RE: Re: POLITICS changed to State of the Economy

[Guest guest]

> Last week, I got a call from a

> group doing a survey. They asked the question: " Who do you think is

> responsible for the state of the economy? " The five or so multiple

> choice answers included 1)The spending habits of the American public

> or 2)The government.

>

> I'm curious if any of you have any responses or rationale

> to answer the question.

Yes - the international banking cartel known as the " Federal Reserve " is

responsible. If we are ever to have sound money again in this country, and

thus prosperity, Americans must understand what the Federal Reserve has been

doing to destroy the dollar, and then work toward abolishing the Fed.

Here is an excellent 1 hr. video that explains in detail. It will be

shocking to those who are not already familiar with how the Fed works and

the tyrannical rule they have over our economic life.

FIAT EMPIRE - Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. Constitution

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531

A few brief notes on the Fed from Ron :

Abolish the Fed

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html

More of the Same at the Federal Reserve

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul292.html

Suze

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/08, cstraq1 <cstraq@...> wrote:

> Last week, I got a call from a

> group doing a survey. They asked the question: " Who do you think is

> responsible for the state of the economy? " The five or so multiple

> choice answers included 1)The spending habits of the American public

> or 2)The government.

>

> I'm curious if any of you have any responses or rationale

> to answer the question.

The business cycle, which is the alternation between economic booms

and recessions, is largely controlled by the money supply, which in

turn is controlled by the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is a

privately owned consortium of international bankers to whom Congress

gave the legal authority over our money supply, including the

exclusive right to counterfeit, and which operates primarily in

secrecy. There is limited governmental control over it -- for

example, the president of the US has a partial role in appointing the

the chairman of the board.

The Fed creates bubbles by injecting money into the market, which

causes distortions in the market that recessions are inevitably

required to correct. The housing crisis is a perfect example.

However, Congress is complicit in the mess because they spend far more

money than they get, which requires either borrowing, primarily from

the Chinese, or the Fed printing more money to buy government bonds.

Congress is about to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, nicknames

for two corporations that were started by FDR in the New Deal in order

to distort the home market and encourage people to buy homes who would

otherwise rent, and were eventually privatized a few decades later.

Since they are bailed out by the government whenever they go under and

rather privileged under the law, this is a case of only privatizing

the profit while socializing the risk.

In any case, the dollar is doing poorly and is in a precarious

position. This trillion dollar bailout will require either massive

borrowing from the Chinese or massive money-printing by the Fed. Our

government is close to losing its AAA credit rating and more borrowing

might be a tough sell. The Fed has announced it will do whatever

needed of it, but it's pretty dangerous, because eventually the

international investors are going to lose total confidence in the

dollar and start dumping dollars -- then we could wind up with massive

inflation, and, in the best case, see inflation like in the 70s under

, and in the worst case, see inflation like in Germany after

WWI, where it too a wheelbarrow full of dollars to buy a loaf of

bread.

So the answer is, it is Congress and the Fed, i.e., Congress and the

international bankers. And of course the Bush Administrations

never-ending war, which Congress has to pay for.

In the mean time, more important priorities than answering telephone

polls might be:

-- Start reducing your lifestyle and saving money wherever possible.

-- Start accumulating storable food while it is still affordable.

-- Set yourself to become at least partially self-sufficient by

growing food and raising chickens, and otherwise form strong community

networks with local farmers.

-- Use any extra money you have from savings to buy gold and silver,

not as certificates, but take physical possession of it and keep it in

a safe place.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Suze,

> FIAT EMPIRE - Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. Constitution

> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I haven't watched that one

yet, but this one is also good:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553 & q= & hl=en

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> In the mean time, more important priorities than answering telephone

> polls might be:

>

> -- Start reducing your lifestyle and saving money wherever possible.

> -- Start accumulating storable food while it is still affordable.

> -- Set yourself to become at least partially self-sufficient by

> growing food and raising chickens, and otherwise form strong community

> networks with local farmers.

> -- Use any extra money you have from savings to buy gold and silver,

> not as certificates, but take physical possession of it and keep it in

> a safe place.

>

> Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I'm only one person, but I second and third what says here. We

discussed these types of preparations at our last WAPF chapter meeting last

week. I am putting in a garden and ordering whole lambs for the winter as a

start. I plan to start fermenting veggies soon for the winter as well. And

I'm working on a trade deal with a local farmer - web work for food.

Suze

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/08, Suze Fisher <suzefisher@...> wrote:

> I'm only one person, but I second and third what says here. We

> discussed these types of preparations at our last WAPF chapter meeting last

> week. I am putting in a garden and ordering whole lambs for the winter as a

> start. I plan to start fermenting veggies soon for the winter as well. And

> I'm working on a trade deal with a local farmer - web work for food.

