Re: hypothetical situation!

[Guest guest]

--- Dan <repent_kog_is_near@...> wrote:

> What hope can we offer them? How can they raise above the situation,

> and still maintain decent health. How will survival happen in such

> rough situation?

Move to the country and grow your own?

[Guest guest]

Will life be so easy for all?

Well, what you said is certainly ideal..

What can the average Joe or do in reality? What can they do to

be sustained, rather than washed away...

or in the hypothetical situation, what can you or me (or Sally/Enig

for that matter) do, with the knowledge we have acquired so far?

Regards

-Dan.

> --- Dan <repent_kog_is_near@> wrote:

> > What hope can we offer them? How can they raise above the

situation,

> > and still maintain decent health. How will survival happen in such

> > rough situation?

>

> Move to the country and grow your own?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nothing hypothetical about it....I raised my children out in the country miles

away from the nearest paved road, grew our own, no electricity outside of

photovoltaic, no water outside of a jack pump....my children, now adults, have

found memories of their upbringing, but have chosen to live in suburban america

instead.

It was once said, if you want to live life free, take your time, move slowly.

Best Always, Jim

repent_kog_is_near <repent_kog_is_near@...> wrote:

Just to stretch out minds...

Just suppose.. (-a hypothesis)..

In the USA, the government wants to control the choice of food & gets

mean & shuts down all local farms. (this won't happen, but just for

this case of hypothesis), and they order that people only buy from

supermarkets which has commercial name-brand products.

So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

But you get all the foods from the superstores- animal and plant

origin-all fats/protein/carbs.

And the governement will not tell which foods have been GE or

irradiated.

Fast foods & Restaurants & doctors prosper, but everyone has the

liberty to get any foods from the store to their home. Also there

will be liberty to do exrecise-walk/run/workout etc.

Also, let's add this to the case.

The government has regulated that each county has only one health

food store, and the prices are over-inflated. You can get nutritional

supplements, but it will have a very big price-tag. You can Kefir

grains, CLO etc.

_____________

From a NN perspective, how would you cope up? Could you?

What can you still do, in the above hypothetical situation(which I

believe and trust will never happen) to maintain some/good decent

health. Is it possible?

How will you order your choices in the supermarket/health food store,

to get the most bang for the buck?

How will you care for tender little children and growing-up teens in

this kind of a situation.?

What will your over-all action plan be, to overcome the situation,

and still maintain a healthy active lifestyle.

My deeper thought/question, through this is, how much can 'imperfect'

whole foods, help and generate/keep health, if that is all the choice

a man is offered.

This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income or

other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not have

access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have the

interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can they

raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health. How will

survival happen in such rough situation.?

Thanks

-Dan.

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Based on my reading and personal experience, I'd avoid all processed

foods and go with one-ingredient items whenever possible. For meats,

you can use salt/salt brine to cure your own. Avoid poultry and pork

which are almost always raised on factory-farms, but one of those

meat gurus said most beef is still raised on pasture most of its

life, and sheep are still mostly grazed, so beef and lamb/mutton are

the best grocery store choices for meats.

You could still make sourdough bread.

Buy fresh vegetables, locally grown whenever possible.

And for fats, avoid butter (studies show the butter from cows given

hormones is carcinogenic due to the raised levels of IGH) and use

tallow, coconut oil, and olive oil (depending on the use).

Do that and avoid processed foods and you'd probably make out pretty

well.

On the self-sufficiency note - I lived in the city and almost always

had a garden - there are lots that community gardening associations

give out, you can have windowboxes, or if you have a tiny yard you

can at least fit in some tomatoes and herbs. Often you can even get

a tree planted in front of your home, and you could possibly choose a

fruit tree. Replacing the soil (lead contamination) and avoiding the

free humus (often sewage sludge with lots of heavy metals) are good

ideas for city gardening. You'll also have to protect against rats -

two legged and four legged ones!

There is a type of domestic bird - button quail, that has been bred

to be able to withstand crowded conditions (factory farms) but the up

side is that they're becoming popular pets and thrive indoors in a 20

gallon aquarium or similar sized bird cage (they're floor guys so

need more floorspace than airspace). They'll lay an egg just about

every day, so you could conceivably have a source of eggs even in the

city, and feeding your pets fresh vegetables and wild bird seed will

be a bit better than the soy, cipro (contains arsenic) and other

garbage the factory-farm animals get.

