Structured Water

March 25, 2008

> Does any one have any info regarding structured water and what is the

> best device to get structured water -

> lisa c

Hello ,

The bit about structured water that I can share off the top of my head.

The best device to make it might be your fridge. You put some water in a

container, perhaps disposable, wait until 2 thirds or so is frozen, or

until the ice is still clean and solid, drain

and discard the remaining water (it is said to contain the impurities and

residue. As in the see, when water is frozen, the ice is no longer salty,

because salt has been expelled from the water during freezing), then gently

melt the ice that you made. And you have " structured water " , especially when

you still have some ice floating in it. I read this in an old book published

in Russian in the Soviet Union. The text implied that this water possessed

curative / restorative properties, but did not directly suggest actually

preparing and using it.

I think the term, however, has a much broader meaning. This Japanese guy,

Masaru Emoto, did extensive research and wrote some books.

Also, the owners of this site <http://www.quantumbalancing.com/> seem to be

somewhat interested in the subject, and have some info on the site.

Sergey

March 25, 2008

Greetings All

You can use crystals to do the job also.

If you pray over the water or just speak good words, that will work also.

It is about your intention.

Everything I put in or on my body, I make sure I say how good it will

be for me.

Now, I am not going to put poison in to prove a point...but the

thought is the casue of it all!

NieeMA

>

> > Does any one have any info regarding structured water and what is the

> > best device to get structured water -

> > lisa c

>

> Hello ,

>

> The bit about structured water that I can share off the top of my head.

>

> The best device to make it might be your fridge. You put some water in a

> container, perhaps disposable, wait until 2 thirds or so is frozen, or

> until the ice is still clean and solid, drain

> and discard the remaining water (it is said to contain the

impurities and

> residue. As in the see, when water is frozen, the ice is no longer

salty,

> because salt has been expelled from the water during freezing), then

gently

> melt the ice that you made. And you have " structured water " ,

especially when

> you still have some ice floating in it. I read this in an old book

published

> in Russian in the Soviet Union. The text implied that this water

possessed

> curative / restorative properties, but did not directly suggest actually

> preparing and using it.

>

> I think the term, however, has a much broader meaning. This Japanese

guy,

> Masaru Emoto, did extensive research and wrote some books.

>

> Also, the owners of this site <http://www.quantumbalancing.com/>

seem to be

> somewhat interested in the subject, and have some info on the site.

>

> Sergey

>

March 25, 2008

Nieema's and Sergey's ideas for strcutured water sound intriguing. Nieema, do

you use the crystal as a pendulum as well? I was told that the whole process of

finding and choosing one is important. Porblem for me is that there are no

places locally that sell them. Any thoughts on that?

If you do a search on structured water or alkalized water you'll get a host of

gizmos. Some I looked into like the Jupiter alkalizers which also claim to

re-structure the molelcular size of water molecules. The olnly thing I did not

like about them is that Jupiter and many other brands use carbon filters with

silver in it and I'm not so sure about the quality of the silver. My dentist

swears by another product that is based on some sort of cnetrifigal force in the

container if memory serves. He has to distill the water first I think. But he

and his girlfriend have used it and swear to it's healing benefits. I haven't

done either as we have such low ph issues about (4.9 -5.2ph) with our well water

that none of these machines will rasie the level enough. We're looking for a

safe whole house method for raising the ph. In the meantime, we're doing the

bottled water thing which is not good either.

> From: NieeMA <nieema0@...>

> Subject: Re: structured water

>

> You can use crystals to do the job also.

>

> If you pray over the water or just speak good words, that

> will work also.

> It is about your intention.

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

March 25, 2008

I use Pimag water and an Optimizer that turns the water into a

hexagonal molecule. I got the Optimizer a year after I got the Pimag

system and it detoxified quite a bit deeper. My skin had a bad odor

for about 3 weeks before it stabilized. The system is cheap to run

once you buy the equipment. I spend about $50/year on replacement

parts and it costs $800- $1200 to start with depending on which system

you get. Minus 20% if you order through me. I have a distributorship

but don't work the business at all so I'd be happy to share my

discount. The water tastes really good, like Figi but better. If you

want files for it, just email me personally.