For the other part of it, a good place to get gold and silver is

apmex. Canadian Maples are a convenient way to get gold at affordable

prices (i.e. in small amounts), and silver comes in Canadian Maple,

American Eagles, and others. You can get Canadian Maples in gold for

1/10 and 1/20 of an ounce. If you can afford it, 1/10 or more is a

better deal because the 1/20 are more expensive per weight. Other

coins in gold come in ounces, which are over $1000 a piece so

unreasonable for the average person. Silver is only around $20/ounce,

so the one-ounce coins are a reasonable thing to have in physical

possession in case of a worst-case scenario where the dollar becomes

completely worthless, silver coins fitting in the pocket are worth

small enough amounts to be a usable currency for small purchases. I'm

thinking of the worst case scenario.

It is, of course, possible that the dollar will recover and you'd lose

some money in the short-term buying gold and silver, but almost

certainly it would be a good long-term investment, and it's more

likely that the dollar will crash and you'll profit substantially even

if the worst-case scenario where you need to use them as physical

currency in the event of a disaster is much less probable.

In any case, this is like, if you have $100 to set aside that you

dont' need to spend for a couple months, etc.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Suze,

> Here is an excellent 1 hr. video that explains in detail. It will be

> shocking to those who are not already familiar with how the Fed works and

> the tyrannical rule they have over our economic life.

>

> FIAT EMPIRE - Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. Constitution

> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531

Another excellent video (41 minutes):

Money, Banking and the Federal Reserve

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553 & ei= & hl=en

A couple of excellent (and free) books on the topic:

What has Government Done to our Money

http://mises.org/money.asp

Honest Money

http://www.garynorth.com/public/512.cfm

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

> Congress is about to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, nicknames

> for two corporations that were started by FDR in the New Deal in order

> to distort the home market and encourage people to buy homes who would

> otherwise rent, and were eventually privatized a few decades later.

> Since they are bailed out by the government whenever they go under and

> rather privileged under the law, this is a case of only privatizing

> the profit while socializing the risk.

> In any case, the dollar is doing poorly and is in a precarious

> position. This trillion dollar bailout will require either massive

> borrowing from the Chinese or massive money-printing by the Fed. Our

> government is close to losing its AAA credit rating and more borrowing

> might be a tough sell.

I wonder how many people are aware of the number one investor in the

Fed's mortgage corporations - it is China. In fact I think the top 5

investors are foreign governments.

> The Fed has announced it will do whatever

> needed of it, but it's pretty dangerous, because eventually the

> international investors are going to lose total confidence in the

> dollar and start dumping dollars -- then we could wind up with massive

> inflation, and, in the best case, see inflation like in the 70s under

> , and in the worst case, see inflation like in Germany after

> WWI, where it too a wheelbarrow full of dollars to buy a loaf of

> bread.

You don't have to go back to WWI to find an example of the destruction

of hyperinflation. Try Yugoslavia in the 1990's (note - this is not

for the faint of heart):

" Hyperinflation is a common concept, but an illustrative example is

necessary to show just how quickly it can wreak its havoc. A recent

example would be the early 1990s in Yugoslavia when the nation was

slipping into civil war. If you plotted Yugoslavia's retail prices,

money supply and the black market exchange rate for its currency using

a base of 100 in 1991, you'd see that all these measures inflated to

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or more by 1994. It can happen that

fast.

" Compare this to today: while U.S. inflation runs between 4 – 10 % per

year (depending on whom you believe), Yugoslavia's inflation in 1993

reached 2% per hour, with retail prices doubling every two days.

" The destroyed Yugoslavian dinar was finally pegged to the German

Deutsche Mark on a one-to-one basis in 1994, secured by Yugoslavia's

scant foreign reserves and renamed the " novi dinar. "

" But even though this move stemmed hyperinflation, it required 1.2 x

1027 of the pre-1990 currency to purchase just one novi dinar. So much

for your dinari-denominated life savings. This hyperinflationary

tsunami wiped out generations of accumulated wealth in three short

years. "

http://caseyresearch.com/displayCcs.php?id=17

> In the mean time, more important priorities than answering telephone

> polls might be:

>

> -- Start reducing your lifestyle and saving money wherever possible.

I'm not sure what you mean about reducing lifestyle, but I find lots

of people are often lured into a false sense of frugality. They cut

corners here and there, become frugal and even virtual cheapskates,

but when it comes to savings they barely have two nickels to rub

together.

There is only one real way, financially speaking, to invest in the

future and prepare for any potential crises, spend less than you earn

and save the difference. Everything else, in my opinion, is a false

sense of frugality.

The best advice I ever got was give 10% (keeps you connected to

something larger than you), save 10% (shows a commitment to you and

your family's future) and spend the rest as you please.

And if you can't start with 10% go 5%. If that doesn't work try 2.5%.

If that doesn't work save the change in your pocket each day, but

above all do something. I would also recommend for those who have no

savings at all to take a side job, have a garage sale, donate blood,

just do whatever it takes to establish an emergency stash that you do

not touch no matter what. It will make an immediate psychological

difference and a strong financial difference in the long run.

> -- Start accumulating storable food while it is still affordable.

