was RELIGION ? Re: PREDICTED FAMINE Now speaking of wings

[Guest guest]

On 3/15/08, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> It struck me how profound the difference

> was between her response to the tragedy and the typical American

> who'd probably want to see the president " burning in hell " or

> something similar.

I think Americans are very diverse, but you are right that there is

this strain of thinking (although it probably exists in Panama

too...). I was on my way home from the last WAPF conference and I

happened about the radio show of Jay Seculo, who heads an organization

housed at Pat on's Regeant University to effect an Evangelical

influence on American law. Someone called in and said the only thing

she regrets about being saved is that she won't be there after the

rapture to see all the secularists burn in the fire and brimstone (I'm

paraphrasing, I don't remember her exact words for describing what she

wished she could see happen to them).

I was just reading last night, by contrast, in _Wounded by Love: The

Life and the Wisdom of Elder Porphyrios_:

" The important thing is for us to enter into the Church -- to unite

ourselves with our fellow men, with the joys and sorrows of each and

everyone, to feel that they are our own, to pray for everyone, to have

care for their salvation, to forget about ourselves, to do everything

for them just as Christ did for us. ... No one should wish to be

saved alone without all others being saved. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > The more I read the Bible the more it stands out to me to judge the

>> > acts not the people; that's not our job. I'm still struggling with

>> > that one, tho.

>

> I¹m just not sure that the admonition not to judge people really says much

> semantically. What does it really mean?

>

> Suppose you have someone, say, who lies to an entire country, and is

> responsible repeatedly for many deaths and suffering on a grand scale. What

> exactly is the real difference between judging his acts, and judging him as a

> person? I mean, you know that this person didn¹t do these things by accident,

> and you know he will do these things again. You know that this person will do

> these horrible things, and apparently doesn¹t feel much guilt about doing them

> and believes them to be good acts. Functionally, tell me the difference (if

> you believe that these actions are bad, and that this person is disposed to

> commit them) between judging and not judging?

>

> The difference, personally, that I see, is that the bible thumpers are quite

> dangerous because of their own self perception ­ they think because they

> interpret some of this stuff on a shallow level that they are pure of heart or

> something, and then they screw you with a smile on their face...

>

>> >

>> > I saw a video, " What I've Learned About U.S. Foreign Policy " (highly

>> > recommended!) in which they were talking about all the deaths caused

>> > by the US in Panama, I believe, and a woman was saying she prayed for

>> > our president that God would forgive him for what he'd done and that

>> > he'd never know the kind of grief that they were experiencing from

>> > something similar happening to his daughter. (I think her daughter

>> > was among those killed). It struck me how profound the difference

>> > was between her response to the tragedy and the typical American

>> > who'd probably want to see the president " burning in hell " or

>> > something similar.

>

> LOL ­ EXACTLY what I mean. Why would you pray for God to forgive someone that

> YOU hadn¹t judged? You see that that the issue isn¹t judging, but having the

> capacity to forgive and understand?

>> >

>> >

>>>>> >>>>

>>>>> >>>> Careful there ;o) I'm one of those crazy rightwingers and I

>>>> >>> guessing

>>>>> >>>> that they/we are everywhere. I have this theory that the

>> > political

>>>>> >>>> spectrum is more like a circle and at each end you may find

>> > those

>>>> >>> who

>>>>> >>>> do some of the the same outward actions, but for different

>>>> >>> reasons.

>>>>> >>>> Dont' try to take it too far, but in recent years I've found

>> > myself

>>>>> >>>> doing some really crunchy things and meeting and hanging with

>> > all

>>>> >>> sorts

>>>>> >>>> of people.

>>>>> >>>>

>>>>> >>>> One of those crazy rightwingers.

>>>>> >>>>

>>>>> >>>>

>>>>>> >>>>>

>>>>> >>>> I see how the right-wingers can take this to do the

>>>>>> >>>>> judgemental " we're superior to you sinners " thing

>>>>> >>>>

>>>> >>>

>>>> >>>

>>>> >>>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

[Guest guest]

I agree that we should love the sinner and hate the sin.

Now, some may say that this next statement is hypocritical, but as far

as foreign policy, it's dog eat dog, I mean eat or get eaten. This is

a historical fact, do I justify the acts of the US abroad, I don't know

if it can be helped, humans and governments being as they are. All I

can say is that I am eagerly awaiting the thousand years of peace when

Christ will reign as our King, then all the injustices will be repaid.

Dora

--- In , " haecklers " <haecklers@...>

wrote:

>

> The more I read the Bible the more it stands out to me to judge the

> acts not the people; that's not our job. I'm still struggling with

> that one, tho.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> And where does it talk about Easter bunnies, Easter eggs, Christmas

> trees, and Santa Claus?

The word Easter comes from the Teutonic goddess of spring, Ostara,

Oestre, or Eastre (origin -- the word East). It was a pagan fertility

festival celebrating spring.

Pagan in origin, it was later co-opted by the Christians.