>

> Just to stretch out minds...

>

> Just suppose.. (-a hypothesis)..

>

> In the USA, the government wants to control the choice of food &

gets

> mean & shuts down all local farms. (this won't happen, but just for

> this case of hypothesis), and they order that people only buy from

> supermarkets which has commercial name-brand products.

>

> So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

>

> But you get all the foods from the superstores- animal and plant

> origin-all fats/protein/carbs.

>

> And the governement will not tell which foods have been GE or

> irradiated.

>

> Fast foods & Restaurants & doctors prosper, but everyone has the

> liberty to get any foods from the store to their home. Also there

> will be liberty to do exrecise-walk/run/workout etc.

>

> Also, let's add this to the case.

>

> The government has regulated that each county has only one health

> food store, and the prices are over-inflated. You can get

nutritional

> supplements, but it will have a very big price-tag. You can Kefir

> grains, CLO etc.

> _____________

>

> From a NN perspective, how would you cope up? Could you?

>

> What can you still do, in the above hypothetical situation(which I

> believe and trust will never happen) to maintain some/good decent

> health. Is it possible?

>

> How will you order your choices in the supermarket/health food

store,

> to get the most bang for the buck?

>

> How will you care for tender little children and growing-up teens

in

> this kind of a situation.?

>

> What will your over-all action plan be, to overcome the situation,

> and still maintain a healthy active lifestyle.

>

> My deeper thought/question, through this is, how much

can 'imperfect'

> whole foods, help and generate/keep health, if that is all the

choice

> a man is offered.

>

> This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income or

> other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not

have

> access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have the

> interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

> foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can

they

> raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health. How

will

> survival happen in such rough situation.?

>

> Thanks

> -Dan.

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe not so great for the hypothetical situation, but this would

probably apply to the practical situation of a low income family.

There are several not so local not so small farms that offer organic

and free-range, although considerably fewer offer grass-fed.

Organic Valley is one - they advertise pastured cows and they are

certified organic. They're my main backup for cream (as half and half

due to carageenan becoming an additive allowed in organic foods)

cheese and butter. The drawback to the half and half is that it is

UHT and even though the butter is pastuerized, if you buy the unsalted

version it is cultured. Some, but not all of their cheeses are

available raw. (http://www.organicvalley.coop/)

I also use some of the European imported butters such as Kerrygold

(also pasteurized), which is by far the best commercial butter I have

found in terms of color and taste, but it is very expensive even

compared to the Organic Valley brand.

You can get free-range eggs by Nature's Yoke

(http://www.naturesyoke.com/) the green package is the free-range one

and they have lovely dark orangey-yellow yolks. These are not

available where I have moved to and I haven't gotten a chance to

evaluate the available brands.

In terms of meats...

Shop rite stocks a brand of chicken called Readington farms (sp?)

which is free-range, Foodtown has a similar brand called Murray's.

Both make excellent stock. The -teeter down here has a brand

too, but I haven't tried it yet.

Shop rite imports " free-range " beef from Australia. I know their

pasture conditions haven't been that great, but judging by taste

they're far better than standard meat. The brand is Nature's Reserve.

Occasionally their whole tenderloin goes on sale (about 4-5 lbs of

meat) - I've seen it as low as 3.99/lb. Also, the butcher often trims

the excess fat from some of their cuts - if you can catch him before a

holiday he should be able to put aside enough for you to make a decent

amount of lard out of.

You can also find the occasional free-range leg of lamb at Shop Rite,

I don't recall the brand: I wasn't terribly impressed by it but I tend

to prefer lamb as a " light " meat instead of a " dark " one.

For seafood I found Wegmans to be the best due to their wide range of

wild-caught fish.

I guess what I'm trying to say is read the labels and shop around.

Don't get tied to a single supermarket, instead visit every

supermarket local to you. Read the weekly sales circulars (a lot of

stores will even email these to you.) There are options out there,

they just might take a little work to get!

-Lana

> So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

> This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income or

> other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not have

> access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have the

> interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

> foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can they

> raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health.

[Guest guest]

Don't let the store brand " organic " things fool you either. Some

stores here (like Wegman's) are greenwashing some of the meats.