Having gone through a period like we are currently in twice in my life

(most recently with the year 2000 scare), I will say that there is a

learning curve on how to store food long term. I would read and

educate myself before jumping in.

> -- Set yourself to become at least partially self-sufficient by

> growing food and raising chickens, and otherwise form strong community

> networks with local farmers.

Since we are in a burgeoning police state I would suggest something

equally important, establishing a strong community network period, not

just with local farmers.

You need to be a part of a community, something larger than your

family, that you can count on and know that they have your back no

matter what. Major crises are difficult to survive on your own and/or

just with your family, especially when they are exacerbated by a

police state.

Churches, charitable associations, neighborhood community groups,

etc., are all potential possibilities but you need to get know these

folks beforehand and establish solid relationships before a crisis

occurs, and most importantly, they need to share the same mindset as

you do so you will have good idea how they will react in a crisis.

To those who don't, my suggestion is to keep your ideas and actions to

yourself, even if they are family members, in which case just put them

on a need to know basis while trying to ***casually*** educate them to

your way of thinking.

> -- Use any extra money you have from savings to buy gold and silver,

> not as certificates, but take physical possession of it and keep it in

> a safe place.

And that does not mean a safety deposit box - they are NOT safe places.

> Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Good all around advice. Thanks Chris.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:46 PM, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> " But even though this move stemmed hyperinflation, it required 1.2 x

> 1027 of the pre-1990 currency to purchase just one novi dinar. So much

> for your dinari-denominated life savings. This hyperinflationary

> tsunami wiped out generations of accumulated wealth in three short

> years. "

The above didn't come out right. It should read " 1.2 x 10 to the 27th power! "

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

,

> You don't have to go back to WWI to find an example of the destruction

> of hyperinflation. Try Yugoslavia in the 1990's (note - this is not

> for the faint of heart):

You don't have to go back at all:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/07/19/zimbabwe.banknotes/index.html

Zimbabwe introduces $100 billion banknotes

As high as they are, though, the bills still aren't enough to buy a

loaf of bread. They can buy only four oranges.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> You don't have to go back at all:

>

> http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/07/19/zimbabwe.banknotes/index.html

>

> Zimbabwe introduces $100 billion banknotes

>

> As high as they are, though, the bills still aren't enough to buy a

> loaf of bread. They can buy only four oranges.

Funny, I was just recently reading about the huge black market in

Zimbabwe as a result of the hyperinflation and the way people are

coping, some even prospering as a result.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

> For the other part of it, a good place to get gold and silver is

> apmex. Canadian Maples are a convenient way to get gold at affordable

> prices (i.e. in small amounts), and silver comes in Canadian Maple,

> American Eagles, and others. You can get Canadian Maples in gold for

> 1/10 and 1/20 of an ounce. If you can afford it, 1/10 or more is a

> better deal because the 1/20 are more expensive per weight. Other

> coins in gold come in ounces, which are over $1000 a piece so

> unreasonable for the average person.

I would only buy Canadian and American gold coins if that is all that

is available to you at the size you can afford. They carry a higher

premium than other foreign coins at all sizes and smaller coins carry

a higher premium than larger coins. And you should never buy a pure

gold coin, unless you are a collector, otherwise they will scratch and

have their resale/trade value reduced.

> Silver is only around $20/ounce,

> so the one-ounce coins are a reasonable thing to have in physical

> possession in case of a worst-case scenario where the dollar becomes

> completely worthless, silver coins fitting in the pocket are worth

> small enough amounts to be a usable currency for small purchases. I'm

> thinking of the worst case scenario.

If you can get them in affordable amounts, pre-1965 US silver coins

are the way to go.

> It is, of course, possible that the dollar will recover and you'd lose

> some money in the short-term buying gold and silver, but almost

> certainly it would be a good long-term investment, and it's more

> likely that the dollar will crash and you'll profit substantially even

> if the worst-case scenario where you need to use them as physical

> currency in the event of a disaster is much less probable.

In a disaster, gold is a way of " transporting " your wealth from one

side of the crisis to another. It should be looked at more as long

term storage than something to be used during a crisis. Silver coins

serve that purpose much better. Besides, in the midst of a serious

disaster, where food is scarce, people will ***not*** be exchanging

food for gold in the midst of such a crisis unless they have a pretty

good surplus (and a crystal ball into the future), which most people

won't.

Any source of information on how to survive economic and political

disasters such as financial collapses that doesn't start with food

sufficiency and thinks you will be able to buy food in the middle of a

collapse because you own some pretty metals, isn't very credible in my

opinion.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

Carol,

> Thanks everybody - great conversation! I am currently getting my

> silver and gold from Moneychanger. It's great because you can send a

> check monthly and they send it to you. I really haven't checked out

> other prices - so if anyone has any thoughts, please pass them on. He

> also has a free daily report on what's happening with the markets. The

> site is the-moneychanger.com. It's sad what we have become as a nation

> - but even sadder to sit with your head in the sand! Carol S.

