Re: Vitamin K2 question

[Guest guest]

> From what I understand, vitamin K2 is synthesized by the intestinal flora.

> So, a deficiency of

> K2 might occur if one has compromised flora due to antibiotics and other

> factors that

> damage the gut flora.

There is no good evidence that this is nutritionally available to

humans (i.e absorbed, etc), so it is not a reliable source of K2.

> Assuming one's gut flora is normal (which is probably not a safe assumption

> in many

> people's case), what other mechanisms could lead to deficiency?

>

> If you could point me towards a helpful resource, I'd appreciate it.

Depending on where you draw the line of deficiency, everyone is

deficient. In other words, everyone in the general population who

doesn't supplement produces undercarboxylated proteins, indicating

that the vitamin K pool is not sufficient to keep up with the protein

production.

It is much worse with children, so being a child increases deficiency.

This is probably generally true of growth. I have argued that high

vitamin D intake without concomitant high K2 intake will induce

deficiency also.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Depending on where you draw the line of deficiency, everyone is

> deficient. In other words, everyone in the general population who

> doesn't supplement produces undercarboxylated proteins, indicating

> that the vitamin K pool is not sufficient to keep up with the protein

> production.

>

> It is much worse with children, so being a child increases deficiency.

> This is probably generally true of growth. I have argued that high

> vitamin D intake without concomitant high K2 intake will induce

> deficiency also.

Thanks for your reply, Chris. So what do you recommend for supplementation? I

take Dr.

Ron's Multi which has K2 in the MK-4 form at 100mcg. What are the relevant

issues when it

comes to supplementation? What about food-based sources? Is there something

written up

on this on your site, or on the WAPF site?

Best,

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi

> Thanks for your reply, Chris. So what do you recommend for supplementation?

> I take Dr.

> Ron's Multi which has K2 in the MK-4 form at 100mcg. What are the relevant

> issues when it

> comes to supplementation? What about food-based sources? Is there

> something written up

> on this on your site, or on the WAPF site?

That sounds good, but there is no research on how MK-4 supplementation

works in humans for normalizing K status. We should see this info

coming out over the next year or two. The " everyone has deficiency "

comment applies to the SAD, of course. So folks eating lots of

grass-fed animal fat should be in a better position. I think one

could safely take a few mg of MK-4, but I think need might depend on a

lot of different factors that affect the rate of vitamin K recycling

in each individual. I think there is an MK-4 that claims to be

food-based but I forget the brand name and I never got around to

verifying it (not sure how they could get such a high dose without a

massive price). MK-7 supplements are food-based (from natto, a

fermented soy product), and Jarrow makes one from soy that is not GMO.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> That sounds good, but there is no research on how MK-4 supplementation

> works in humans for normalizing K status. We should see this info

> coming out over the next year or two. The " everyone has deficiency "

> comment applies to the SAD, of course. So folks eating lots of

> grass-fed animal fat should be in a better position. I think one

> could safely take a few mg of MK-4, but I think need might depend on a

> lot of different factors that affect the rate of vitamin K recycling

> in each individual. I think there is an MK-4 that claims to be

> food-based but I forget the brand name and I never got around to

> verifying it (not sure how they could get such a high dose without a

> massive price). MK-7 supplements are food-based (from natto, a

> fermented soy product), and Jarrow makes one from soy that is not GMO.

>

Well, I'm very far from the SAD myself, and I'm not too worried about K in my

case. But I'm

thinking about patients I see in the acupuncture clinic, and what I can

recommend to

them. Of course I always suggest the NT diet, but compliance isn't spectacular.

Thanks again,

Chris

[Guest guest]

> That sounds good, but there is no research on how MK-4 supplementation

> works in humans for normalizing K status. We should see this info

> coming out over the next year or two. The " everyone has deficiency "

> comment applies to the SAD, of course. So folks eating lots of

> grass-fed animal fat should be in a better position. I think one

> could safely take a few mg of MK-4, but I think need might depend on a

> lot of different factors that affect the rate of vitamin K recycling

> in each individual. I think there is an MK-4 that claims to be

> food-based but I forget the brand name and I never got around to

> verifying it (not sure how they could get such a high dose without a

> massive price). MK-7 supplements are food-based (from natto, a

> fermented soy product), and Jarrow makes one from soy that is not GMO.