All the symbols of Easter have to do with fertility. Eggs, bunnies, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostara

Ostara/Eastre/Easter comes from the root meaning egg. Estrus/estrogen

-- or female fertility.

This is cool:

" Clearly, EAST, EASTER link to YEAST and to LEAVEN, enLIVen, LIVen,

LEVant, eLEVate, LIVing, LIVER, LIVE, LIFE, LEAF, LEVity, LEVitate and

LEAF, LUNG, topics relegated to future explorations. Now it may be

more timely to remain focused on poetic roots about the mysteries of

life SPROUTING in SPRINGing. "

http://www.consultsos.com/pandora/in290302.htm

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

On 3/16/08, ALLYN FERRIS <aferris7272@...> wrote:

> And yes, I agree that Christianity has definitely been contaminated and that

> happened when was told to go to the Gentiles (pagans) (Acts 10 I

> think). So when this happened many of their beliefs were brought into

> Christianity, i.e. the Christmas Tree, The Bunny Rabbit (Pagan symbol of

> fertility), etc. If you look at Catholicism you will see many things that

> are pagan from the Popes, Bishops, etc. clothes and hats to many things in

> the church.

I have also read that the priests of Baal invented the belt buckle,

but ever since I discovered this, my pants have been falling down.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 3/17/08, inasnit@... <inasnit@...> wrote:

> > And where does it talk about Easter bunnies, Easter eggs, Christmas

> > trees, and Santa Claus?

>

> The word Easter comes from the Teutonic goddess of spring, Ostara,

> Oestre, or Eastre (origin -- the word East). It was a pagan fertility

> festival celebrating spring.

Right, but there is no Christian holiday " Easter. " In every language

except English and German, the word for this feast is some variant of

the Hebrew " Pesach, " most often derived from the Greek " Pascha " and

means " Passover. " The English Christians may have given us the pagan

name, but they certainly didn't invent the holiday.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> In fact, there is no direct evidence that Jesus as described in the

> New Testament ever was born on this earth as a human. His story may

> very well have been invented gradually over a period of 100 or 200

> years and then finally written in what we now know as the New

> Testament. Just like Easter bunnies and Santa Claus. Here is part

> one of a twelve piece puzzle that supports this view:

> http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/puzzle1.htm

> (click on " Next Piece " to build the puzzle)

I would love it if this guy would extend his criteria to other

historical figures.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Strange thread indeed...haven't exactly been following it closely, but I would

like to point out that the one thing humans need to understand is myth and its

usefullness to a healthy human mind. Religions all come and go and borrow

heavily from each other but the underlying myths they promote remain the same in

all cultures in all times. Our present day dismissal of myth along with

religion is what is hurting us, not our dismissal of Christianity or any other

religious institution

..

Re: was RELIGION ? Re: PREDICTED FAMINE Now speaking of wings

,

> In fact, there is no direct evidence that Jesus as described in the

> New Testament ever was born on this earth as a human. His story may

> very well have been invented gradually over a period of 100 or 200

> years and then finally written in what we now know as the New

> Testament. Just like Easter bunnies and Santa Claus. Here is part

> one of a twelve piece puzzle that supports this view:

> http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/puzzle1.htm

> (click on " Next Piece " to build the puzzle)

I would love it if this guy would extend his criteria to other

historical figures.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> I have " Hmmm " problems with all religions. They all have some good

> points, but they all have things I find hard to believe. I once had a

> guy come up to me in a park and tell me that I would go to hell if I

> didn't know Jesus. I asked him if Moses went to hell, since Moses

> never new Jesus. He said " Yes " . I asked what about all those people

> who never have heard about Jesus - " They go to hell too " . So, I guess

> all the poor souls born before Jesus all went to hell. I find this

> hard to believe

Generally if someone's first concern is pontificating about who goes

to hell and who does not, I would ignore them.

Part of the problem here, presumably, is the King Bible

translated three separate words, Sheol, Hades and Gahenna as " hell. "

" Sheol " is the Hebrew word for the place souls go at death, and Hades

is, although originally from Greek mythology, the word used to

translate Sheol into Greek in the Old and New Testaments, while

Gahenna is a place of eternal torment. Whether Sheol/Hades is an

actual place or state of being is besides the point. According to the

Bible, before Christ, all souls went to Sheol/Hades, but when he was

in the tomb he preached the gospel in Hades and granted resurrection

to those there. It is less clear on what occurs between death and the

last judgment, but there is an indication that some go to Hades and

others to a place of rest. Hell does not exist, and of course, no

sane Christian would say that Moses would be there. Moreover, the

premise that Moses did not know Christ is untrue, as Moses knew Christ

in part as the Logos of God who communicated to him and all the

prophets. In the Jewish and Orthodox Christian traditions, the fire

in the burning bush was uncreated -- in the latter, the Logos of God.

As to the eternal torment, here is a speculation of Dostoevsky:

" What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love. "

Chris