I think the easiest way to start with metals is to buy pre-1965 or

1964 US 90% silver coin in quarters, dimes, and half dollars,

otherwise known as junk silver. These are relatively inexpensive,

easily negotiable and recognizable. A bag of these consists of $1000

face value BUT I noticed that the website you linked to allows people

to buy a portion of a bag, which is a good deal.

Wow, I didn't know lin was still around. Thanks for the link.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/08, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Carol,

>

>> Thanks everybody - great conversation! I am currently getting my

>> silver and gold from Moneychanger. It's great because you can send a

>> check monthly and they send it to you. I really haven't checked out

>> other prices - so if anyone has any thoughts, please pass them on. He

>> also has a free daily report on what's happening with the markets. The

>> site is the-moneychanger.com. It's sad what we have become as a nation

>> - but even sadder to sit with your head in the sand! Carol S.

>

> I think the easiest way to start with metals is to buy pre-1965 or

> 1964 US 90% silver coin in quarters, dimes, and half dollars,

> otherwise known as junk silver. These are relatively inexpensive,

> easily negotiable and recognizable. A bag of these consists of $1000

> face value BUT I noticed that the website you linked to allows people

> to buy a portion of a bag, which is a good deal.

I don't know what his prices are because you have to email him. I

would check out www.apmex.com and compare prices. Apmex sells coins

as single coins or larger batches. In general, the price is only a

small premium above the spot price and it increases the less you buy.

So you pay more for 2 1/20 oz gold coins than for one 1/10 oz. You

buy whatever you want whenever you want and get it in a few days --

sounds much more convenient.

That said, I would check out the site linked to and read the article

" who is the moneychanger? " Fascinating story! I would buy from this

guy just for the sake of supporting him, if it isn't prohibitively

inconvenient or expensive.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> Any source of information on how to survive economic and political

> disasters such as financial collapses that doesn't start with food

> sufficiency and thinks you will be able to buy food in the middle of a

> collapse because you own some pretty metals, isn't very credible in my

> opinion.

I didn't read that anywhere, I was just thinking it through myself. I

agree that in a disaster where food is scarce, no one is going to sell

it for silver coins. However, there are different levels of disaster.

In a disaster where people will sell four oranges for $100 million

dollars in paper money, I think they'll sell some meat and potatoes

for a little silver.

Chris

[Guest guest]

The writer below recommends at least a month of food reserves and

believes 3 months would be better in light of the looming bank crisis.

--

____________________

Thinking Clearly About Bank Failures and Deposit Insurance

North

www.garynorth.com

July 21, 2008

Today, I have re-printed my 2006 article on the FDIC. It surveys what

by now the public should know but doesn't: the FDIC has very limited

reserves. If we get half a dozen failures comparable to IndyMac, the

FDIC will be busted.

At that point, Congress will intervene. It will pass legislation that

will re-capitalize the FDIC. The President will sign the bill. The

Federal deficit will rise. But it's rising so rapidly already that

this will hardly be noticed.

The FDIC will survive. The future of the dollar is the #1 issue now.

At some point the Federal Reserve System will have to start creating

new money. There is some indication that this has begun to happen. The

talk about its supposedly loose policies since the crisis began in

August, 2007, has been misleading.

Look at the adjusted monetary base. It jumped recently. This may be a

new direction. We cannot do more than guess until we see this extended

for at least two months. The FED often reverses itself. Here is the

chart.

www.garynorth.com

If we get cascading cross defaults, this could paralyze the banks.

It's a long shot, but it is a possibility. This is why you need gold

coins, silver coins, currency in small bills, and at least a month's

supply of food in reserve. I recommend three months' supply.

A complete breakdown of the banks would be catastrophic. You hedge

against this by living in the country, having a garden, and having

solar power -- survivalism. Most people are not ready to do this.

But, in between Congress's bailout of the FDIC and mass inflation by

the FED, we have time and capital to allocate. You would be wise to

allocate some of your time and money to deal with a scenario in which

there is a major bank failure, Congress is caught flat-footed, and the

FDIC goes broke. It cannot intervene fast enough to keep the bank's

doors open for a week. Lines will form. Rumors will spread. That will

create a worldwide financial panic.

Anyone who says this cannot happen should think " Bear Stearns. " It

took an emergency weekend bailout to keep panic from hitting -- or so

Bernanke has said. There can be another Bear Stearns crisis. I think

there will be over the next year or two. There could be more than one.

An FDIC-insured bank account is safer than other digital accounts. But

you still need non-digital money in reserve. You also need basic

foodstuffs. The banking system is vulnerable and will get more

vulnerable.

