Re: RELIGION yoga and vegetarianism... (Moderator Message)

[Guest guest]

On 3/23/08, Irene <irene10@...> wrote:

> Well yeah. Yoga and meditation are not really religion in the sense that

> christianity and Judaism are. There is no diety to worship or even believe

> in or any dogma to subscribe to. They are simply practices and are

> compatible with any or no religion. Although I suppose someone could teach

> them in the context of a religous belief, I have never been to a yoga or

> meditation class where that was done. In fact many people practice them for

> health reasons alone and not spiritual ones.

Please use the RELIGION tag not only for the discussion of the

religious/spiritual aspects of yoga but also for all discussions of

what constitutes a religion.

Please get rid of the SPIRITUALITY tag. There are only three tags we

use on this list:

RELIGION (for posts of a religious nature)

POLITICS (for posts of a political, sometimes sociological, nature)

OT (rare -- for completely off-topic posts)

The system is designed to be, on the one hand, very simple, and on the

other hand, very obvious. In other words, we do not use " off-topic "

for all of these because sometimes religious and political topics are

on-topic and sometimes they are ambiguous, and we could often debate

forever whether a thread is truly on-topic or not. On the other hand,

it is very obvious when a post is of a political nature and generally

obvious when it is of a religious nature, so there is little room for

debate.

As this thread highlights, sometimes there is ambiguity between

" religion " and " spirituality " just as there is sometimes ambiguity

between " politics " and " sociology " and related fields. That's where

the simplicity comes in. We do not have an infinite number of tags

for all of these nuances. We only have three. Thus, please use the

three we have as appropriate.

I think, clearly, the fitness aspect of yoga can be completely

areligious. But that is clearly not what any of us were talking

about. Note that the ambiguity is such that the thread quickly led to

a comparison between the relative dogmatism of yoga and other

" spiritual disciplines, " what defines religion, etc, why some

religious systems look down on meat and others do not, etc. All

religious discussion. When in doubt, please use the tag. Simple and

obvious is the combo we are shooting for.

Thanks :-)

(Moderator)

[Guest guest]

On 3/23/08, Irene <irene10@...> wrote:

> So based on this, I would think that non theistic spiritual practices as

> they relate to diet would most appropriately use the OT tag.

I don't think so, but since is around he can give us a definitive answer.

(I think a main argument about this is that these posts are not

necessarily off-topic; the religion and politics tags are not meant to

indicate off-topicness, and a thread on how eating meat affects one's

meditation or prayer or divine illumination or whatever is clearly

on-topic inasmuch as it concerns the effect of food and nutrition on

some aspect of health/being.)

Chris

[Guest guest]

So based on this, I would think that non theistic spiritual practices as

they relate to diet would most appropriately use the OT tag.

Irene

At 04:15 AM 3/23/08, you wrote:

>On 3/23/08, Irene

><<mailto:irene10%40roadrunner.com>irene10@...> wrote:

> > Well yeah. Yoga and meditation are not really religion in the sense that

> > christianity and Judaism are. There is no diety to worship or even believe

> > in or any dogma to subscribe to. They are simply practices and are

> > compatible with any or no religion. Although I suppose someone could teach

> > them in the context of a religous belief, I have never been to a yoga or

> > meditation class where that was done. In fact many people practice them for

> > health reasons alone and not spiritual ones.

>

>Please use the RELIGION tag not only for the discussion of the

>religious/spiritual aspects of yoga but also for all discussions of

>what constitutes a religion.

>

>Please get rid of the SPIRITUALITY tag. There are only three tags we

>use on this list:

>

>RELIGION (for posts of a religious nature)

>POLITICS (for posts of a political, sometimes sociological, nature)

>OT (rare -- for completely off-topic posts)

>

>The system is designed to be, on the one hand, very simple, and on the

>other hand, very obvious. In other words, we do not use " off-topic "

>for all of these because sometimes religious and political topics are

>on-topic and sometimes they are ambiguous, and we could often debate

>forever whether a thread is truly on-topic or not. On the other hand,

>it is very obvious when a post is of a political nature and generally

>obvious when it is of a religious nature, so there is little room for

>debate.

>

>As this thread highlights, sometimes there is ambiguity between

> " religion " and " spirituality " just as there is sometimes ambiguity

>between " politics " and " sociology " and related fields. That's where

>the simplicity comes in. We do not have an infinite number of tags

>for all of these nuances. We only have three. Thus, please use the

>three we have as appropriate.

>

>I think, clearly, the fitness aspect of yoga can be completely

>areligious. But that is clearly not what any of us were talking

>about. Note that the ambiguity is such that the thread quickly led to

>a comparison between the relative dogmatism of yoga and other

> " spiritual disciplines, " what defines religion, etc, why some

>religious systems look down on meat and others do not, etc. All

>religious discussion. When in doubt, please use the tag. Simple and

>obvious is the combo we are shooting for.

>

>Thanks :-)

>

>(Moderator)

>

[Guest guest]

Chris-

Yes, if a post relates to diet, it's not really OT even if it's not

really about health, nutrition or physiology. I suppose it's a gray

area, but I entirely agree with your earlier post that the OT tag is

really only needed rarely.

-

> > So based on this, I would think that non theistic spiritual

> practices as

> > they relate to diet would most appropriately use the OT tag.

>

> I don't think so, but since is around he can give us a

> definitive answer.