They label them as " natural " which has no meaning, legally, and

say " no added hormones " on the chicken. Actually from what I've read

the practice now-days is not to add hormones to the chicken feed but

cipro, an antibiotic that makes them gain weight, and often tylan to

fight the mycoplasma that is epidemic in some areas. Cipro contains

arsenic, which while it doesn't seem to accumulate in the meat, does

in the runoff from the farms so is environmentally disastrous. Tylan

causes MCS in humans and I keep wondering if the high use of it has

any connection to the scads of new cases of MCS I'm hearing about

lately. I believe msg, and all sorts of food colorings and additives

can still be added with the natural label on as well, but maybe

someone else can say about that who knows more.

" Free Range " means just that they aren't in cages, it in no way

implies they have access to grass or even sunlight (or if they have

an outdoor yard they may not be willing to go out - like if it's

muddy all the time or foul). They can use dyes in the food or even

marigold petals to get the yolks dark orange and it doesn't mean

there is any beta-carotene in the eggs.

>

> Maybe not so great for the hypothetical situation, but this would

> probably apply to the practical situation of a low income family.

> There are several not so local not so small farms that offer organic

> and free-range, although considerably fewer offer grass-fed.

>

> Organic Valley is one - they advertise pastured cows and they are

> certified organic. They're my main backup for cream (as half and

half

> due to carageenan becoming an additive allowed in organic foods)

> cheese and butter. The drawback to the half and half is that it is

> UHT and even though the butter is pastuerized, if you buy the

unsalted

> version it is cultured. Some, but not all of their cheeses are

> available raw. (http://www.organicvalley.coop/)

>

> I also use some of the European imported butters such as Kerrygold

> (also pasteurized), which is by far the best commercial butter I

have

> found in terms of color and taste, but it is very expensive even

> compared to the Organic Valley brand.

>

> You can get free-range eggs by Nature's Yoke

> (http://www.naturesyoke.com/) the green package is the free-range

one

> and they have lovely dark orangey-yellow yolks. These are not

> available where I have moved to and I haven't gotten a chance to

> evaluate the available brands.

>

> In terms of meats...

>

> Shop rite stocks a brand of chicken called Readington farms (sp?)

> which is free-range, Foodtown has a similar brand called Murray's.

> Both make excellent stock. The -teeter down here has a brand

> too, but I haven't tried it yet.

>

> Shop rite imports " free-range " beef from Australia. I know their

> pasture conditions haven't been that great, but judging by taste

> they're far better than standard meat. The brand is Nature's

Reserve.

> Occasionally their whole tenderloin goes on sale (about 4-5 lbs of

> meat) - I've seen it as low as 3.99/lb. Also, the butcher often

trims

> the excess fat from some of their cuts - if you can catch him

before a

> holiday he should be able to put aside enough for you to make a

decent

> amount of lard out of.

>

> You can also find the occasional free-range leg of lamb at Shop

Rite,

> I don't recall the brand: I wasn't terribly impressed by it but I

tend

> to prefer lamb as a " light " meat instead of a " dark " one.

>

> For seafood I found Wegmans to be the best due to their wide range

of

> wild-caught fish.

>

> I guess what I'm trying to say is read the labels and shop around.

> Don't get tied to a single supermarket, instead visit every

> supermarket local to you. Read the weekly sales circulars (a lot of

> stores will even email these to you.) There are options out there,

> they just might take a little work to get!

>

> -Lana

>

>

> > So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

>

> > This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income

or

> > other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not

have

> > access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have

the

> > interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

> > foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can

they

> > raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health.

>

[Guest guest]

What is MCS?

Belinda

> >

> > Maybe not so great for the hypothetical situation, but this would

> > probably apply to the practical situation of a low income family.

> > There are several not so local not so small farms that offer organic

> > and free-range, although considerably fewer offer grass-fed.

> >

> > Organic Valley is one - they advertise pastured cows and they are

> > certified organic. They're my main backup for cream (as half and

> half

> > due to carageenan becoming an additive allowed in organic foods)

> > cheese and butter. The drawback to the half and half is that it is

> > UHT and even though the butter is pastuerized, if you buy the

> unsalted

> > version it is cultured. Some, but not all of their cheeses are

> > available raw. (http://www.organicvalley.coop/)

> >

> > I also use some of the European imported butters such as Kerrygold

> > (also pasteurized), which is by far the best commercial butter I

> have

> > found in terms of color and taste, but it is very expensive even

> > compared to the Organic Valley brand.