[Guest guest]

this is really freaking me out. i feel like, what's the point?! if it gets to a

point where a loaf of bread costs a wheelbarrow full of cash, then what's the

point in having our own garden or stockpile of food? at that point we won't be

able to afford electricity or water, right? we wouldn't be able to keep our

fridges running or keep our gardens watered. this is so beyond my own

comprehension i have no idea where to start! when i go through my day to day

life i look around and wonder what a financial crisis like this would look like.

it seems like everything is just running along so smoothly right now...do

businesses just shut down? do grocery stores just sell everything off the

shelves until there is nothing left? do people start looting and rioting? do the

schools shut down and all the kids just have to stay home? does *every* business

go bankrupt? i am guessing the vast majority of people in this country are not

willing to just start buying gold and silver and saving every penny except for

what is needed for the absolutely necessary things. why isn't the media

reporting on this? why aren't they warning people and having examples of how to

deal with a crisis like this on all the talk shows? (those are somewhat

rhetorical since i know how corrupt the media is) but seriously!!! i have a 3 yo

and i am scared out of my mind! we are TTC right now and i keep wondering if

it's even a good idea to have another baby. i don't deal with stress well and i

am becoming depressed whenever i read about all this stuff. if i don't keep

myself informed i feel like i have my head in the sand, and if i keep up with it

all it overwhelmes me and i feel hopeless. my parents have quite a bit of money

but i think it's all on paper. so they will pretty much be SOL. we have stocks

and bonds, but is it really practical to sell them all and put the cash in our

mattresses?

amanda

>>The writer below recommends at least a month of food reserves and

believes 3 months would be better in light of the looming bank crisis.

--

____________________

.

[Guest guest]

,

> this is really freaking me out. i feel like, what's the point?! if it gets

> to a point where a loaf of bread costs a wheelbarrow full of cash, then

> what's the point in having our own garden or stockpile of food?

To be able to eat.

> at that

> point we won't be able to afford electricity or water, right?

That's possible, or people will develop or better utilize efficient

ways of getting both. There are ways to get water without electricity

and people have lived their lives without electricity for most of

history. Also, there are different levels of disaster and crisis, and

one where nobody has any water or electricity is a much more dire

scenario than one of hyperinflation or food prices going up much

faster than income. So to say it makes no sense to prepare for a

crisis because there is such thing as a crisis that can't be prepared

for doesn't make much sense. Any of us could die in a car crash

tomorrow, but we don't give up living.

>we wouldn't be

> able to keep our fridges running or keep our gardens watered. this is so

> beyond my own comprehension i have no idea where to start!

They still buy oranges in Zimbabwe even though they cost $250,000 a

piece. People earn higher levels of money in an inflationary crisis

to make up for it. Of course, if you had any savings they'd be

decimated, so it would be wise to put them into precious metals if it

looked like that could happen.

when i go through

> my day to day life i look around and wonder what a financial crisis like

> this would look like. it seems like everything is just running along so

> smoothly right now...do businesses just shut down? do grocery stores just

> sell everything off the shelves until there is nothing left? do people start

> looting and rioting? do the schools shut down and all the kids just have to

> stay home? does *every* business go bankrupt?

I don't think there has ever been a crisis where every business went

bankrupt. Of course all those other things could be possibilties, I

don't know how probable any given one might be.

i am guessing the vast

> majority of people in this country are not willing to just start buying gold

> and silver and saving every penny except for what is needed for the

> absolutely necessary things. why isn't the media reporting on this?

Why would they? First that would hasten a crisis because people would

worry. Second, they want you to think the opposite, because if

everyone converts the dollar to gold, all the smoke and mirrors behind

the Federal Reserve will be gone and everyone will realize the emperor

has no clothes. People will want to go back on the gold standard and

abolish the Fed, and that would reverse almost 100 years of successful

conspiracy to overthrow the United States on the part of international

bankers. To the extent these bankers have influence or control of the

media, do you think they would hasten such a reversal of their

generations of conspiracy?

> why

> aren't they warning people and having examples of how to deal with a crisis

> like this on all the talk shows?

Well it kind of depends on who you listen to. If you listen to

, he's saying get 7 years worth of food and water stored

including dehydrated foods and seeds. If you read North, he's

saying get three months of food. If you listen to NPR, they're

playing classical music and talking about things that intellectual

fairly liberal folks like to think about. If you're watching Kramer,

he's saying sell all stocks, sell everything, like he's never ever

said before. If you're watching most shows, they're saying predatory

lending is the problem behind everything and what is needed is large

government bailouts and more regulations.

Why on earth would they tell you to protect yourself when that would

suggest to people that they have their own responsibilities and power

over their lives, which would totally undermine the idea they are

currently pushing, which is that this is government's role?

But if you think about it, we saw a crisis in Katrina. Wal-Mart tried

delivering truckfuls of water and FEMA turned them away. Others send

lots of doctors and FEMA turned them away.

If you have your own water, FEMA is less likely to steal it from you

than stop Wal Mart from giving it to you, so it makes some sense to

have some self-sufficiency and community sufficiency. Of course, the

media reports lots of gun crime and pushes the disarmament of the

American people, so you know, if " someone " wants to steal your

water...

