Re: Depression/OCD without the drugs

[Guest guest]

Amy: Have you looked into Dr. Natasha McBride's book on Gut and

Psychology? She believes gut dysbiosis is related to a long list of

problems including the one's you have mentioned. Google her and you

will find a bunch of info. She is going to be speaking again at the

WAPF conference this year in San Francisco. You can also download her

conference session from last year's conference off the WAPF website.

> > Hi All:

> >

> > Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

> OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right

[Guest guest]

The book " Unstuck " by Gordon is a tremendously good resource for

holistic treatment of depression. He's a Harvard-trained psychiatrist

with 40 years of clinical experience. In the first section of the

book, he presents evidence that proves depression is not caused by a

serotonin deficiency, and that antidepressant drugs are not as safe as

claimed. He then offers a " seven-stage journey " out of depression,

including: food and nutritional supplements; Chinese medicine;

movement, exercise, and dance; psychotherapy, meditation and guided

imagery; and spiritual practice and prayer. Many of these approaches

are clinically proven to be at least as effective (and sometimes more

effective in the long-term) than antidepressants.

It's the best book I've seen on treating depression holistically - and

I've read a lot of them! Another book I'd recommend is " The

Depression Book " , by Cheri Huber (a Zen teacher).

There is some interesting data suggesting depression may be caused by

a chronic infection of some sort, including Lyme. If you think that's

the case for you, you might want to look into the Marshall Protocol.

I still haven't made up my mind about it, and some of it directly

contradicts the Nourishing Traditions philosophy (they believe vitamin

D is harmful for people with chronic disease). However, the results

people are having are impressive. The Marshall Protocol has been

mentioned on this board a couple of times recently.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Is there any way to self-test for lyme?

On 9/20/08, Kresser <chriskresser@...> wrote:

> The book " Unstuck " by Gordon is a tremendously good resource for

> holistic treatment of depression. He's a Harvard-trained psychiatrist

> with 40 years of clinical experience. In the first section of the

> book, he presents evidence that proves depression is not caused by a

> serotonin deficiency, and that antidepressant drugs are not as safe as

> claimed. He then offers a " seven-stage journey " out of depression,

> including: food and nutritional supplements; Chinese medicine;

> movement, exercise, and dance; psychotherapy, meditation and guided

> imagery; and spiritual practice and prayer. Many of these approaches

> are clinically proven to be at least as effective (and sometimes more

> effective in the long-term) than antidepressants.

>

> It's the best book I've seen on treating depression holistically - and

> I've read a lot of them! Another book I'd recommend is " The

> Depression Book " , by Cheri Huber (a Zen teacher).

>

> There is some interesting data suggesting depression may be caused by

> a chronic infection of some sort, including Lyme. If you think that's

> the case for you, you might want to look into the Marshall Protocol.

> I still haven't made up my mind about it, and some of it directly

> contradicts the Nourishing Traditions philosophy (they believe vitamin

> D is harmful for people with chronic disease). However, the results

> people are having are impressive. The Marshall Protocol has been

> mentioned on this board a couple of times recently.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

You can click on the symptoms link at www.canlyme.com - they say that

the diagnosis sometimes has to be based on symptoms because not all

people with lyme get a positive test due to problems in the testing

method (but the Bowen Q-Ribb is supposed to be 99% correct). I

haven't looked at it lately but it used to say if you have over a

certain percentage of the symptoms you likely have lyme.

There are different strains that cause different symptoms, and some

strains cause positive tests more reliably than others. I think the

type that causes neuro problems is less likely to cause positive

reactions on the labs than the one that causes arthritis and joint

problems, probably because that's the one they used to make the test

in the first place. That is per the " Cure Unknown " book by Pamela

Weintraub about lyme - which is very medical and a great read, it

kind of outlines the different theories of how to use antibiotics to

cure it.

