Re: Re: Help me refute this vegetarian argument if possible

[Guest guest]

I read it, that is one hunk of a body of research, lots to consider & to

critique.

Sincerely, Jim

<oz4caster@...> wrote:

--- " three3_six6_nine9 " <three3_six6_nine9@...> wrote:

> I'd love solid back-up, if possible, to refute the following (quoted

> from a vegetarian I know):

> 'most of the agricultural output goes to feed animals so if animals

> were not in the picture A LOT less agriculture would be needed to

> support humans and the planet could support a lot more people

> environmentally. Look up how much water/grain/land is necessary for a

> single hamburger patty and you'll be surprised.'

Read " The Naive Vegetarian " by Barry Groves, PhD nutritionist:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Salatin says he could easily sell a lot more chickens, but he

won't increase production because it would harm the environment,

which would in turn result in less healthy chickens. There's a balance.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 11:50 AM, W. Ferguson wrote:

> What about the example of the Salatin farm in Omnivore's Dilemna by

> Pollin. They use overlapping ecosystems to strengthen the land

> for further production. Raising animals on the land creates fertilizer

> byproducts that provide nutrients for other animals and crops. It is

> not really a zero sum game in this scenario. The problem is that in

> modern farming and meat production does not utilize the techniques

> described.

>

> I am no expert in this area, but this is basically what I understood.

> In a similar way, I understood that early south american Andean

> cultures

> produced oversized yields utilizing dense terraced farming with many

> complementary plant (and some animal) species.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The violence part is interesting. I know that when I used to go on a fat and

calorie restrictive diet (or indeed skip breakfast even now) I would get very

cranky and very quick to anger. I can see how long term saturated fat and

nutritional defecits could play a part in behavior.

I know a vegan lady who serves soy at every meal, including snacks i.e. soy

yogurt,?to her self and kids. She?is?younger than me (41)?and looks at least 10

years older and seems to be constantly on edge. Of course, we all have our

moments, no matter how much we stuff ourselves with butter and cream!

As an aside: They don't vax, which is fine in my book, but the kids have had

every disease including mumps, whooping cough, you name it. Not to mention they

are skinny as rails, very crooked teeth, etc. It sounds like I'm bagging on them

and I don't mean to sound like that. They're lovely people. Just mentioning it

in regards to nutritional deficiencies.

Other friends I know who don't vax but eat a more WAP diet have had few, if any,

issues with infectious disease.

Anyone have any info on that angle specifically?

Danae

Re: Help me refute this vegetarian argument if possible

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> Read " The Naive Vegetarian " by Barry Groves, PhD nutritionist:

> http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

>

--- Igo <jimi761@...> wrote:

> I read it, that is one hunk of a body of research, lots to consider &

> to critique.

Jim, there is one assertion that Groves' makes that I'm not sure is

realistic - that vegans are more violent. There are plenty of violent

omnivores

Most of his other arguments I like.

I can see how violent behavior might be related to nutrition and diet,

and IIRC this is discussed in NAPD (I need to go back and re-read).

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

The argument seemed to go something like this, Genesis part of the bible says

the vegetarian killed the carnivore, & that the majority of violent protest

rallies are composed of vegetarians. One can then surmise that mutual respect

is the only true answer.

Best regards, Jim

danaecooks@... wrote:

The violence part is interesting. I know that when I used to go on a

fat and calorie restrictive diet (or indeed skip breakfast even now) I would get

very cranky and very quick to anger. I can see how long term saturated fat and

nutritional defecits could play a part in behavior.

I know a vegan lady who serves soy at every meal, including snacks i.e. soy

yogurt,?to her self and kids. She?is?younger than me (41)?and looks at least 10

years older and seems to be constantly on edge. Of course, we all have our

moments, no matter how much we stuff ourselves with butter and cream!

As an aside: They don't vax, which is fine in my book, but the kids have had

every disease including mumps, whooping cough, you name it. Not to mention they

are skinny as rails, very crooked teeth, etc. It sounds like I'm bagging on them

and I don't mean to sound like that. They're lovely people. Just mentioning it

in regards to nutritional deficiencies.

Other friends I know who don't vax but eat a more WAP diet have had few, if any,

issues with infectious disease.

Anyone have any info on that angle specifically?

Danae

Re: Help me refute this vegetarian argument if possible

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> Read " The Naive Vegetarian " by Barry Groves, PhD nutritionist:

> http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

>

--- Igo <jimi761@...> wrote:

> I read it, that is one hunk of a body of research, lots to consider &

> to critique.

Jim, there is one assertion that Groves' makes that I'm not sure is

realistic - that vegans are more violent. There are plenty of violent

omnivores

Most of his other arguments I like.

I can see how violent behavior might be related to nutrition and diet,

and IIRC this is discussed in NAPD (I need to go back and re-read).

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Wow, no wonder I have been calming down lately.. Even though I haven't been

eating too much meat, I have been eating quite a bit of fat...

Re: Help me refute this vegetarian argument if possible

Neurotransmitters are made from protein and fat, and depending on the

way a vegan does it, I can see being deficient in both.