> (those are somewhat rhetorical since i know

> how corrupt the media is) but seriously!!! i have a 3 yo and i am scared out

> of my mind! we are TTC right now and i keep wondering if it's even a good

> idea to have another baby. i don't deal with stress well and i am becoming

> depressed whenever i read about all this stuff. if i don't keep myself

> informed i feel like i have my head in the sand, and if i keep up with it

> all it overwhelmes me and i feel hopeless. my parents have quite a bit of

> money but i think it's all on paper. so they will pretty much be SOL. we

> have stocks and bonds, but is it really practical to sell them all and put

> the cash in our mattresses?

No, the cash could be worthless next year. I would not hold cash.

Of course, there is a spectrum:

Almost definite: large recession last half of year. Would be a good

thing, because we've been holding one off for 7 years kinda-sorta and

a real one would allow real recovery.

Almost definite: Further devaluation of the dollar and inflation,

further rising oil prices and food prices.

Somewhat probable: war with Iran. Especially beginning just before

election time to give McCain a chance, who has more ties to Project

for a New American Century (the folks who pushed the Iraq War policy

and were hoping for " a new pearl harbor " that would catalyze America's

rise to world dominance and the militarization of space in a public

document the year before 9/11 happened) folks that Obama is less

connected to.

Somewhat probable: stagflation. Bad inflation with no growth in the

economy like in the 1970s under .

Very possible: Extended depression at a global level.

Reasonably possible: Depression the scale of the Great Depression.

Somewhat possible: Hyperinflation like current Zimbabwae, 1990s

Yugoslavia, or post-WWI Germany.

Small possibility: More massive crisis involving a combination of

these things where food and water might be limited, at least on the

market.

Then, of course, to what extent the police state and reactions like

martial law and so on escalate, or to what extent they might reverse,

affects how all this develops. Obama getting elected has a chance to

help it recede, but I think the probability is just that it will

escalate more slowly under him than it would under McCain, and I'm

trying to be optimistic.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> > why

> > aren't they warning people and having examples of how to deal with a

crisis

> > like this on all the talk shows?

>

> Well it kind of depends on who you listen to. If you listen to

> , he's saying get 7 years worth of food and water stored

> including dehydrated foods and seeds. If you read North, he's

> saying get three months of food. If you listen to NPR, they're

> playing classical music and talking about things that intellectual

> fairly liberal folks like to think about.

LOL! So true...

>

> Then, of course, to what extent the police state and reactions like

> martial law and so on escalate, or to what extent they might reverse,

> affects how all this develops. Obama getting elected has a chance to

> help it recede, but I think the probability is just that it will

> escalate more slowly under him than it would under McCain, and I'm

> trying to be optimistic.

I'm not quite clear on whether you are saying that you think Obama getting

elected would make the recession recede or the martial law recede? I think

he's made it clear that he's going to *increase* martial law with his well

funded national civilian Stasi so I assume you mean the recession will

progress more slowly under him?

If so, how? He's got plans to spend fiat money like nobody's business and I

assume he'll have to borrow it from the Fed and we'll be paying massive

interest on that in addition to the interest on our already 9+ trillion

dollar debt for countless generations to come.

Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Suze,

> I'm not quite clear on whether you are saying that you think Obama getting

> elected would make the recession recede or the martial law recede? I think

> he's made it clear that he's going to *increase* martial law with his well

> funded national civilian Stasi so I assume you mean the recession will

> progress more slowly under him?

I don't think he's made anything clear about that. As far as I know,

he made a one or two-sentence statement on this and hasn't elaborated.

Other folks are embellishing this into " stasi " and " youth brigade "

and other words he didn't use. As far as I know, he simply said that

we cannot rely on our military, but need a civilian security source

that is just as large and just as well-funded.

Well, I have no idea what that means and it doesn't even make any

sense. Even if it consists of as many people, what would they need

all that money for? Are they going to be driving around in tanks and

fighter jets? What is their function?

Finally, is that remotely realistic to implement? Would Congress vote

to fund it? Probably not.

So, I think that if Obama can realistically create a civilian security

force that is going to be spying on their neighbors for signs of

terrorism or assist in suppressing organized protests and/or assist in

installation of martial law or whatever, then I'd be afraid of Obama

being worse than McCain. However, since that seems implausible to me

for the moment and since his statement was so vague, I'm more

concerned with the established and ongoing elements of the police

state.

> If so, how? He's got plans to spend fiat money like nobody's business and I

> assume he'll have to borrow it from the Fed and we'll be paying massive

> interest on that in addition to the interest on our already 9+ trillion

> dollar debt for countless generations to come.

Yeah, I think Obama would probably be an economic disaster, worse than

McCain. Obama has absolute NO plans to shrink our military

expenditures, but merely divert current Iraq expenditures into

Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. He will be like W. Bush but

double.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> this is really freaking me out. i feel like, what's the point?! if it gets

> to a point where a loaf of bread costs a wheelbarrow full of cash, then

> what's the point in having our own garden or stockpile of food?

Keep in mind the world is not coming to an end, and unless you plan on

committing suicide you need to have a plan to keep going on in a

crisis. The purpose of having your own garden and storing food is so

that you can eat (and make your own bread) when buying bread would

cost you a wheelbarrow of cash.