> >

> > You can get free-range eggs by Nature's Yoke

> > (http://www.naturesyoke.com/) the green package is the free-range

> one

> > and they have lovely dark orangey-yellow yolks. These are not

> > available where I have moved to and I haven't gotten a chance to

> > evaluate the available brands.

> >

> > In terms of meats...

> >

> > Shop rite stocks a brand of chicken called Readington farms (sp?)

> > which is free-range, Foodtown has a similar brand called Murray's.

> > Both make excellent stock. The -teeter down here has a brand

> > too, but I haven't tried it yet.

> >

> > Shop rite imports " free-range " beef from Australia. I know their

> > pasture conditions haven't been that great, but judging by taste

> > they're far better than standard meat. The brand is Nature's

> Reserve.

> > Occasionally their whole tenderloin goes on sale (about 4-5 lbs of

> > meat) - I've seen it as low as 3.99/lb. Also, the butcher often

> trims

> > the excess fat from some of their cuts - if you can catch him

> before a

> > holiday he should be able to put aside enough for you to make a

> decent

> > amount of lard out of.

> >

> > You can also find the occasional free-range leg of lamb at Shop

> Rite,

> > I don't recall the brand: I wasn't terribly impressed by it but I

> tend

> > to prefer lamb as a " light " meat instead of a " dark " one.

> >

> > For seafood I found Wegmans to be the best due to their wide range

> of

> > wild-caught fish.

> >

> > I guess what I'm trying to say is read the labels and shop around.

> > Don't get tied to a single supermarket, instead visit every

> > supermarket local to you. Read the weekly sales circulars (a lot of

> > stores will even email these to you.) There are options out there,

> > they just might take a little work to get!

> >

> > -Lana

> >

> >

> > > So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

> >

> > > This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income

> or

> > > other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not

> have

> > > access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have

> the

> > > interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

> > > foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can

> they

> > > raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry - MCS is Multiple Chemical Sensitivity

> > >

> > > Maybe not so great for the hypothetical situation, but this

would

> > > probably apply to the practical situation of a low income

family.

> > > There are several not so local not so small farms that offer

organic

> > > and free-range, although considerably fewer offer grass-fed.

> > >

> > > Organic Valley is one - they advertise pastured cows and they

are

> > > certified organic. They're my main backup for cream (as half

and

> > half

> > > due to carageenan becoming an additive allowed in organic foods)

> > > cheese and butter. The drawback to the half and half is that

it is

> > > UHT and even though the butter is pastuerized, if you buy the

> > unsalted

> > > version it is cultured. Some, but not all of their cheeses are

> > > available raw. (http://www.organicvalley.coop/)

> > >

> > > I also use some of the European imported butters such as

Kerrygold

> > > (also pasteurized), which is by far the best commercial butter

I

> > have

> > > found in terms of color and taste, but it is very expensive even

> > > compared to the Organic Valley brand.

> > >

> > > You can get free-range eggs by Nature's Yoke

> > > (http://www.naturesyoke.com/) the green package is the free-

range

> > one

> > > and they have lovely dark orangey-yellow yolks. These are not

> > > available where I have moved to and I haven't gotten a chance to

> > > evaluate the available brands.

> > >

> > > In terms of meats...

> > >

> > > Shop rite stocks a brand of chicken called Readington farms

(sp?)

> > > which is free-range, Foodtown has a similar brand called

Murray's.

> > > Both make excellent stock. The -teeter down here has a

brand

> > > too, but I haven't tried it yet.

> > >

> > > Shop rite imports " free-range " beef from Australia. I know

their

> > > pasture conditions haven't been that great, but judging by taste

> > > they're far better than standard meat. The brand is Nature's

> > Reserve.

> > > Occasionally their whole tenderloin goes on sale (about 4-5

lbs of

> > > meat) - I've seen it as low as 3.99/lb. Also, the butcher

often

> > trims

> > > the excess fat from some of their cuts - if you can catch him

> > before a

> > > holiday he should be able to put aside enough for you to make a

> > decent

> > > amount of lard out of.