Check out the literature on neurotransmitters and loss of impulse

control and explosive anger - there's a lot with serotonin just for

starters, I know.

Conie

> > I read it, that is one hunk of a body of research, lots to

consider &

> > to critique.

>

> Jim, there is one assertion that Groves' makes that I'm not sure is

> realistic - that vegans are more violent. There are plenty of

violent

> omnivores

>

> Most of his other arguments I like.

>

> I can see how violent behavior might be related to nutrition and

diet,

> and IIRC this is discussed in NAPD (I need to go back and re-read).

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately for M2M(many to many) & TC Fry,a so called

guru who died @ age 70, the most severe causalities of natural hygiene were

brought up? There are literally thousands of very successful natural hygienists

dating back when the pilgrims first interacted with Indigenous Natives, natural

hygiene was the law of the land up until 1850 when the industrial revolution

took over & the US government covered up natural hygiene. It was not until the

early 1900's that a then young man by the name of Herbert M Shelton, ND took

notice that the public was being denied an education on the basic principles of

natural hygiene, in favor of over the counter quick-fix meds, denatured foods &

spices etc.

I have read WAP & have enjoyed it very much. From my readings I understand

that WAP was a natural hygienist, before starting out on his world travels to

visit other Indigenous cultures. The fact is that natural hygiene is not a so

called guru pop fad, it is as all American as apple pie, Dr Kellogs was a

natural hygienist that got exploited by big business into corn flakes, Dr

Sylvester Graham was a natural hygienist that got exploited into crackers in the

same way. Casualties can be pointed out in any way of life, that does not mean

it is the norm, all it does is give people the wrong generalized impression &

that can apply to anyone, such as hear-say. As mentioned WAPF is based on solid

natural hygienic principles, thanks to WAP, himself.

<oz4caster@...> wrote:

--- Desh " De Bell-Frantz " <deshabell@...> wrote:

> the beyondveg website is also helpful, I seem to have deleted that

> link.

Here's the Beyond Vegetarianism link for anyone who hasn't seen it:

http://www.beyondveg.com/

I've looked at bits and pieces of their web site in the past. They

have a lot of material I haven't looked at yet. Thanks for the

reminder Desh.

This is their discussion about vegetarianism:

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/frank-talk/index.shtml

I need to read it.

I notice they also have a section on " Rethinking Natural Hygiene " :

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/nat-hyg/index.shtml

Jim Igo, would you care to comment on it. I know little about it,

although I have read some of their discussions about cooked versus

raw, which I posted a few months ago.

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

On 3/19/08, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> I can see how violent behavior might be related to nutrition and diet,

> and IIRC this is discussed in NAPD (I need to go back and re-read).

B12 deficiency can lead to irrational anger I think, but I've known a

lot of vegans and I definitely, definitely, would not say they are

more violent than omnivores. Of course the ones who blow up

meat-packing plants are another story, but that obviously comes

primarily from ideology.

Chris

[Guest guest]

fyi natural hygiene includes meat ok.

- Re: Re: Help me refute this vegetarian argument if possible

,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately for M2M(many to many) & TC Fry,a so called

guru who died @ age 70, the most severe causalities of natural hygiene were

brought up? There are literally thousands of very successful natural hygienists

dating back when the pilgrims first interacted with Indigenous Natives, natural

hygiene was the law of the land up until 1850 when the industrial revolution

took over & the US government covered up natural hygiene. It was not until the

early 1900's that a then young man by the name of Herbert M Shelton, ND took

notice that the public was being denied an education on the basic principles of

natural hygiene, in favor of over the counter quick-fix meds, denatured foods &

spices etc.

I have read WAP & have enjoyed it very much. From my readings I understand

that WAP was a natural hygienist, before starting out on his world travels to

visit other Indigenous cultures. The fact is that natural hygiene is not a so

called guru pop fad, it is as all American as apple pie, Dr Kellogs was a

natural hygienist that got exploited by big business into corn flakes, Dr

Sylvester Graham was a natural hygienist that got exploited into crackers in the

same way. Casualties can be pointed out in any way of life, that does not mean

it is the norm, all it does is give people the wrong generalized impression &

that can apply to anyone, such as hear-say. As mentioned WAPF is based on solid

natural hygienic principles, thanks to WAP, himself.

<oz4caster@...> wrote:

--- Desh " De Bell-Frantz " <deshabell@...> wrote:

> the beyondveg website is also helpful, I seem to have deleted that

> link.

Here's the Beyond Vegetarianism link for anyone who hasn't seen it:

http://www.beyondveg.com/

I've looked at bits and pieces of their web site in the past. They

have a lot of material I haven't looked at yet. Thanks for the

reminder Desh.

This is their discussion about vegetarianism:

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/frank-talk/index.shtml

I need to read it.

I notice they also have a section on " Rethinking Natural Hygiene " :

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/nat-hyg/index.shtml

Jim Igo, would you care to comment on it. I know little about it,

although I have read some of their discussions about cooked versus

raw, which I posted a few months ago.

Well done is better than well said..., Jim Igo

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.