My sister for example is getting a goat and chickens, and she lives in

the city about 20 minutes from me. Both of my sisters have big lots

with lots of room for a garden. They live by a freshwater lake. So do

I. You do what you can do with what you have available to you.

Thanks to my family being snowed in when I was in college (unbeknown

to me) and unable to get to the store to buy food, and the enormous

preparations I took for the possible y2k threat (and which they did

toward the end though not at the same level as me), my family has no

problem understanding the need to prepare for a crisis.

> at that

> point we won't be able to afford electricity or water, right? we wouldn't be

> able to keep our fridges running or keep our gardens watered. this is so

> beyond my own comprehension i have no idea where to start!

You start with a calm disposition and a firm resolve to DO something

rather than worry, which doesn't solve anything but certainly affects

you and those around you in a negative way. Fear and worry are the

last things you need in a crisis.

Rarely is water an issue, and there might be utility issues here and

there, but again we are not talking a total economic collapse. If

water is an issue then things are VERY serious. I have a water filter

I bought in 1999 that will sterilize water from any source, including

pools of muddy water off the street. As the magic day got closer

supplies of the filter dried up, but thankfully I never had to use it

for emergency purposes.

What happens in a depression (originally depression was the term used

to replace financial panic, to soften the idea, now recession is used

to replace depression) is that malinvestment in the economy gets

readjusted. The wealth and creativity don't go away but those who

planned using bad information (normally caused by gov't intervention)

get weeded out and wealth and opportunity gets transferred not lost

EXCEPT if you are holding failing money, like dollars or whathaveyou.

For example someone who bet on a continual boom and lived and invested

accordingly is going to have his wealth transferred to someone who bet

otherwise. Banks who lent long at fixed rates will get killed because

in an inflationary environment you have cheaper dollars paying the

same fixed amount. Being a lender is not a good idea in an

inflationary environment.

> when i go through

> my day to day life i look around and wonder what a financial crisis like

> this would look like. it seems like everything is just running along so

> smoothly right now...do businesses just shut down?

> do grocery stores just

> sell everything off the shelves until there is nothing left?

> do people start

> looting and rioting?

> do the schools shut down and all the kids just have to

> stay home?

Hmmm....maybe there is a silver lining to this after all :-)

> does *every* business go bankrupt?

No, even in the Great Depression most people were still working.

Developing a scenario of what you might think the future looks like,

and planning in accordance with that scenario is a good thing. But it

can take a while to really get up to speed in terms of specifics, and

ultimately in the end you really don't know. I think the first thing a

person should do with a crisis looming on the horizon is implement

what I call an all weather strategy which works in good times and bad.

It looks something like this:

1. Don't be isolated.

If you are single like me, find a soul mate and get married. You need

community at all times and especially so in a crisis and the first

community to start with is marriage. Never has that been impressed

upon me the way it has the last 2.5 years of my life. If you do marry

do so without the state. Get a family bible and have the date recorded

at the front by a pastor or priest. It is every bit as legally binding

as a marriage certificate, only you can thumb your nose at the state

in the process and send the message they have no business being

involved in your relationships. Then have a child, at home if at all

possible.

Both those acts are revolutionary and life affirming, and say that no

matter how bad the crisis is or will become, you still have faith and

hope in the future.

2. If you are already married strengthen that bond. Get rid of all the

emotional, psychological and spiritual baggage that has accumulated

over the years. Renew your vows if need be. If you don't have kids,

have some. If that isn't possible, adopt. If you are beyond those

years go visit your grandchildren. Invest in them. Give them hope for

the future. There parents probably could use the help anyway :-)

3. Strengthen your larger community, your extended family if nearby

and then something like your church.

Most of the people in my church are from the former Soviet Union and

are no stranger to hardship. Everything talked about in this thread

they have already experienced to some degree. Its old hat to them. We

share the same faith and basic commitments about life. That is the

kind of like minded community you need to be a part of if a potential

crisis comes to pass..

That's the communal side. That's good stuff no matter what is going on

around you. The financial side has largely been addressed which is

also good stuff no matter what is going on economically or

politically.

> i am guessing the vast

> majority of people in this country are not willing to just start buying gold

> and silver and saving every penny except for what is needed for the

> absolutely necessary things.

You are right, the vast majority of people probably won't do much, but

what does that have to do with you? By being on this list you have

already demonstrated a level of independent thinking and action that

most people simply won't do.

You don't have to bleed yourself dry with saving. As I mentioned in a

previous post, save 10%, give 10%, and do what you please with the

rest. The one advantage you have right now is time. Not a lot but more

than most folks will get if things go bad. So save, sell things to get

a stash, adjust your lifestyle if need be, and then do what you can

do. Unless you are on the bare edge, no need to become completely

austere in your lifestyle.

> my parents have quite a bit of

> money but i think it's all on paper. so they will pretty much be SOL. we

> have stocks and bonds, but is it really practical to sell them all and put

> the cash in our mattresses?