> > >

> > > You can also find the occasional free-range leg of lamb at Shop

> > Rite,

> > > I don't recall the brand: I wasn't terribly impressed by it but

I

> > tend

> > > to prefer lamb as a " light " meat instead of a " dark " one.

> > >

> > > For seafood I found Wegmans to be the best due to their wide

range

> > of

> > > wild-caught fish.

> > >

> > > I guess what I'm trying to say is read the labels and shop

around.

> > > Don't get tied to a single supermarket, instead visit every

> > > supermarket local to you. Read the weekly sales circulars (a

lot of

> > > stores will even email these to you.) There are options out

there,

> > > they just might take a little work to get!

> > >

> > > -Lana

> > >

> > >

> > > > So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

> > >

> > > > This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-

income

> > or

> > > > other family/relationship hardship situations where they may

not

> > have

> > > > access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may

have

> > the

> > > > interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but

whole

> > > > foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How

can

> > they

> > > > raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That is very true - you aren't guaranteed to get a decent product just

because the label says organic or free range. However, with a little

bit of trial and error, you can find some brands that will make-do.

They certainly aren't as good as what you'd get off the farm, but some

are far superior to the standard versions. IMHO, you can easily tell

by taste... the human tongue is a pretty amazing device.

I know Cipro contains fluoride: it contains arsenic too? No wonder I

don't do well on some eggs - I had just been assuming the thyroid

ickyness they gave me was soy in the feed. I tried several other

brands and always ended up back on the Nature's Yoke because the rest

of them either tasted like junk, had pale flaccid yolks or made my

thyroid icky.

Another thing to consider is if you're not visiting the farms you

purchase from (either because you are buying with a coop or through

mail order) you really don't know if the food is what you expect it to

be. Once again, you're relying on their honesty in advertisement.

Just because a farm is small and local doesn't mean they are any more

likely to tell the truth when they have inventory to sell.

-Lana

On Feb 10, 2008 2:47 PM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> Don't let the store brand " organic " things fool you either. Some

> stores here (like Wegman's) are greenwashing some of the meats.

> They label them as " natural " which has no meaning, legally, and

> say " no added hormones " on the chicken. Actually from what I've read

> the practice now-days is not to add hormones to the chicken feed but

> cipro, an antibiotic that makes them gain weight, and often tylan to

> fight the mycoplasma that is epidemic in some areas. Cipro contains

> arsenic, which while it doesn't seem to accumulate in the meat, does

> in the runoff from the farms so is environmentally disastrous. Tylan

> causes MCS in humans and I keep wondering if the high use of it has

> any connection to the scads of new cases of MCS I'm hearing about

> lately. I believe msg, and all sorts of food colorings and additives

> can still be added with the natural label on as well, but maybe

> someone else can say about that who knows more.

>

> " Free Range " means just that they aren't in cages, it in no way

> implies they have access to grass or even sunlight (or if they have

> an outdoor yard they may not be willing to go out - like if it's

> muddy all the time or foul). They can use dyes in the food or even

> marigold petals to get the yolks dark orange and it doesn't mean

> there is any beta-carotene in the eggs.

[Guest guest]

I appreciate this thread as I find myself in the family/financial

situation that prevents me from going whole hog NT/WAP.

In that hypothetical situation one could do fermented vegetables and

also homemade yogurt, also lacto fermented condiments, also stock and

stock based sauces could be included in the optimal healthy diet

under that hypothetical situation that is not that hypothetical.

Isn't the point that doing as much as you can is better than nothing

at all?

Dora

>

> Just to stretch out minds...

>

> Just suppose.. (-a hypothesis)..

>

> In the USA, the government wants to control the choice of food &

gets

> mean & shuts down all local farms. (this won't happen, but just for

> this case of hypothesis), and they order that people only buy from

> supermarkets which has commercial name-brand products.

>

> So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

>

> But you get all the foods from the superstores- animal and plant

> origin-all fats/protein/carbs.

>

> And the governement will not tell which foods have been GE or

> irradiated.

>

> Fast foods & Restaurants & doctors prosper, but everyone has the

> liberty to get any foods from the store to their home. Also there

> will be liberty to do exrecise-walk/run/workout etc.