>

> Chris

>

is it safe to assume that fermented foods with a lot of K1

(such as kim-chi with dark leafy greens like kale) would have the most

K2?

-

[Guest guest]

> Well, I'm very far from the SAD myself, and I'm not too worried about K in

> my case. But I'm

> thinking about patients I see in the acupuncture clinic, and what I can

> recommend to

> them. Of course I always suggest the NT diet, but compliance isn't

> spectacular.

I like Thorne best, because it is liquid and I suspect it's

bioavailability is much higher than non-liquid supplements, and it is

an excellent buy on a per dose cost. Carlson's is cheaper, but the

minimum dose is much higher (5 mg vs 1 mg) and the bioavailability, I

suspect, much lower. For people who want all-natural, non-synthetic,

Jarrow is the best MK-7 product, but the dose is much lower and the

cost per dose much higher. I think there are one or two other good

MK-4 supplements that have been mentioned, but I would avoid the ones

that have a concomitant high dose of K1 (K1 should not exceed 1000 mcg

or 1 mg per day IMO).

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> is it safe to assume that fermented foods with a lot of K1

> (such as kim-chi with dark leafy greens like kale) would have the most

> K2?

No, the bacteria, as far as I know, synthesize the K2 de novo with no

respect to K1. The main determinants are species and length of time

fermenting.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> No, the bacteria, as far as I know, synthesize the K2 de novo with no

> respect to K1. The main determinants are species and length of time

> fermenting.

>

> Chris

So what you're saying here is that all fermented foods have K2, regardless of

whether they

contain K1 to start with? And that the longer the food is fermented, the more

K2 it will have?

Regarding supplementation, what is the recommended daily dose for someone on a

SAD not

consuming fermented foods?

Thanks,

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- Dawson wrote:

> > is it safe to assume that fermented foods with a lot of K1

> > (such as kim-chi with dark leafy greens like kale) would have the

> > most K2?

>

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> No, the bacteria, as far as I know, synthesize the K2 de novo with no

> respect to K1. The main determinants are species and length of time

> fermenting.

M, why would K2 from ferments be any better absorbed than K2

created by bacteria in the gut? I thought you indicated in an earlier

post that K2 created by bacteria in the gut may not be well absorbed.

Is it maybe because the K2 created in the gut is mainly created in the

colon where it is less likely to be absorbed? Or maybe different

bacteria produce differing amounts of K2 and the bacteria in ferments

are better K2 producers than typical bacteria in the gut?

[Guest guest]

> So what you're saying here is that all fermented foods have K2, regardless

> of whether they

> contain K1 to start with? And that the longer the food is fermented, the

> more K2 it will have?

Pretty much. It also depends very strongly on the species of

microorganism. However, all fermented foods appear to have some K2,

except sourdough bread (might not be fermented long enough?).

> Regarding supplementation, what is the recommended daily dose for someone on

> a SAD not

> consuming fermented foods?

There's too little research to say. Up to 45-90 mg/day has been used

in Japanese osteoporosis trials for 1-3 years with no apparent ill

effect, so toxicity doesn't seem to be an issue and shouldn't be for a

few milligrams, which would seem to be sufficient for virtually

anyone. Somewhere between 100 and 300 micrograms is probably a good

minimum, and some folks might want to try 1-3 milligrams, depending on

cost, the type they have, etc.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> M, why would K2 from ferments be any better absorbed than K2

> created by bacteria in the gut? I thought you indicated in an earlier

> post that K2 created by bacteria in the gut may not be well absorbed.