Sharon Hoehner

>

> Does any one have any info regarding structured water and what is the

> best device to get structured water -

> lisa c

>

March 26, 2008

Wanted some input. I have been thinking about " structuring " some of

our water by getting a one gallon glass jub, placing some type of

insert inside, piling some rocks on that, and running the water over

the rocks out of our filter and letting it drain into the bottom. I

have heard that tap water is really dense, and devoid of helpful

minerals for the most part, so I thought this would improve it in a

number of ways rather easily. I also hear it will make our home

brewing of K and other things go better.

So, here are my questions..

1. Is structured water good/needful? Is this is a good/bad idea, a

good use of time/bad use of time.

2. How do you know the rocks you have are good rocks to use?

3. Any other thoughts/input on the idea, implementation, things to

watch out for?

Thanks

March 28, 2008

Such an interesting question! I have thought of doing something

similar myself, with my RO water, which is devoid of minerals and has

the remaining toxic energy memory.

The concern I would have is preventing algae from accumulating on the

rocks as they do in nature. Who knows if that's good or bad; after

all, it happens in nature! But that would be my concern.

There is a commercial RO system that has a section where the water

travels through some rocks as you describe. But you have to buy the

entire system and it's well over $1000.

Sorry that's not much help. I just thought it was such an interesting

idea.

-Tamara in NJ

March 28, 2008

-

> 1. Is structured water good/needful? Is this is a good/bad idea, a

> good use of time/bad use of time.

Well, here's a question you might want to consider: what IS structured

water?

-

March 28, 2008

Structured water is, from what I have read, water that is not as dense

as tap water, aka, it has a different structure, more oxygen or free

oxygen, etc.... It usually also may contain minerals, etc... I know

there is some validity to this claim because the reason we push water

up into the air and then down before putting it into pipes is to get

the free oxygen and other stuff out so that the pipes last longer

(another good idea the Roman's gave us).

Again, there are so many health claims regarding stuff like this (and

so many other things) that I wondered if anyone had good

info/thoughts.

March 28, 2008

Where is the system?? I am looking for something for my home and though

that's a bit pricey right now I might be able to save up for it.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Tamara

Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:40 AM

Subject: Re: Structured Water

Such an interesting question! I have thought of doing something

similar myself, with my RO water, which is devoid of minerals and has

the remaining toxic energy memory.

The concern I would have is preventing algae from accumulating on the

rocks as they do in nature. Who knows if that's good or bad; after

all, it happens in nature! But that would be my concern.

There is a commercial RO system that has a section where the water

travels through some rocks as you describe. But you have to buy the

entire system and it's well over $1000.

Sorry that's not much help. I just thought it was such an interesting

idea.

-Tamara in NJ

March 29, 2008

>

> Where is the system?? I am looking for something for my home and though

> that's a bit pricey right now I might be able to save up for it.

>

check it out here:

http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/prod.cfm/ct/7/pid/1150

March 30, 2008

> >

> > Where is the system?? I am looking for something for my home and

though

> > that's a bit pricey right now I might be able to save up for it.

> >

> check it out here:

> http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/prod.cfm/ct/7/pid/1150

>

I have the same filter without the restructuring parts (so mine is

only stage 1-8) that I paid only $100 for plus shipping. I

restructure my water by adding some concentrace trace minerals back,

letting it sit in the sun in a glass bottle for a little, and

sometimes by carbonating it (which consists of injecting co2 at high

pressure). Not everyone is big on carbonation but all the most valued

mineral waters are naturally carbonated and if you watch the way the

bubbles spiral around in neat little patterns thats as structured as I

can see.

I really love making my own carbonated mineral water using pure RO

water and concentrace. Its really phosphoric acid and sugars in sodas

that are a problem.

Here is some information on carbonation I copied from this blog -

http://www.xanga.com/Mrs/514818850/diet-challenge--the-benefits-of-drin\

king-mineral-water.html

__________________________________________________

" This is pieced together from a few different websites.