>

> (I think a main argument about this is that these posts are not

> necessarily off-topic; the religion and politics tags are not meant to

> indicate off-topicness, and a thread on how eating meat affects one's

> meditation or prayer or divine illumination or whatever is clearly

> on-topic inasmuch as it concerns the effect of food and nutrition on

> some aspect of health/being.)

[Guest guest]

,

> Yes, if a post relates to diet, it's not really OT even if it's not

> really about health, nutrition or physiology. I suppose it's a gray

> area, but I entirely agree with your earlier post that the OT tag is

> really only needed rarely.

To make your definitive ruling more complete, would you say that a

discussion of the effect of meat on one's spiritual life should use

the RELIGION tag, or should go untagged?

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> To make your definitive ruling more complete, would you say that a

> discussion of the effect of meat on one's spiritual life should use

> the RELIGION tag, or should go untagged?

Oh, RELIGION, definitely, though if you have a counter-argument I'm of

course open to hearing it. (And I suppose there's a largish gray area

in the sense that " spiritual " has a large potential range of meanings.)

-

[Guest guest]

,

> > To make your definitive ruling more complete, would you say that a

> > discussion of the effect of meat on one's spiritual life should use

> > the RELIGION tag, or should go untagged?

>

> Oh, RELIGION, definitely, though if you have a counter-argument I'm of

> course open to hearing it. (And I suppose there's a largish gray area

> in the sense that " spiritual " has a large potential range of meanings.)

No counter-argument from me; I was just seeking your confirmation.

The main counter-argument presented was essentially that non-theistic

religions are not religions and thus in the case of yoga this does not

apply. Of course, theistic religions also have their arguments about

how they are not really religions (e.g. they are really personal

relationships with God, etc), and it seems kind of silly IMO for the

religiously neutral list to take sides on which religions are correct

in claiming they are not religions.

Chris

[Guest guest]

The only counter argument if it really matters is that yoga and meditation

are not religion. They are practices spiritual or not depending on the

practitioner. For many, yoga and meditation are as spiritual as kettle

bells or ballet. It is my experience that people who call meditation and

yoga religion are those that don't practice them.

Irene

At 04:00 PM 3/23/08, you wrote:

>Chris-

>

> > To make your definitive ruling more complete, would you say that a

> > discussion of the effect of meat on one's spiritual life should use

> > the RELIGION tag, or should go untagged?

>

>Oh, RELIGION, definitely, though if you have a counter-argument I'm of

>course open to hearing it. (And I suppose there's a largish gray area

>in the sense that " spiritual " has a large potential range of meanings.)

>

>-

>

>

[Guest guest]

Irene,

> The only counter argument if it really matters is that yoga and meditation

> are not religion. They are practices spiritual or not depending on the

> practitioner. For many, yoga and meditation are as spiritual as kettle

> bells or ballet. It is my experience that people who call meditation and

> yoga religion are those that don't practice them.

I agree that yoga as practiced by many is not spritual or religious,

and if someone is discussing using yoga stretching poses for physical

health, there is no sense in using the RELIGION tag. But the

spiritual aspects of yoga are clearly religious in nature.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Well, since this all started because the practice of meditation and yoga

was affecting someones diet, that seems to not warrant the RELIGION tag if

I understand the rules correctly.

However, I still consider it an unfortunate misrepresentation to call the

spiritual aspects of yoga religion. But since that is not what we were

talking about anyway then I guess it makes no difference.

Irene

At 07:05 PM 3/23/08, you wrote:

>Irene,

>

> > The only counter argument if it really matters is that yoga and meditation

> > are not religion. They are practices spiritual or not depending on the

> > practitioner. For many, yoga and meditation are as spiritual as kettle

> > bells or ballet. It is my experience that people who call meditation and

> > yoga religion are those that don't practice them.

>

>I agree that yoga as practiced by many is not spritual or religious,

>and if someone is discussing using yoga stretching poses for physical

>health, there is no sense in using the RELIGION tag. But the

>spiritual aspects of yoga are clearly religious in nature.

>

>Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Chris-

No, I agree with you entirely.

-

> The main counter-argument presented was essentially that non-theistic

> religions are not religions and thus in the case of yoga this does not

> apply. Of course, theistic religions also have their arguments about

> how they are not really religions (e.g. they are really personal

> relationships with God, etc), and it seems kind of silly IMO for the

> religiously neutral list to take sides on which religions are correct

> in claiming they are not religions.

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that the reason we tag the subject at all is

to benefit those who are interested in reading nutrition related

messages only. In light of this, I don't see why it is so important

whether we tag the subject " Religion " or " Spiritual " . hise who are

interested or not will get the idea.

Just my $.02.

Riki

>

> Well, since this all started because the practice of meditation and

yoga

> was affecting someones diet, that seems to not warrant the RELIGION

tag if

> I understand the rules correctly.

>

> However, I still consider it an unfortunate misrepresentation to

call the

> spiritual aspects of yoga religion. But since that is not what we

were

> talking about anyway then I guess it makes no difference.

>

> Irene

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Riki,

> It is my understanding that the reason we tag the subject at all is

> to benefit those who are interested in reading nutrition related

> messages only. In light of this, I don't see why it is so important

> whether we tag the subject " Religion " or " Spiritual " . hise who are

> interested or not will get the idea.

One major reason is that at least some folks may be using the tags to

filter certain types of emails. The tags need to be precise for this

to work, rather than random whims. The reason we have multiple tags,

such as RELIGION and POLITICS is because some people may want to read

one type of post and not the other, in addition to posts that fall

into neither category.

Since, as you say, it makes little difference other than this, there

is really no reason to mess with the current system.

Chris