Because K2 in the gut is in large part not secreted but in bacterial

membranes and the bacteria do not pass through the stomach and are not

digested, and because the area in which the bacteria are active may

not be upstream from the area where K2 is best absorbed.

> Is it maybe because the K2 created in the gut is mainly created in the

> colon where it is less likely to be absorbed? Or maybe different

> bacteria produce differing amounts of K2 and the bacteria in ferments

> are better K2 producers than typical bacteria in the gut?

At least the first, possibly the second also.

Chris

[Guest guest]

this article was just added to the WAPF site

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamin-k2.html

>

>

> > Depending on where you draw the line of deficiency, everyone is

> > deficient. In other words, everyone in the general population who

> > doesn't supplement produces undercarboxylated proteins, indicating

> > that the vitamin K pool is not sufficient to keep up with the protein

> > production.

> >

> > It is much worse with children, so being a child increases deficiency.

> > This is probably generally true of growth. I have argued that high

> > vitamin D intake without concomitant high K2 intake will induce

> > deficiency also.

>

>

> Thanks for your reply, Chris. So what do you recommend for supplementation?

I take

Dr.

> Ron's Multi which has K2 in the MK-4 form at 100mcg. What are the relevant

issues

when it

> comes to supplementation? What about food-based sources? Is there something

written up

> on this on your site, or on the WAPF site?

>

> Best,

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

How much natto? Did you read about edam and gouda being the cheeses

highest in K? I heard it on NPR and hadn't gotten a chance to confirm

the info.

Desh

[Guest guest]

...I have argued that high

> vitamin D intake without concomitant high K2 intake will induce

> deficiency also.

>

>

Interesting. I've been meaning to post my own experience for a while.

I get pretty clear K2 deficiency signs, meaning blood vessels in my

hands will burst from time to time. M. suggested I supplement

with K2 and this lifelong problem went away. Whenever I stop

supplementing, it comes back pretty quick.

I've lately begun taking the Green Pastures skate liver oil and it's

allegedly high in K2 and very high in D. So I decided to experiment

and when I ran out of K2 caps, I didn't replace them just to see what

would come to pass. So far, so good. It's been about a month.

Difficulty: I took two skat oil caps daily all through winter but now

I've reduced the dosage to one, so we'll see what happens.

tb

[Guest guest]

I spent a long time reading the NT article on Activator X/Vit K2 and

had several AHA moments. I was on Coumadin for 9 years for a genetic

clotting disorder. Once I started an NT type diet, they could not get

my INR therapeutic. Finally, the side effects were so bad, I decided

to stop taking it and substituted CLO, garlic, Ginko and high dose Vit

E. Here's my question: I drink about 12 oz of milk kefir/day (extra

long ferment), up to 32 oz water kefir, 20oz Kombucha and about 2

servings/day of lacto-fermented beverages and I know most of these

provide some K2. I have no access to raw butter/cream but the milk is

raw. Do I need to supplement with K2? It seems like many of the

things I blamed on steroids may have actually been the result of

avoiding foods with Vit K such as tooth loss due to jaw bone

deterioration and frequent fractures in my feet. I know that the teeth

that were loose are no longer loose. After losing 3 molars, hopefully

I can keep the rest of my teeth. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Patty,

> I spent a long time reading the NT article on Activator X/Vit K2 and

> had several AHA moments. I was on Coumadin for 9 years for a genetic

> clotting disorder. Once I started an NT type diet, they could not get

> my INR therapeutic. Finally, the side effects were so bad, I decided

> to stop taking it and substituted CLO, garlic, Ginko and high dose Vit

> E. Here's my question: I drink about 12 oz of milk kefir/day (extra

> long ferment), up to 32 oz water kefir, 20oz Kombucha and about 2

> servings/day of lacto-fermented beverages and I know most of these

> provide some K2. I have no access to raw butter/cream but the milk is

> raw. Do I need to supplement with K2? It seems like many of the

> things I blamed on steroids may have actually been the result of

> avoiding foods with Vit K such as tooth loss due to jaw bone

> deterioration and frequent fractures in my feet. I know that the teeth

> that were loose are no longer loose. After losing 3 molars, hopefully

> I can keep the rest of my teeth. Thanks.