>

> Also, let's add this to the case.

>

> The government has regulated that each county has only one health

> food store, and the prices are over-inflated. You can get

nutritional

> supplements, but it will have a very big price-tag. You can Kefir

> grains, CLO etc.

> _____________

>

> From a NN perspective, how would you cope up? Could you?

>

> What can you still do, in the above hypothetical situation(which I

> believe and trust will never happen) to maintain some/good decent

> health. Is it possible?

>

> How will you order your choices in the supermarket/health food

store,

> to get the most bang for the buck?

>

> How will you care for tender little children and growing-up teens

in

> this kind of a situation.?

>

> What will your over-all action plan be, to overcome the situation,

> and still maintain a healthy active lifestyle.

>

> My deeper thought/question, through this is, how much

can 'imperfect'

> whole foods, help and generate/keep health, if that is all the

choice

> a man is offered.

>

> This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income or

> other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not

have

> access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have the

> interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

> foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can

they

> raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health. How

will

> survival happen in such rough situation.?

>

> Thanks

> -Dan.

>

[Guest guest]

So, should I use my kefir to ferment my veggies? I've made sauerkraut before by

just packing chopped cabbage with salt in a jar. I've tried this recently but it

always comes out moldy, so would kefir be a better bet?

Katy

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>>>>>>>>>>>In that hypothetical situation one could do fermented vegetables

and

also homemade yogurt, also lacto fermented condiments, also stock and

stock based sauces could be included in the optimal healthy diet

under that hypothetical situation that is not that

hypothetical.<<<<<<_,_._,___

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12:21 PM

[Guest guest]

I accidentally deleted my own post, I hate software sometimes, Anyway I

have made sauerkraut before by packing cabbage in a jar with salt, now All I get

is moldy veggies, if I covered it with Kefir would that be better?

Katy

>>>>>So, should I use my kefir to ferment my veggies? I've made sauerkraut

before by just packing chopped cabbage with salt in a jar. I've tried this

recently but it always comes out moldy, so would kefir be a better bet?

>>>> one could do fermented vegetables and

also homemade yogurt, also lacto fermented condiments, also stock and

stock based sauces could be included in the optimal healthy diet

under that hypothetical situation that is not that

hypothetical.<<<<<<_,_._,___

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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12:21 PM

[Guest guest]

On 2/10/08, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> I also use some of the European imported butters such as Kerrygold

> (also pasteurized), which is by far the best commercial butter I have

> found in terms of color and taste, but it is very expensive even

> compared to the Organic Valley brand.

Kerrygold is actually sold at some regular grocery stores, seasonally

at least, and at a cheaper price than in the health food store. I

didn't know this until recently, but Hannaford's is one chain that

exists in MA and perhaps elsewhere that carries it, and I think it is

$1/package or so cheaper than Whole Foods.

For those who aren't WAPF members, members get a shopping guide that

is very useful in picking different levels of quality out of brand

names found in stores.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I found it in most grocery stores up north (Foodtown, Shop Rite,

Wegmans, A & P), but the only catch is it is usually with the specialty

cheese and not with the rest of the butter. I still haven't seen it

any cheaper than 4.99/half pound at regular price. Definitely

comparable to some farm prices, but compared to the average grocery

brand it is still twice as much.

-Lana

> Kerrygold is actually sold at some regular grocery stores, seasonally

> at least, and at a cheaper price than in the health food store. I

> didn't know this until recently, but Hannaford's is one chain that

> exists in MA and perhaps elsewhere that carries it, and I think it is

> $1/package or so cheaper than Whole Foods.

[Guest guest]

Fresh cabbage is much easier to ferment into sauerkraut with salt

than old store cabbage (some of it could be a year old!).

--- In , " webriter " <webriter@...>

wrote:

>

>

> So, should I use my kefir to ferment my veggies? I've made

sauerkraut before by just packing chopped cabbage with salt in a jar.

I've tried this recently but it always comes out moldy, so would

kefir be a better bet?