> > The book " Unstuck " by Gordon is a tremendously good

resource for

> > holistic treatment of depression. He's a Harvard-trained

psychiatrist

> > with 40 years of clinical experience. In the first section of the

> > book, he presents evidence that proves depression is not caused

by a

> > serotonin deficiency, and that antidepressant drugs are not as

safe as

> > claimed. He then offers a " seven-stage journey " out of

depression,

> > including: food and nutritional supplements; Chinese medicine;

> > movement, exercise, and dance; psychotherapy, meditation and

guided

> > imagery; and spiritual practice and prayer. Many of these

approaches

> > are clinically proven to be at least as effective (and sometimes

more

> > effective in the long-term) than antidepressants.

> >

> > It's the best book I've seen on treating depression holistically -

and

> > I've read a lot of them! Another book I'd recommend is " The

> > Depression Book " , by Cheri Huber (a Zen teacher).

> >

> > There is some interesting data suggesting depression may be

caused by

> > a chronic infection of some sort, including Lyme. If you think

that's

> > the case for you, you might want to look into the Marshall

Protocol.

> > I still haven't made up my mind about it, and some of it directly

> > contradicts the Nourishing Traditions philosophy (they believe

vitamin

> > D is harmful for people with chronic disease). However, the

results

> > people are having are impressive. The Marshall Protocol has been

> > mentioned on this board a couple of times recently.

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a large portion of the text from www.canlyme.com (symptoms

link) (you may want to scroll down to them)

If left untreated or treated insufficiently symptoms may creep into

ones life over weeks, months or even years. They wax and wane and may

even go into remission only to come out at a later date...even years

later.

With symptoms present, a negative lab result means very little as

they are very unreliable. Read here. The diagnosis, with today's

limitations in the lab, must be clinical.

Many Lyme patients were firstly diagnosed with other illnesses such

as Juvenile Arthritis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Reactive Arthritis,

Infectious Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Fibromyalgia, Raynaud's

Syndrome, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Interstitial Cystis,

Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease, Fifth Disease, Multiple Sclerosis,

scleroderma, lupus, early ALS, early Alzheimers Disease, crohn's

disease, ménières syndrome, reynaud's syndrome, sjogren's syndrome,

irritable bowel syndrome, colitis, prostatitis, psychiatric disorders

(bipolar, depression, etc.), encephalitis, sleep disorders, thyroid

disease and various other illnesses. see Other Diseases and

Lyme...Relationship

If you have received one of these diagnoses please scroll down and

see if you recognize a broader range of symptoms.

If you are a doctor please re-examine these diagnoses, incorporating

Lyme in the differential diagnoses.

The one common thread with Lyme Disease is the number of systems

affected (brain, central nervous system, autonomic nervous system,

cardiovascular, digestive, respiratory, musco-skeletal, etc.) and

sometimes the hourly/daily/weekly/monthly changing of symptoms.

No one will have all symptoms but if many are present serious

consideration must be given by any physician to Lyme as the possible

culprit. Lyme is endemic in Canada period. The infection rate with

Lyme in the tick population is exploding in North America and as the

earth's temperature warms this trend is expected to continue.

Symptoms may come and go in varying degrees with fluctuation from one

symptom to another. There may be a period of what feels like

remission only to be followed by another onset of symptoms.

Free Canadian Lyme Disease Brochure (a computer file for you to

print)

PRINT AND CIRCLE ALL YES ANSWERS ( 20 yes represents a serious

potential and Lyme should be included in diagnostic workup )

Symptoms of Lyme Disease

The Tick Bite (fewer than 50% recall a tick bite or get/see the rash)

Rash at site of bite

Rashes on other parts of your body

Rash basically circular and spreading out (or generalized)

Raised rash, disappearing and recurring

Head, Face, Neck

Unexplained hair loss

Headache, mild or severe, Seizures

Pressure in Head, White Matter Lesions in Head (MRI)

Twitching of facial or other muscles

Facial paralysis (Bell's Palsy)

Tingling of nose, (tip of) tongue, cheek or facial flushing

Stiff or painful neck

Jaw pain or stiffness

Dental problems (unexplained)

Sore throat, clearing throat a lot, phlegm ( flem ), hoarseness,

runny nose

Eyes/Vision

Double or blurry vision

Increased floating spots

Pain in eyes, or swelling around eyes

Oversensitivity to light

Flashing lights/Peripheral waves/phantom images in corner of eyes

Ears/Hearing

Decreased hearing in one or both ears, plugged ears

Buzzing in ears

Pain in ears, oversensitivity to sounds

Ringing in one or both ears

Digestive and Excretory Systems

Diarrhea

Constipation

Irritable bladder (trouble starting, stopping) or Interstitial

cystitis

Upset stomach (nausea or pain) or GERD (gastroesophageal reflux

disease)