Just what Carbonation does is hardly explained anywhere, but this is

in fact what it does, and why it is important to our Health.

This www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/5/1058 is a recent health

study using a premium sparkling mineral water.

You will notice that we've once again circled back to the issue of pH

and Oxygen. Hydrogen is not the answer, and oxygen alone is not enough

to prevent Cancer these days, although it likely helps. Hungary has

many carbonated hot springs and healing waters in their country. It is

not far-fetched at all that they can heal. Lourdes certainly has more

going for it than just the Virgin ..... Miracles are things we

simply don't understand yet, provided by the Grace of God.... and

Mother Nature.

Subject: Why Carbonate...? December 2005

Carbonic Conversion is the process of pH change and alteration down at

the blood and tissue level. In order to do this in a simple fashion,

let's look at the process of food metabolism and how your body handles

metabolic by-products from food intake. One of the by-products of food

metabolism is CO2, carbon dioxide. As you know, lung respiration is

one way in which your body eliminates carbon dioxide - it happens

every time you exhale. However, in order to eliminate all of the

carbon dioxide that is generated from normal metabolism, the lungs

would need a respiration rate far above normal breathing. Holding this

constantly accelerated rate would indeed be very difficult. Therefore,

other mechanisms comes into play for handling the excess. 1) The CO2

combines with ammonia (produced from the oxidation of glutamine) and

converts to urea in the liver and is excreted by the kidneys. 2)The

carbon dioxide combines with water through a process utilizing the

enzyme carbonic anhydrase and the co-enzyme mineral ZINC. Through this

process, carbonic acid is formed, which breaks down into hydrogen and

bicarbonate atoms/molecules.

What does pH stand for?... Potential Hydrogen. When we talk about

hydrogen, we are talking about potential ACIDS. When we talk of

bicarbs, we are talking bases (alkaline substances). ACIDS are a

normal by-product of metabolism. The body has the mechanisms in place

to eliminate these acids. BUT, through poor dietary habits, shallow

breathing, lack of excercise, toxicity exposures, etc., which can lead

to liver stress and kidney malfunction, the ACIDS in the body do not

always get eliminated as they should. In this case, what's a body to

do? Well if it can't eliminate them, then it has to store them. And

store them it does. We are starting to scratch the surface for the

aging mechanism in our body.

When the body has an excess of acid it can't get rid of, the acid gets

stored for later removal. Where? In the interstitial spaces, also

called the extracellular matrix - the spaces around the cells; the

mesenchyme. When the body stores a hydrogen molecule/atom/proton (the

acid) in the extracellular matrix, it believes that one day the acid

is going to be removed. Therefore, in order to be in balance, it knows

that for every molecule of acid that gets stored in the tissues, an

equal molecule of bicarb or base needs to be put into the blood

because one day it will be needed to escort the acid out of the body.

This is the body's amazing compensatory mechanism at work.

As more acid accumulates in our body, it gets stored and pushed

further, and ultimately it gets pushed into the cell. When it gets

pushed into the cell, the first thing it does is displace POTASSIUM

and then MAGNESIUM and then SODIUM. Those are critical minerals in our

body. The potassium and magnesium will leave the body, but as a

preservation mechanism the sodium will be retained. Remember, the body

knows it must place an alkaline molecule in the blood to escort out

this increasing acid that is being stored in the tissues and cells.

What it will often do (when mineral reserves are low, which is often

the case when eating a modern American diet) is draw CALCIUM (the most

alkaline mineral known) from the bones and put it into the blood. This

leads to something called free calcium excess. This is something you

don't want and it is what's behind osteoporosis, arthritic pain, etc.

