

> I would not mega-dose with anything containing bioflavonoids because I

> consider them toxins. I think they may be beneficial in small

> amounts, but I doubt they are beneficial in huge amounts. But I do

> not have any proof that taking large amounts of rutin or hesperidin or

> other flavonoids usually contained in these complexes is actually

> harmful -- it just probably is. I am skeptical of the value of

> mega-dosing vitamin C except in certain circumstances like colds or

> other sicknesses, but the mega-dose advocates make some good points

> and I've yet to really tackle all the information. Mega-dosing C

> could increase your need for copper, so I'd make sure you are getting

> adequate copper if you do it.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> toxins in supplement form only, right? i guess one can't really

> megadose like this on foods. what is the range for small versus large

> amounts in your opinion?

Plant products are full of toxins. Many of the flavonoids are

apparently meant to absorb light and play some other similar functions

but many of them are designed to be toxins to insects or other plants.

In humans, they may have health benefits at the level found in a

whole foods plant-inclusive diet. The principle of hormesis may be

active, which states that small amounts of toxins benefit health by

revving up the body's defense against them. So they may not

*effectively* act as toxins in the small amounts, but presumably they

might at large amounts -- how large I don't know.

Tom was saying that many groups used acerola cherries or other high-C

plants during times of stress such as illness. Maybe it would be good

to follow this practice, though I don't know how much they were

taking. Taking a good dose of this stuff should be fine, but I would

be quite leery of *mega*dosing on bioflavonoids long-term or during

pregnancy, IMO.

Chris