Musculoskeletal System

Bone pain, joint pain or swelling, carpal tunnel syndrome

Stiffness of joints, back, neck, tennis elbow

Muscle pain or cramps, (Fibromyalgia)

Respiratory and Circulatory Systems

Shortness of breath, can't get full/satisfying breath, cough

Chest pain or rib soreness

Night sweats or unexplained chills

Heart palpitations or extra beats

Endocarditis, Heart blockage

Neurologic System

Tremors or unexplained shaking

Burning or stabbing sensations in the body

Fatigue, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Weakness, peripheral neuropathy or

partial paralysis

Pressure in the head

Numbness in body, tingling, pinpricks

Poor balance, dizziness, difficulty walking

Increased motion sickness

Lightheadedness, wooziness

Psychological well-being

Mood swings, irritability, bi-polar disorder

Unusual depression

Disorientation (getting or feeling lost)

Feeling as if you are losing your mind

Over-emotional reactions, crying easily

Too much sleep, or insomnia

Difficulty falling or staying asleep

Narcolepsy, sleep apnea

Panic attacks, anxiety

Mental Capability

Memory loss (short or long term)

Confusion, difficulty in thinking

Difficulty with concentration or reading

Going to the wrong place

Speech difficulty (slurred or slow)

Stammering speech

Forgetting how to perform simple tasks

Reproduction and Sexuality

Loss of sex drive

Sexual dysfunction

Unexplained menstral pain, irregularity

Unexplained breast pain, discharge

Testicular or pelvic pain

General Well-being

Unexplained weight gain, loss

Extreme fatigue

Swollen glands/lymph nodes

Unexplained fevers (high or low grade)

Continual infections (sinus, kidney, eye, etc.)

Symptoms seem to change, come and go

Pain migrates (moves) to different body parts

Early on, experienced a " flu-like " illness, after which you have not

since felt well.

Low body temperature

Allergies/Chemical sensitivities

Increased effect from alcohol and possible worse hangover

>

> Is there any way to self-test for lyme?

>

[Guest guest]

I've been trying to do the salt/c and i keep throwing up. Any tips??

it was helping already as I was sleeping better but after about a week i

started throwing up when I took it.

Dawn

haecklers wrote:

>

> Yeah, I've heard all that stuff Amy mentioned talked about in the

> lyme group, especially the OCD in people who didn't used to have it.

> That and anxiety attacks.

>

> I had depression with lyme as well, but it was hard to tell it from

> fatigue, since having little interest in doing things is a symptom of

> both depression and fatigue - as is trouble sleeping.

>

> I did find that taking CoQ 10 and Omega 3's together, and starting

> cod liver oil helped, but curing the lyme really brought out my good

> side again. My friend nearly divorced his wife due to the

> personality changes she gradually got from lyme - she started being

> crabby, nit-picky, getting explosive anger, etc. which was totally

> unlike her. She got Bell's Palsy and they diagnosed lyme when trying

> to figure out why she got that, treated it (IV Rocephin for 6 months

> then oral antibiotics for a year) and once the abx kicked in her

> personality (the nice one) kicked back in and they both realized how

> much effect the lyme had had on her. Amazing what little germs can

> do!

>

> I got 4 weeks of Doxycycline, twice, then gave up on the doctor and

> treated myself with the salt/c protocol - which worked for me. See

> the lymestrategies group for more info. - it's a great supportive

> group and meshes nicely with Weston A. Price.

>

>

> >

> > I just want to throw this into the mix. If you have depression, it

> is worth getting tested for Lyme disease. I was recently diagnosed

> with it (having tested very strongly on Western Blot and a few other

> tests) and I know that it can be the source of depression. Most

> people, if they know anything about Lyme, probably think that it is

> associated with arththritic-type feelings in the body. In my case,

> for example,this was not true.