It is brought about by the body compensating for an ever increasing

tissue acidosis somewhere in the body. Those with cystic fibrosis,

asthma, or any conditron with " heavy mucous " would benefit greatly,

along with an oxygen machine or special breathing exercises. A Russion

doctor named Buyteyko discovered that Asthma sufferers hyper-ventilate

which causes severe loss of carbon dioxide, and the bronchial tubes

close up to protect the excessive loss www.kickasthma.com. Another

good source is the Sorvino Foundation. This is Sorvino the actor,

who says Asthma can easily be cured. " In 1992, I founded the Sorvino

Asthma Foundation as I suffered also from asthma for 25 years...and

recovered fully with respiration exercises. There is a videotape and a

book How to Become a Former Asthmatic (1985).. Call the Sorvino

Foundation (212) 941-8686 or see our website

www.sorvinoasthmafound.org for further information.''

What the body needs to normalize and alkalize is more Oxygen and

Carbon, that can easily be supplied by Sparkling Mineral Waters

www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Water/Germany/Apollinaris.asp made at home.

Filtered water with liquid fulvic

www.vitalearth.org/fulvic_minerals.htm minerals and then aerated by

adding CO2 bubbles with a Seltzer Maker www.sodaclub.com will hold its

precious oxygen load, and provide a superior healing water. If you use

a Nikken water maker, the fulvic factors are added for you. (I really

love my PiMag.) Choose from Dr. Wallach's Majestic Earth Minerals,

www.MarineMinerals.com, or Concentrace® Cherry Trace Mineral Drops - 8

oz - Liquid, Inland Sea Water - I gal - Liquid, ConcenTrace Trace

Mineral Drops - 8 oz - Liquid if you just want a premium water using

bottled water. RO and Distilled water systems

www.herbalconsults.com/water.html require these products for health,

as these waters are highly acidic, and need balancing. Being " empty "

they will eventually draw minerals out of the bones and serum if drunk

on a regular basis. Fortified oxygenated waters will not only

mineralize and de-calcify the body properly, but help synthesize the

ormic (precious metal) elements that keep Mercury from harming the

human form. These same principles are shown to be effective in

www.ourcivilization.com/smartboard/shop/flknreh/chap11.htm soil

science and metallurgy. Too often there are reports of toxins and

solvents in bottled waters and carbonated beverages. CO2 tanks are not

to blame for the quality of what is being carbonated. Distillata,

Aquafina and SmartWater are some of the very best brands at a

reasonable price that you can trust,...and they have flavors, ... but

It costs less, and you know exactly what you have when you do it yourself.

Carbonic acid dissolves minerals more readily than water alone and

forms the more soluble bicarbonates. The family of mineral compounds

which neutralize acids are carbonic minerals that contain any one of

the four basic or alkaline elements: Na (Sodium), Ca (Calcium), K

(Potassium) and Mg (Magnesium). When these minerals meet with strong

acids such as sulfuric, phosphoric, acetic or lactic acid, the

alkaline minerals making up the carbonic minerals combine with the

acids, forming salts no longer harmful to the kidneys, intestinal

walls or other elimination channels. ...

Low physical energy / vigor?

Intestinal Gas, when eating vegetables or fruit?

Hyperness you're always on the go, internal tension?

It is this lowered concentration of alkaline elements that is referred

to as an " acidic condition " of the body fluid. Extra-cellular fluids

contain Na (sodium) and Ca (calcium). If the intracellular fluids are

lowered significantly in K (potassium) and Mg (magnesium), nerves will

not transmit messages and a coma may result.

Research areas

Cell Biology >> Metabolism >> Vitamins / Minerals

Cardiovascular >> Hypoxia >> Associated Proteins

Relevance

Carbonic anhydrase (CA) is an enzyme that assists rapid

interconversion of carbon dioxide and water into carbonic acid,

protons, and bicarbonate ions. It is abundant in all mammalian

tissues. Because of its functionality, it has become an important

diagnostic marker for various cancers, most notably renal cell

carcinoma (RCC). There are many genes that are inducible by hypoxia,

via HIF-1 alpha. CA IX is one of the most inducible genes because of

its stability and location within the membrane. Carbonic anhydrases

have a widespread role in regulating pH in normal tissues, by

regulating hydrogen ion (H+) flux. The pH is important in cell death

under hypoxia, thus a blockade of CA IX results in increased cell

death under hypoxia. Therefore, CA IX has become a reliable

histochemical marker of hypoxia.

