Re: Depression/OCD without the drugs

August 31, 2008

>Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression, OCD, and

>ADD without medication.

amy, here's a blog you could read...i think his last 3 or 4 posts were about

treating depression naturally. http://thehealthyskeptic.org/

also, i have been successful treating depression and anxiety and some OCD

with diet and supplementation. i was never on a prescription, so i can't

speak to that, but basically i have cut out ALL sugars, including fruit (i

occasionally eat some berries), ALL grains, especially gluten, and upped my

fat intake to around 80% of my diet. i eat a low carb diet and i have taken

many supplements like B complex, liver, magnesium, cod liver oil (i was

taking 2 T. for a long time to begin, now i take a teaspoon of the

fermented), butter oil, skate liver oil, extra vitamin D.

if you can do raw dairy then i would suggest eating as much heavy cream as

possible. and also egg yolks. try to have red meat every day. lots of

butter. let me know if you want more suggestions.

amanda

August 31, 2008

Hi Amy,

I completely eliminated gluten-producing grains from my diet (wheat, spelt,

etc.) and it

cleared up some digestive issues and my anxiety and depression. Like,

want-to-give-up-

and-die depression, and anxiety that was eating me up. It took me a long time

to come

to the point of realizing it was wheat and related grains. I toyed with mostly

cutting out

wheat, and with only eating properly-prepared sourdough, but that wasn't enough.

It took weeks of stringent gluten-free eating to realize how much better I felt,

but it was

worth it. I don't even want any, no cravings anymore. I quit eating it in

September 2007.

I tried some spelt this last week, and the same problems came back.

Fortunately, within a

few days, they were gone. Even a couple of sips of beer will make me feel nutty

by the

next day. Sometimes the effects take a couple of days to show up.

The weirdest thing was, these problems would come and go. At first, I couldn't

believe

they were tied to wheat, because they weren't neatly correlated with eating it.

I also didn't

believe I could be gluten-intolerant because I wasn't underweight or wasn't

having

diarrhea every time - boy was I wrong.

Gray, Chandler, AZ

August 31, 2008

Amy,

I'd recommend that you try supplementing with niacinamide, a

B-vitamin. Orthomolecular physicians have been using it to treat

anxiety and depression for quite some time. Here is a good summary

with case studies and dosage information:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_259-260/ai_n12417487/print

This article mentions vitamin C as important:

http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/articles/ocdepression.shtml

More on orthomolecular psychiatry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomolecular_psychiatry

Good luck,

Tom

September 1, 2008

Amy,

Congratulations on your new baby! First of all don't go off any

medication (ESPECIALLY SSRI's like Prozac which must be closely

monitored; also ssri's cannot be stopped suddenly), or add any

supplements (especially those that work in the same way as an ssri)

without talking to your doctor, with a visit or phone call. That

said, inositol (which used to be called a b vitamin but now has been

reclassified) is used in psychiatry sometimes in combination with with

ssri's to treat OCD. I've seen it mentioned in pubmed too as being

used to treat the depressive phase of bipolar disorder. Anyways I

think I am ocd (score high on screening tests) and have had good

results in taking it, but then I wasn't on an ssri. So all I am saying

is talk with your doctor about it and anything you plan to do with

Prozac. God bless.

Kathy

In , Amy Sikes-Dorman

<amysikesdorman@...> wrote:

>

> Hi All:

>

> Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right

now, and as I'm breastfeeding my daughter and trying to lead a healthy

life, both for her sake and mine, I'm not comfortable taking even the

10mg that I'm taking. I want some way to support my mental health

without using these dangerous drugs, but each time I come off them, I

am a basket case. I'm allergic to St. 's Wort, unfortunately.

>

> I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an effort

to push myself to really get back into it. I know that exercise

helps. Are there any specific other suggestions or techniques anyone

could offer? All help is appreciated!

>

> Amy

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD

with Windows®.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

>

September 1, 2008

I used to have problems with depression and I found that probiotics

helped a lot - real ones, not the pills. Sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir,

umeboshi plums, Bubbie's sour pickles. It's possible that your

digestive system is thrown off (maybe abx during delivery?) and your

body is unable to make the serotonin, GABA, etc. that you need. Raw

milk and cod liver oil are helpful in that regard as well (and good

for baby)!

Also incredibly helpful were omega-3 supplements with CoQ 10

(together they made me much better than separate).

You might also want to consider iodine supplements - the iodine has a

role in regulating hormones, in case this is some post-partum

depression from your hormones not settling back as they should.