Paper dollars not a good idea. Gold, silver, some foreign currencies,

even real estate as the bottom continues to drop out and great deals

start hitting the marketplace. But don't hold dollars IMO (except for

small amounts of cash), unless you have a lot of money and have the

ability to diversify and want to convince your banker that you are a

reliable source for taking those REO's (bank owned real estate) off

her hands.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

> Yeah, I think Obama would probably be an economic disaster, worse than

> McCain. Obama has absolute NO plans to shrink our military

> expenditures,

And McCain does????

At this stage of the ballgame I'm not sure which is scarier, the cult

of personality surrounding Obama, or the weird totalitarian

awkwardness of McCain.

I think either way we get McBama, and more endless war until we are bankrupted.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

,

>> Yeah, I think Obama would probably be an economic disaster, worse than

>> McCain. Obama has absolute NO plans to shrink our military

>> expenditures,

> And McCain does????

No, but Obama is promising a greater increase in other spending. What

I mean is that Obama is not going to shift some of the warfare

spending into welfare spending; instead, he's going to increase both,

whereas McCain will increase welfare spending less and increase

warfare spending probably about the same.

> At this stage of the ballgame I'm not sure which is scarier, the cult

> of personality surrounding Obama, or the weird totalitarian

> awkwardness of McCain.

>

> I think either way we get McBama, and more endless war until we are

> bankrupted.

I'm more scared of McCain, because I think he has more connections to

the PNAC folks and the folks running the Bush Administration. But I'm

not convinced there is a huge difference. The other thing is, I will

probably vote presuming this mess is somewhat partisan, since that's

the only hope that voting really carries.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Well it kind of depends on who you listen to. If you listen to

> , he's saying get 7 years worth of food and water stored

> including dehydrated foods and seeds.

That is very close to the advice that North gave for the

potential y2k crisis.

> If you read North, he's

> saying get three months of food.

Yeah, a little more conservative with his advice these days, lol.

> If you listen to NPR, they're

> playing classical music and talking about things that intellectual

> fairly liberal folks like to think about.

My only prolonged exposure to NPR a few years back was an education to

say the least. I even mentioned it in an article I wrote for

lewrockwell.com: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/miles3.html

> If you're watching Kramer,

> he's saying sell all stocks, sell everything, like he's never ever

> said before.

IMO, the guy is downright kooky.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

Have been following this thread with much interest - I have been trying to

convince husband to buy silver & gold since February. He's not on board.

Many cannot believe or accept the fact (despite all the signs) that American

can do anything but flourish. Nevertheless, I am interested in the food

side of preparations. Anyone care to tell me how exactly they have

prepared/stockpiled food? Anyone care to post an inventory list of what

they have accumulated? It would be helpful to me if I had a checklist of

sorts - with ideal storage methods. I am a Weston Pricer so I eat that

way - and buy most of my grains in bulk (50 lb. bags). I have a family of

five. We live in the city but my mother lives in the Cumberland mountains -

this is what we consider to be our " safe place " if we need to go someplace.

But then, what about all our food storages? It's a lot to consider as the

economic crisis is occurring now. More people are waking up to the lies

we've been sold for so long. Anyway, whoever posts with an inventory - I

promise not to make a national database of your goods for future use - lol.

Nanette

Re: Re: POLITICS changed to State of the Economy

> Well it kind of depends on who you listen to. If you listen to

> , he's saying get 7 years worth of food and water stored

> including dehydrated foods and seeds.

That is very close to the advice that North gave for the

potential y2k crisis.

> If you read North, he's

> saying get three months of food.

Yeah, a little more conservative with his advice these days, lol.

> If you listen to NPR, they're

> playing classical music and talking about things that intellectual

> fairly liberal folks like to think about.

My only prolonged exposure to NPR a few years back was an education to

say the least. I even mentioned it in an article I wrote for

lewrockwell.com: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/miles3.html

> If you're watching Kramer,

> he's saying sell all stocks, sell everything, like he's never ever

> said before.

IMO, the guy is downright kooky.

--

There's nothing like visiting a foreign country like China to get an

appreciation of what it's like to live under an authoritarian regime.

I was reminded of this when I arrived home and found that the TSA had

rifled through my baggage.

- Tabarrok

[Guest guest]

,

>> Well it kind of depends on who you listen to. If you listen to

>> , he's saying get 7 years worth of food and water stored

>> including dehydrated foods and seeds.

>

> That is very close to the advice that North gave for the

> potential y2k crisis.

The difference is in the nature of the crisis they're warning about.

I sure hope we see a bank failure instead of whatever is

envisioning if we have the choice.

>> If you're watching Kramer,

>> he's saying sell all stocks, sell everything, like he's never ever

>> said before.

>

> IMO, the guy is downright kooky.

>

>

LOL. Well he was wrong there. But what's really funny is he says

they're not in trouble; if anything, they'll get taken over. What? I

would call a company that looks like they're going to get taken over

in a whole lot of trouble!!!

Chris