>

> Katy

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> >>>>>>>>>>>In that hypothetical situation one could do fermented

vegetables and

> also homemade yogurt, also lacto fermented condiments, also stock

and

> stock based sauces could be included in the optimal healthy diet

> under that hypothetical situation that is not that

hypothetical.<<<<<<_,_._,___

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1270 - Release Date:

2/10/2008 12:21 PM

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>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Haecklers, I appreciate that tip, I'm sure it was old cabbage and

broccol I've been trying to ferment. So would the water kefir I have work to

ferment them better, Especially if I find fresher veggies?

Katy

>>>>>Fresh cabbage is much easier to ferment into sauerkraut with salt

than old store cabbage (some of it could be a year old!).<<<

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------

----------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1270 - Release Date:

2/10/2008 12:21 PM

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 2/11/08, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> I found it in most grocery stores up north (Foodtown, Shop Rite,

> Wegmans, A & P), but the only catch is it is usually with the specialty

> cheese and not with the rest of the butter. I still haven't seen it

> any cheaper than 4.99/half pound at regular price. Definitely

> comparable to some farm prices, but compared to the average grocery

> brand it is still twice as much.

I had a friend who bought it for $4 at Hannaford's. He didn't say it

was on sale but I don't know for sure that it wasn't. He bought all

of them, and then they said they weren't getting any more because they

carry it seasonally. Why on earth they wouldn't order more when they

can count on at least one guy to buy them out of stock every time is

beyond me!

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

I found it in most grocery stores up north (Foodtown, Shop Rite,

Wegmans, A & P), but the only catch is it is usually with the specialty

cheese and not with the rest of the butter. I still haven't seen it

> any cheaper than 4.99/half pound at regular price. Definitely

> comparable to some farm prices, but compared to the average grocery

> brand it is still twice as much.

>

[Guest guest]

In the NT cook book it says to let the sauerkraut ferment on the

counter for about 3 days. It also calls for whey and in the absence

of whey one could use an extra teaspoon of salt. My impression is

that the whey would add active cultures and that is the whole point

of eating lacto fermented vegetables in the first place. I don't

know if the kefir would be beneficial in this case, unless you could

strain some whey off of it.

Dora

--- In , " webriter " <webriter@...>

wrote:

>

>

>

> Thanks Haecklers, I appreciate that tip, I'm sure it was old

cabbage and broccol I've been trying to ferment. So would the water

kefir I have work to ferment them better, Especially if I find

fresher veggies?

> Katy

>

>

> >>>>>Fresh cabbage is much easier to ferment into sauerkraut with

salt

> than old store cabbage (some of it could be a year old!).<<<

> >

>

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> ----------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1270 - Release

Date:

> 2/10/2008 12:21 PM

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

How many of the regular commercial veggies/fruits are irradiated?

Does any one have info on this?

In the case that they are irradiated, will they still be potent and

benefitial?

Thanks

-Dan.

>

> Just to stretch out minds...

>

> Just suppose.. (-a hypothesis)..

>

> In the USA, the government wants to control the choice of food &

gets

> mean & shuts down all local farms. (this won't happen, but just for

> this case of hypothesis), and they order that people only buy from

> supermarkets which has commercial name-brand products.

>

> So, no grass-fed/free-range anything. Nothing organic.

>

> But you get all the foods from the superstores- animal and plant

> origin-all fats/protein/carbs.

>

> And the governement will not tell which foods have been GE or

> irradiated.

>

> Fast foods & Restaurants & doctors prosper, but everyone has the

> liberty to get any foods from the store to their home. Also there

> will be liberty to do exrecise-walk/run/workout etc.

>

> Also, let's add this to the case.

>

> The government has regulated that each county has only one health

> food store, and the prices are over-inflated. You can get

nutritional

> supplements, but it will have a very big price-tag. You can Kefir

> grains, CLO etc.

> _____________

>

> From a NN perspective, how would you cope up? Could you?

>

> What can you still do, in the above hypothetical situation(which I

> believe and trust will never happen) to maintain some/good decent

> health. Is it possible?

>

> How will you order your choices in the supermarket/health food

store,

> to get the most bang for the buck?

>

> How will you care for tender little children and growing-up teens

in

> this kind of a situation.?

>

> What will your over-all action plan be, to overcome the situation,

> and still maintain a healthy active lifestyle.

>

> My deeper thought/question, through this is, how much

can 'imperfect'

> whole foods, help and generate/keep health, if that is all the

choice

> a man is offered.