Water is a good solvent and picks up impurities easily. Pure water is

often called the Universal Solvent. When water is combined with carbon

dioxide to form very weak carbonic acid, an even better solvent

results, that is not highly acidic. As water moves through soil and

rock it dissolves very small amounts of pH ionic minerals and holds

them in solution. Calcium and magnesium dissolved in water are the two

most common minerals that make water " hard. " It is certainly more

healthful than softened water, which often promotes infection. Water

described as " hard " is high in dissolved minerals, specifically

calcium and magnesium. Hard water is not a health risk, but a nuisance

because of mineral buildup on fixtures and poor soap and/or detergent

performance. Filtering and treating your own water from the tap has

huge benfits. You can then make seltzer water and have a truly

healthful drink you can flavor to your heart's content. So why

Carbonate...? ...for the Oxygen and the bioavailable Minerals that

keep you healthy, and your overall pH balance, and to keep nasty

water-borne Parasites from making a home in your body. This is not

just a Third World problem. Think about New Orleans... Some critters

are not killed by chlorine or even by boiling, possibly because they

are in a soup of man-made chemicals before the municipal system gets

them. See Protozoa as Human Parasites

www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/224/Parasitology.html and this

www.scuba-doc.com/marif.htm if you scuba dive. Iodine will kill all

parasitic species, even the cysts that are missed by most filters.

These in-line refrigerator units cover all the bases for just a few

dollars more

www.freshwatersystems.com/products/index/p1056/1056/None/None

www.filtersfast.com/Omni-Filter-R400-water-filter-cartridge.asp. Some

water systems use iodine as a pre-treatment before the carbon filter.

There are even amazing filters for campers and travelers

www.survivalschool.com/products/Water_Filters/safewater_filter.htm.

You can get good filtration now at a reasonable price if you shop

carefully. It's worth it for huge health returns and relatively small

effort. And it even tastes good.

Posted 8/5/2006 9:38 AM by ladyliberty8 - reply "

_____________________________________________________

April 1, 2008

-

> I

> restructure my water by adding some concentrace trace minerals back,

> letting it sit in the sun in a glass bottle for a little, and

> sometimes by carbonating it (which consists of injecting co2 at high

> pressure). Not everyone is big on carbonation but all the most valued

> mineral waters are naturally carbonated and if you watch the way the

> bubbles spiral around in neat little patterns thats as structured as I

> can see.

How is this " structuring " the water? I mean, seriously, what the heck

is " structure " in water? Seems to me I might just as well talk about

" mana " , or " mojo " , or " Idol Energy " , units of which would of

course be measured in " slices " . I don't mean to knock remineralizing

filtered water, as really pure water doesn't exist in nature and thus

might be physiologically dubious, but what that has to do with

" structure " escapes me.

-

April 1, 2008

> How is this " structuring " the water? I mean, seriously, what the heck

> is " structure " in water? Seems to me I might just as well talk about

> " mana " , or " mojo " , or " Idol Energy " , units of which would of

> course be measured in " slices " . I don't mean to knock remineralizing

> filtered water, as really pure water doesn't exist in nature and thus

> might be physiologically dubious, but what that has to do with

> " structure " escapes me.

>

> -

Well I believe structure in water is partly due to the electric charge

of attraction and repulsion created by all of the dissolved ions.

That creates a sort of structure, a fluid, changing structure but

theres still some sort of order, a type of balance. But structure

doesn't equal good, it just means it isn't absolutely pure and blank.

You can most certainly have badly structured water by doing something

like adding chlorine.

There may also be some things that we can't measure as of yet, or we

just aren't looking at or deeming important when it comes to water.

For instance, most people believe muscles are muscles and just for

moving but I believe muscles can also store memories, and have seen a

show about people with heart transplants who experienced memories that

didn't belong to them but to the organ donor.

Also, I have heard stories from people who I trust about chi kung

practices which involved charging water with chi and using that as the

only medicine and it being effective.

Its just how much you really want to believe I guess...