While a lot of this could be just sleep deprivation, a lot of people

with lyme have those same problems. It seems to be part of adrenal

fatigue/dysbiosis/poor digestion/food sensitivities that comes from

lyme, but can be from other causes as well, like mercury overload.

Lyme is an epidemic, you may want to look at www.canlyme.com for the

symptoms and see if you think you want to get tested. I got it

during pregnancy and it took me 5 years to figure it out because I

kept blaming my symptoms on sleep deprivation, hormone changes,

breastfeeding, etc.

Hope this helps!

>

> Hi All:

>

> Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right

now, and as I'm breastfeeding my daughter and trying to lead a

healthy life, both for her sake and mine, I'm not comfortable taking

even the 10mg that I'm taking. I want some way to support my mental

health without using these dangerous drugs, but each time I come off

them, I am a basket case. I'm allergic to St. 's Wort,

unfortunately.

>

> I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an

effort to push myself to really get back into it. I know that

exercise helps. Are there any specific other suggestions or

techniques anyone could offer? All help is appreciated!

>

> Amy

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD

with Windows®.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

>

September 1, 2008

I would recommend looking into amino acids and cod liver oil. My sister is

taking some basic amino acids, prozac and cod liver oil-she is doing well and

hopes to wean off of Prozac soon. Look into the amino acids GABA, tyrosine,

glutamine, methionine and 5-HTP, only the 5-HTP should not be taken with

prozac. I can give you more information if you're interested, or you can find

some good info. online. There is a great book called Healing Depression and

Bipolar disorder without drugs by Gracelyn Guyol which I highly recommend. We

found it at barnes and nobles. My sister has Bipolar disorder with a lot of

depression and she is now doing much better.

September 1, 2008

I suffered from depression a lot in my teenage years. I even dropped

out of college because of it, it was really bad. I tried eating

better for a few years and that didn't help me, but then I became

convinced my depression was connected to mercury so I got my silver

fillings safely replaced in my teeth (which are still always around

50% mercury) and did many things to detoxify mercury and after 2 1/2

years I must say I am happier and less anxious than I have ever been

in my life.

I had 10 silver amalgam fillings and it cost quite a bit to replace (~

$3000) but I honestly think I would have done something crazy

otherwise...As I refused to take drugs for it. Still have a bit to go,

but after seeing so much improvement I have no doubts that I did the

right the thing.

-

>

> Hi All:

>

> Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right

now, and as I'm breastfeeding my daughter and trying to lead a healthy

life, both for her sake and mine, I'm not comfortable taking even the

10mg that I'm taking. I want some way to support my mental health

without using these dangerous drugs, but each time I come off them, I

am a basket case. I'm allergic to St. 's Wort, unfortunately.

>

> I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an effort

to push myself to really get back into it. I know that exercise

helps. Are there any specific other suggestions or techniques anyone

could offer? All help is appreciated!

>

> Amy

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD

with Windows®.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

>

September 1, 2008

> Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

> OCD, and ADD without medication.

Dr. Kathleen DesMaisons' program, Radiant Recovery, can do all that

just with nutrition for many people with those problems. (as you know

there are lots of kinds of depression and like someone said, a taper

off Prozac is best done with a doc. I know dozens of people in RR who

have come off SSRIs and DesMaisons' books can tell you how it works)

www.radiantrecovery.com

There's also a free list for nursing moms who are doing the RR program.

I've had depression lots of times but never when following RR style

food.

September 1, 2008

> > Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

> > OCD, and ADD without medication.

The book is " Potatoes not Prozac. " I forgot to mention that!

Get the 2008 edition, it has all kinds of new things from people doing

it.

September 1, 2008

Oh, and as far as getting back on the boat, I always focus on eating the good

stuff I enjoy,

adding good things to my diet. Butter is a big one for me. A nice hot bowl of

oatmeal in

the morning, after a long warm soak the night before, with cinnamon and nutmeg,

makes

me happy. Raw whole milk with cultured with a buttermilk culture - I love the

stuff. A

slow-cooked bone-in roast...with root vegetables, fennel, onions that fall

apart...mmm!

Making and eating some probiotic-containing cultured vegetables...yum! Raw wild

salmon, cured raw wild salmon...fresh fruits and vegetables...an avocado...if

you're having

trouble, maybe you haven't found the right stuff that tickles your taste buds.

When I cut out the gluten, I focused on learning about foods I hadn't considered

before. I

love blogs like this one for inspiration, not deprivation:

http://glutenfreegirl.blogspot.com/

And friends with lots of love!