>

> This is a practical issue for people in inner-city or low-income or

> other family/relationship hardship situations where they may not

have

> access to 'healthy' whole foods all the time, but they may have the

> interest & ability, & be able to access less-than-ideal, but whole

> foods, in their situation. What hope can we offer them? How can

they

> raise above the situation, and still maintain decent health. How

will

> survival happen in such rough situation.?

>

> Thanks

> -Dan.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dan,

> How many of the regular commercial veggies/fruits are irradiated?

> Does any one have info on this?

>

> In the case that they are irradiated, will they still be potent and

> benefitial?

Great question for today as I just attended a seminar on the effects

of irradiation on fruit and someone in the audience asked that

question. The irradiation-of-fruit expert said that most tropical

fruits are irradiated because of the long shipping, but most domestic

fruits vulnerable to pests such as fruit flies in the skin (e.g.

grapefruit) are still treated with methyl bromide, which, although

toxic, is only in the peel so would not be consumed, but is being

phased out by 2015 because it damages the ozone layer and is toxic.

He did experiments using grapefruit to prevent chemically induced

colon cancer and found that the irradiated grapefruit did not really

work whereas the natural grapefruit did.

Chris

[Guest guest]

The two top choices for alternatives to methyl bromide now are more

toxic - proFume that leaves high amounts of ionic fluoride residue

and methyl fluoride which is even more toxic than methyl bromide

(yes, they had decided it was too dangerous to use but recently

reversed it due to insufficient alternatives).

>

> Hi Dan,

>

> > How many of the regular commercial veggies/fruits are irradiated?

> > Does any one have info on this?

> >

> > In the case that they are irradiated, will they still be potent

and

> > benefitial?

>

> Great question for today as I just attended a seminar on the effects

> of irradiation on fruit and someone in the audience asked that

> question. The irradiation-of-fruit expert said that most tropical

> fruits are irradiated because of the long shipping, but most

domestic

> fruits vulnerable to pests such as fruit flies in the skin (e.g.

> grapefruit) are still treated with methyl bromide, which, although

> toxic, is only in the peel so would not be consumed, but is being

> phased out by 2015 because it damages the ozone layer and is toxic.

> He did experiments using grapefruit to prevent chemically induced

> colon cancer and found that the irradiated grapefruit did not really

> work whereas the natural grapefruit did.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

> The irradiation-of-fruit expert said that most tropical

> fruits are irradiated because of the long shipping, but most

> domestic fruits vulnerable to pests such as fruit flies in the skin

>(e.g. grapefruit) are still treated with methyl bromide, which,

>although toxic, is only in the peel so would not be consumed, but is

>being phased out by 2015 because it damages the ozone layer and is

>toxic.

> He did experiments using grapefruit to prevent chemically induced

> colon cancer and found that the irradiated grapefruit did not really

> work whereas the natural grapefruit did.

Methyl bromide is a B5 antagonist too.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> Great question for today as I just attended a seminar on the effects

> of irradiation on fruit and someone in the audience asked that

> question. The irradiation-of-fruit expert said that most tropical

> fruits are irradiated because of the long shipping, but most domestic

> fruits vulnerable to pests such as fruit flies in the skin (e.g.

> grapefruit) are still treated with methyl bromide, which, although

> toxic, is only in the peel so would not be consumed, but is being

> phased out by 2015 because it damages the ozone layer and is toxic.

> He did experiments using grapefruit to prevent chemically induced

> colon cancer and found that the irradiated grapefruit did not really

> work whereas the natural grapefruit did.

>

> Chris

I don't know if you would know this, but would frozen tropical fruit

be subject to the same treatment? I'm guessing they freeze it and

then ship it but thats only because I know they freeze and ship

veggies that wouldn't last the overseas voyage easily.

Well I guess its just all the more pertinent to eat locally.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I don't know if you would know this, but would frozen tropical fruit

> be subject to the same treatment? I'm guessing they freeze it and

> then ship it but thats only because I know they freeze and ship

> veggies that wouldn't last the overseas voyage easily.

Sorry, I'm not sure. I think the main concern is in the thick peels,

which is where the fruit fly eggs are. So if it is peeled and frozen

locally and then shipped distance, it might be less likely to be

irradiated but that is just a guess.

Chris