-

April 1, 2008

,

> How is this " structuring " the water? I mean, seriously, what the heck

> is " structure " in water? Seems to me I might just as well talk about

> " mana " , or " mojo " , or " Idol Energy " , units of which would of

> course be measured in " slices " . I don't mean to knock remineralizing

> filtered water, as really pure water doesn't exist in nature and thus

> might be physiologically dubious, but what that has to do with

> " structure " escapes me.

All water has structure to it, in that the molecules are not

free-floating singly but are tightly arranged in " water clusters, "

usually organized around ions in some way, including H+ and OH- ions

formed from the autodissociation of the water.

My understanding, based on stuff I've read a long time ago from these

folks, is that they claim to make the water clusters smaller.

Based on the typical osmotic view of the cell, I wouldn't expect this

to have any effect. However, I read a rather intriguing book called

_Life at the Cell and Below-Cell Level_ by Gilbert Ling, who has a

totally different idea of how the cell works, which formed the basis

for the MRI. ly I don't have the knowledge to be able to figure

out whether his ideas make any sense as they totally contradict a huge

chunk of conventional cell biology. But his view of how the cell

works -- in which the water is not liquid in the cell but more like

jello -- really changes the implications for what would determine

water's entry into the cell.

Anyway, I still don't understand how " structured " water could maintain

the same structure once it hits the acidity of the stomach.

But I know very little about this stuff. Either way, there is some

sense to the idea of water structure, whether the stuff is really more

hydrating or not. On personal experience, it seems to me that Penta

water is more hydrating than plain water, but it could very well be

placebo effect.

Chris

April 2, 2008

-

> Well I believe structure in water is partly due to the electric charge

> of attraction and repulsion created by all of the dissolved ions.

> That creates a sort of structure, a fluid, changing structure but

> theres still some sort of order, a type of balance. But structure

> doesn't equal good, it just means it isn't absolutely pure and blank.

> You can most certainly have badly structured water by doing something

> like adding chlorine.

All matter has structure in the most basic sense of the word, but if

we're using " structure " in that sense, then like everything else,

water is never " unstructured " . Nothing made of matter can be

unstructured. Inasmuch as ice is ordered and water is chaotic, I

suppose one could say that by freezing water, one is raising its level

of order and increasing the degree (or order <g>) of its structure,

but I don't think it's meaningful to talk of the effect on the

_structure_ of water of adding chlorine to it. Of course it alters

the physical arrangement of molecules and electrical charges, but the

real problem with chlorinated water is the chlorine (and whatever

incidental compounds are added with it or formed by its addition).

> There may also be some things that we can't measure as of yet, or we

> just aren't looking at or deeming important when it comes to water.

> For instance, most people believe muscles are muscles and just for

> moving but I believe muscles can also store memories, and have seen a

> show about people with heart transplants who experienced memories that

> didn't belong to them but to the organ donor.

I'm extremely skeptical of the idea that memories can be stored in

muscles, but that's a testable proposition, and in fact we don't need

to understand _how_ it happens (if in fact it does happen) to verify

that it _does_ happen. And generally speaking, of course there could

be things that we can't yet measure or understand... but these things

would have effects. For example, people knew to make a tea out of

willow bark long before aspirin was discovered; the utility of willow

bark tea was a reliable, repeatable phenomenon. But nobody seems to

have done any kind of testing of the effects that are attributed to

the supposed " structure " of water. A basic feeding study would be

simple enough to conduct. For that matter, a simple plant-watering

study would be even simpler and cheaper.

-

April 2, 2008

Chris-

> All water has structure to it, in that the molecules are not

> free-floating singly but are tightly arranged in " water clusters, "

> usually organized around ions in some way, including H+ and OH- ions

> formed from the autodissociation of the water.

Of course, but all matter is structured in this sense, in that its

constituent atoms and molecules are arranged in some way or other.

(Also, my understanding is that these water clusters are fluid and

changing, not fixed.)

> My understanding, based on stuff I've read a long time ago from these

> folks, is that they claim to make the water clusters smaller.