Gray, Chandler, AZ

--- In , Amy Sikes-Dorman <amysikesdorman@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi All:

>

> Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression, OCD, and ADD

without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right now, and as I'm

breastfeeding my

daughter and trying to lead a healthy life, both for her sake and mine, I'm not

comfortable

taking even the 10mg that I'm taking. I want some way to support my mental

health

without using these dangerous drugs, but each time I come off them, I am a

basket case.

I'm allergic to St. 's Wort, unfortunately.

>

> I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an effort to push

myself to really

get back into it. I know that exercise helps. Are there any specific other

suggestions or

techniques anyone could offer? All help is appreciated!

>

> Amy

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD with

Windows®.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

>

September 1, 2008

Hi, Amy

It has helped many people I know to think of depression, NOT in terms of

" mental " health but in terms of " gut " health. Serotonin is made in the gut

and if you've fallen off your healthy-food diet, chances are you might not

be getting the nutrition you need to supporting good gut health. One thing

to do is to supplement your whole-food, dense-nutrient diet with digestive

enzymes.

http://www.enzymestuff.com/serotonin.htm - this article has some excellent

advice about amino acids converting to phenols, as well as making sure

you're not supplementing with 5HTP when taking SSRIs; understanding how

gut health affects brain " health " is the focus of this book:

Gershon's book 'The Second Brain. "

*http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/36/14/16 - " it's not the

brain, it's the gut " ......

Drink your kefir, eat only fermented grains (both fermented dairy and wheats

have biopeptides which are incredibly healing and restorative to the

gut.......).....eat your fermented veggies, etc......

I really want to encourage you to think in terms of gut health and NOT

mental health......when the gut issues are healed, the brain will

follow................the ODD and ADD will also go away.....

I have an Autistic son and one of his doctors, Dr. Martha Herbert, is one of

the leading researchers on the " guts are the 2nd brain.... " , and she's very

enthusiastic about all things Nourishing Traditions and their superlative

healing powers. She's a " follower " of NT, as well, and calls us " fellow

food cultists. " I've posted one of her articles at my blog, " It's Not

Just In the Head " -

http://www.ericsons.net/448/autism-its-not-just-in-the-head

Blessings,

Sharon

*

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Amy Sikes-Dorman <

amysikesdorman@...> wrote:

>

> Hi All:

>

> Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression, OCD, and

> ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right now, and as I'm

> breastfeeding my daughter and trying to lead a healthy life, both for her

> sake and mine, I'm not comfortable taking even the 10mg that I'm taking. I

> want some way to support my mental health without using these dangerous

> drugs, but each time I come off them, I am a basket case. I'm allergic to

> St. 's Wort, unfortunately.

>

> I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an effort to

> push myself to really get back into it. I know that exercise helps. Are

> there any specific other suggestions or techniques anyone could offer? All

> help is appreciated!

>

> Amy

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD with

> Windows®.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

>

September 2, 2008

--- Sauerkraut (not to mention pickles) is a pro-biotic? I'd never

heard that and will have to look into it-- do you have any ref's for

this? Will have to look into umeboshi plums too.

Yes omega 3's have been shown to help a lot with depression, but I

think it should be said here too that people with cholesterol that is

too low can have mood disorders too. And correct me if I'm wrong but

to my knowledge omega 3's generally reduce cholesterol-- I'm not

positive of this. Problems with low cholesterol do not seem to be

generally recognized in the medical community at large (most people

need to get theirs lower after all) although it is documented in

studies of some mental disorders especially having to do with

impulsiveness I believe-- check out pubmed to verify. So, one might

have to know what their particular body was low/high in. As we all

know too high cholesterol can be deadly though--but I thought the

opposite worth mentioning here too.

Kathy

In , " haecklers " <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> I used to have problems with depression and I found that probiotics

> helped a lot - real ones, not the pills. Sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir,

> umeboshi plums, Bubbie's sour pickles. It's possible that your

> digestive system is thrown off (maybe abx during delivery?) and your

> body is unable to make the serotonin, GABA, etc. that you need. Raw

> milk and cod liver oil are helpful in that regard as well (and good

> for baby)!

>

> Also incredibly helpful were omega-3 supplements with CoQ 10

> (together they made me much better than separate).

>

> You might also want to consider iodine supplements - the iodine has a

> role in regulating hormones, in case this is some post-partum

> depression from your hormones not settling back as they should.

>

> While a lot of this could be just sleep deprivation, a lot of people

> with lyme have those same problems. It seems to be part of adrenal

> fatigue/dysbiosis/poor digestion/food sensitivities that comes from

> lyme, but can be from other causes as well, like mercury overload.

> Lyme is an epidemic, you may want to look at www.canlyme.com for the

> symptoms and see if you think you want to get tested. I got it

> during pregnancy and it took me 5 years to figure it out because I

> kept blaming my symptoms on sleep deprivation, hormone changes,

> breastfeeding, etc.