If you are in good health, no need to supplement. However, if you

still suffer from some symptoms that could be due to the coumadin, you

should try supplementing.

There was a rat experiment where they induced deficiency with some

type of coumadin drug for six weeks and looked at arterial

calcification, which the coumadin increased dramatically. In one

group, they took them off the drug and put them on a normal vitamin K2

intake for six weeks; in the other, they put them on a very high dose

of K2. The animals that had the high-dose K2 had regression of the

calcification. The animals not receiving the normal dose, however,

not only had no regression, but the calcification continued at the

very same rate as during the drug treatment.

This suggests, though it does not prove, that if you spend 9 years on

coumadin, you might have residual vitamin K deficiency for 9 more

years or more after you're off the drug.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the quick answer Chris...9 years? Now, that's a scary

thought, geesh. Ok now, for another question...If I supplement with K2

am I increasing my risk of blood clots at the same time and if so, is

there anything I can do to get the benefit of K2 without the risk?

Thanks again.

Patty

This suggests, though it does not prove, that if you spend 9 years on

coumadin, you might have residual vitamin K deficiency for 9 more

years or more after you're off the drug.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Patty,

> Thanks for the quick answer Chris...9 years? Now, that's a scary

> thought, geesh. Ok now, for another question...If I supplement with K2

> am I increasing my risk of blood clots at the same time and if so, is

> there anything I can do to get the benefit of K2 without the risk?

If you have a genetic condition where you have an increased production

of a clotting factor, and you have to constantly maintain a

K-deficient state through dietary deficiency or using coumadin drugs,

then supply a sufficient amount of vitamin K in either form will

increase your clotting. If, however, your clotting factors are normal

and you needed the drug for any other reason, the K2 should not

increase your clotting. It, as far as we know, does not increase the

production of clotting factors but only activates them. It is normal

for clotting factors to be 100% activated, so normally it doesn't make

a difference.

In the case of the aforementioned genetic problems, I'm not sure off

the top of my head. First, do you know into which category you fit?

Chris

[Guest guest]

> In the case of the aforementioned genetic problems, I'm not sure off

> the top of my head. First, do you know into which category you fit?

>

> Chris

I have a positive anti-cardiolipin antibody (anti-phospholipid

syndrome) and a questionable Protein C deficiency. I had spontaneous

bilateral pulmonary emboli in 1998 which is how they discovered it. I

have no DVT, no real risk factors and was only 43 years old. The last

time they tested the anti-body it was negative, but the rheumatologist

says it can come and go and I'd always be at increased risk. I don't

think Vit K has much to do with this at all other than it antagonized

Coumadin. Since I'm no longer on Coumadin, I'm thinking Vit K should

be fine, but I can't find definitive info. Thanks so much for your

help.

Patty

[Guest guest]

Patty,

> I have a positive anti-cardiolipin antibody (anti-phospholipid

> syndrome) and a questionable Protein C deficiency. I had spontaneous

> bilateral pulmonary emboli in 1998 which is how they discovered it. I

> have no DVT, no real risk factors and was only 43 years old. The last

> time they tested the anti-body it was negative, but the rheumatologist

> says it can come and go and I'd always be at increased risk. I don't

> think Vit K has much to do with this at all other than it antagonized

> Coumadin. Since I'm no longer on Coumadin, I'm thinking Vit K should

> be fine, but I can't find definitive info. Thanks so much for your

> help.

My recollection is that protein C is vitamin K-dependent. However, it

is needed to inhibit clotting further downstream from the initial

K-dependent pro-clotting factors, so coumadin would thin the blood

because it inhibits the intial factors and the need for the K-depenent

anti-clotting factors never arises.

If you are doing ok without the coumadin on a diet that does not

restrict vitamin K, then the supplement would probably not be a

problem. Just be careful, though.

Chris