Yes, I've read that some (though certainly not all) of the water

structuring people make this claim, but on what do they base it? (And

unless these smaller clusters are somehow more rigid or durable, it

seems to me that making the clusters smaller would actually make the

water less structured anyway.)

> Based on the typical osmotic view of the cell, I wouldn't expect this

> to have any effect. However, I read a rather intriguing book called

> _Life at the Cell and Below-Cell Level_ by Gilbert Ling, who has a

> totally different idea of how the cell works, which formed the basis

> for the MRI.

Though I don't know the details and so could be missing something (or

a lot of somethings) I don't see how the work of a cellular biologist

could form the basis of the invention of the MRI, which is the result

of a combination of physics and math.

> ly I don't have the knowledge to be able to figure

> out whether his ideas make any sense as they totally contradict a huge

> chunk of conventional cell biology. But his view of how the cell

> works -- in which the water is not liquid in the cell but more like

> jello -- really changes the implications for what would determine

> water's entry into the cell.

I certainly can't comment on his hypothesis, but as cells are

extremely small and any water within them highly impure, it would be

silly to expect cellular water to function in the same way that a

glass of water does.

> Anyway, I still don't understand how " structured " water could maintain

> the same structure once it hits the acidity of the stomach.

Or once ANY substance is added to it, as the clustering behavior of

water molecules is dramatically affected by the chemistry of the

materials dissolved in it.

> But I know very little about this stuff. Either way, there is some

> sense to the idea of water structure, whether the stuff is really more

> hydrating or not.

I think there are two different ideas here, though. One is the fact

that as matter, water has structure, and this structure is affected by

various issues, primarily the nature and number of the ions to be

found within it. The other is the notion that by performing some sort

of quasi-mystical rituals, people can alter this structure in such a

way as to be beneficial to health. As far as I can tell, there is

absolutely zero basis whatsoever for the latter family of claims.

> On personal experience, it seems to me that Penta

> water is more hydrating than plain water, but it could very well be

> placebo effect.

It would be interesting to test this, and if you get someone to help

out, it shouldn't be too hard to conduct a very rough experiment. But

look at what their website says: " The antioxidant and hydration

properties of Penta are due to its state of the art ultra-purification

and patented process that spins the water under high pressure and

speed for 11 hours. This unique process energizes the water and it is

believed that this added energy results in the antioxidant activity to

neutralize Free Radicals. Antioxidants and good hydration are

essential parts of an everyday healthy lifestyle. Great tasting Penta

provides both -- without calories, without preservatives, and without

additives of any kind. " Does that sound even remotely plausible?

-

April 2, 2008

Chris-

I should add that even though their description sounds like utter

gibberish, they could theoretically be accomplishing something that

they either don't understand or don't want to explain to the

competition.

-

> > On personal experience, it seems to me that Penta

> > water is more hydrating than plain water, but it could very well be

> > placebo effect.

>

> It would be interesting to test this, and if you get someone to help

> out, it shouldn't be too hard to conduct a very rough experiment. But

> look at what their website says: " The antioxidant and hydration

> properties of Penta are due to its state of the art ultra-purification

> and patented process that spins the water under high pressure and

> speed for 11 hours. This unique process energizes the water and it is

> believed that this added energy results in the antioxidant activity to

> neutralize Free Radicals. Antioxidants and good hydration are

> essential parts of an everyday healthy lifestyle. Great tasting Penta

> provides both -- without calories, without preservatives, and without

> additives of any kind. " Does that sound even remotely plausible?

April 2, 2008

,

> Of course, but all matter is structured in this sense, in that its

> constituent atoms and molecules are arranged in some way or other.

> (Also, my understanding is that these water clusters are fluid and

> changing, not fixed.)

Well the term " structured " is obviously a silly marketing device. I

think their point, at least the point in the explanations I read a

while back if I remember right, is that the structure is different.

> > My understanding, based on stuff I've read a long time ago from these

> > folks, is that they claim to make the water clusters smaller.

> Yes, I've read that some (though certainly not all) of the water

> structuring people make this claim, but on what do they base it? (And

> unless these smaller clusters are somehow more rigid or durable, it

> seems to me that making the clusters smaller would actually make the

> water less structured anyway.)