>

> Hope this helps!

>

> >

> > Hi All:

> >

> > Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

> OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right

> now, and as I'm breastfeeding my daughter and trying to lead a

> healthy life, both for her sake and mine, I'm not comfortable taking

> even the 10mg that I'm taking. I want some way to support my mental

> health without using these dangerous drugs, but each time I come off

> them, I am a basket case. I'm allergic to St. 's Wort,

> unfortunately.

> >

> > I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an

> effort to push myself to really get back into it. I know that

> exercise helps. Are there any specific other suggestions or

> techniques anyone could offer? All help is appreciated!

> >

> > Amy

> >

> > _________________________________________________________________

> > Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD

> with Windows®.

> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

> >

September 2, 2008

If the sauerkraut and pickles haven't been pasturized/heat-treated,

yes, it was traditionally made fermented. (modern sauerkraut just

has lactic acid added, tho). I have a book I picked up (sorry lost

it again too) that said the kind of lactobacilli in salt ferments was

different from that in whey-type ferments and lasted in the gut for a

month instead of the week the whey-type ones do.

Additionally, the greyish coating on the outer leaves of cabbages and

some fruits is s. boulardii, a great yeast to get in the gut because

it protects it from toxins, bacteria, etc. and isn't harmful to the

good bacteria that belong there.

My understanding of how yeasts work is that they digest what they can

then go dormant and drop to the bottom, with the B-vitamins they've

made. They aren't dead, just waiting for more food, so eating the

sauerkraut may still get those good yeasts into you as well. I doubt

anybody's really researched it tho. I guess I could scrape it out of

the bottom of the sauerkraut jar and add some flour and water and see

what happens!

> > >

> > > Hi All:

> > >

> > > Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing

depression,

> > OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac

right

> > now, and as I'm breastfeeding my daughter and trying to lead a

> > healthy life, both for her sake and mine, I'm not comfortable

taking

> > even the 10mg that I'm taking. I want some way to support my

mental

> > health without using these dangerous drugs, but each time I come

off

> > them, I am a basket case. I'm allergic to St. 's Wort,

> > unfortunately.

> > >

> > > I've fallen off my traditional diet lately, and I'm making an

> > effort to push myself to really get back into it. I know that

> > exercise helps. Are there any specific other suggestions or

> > techniques anyone could offer? All help is appreciated!

> > >

> > > Amy

> > >

_________________________________________________________________

> > > Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a

DVD

> > with Windows®.

> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

> > >

September 2, 2008

Hi, Kathy

You're spot on about cholesterol issues. I have an Autistic son and that's

one thing we have to watch is that typically, Autistic children have

cholesterol that is too low which can contribute to a wide range of health

and " mental " disorders. We feel we owe his progress to many of the foods we

make using techniques from Nourishing Traditions, and Wild Fermentation,

without which, I'm quite sure he would be still locked away in the abyss of

his silent, self-mutilating world. The same concepts we have learned and

applied can be more widely applied to the conditions you've mentioned - OCD,

anxiety, depression, etc, which are all signs, imo, of a malfunctioning

out-of-balance diet deficient in good probiotic fermented foods,

nutrient-dense whole-foods, as well as mineral supplementation. Here's a

good article written by a chiropractor to get you going* *- a primer of the

importance of good, healthy gut flora. Pictures, to go with the text are

located at: *

http://jacobsonchiropractic.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/newest-gut.pdf*

Sharon

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Kathy <kathleenis_his@...> wrote:

> --- Sauerkraut (not to mention pickles) is a pro-biotic? I'd never

> heard that and will have to look into it-- do you have any ref's for

> this? Will have to look into umeboshi plums too.

>

September 3, 2008

Kathy,

There are lots of references to pro-biotic foods on the Weston Price

Foundation site: http://www.westonaprice.org/

Here's one on sauerkraut:

http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/sauerkraut.html

Kathy D.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Kathy

Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: Depression/OCD without the drugs

--- Sauerkraut (not to mention pickles) is a pro-biotic? I'd never

heard that and will have to look into it-- do you have any ref's for

this? Will have to look into umeboshi plums too.

September 3, 2008

Hi Amy:

I am catching up on some older posts. Dr. Natasha -McBride MD

spoke last year at the WAP conference. She will be speaking again

this year. I watched her DVD from last year's conference and then

purchased her book " Gut and Psychology Syndrome " . She believes a lot

of disorders are caused by gut dysbiosis - an imbalance in the gut

flora. On the cover of her book it says " Natural treatment for

Autism, Dyspraxia, ADD, Dyslexia, ADHD, Depression, Schizophrenia.

Inside the book the list continues on with allergies and more.

She cured her son of autism through diet. I purchased the book to try

to help me understand what was going on with my daughter's seemingly

sudden allergies to several healthy foods. The book starts out with a

discussion of " All disease begins in the gut " . She explains how an

immbalance in the gut flora can lead to an improperly functioning

immune system. It made a lot of sense what she said. She talks about

the GAPS diet and also refers the reader to Elaine Gottschall's book

called " Breaking the Vicious Cycle - Intestinal Health Through Diet.

Both authors recommend the use of probiotic foods as was mentioned in

another post. I have made the home-made sauerkraut from the

Nourishing Traditions book with and without the whey and it was super

easy and very tasty. Home-made yogurt is another pro-biotic food and

Elaine's book recommends to culture it for at least 24 hours so that

all the lactose is eaten up by the bacteria. This would be an

excellent food for those with lactose intolerance. One difference I

noted between the two authors, however, is that Natasha recommends

using a pro-biotic supplement (which she also sells via

www.guthealth.com) and Elaine does not.

They both promote taking cod liver oil, and the co-op I am a part of,

we recently split a case of the Bue Ice CLO from Green Pastures - the

best price is when purchased as a case of 12, and upon comparison it

is less expensive per serving than Carlson's brand and has a much

higher Vitamin A and D content (even with shipping costs figured in!).

Blue Ice CLO is one that is currently recommended by the WAPF.

After reading both of these books, my goal has been to eliminate

refined sugar completely from my home (except for making Kombucha),

and using only natural sweeteners such as honey and maple syrup for

baking treats (which we do only occasionally).

I highly recommend these two books and I truly hope they will help you

help yourself. Be sure to give it enough time. Blessings,

September 3, 2008

--- Hi Sharon, nice to meet another Mom here with an autistic child,

and one on the same general wavelength. This is probably why we know

this about cholesterol, huh? But I feel compelled to add, it

depends on someone's biological makeup --i.e. their bloodwork--whether

they need more or less cholesterol, generally. Auties generally do

seem to run low; (I've read that) so do some people with suicidal

tendencies (again, not always, but something for them to check out via

bloodwork). OK disclaimers over; let's get back to auties.

You know on another group for parents of autistic kids, one of the

kids her mom was talking about there (well ok she wasn't technically

on the spectrum; her brother was but her Mom thought she WOULD be if

she didn't do the same diet stuff as for her autistic brother) had a

wicked craving for butter-- when her mom wasn't looking she would eat

sticks of it! The mom kept it on hand just for baking for special

occasions but her daughter would sneak it out of the freezer. The

general wisdom espoused there was, 'if she craves it, it must be bad

for her'. I got thinking no, it could be the opposite! And said so

too, though no one to my recollection wrote back to agree with me. But

that's the story of my life... (Sorry, sucking it in.. lol )Anyways I

got to reading up on what is in butter but besides the cholesterol, it

is naturally high in vitamin A. (And of course butter from grass-fed

'natural' cows is going to be better, especially as fat is where all

the toxins tend to collect.)

Your link didn't work, sorry to say, but thanks anyways. I'm familiar

with the whole leaky gut theory though. How old is your son?

Kathy

In , " Sharon son " <skericson@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi, Kathy

> You're spot on about cholesterol issues. I have an Autistic son and

that's

> one thing we have to watch is that typically, Autistic children have

> cholesterol that is too low which can contribute to a wide range of

health

> and " mental " disorders. We feel we owe his progress to many of the

foods we

> make using techniques from Nourishing Traditions, and Wild Fermentation,

> without which, I'm quite sure he would be still locked away in the

abyss of

> his silent, self-mutilating world. The same concepts we have

learned and

> applied can be more widely applied to the conditions you've

mentioned - OCD,

> anxiety, depression, etc, which are all signs, imo, of a malfunctioning

> out-of-balance diet deficient in good probiotic fermented foods,

> nutrient-dense whole-foods, as well as mineral supplementation.

Here's a

> good article written by a chiropractor to get you going* *- a primer

of the

> importance of good, healthy gut flora. Pictures, to go with the

text are

> located at: *

> http://jacobsonchiropractic.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/newest-gut.pdf*

> Sharon

>

> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Kathy <kathleenis_his@...> wrote:

>

> > --- Sauerkraut (not to mention pickles) is a pro-biotic? I'd never

> > heard that and will have to look into it-- do you have any ref's for

> > this? Will have to look into umeboshi plums too.

> >

>

September 3, 2008