I don't think the point is the magnitude of structuring, but rather

the type of structure. In other words " structured " is short-hand for

" having a more desirable structure. "

> Though I don't know the details and so could be missing something (or

> a lot of somethings) I don't see how the work of a cellular biologist

> could form the basis of the invention of the MRI, which is the result

> of a combination of physics and math.

Because cell biology is determined by physics and math? Flipping

through the back of the book, appendix 1 contains lots of math: The

Trophin equation, the Bradley adsorption isotherm, Ling's equation for

solute distribution in cell water, the Yang-Ling adsorption isotherm,

Ling's general equation for solute distribution in living cells and

simplified versions, Ling's equation for cell permeability, Ling's

equation for cell volume, Ling's equation for the resting potential,

Ling's equation for the action potential.

Whoa -- he even quotes the inventor of the MRI quoting nobel-prize

winning discoverer of several vitamins, Albert Szent Giorgi, using the

term " water structure " !

Briefly, he says that the polarized multilayer (PM) theory of cell

water was the basis for the recognition by Freeman Cope that the NMR

spectrometer should be able to demonstrate the motional restruction of

water implied by the theory, with which one can assess the rotational

correlation time of the hydrogen atoms of the water molecules or their

relaxation times. PM predicts they should have shorter relaxation

times than pure liquid water, which Cope confirmed.Carlton Hazelwood

made a simultaneous confirmation. Then Damadian, inventor of

the MRI, showed that cancer cells have longer relxation times than

normal cells. He wrote:

" Longer T1 and T2 [relxation times] of tthe water protons in cancer

cells are also in harmony with Albert Szent-Gyorgyi's prophetic

announcement in 1957 in a footnote that cancer has 'less water

structure.' HIs concept of 'less water structure' in cancer cells is

compatible with the PM theory. HOwever, subsequent work including

work yet to be published has also shown that 'less water structure' is

only one of the causes of the longer T1 and T2 of cancer tissues

observed. "

Damadian invented the MRI and Lauterbur improved it. On July 15,

1988, they each received the National Technological Award for it from

Reagan and Damadian was inducted the next year into the National

Investors' Hall of Fame for it.

Ling quotes a letter that Damadian wrote to him:

" On the morning of July 3, at 4:45 AM . . . we achieved with great

jubilation the world's first MRI image of the live human body. The

acievement originated in the modern concepts of salt water biophysics,

on which you are the grand pioneer with your classic treatise, the

association-induction hypothesis. "

> I certainly can't comment on his hypothesis, but as cells are

> extremely small and any water within them highly impure, it would be

> silly to expect cellular water to function in the same way that a

> glass of water does.

The conventional view is that the water in cell's is liquid and that

the force of osmosis together with membrane pumps determines the

passage of solutes. Ling's hypothesis, the association-induction

hypothesis, of which the polarized multilayer theory of water is

based, is that the water is essentially a colloid rather than liquid,

and that osmotic force does not govern the cell, but rather other

forces that I can't explain well because it's been too long since I

read the book (years).

> > Anyway, I still don't understand how " structured " water could maintain

> > the same structure once it hits the acidity of the stomach.

> Or once ANY substance is added to it, as the clustering behavior of

> water molecules is dramatically affected by the chemistry of the

> materials dissolved in it.

Right. But if you drink the water straight, the stomach would be the

first place I'd expect a dramatic change.

> > But I know very little about this stuff. Either way, there is some

> > sense to the idea of water structure, whether the stuff is really more

> > hydrating or not.

> I think there are two different ideas here, though. One is the fact

> that as matter, water has structure, and this structure is affected by

> various issues, primarily the nature and number of the ions to be

> found within it. The other is the notion that by performing some sort

> of quasi-mystical rituals, people can alter this structure in such a

> way as to be beneficial to health. As far as I can tell, there is

> absolutely zero basis whatsoever for the latter family of claims.

I haven't seen any good evidence either, not that I have looked that hard.