> >

> > If you do get tested, go to a Doctor who knows something about it.

> HMOs are notorious for under-diagnosing Lyme, or even if the do

> diagnose it, they undertreat it. It would cut too much into their

> bottom line to do otherwise.

> >

> > It would appear that I have perhaps been " barking up a wrong tree "

> for many years, not having known I had Lyme. We will see if this is

> true, as my treatment progresses.

> >

> > At present long-term antibiotics are the best known treatment (I

> know, I know, but this bacteria is very smart and exceptionally hard

> to root out...even with antibiotics). If you don't want to try

> antibiotics, Stehpeh Buhner has an excellent book out for

> alternatives, called " Healing Lyme " .

> >

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

you can listen to her talks from last year's conference here

http://www.greekgiftsetc.com/GAPS/

>

> Amy: Have you looked into Dr. Natasha McBride's book on Gut and

> Psychology? She believes gut dysbiosis is related to a long list of

> problems including the one's you have mentioned. Google her and you

> will find a bunch of info. She is going to be speaking again at the

> WAPF conference this year in San Francisco. You can also download her

> conference session from last year's conference off the WAPF website.

>

>

>

>

> > > Hi All:

> > >

> > > Just wondering if anyone has any insight into healing depression,

> > OCD, and ADD without medication. I'm on a low dose of Prozac right

>

[Guest guest]

It's not good on an empty stomach - so eat something first. Also, if

it's giving you a lot of bloating or gas suspect candida - Vitamin C

and candida don't mix. I got rid of my candida/bloating using

unpasturized sauerkraut and kimchi taken daily. Sodium lactate, made

when salt and lactic acid are together is supposed to be pretty

strongly anti-candida. So I'd guess any salt-lactofermented foods

would be good. Sour pickles, etc. if you can find them salt-

fermented.

> > >

> > > I just want to throw this into the mix. If you have

depression, it

> > is worth getting tested for Lyme disease. I was recently

diagnosed

> > with it (having tested very strongly on Western Blot and a few

other

> > tests) and I know that it can be the source of depression. Most

> > people, if they know anything about Lyme, probably think that it

is

> > associated with arththritic-type feelings in the body. In my

case,

> > for example,this was not true.

> > >

> > > If you do get tested, go to a Doctor who knows something about

it.

> > HMOs are notorious for under-diagnosing Lyme, or even if the do

> > diagnose it, they undertreat it. It would cut too much into their

> > bottom line to do otherwise.

> > >

> > > It would appear that I have perhaps been " barking up a wrong

tree "

> > for many years, not having known I had Lyme. We will see if this

is

> > true, as my treatment progresses.

> > >

> > > At present long-term antibiotics are the best known treatment (I

> > know, I know, but this bacteria is very smart and exceptionally

hard

> > to root out...even with antibiotics). If you don't want to try

> > antibiotics, Stehpeh Buhner has an excellent book out for

> > alternatives, called " Healing Lyme " .

> > >

> > > -

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

so i am curious about lyme now that you posted this excerpt that says many

patients were firstly diagnosed with these other illnesses. i was diagnosed with

Raynaud's-- i believe it was during middle school or early high school. so i am

wondering if i should get tested for lyme. i felt like i got rid of my

depression and anxiety with my change in diet and addition of supplements over

the past 3 years, but i have been having recurring problems. mainly with

depression and anxiety, but also anger and hopelessness. i have a 3 year old so

i often just think this is an issue of being a parent of a young child as it is

extremely mentally and emotionally challenging/exhausting for me. but i find

myself scouring the shelves of the health food store for herbal tinctures and

Bach's flower essences that would help me because i am so miserable much of the

time. but, i don't feel i have a great amount of the symptoms listed on the lyme

site that they say would be a good indicator of having lyme. is the test

accurate enough and worth it even if it comes back negative? do i need to find a

specialist in my area and if so is there a link for that? any thoughts or

advice?

thanks, amanda

Many Lyme patients were firstly diagnosed with other illnesses such

as Juvenile Arthritis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Reactive Arthritis,

Infectious Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Fibromyalgia, Raynaud's

Syndrome, ...

.

[Guest guest]

If you get the Bowen Q-RiBb, there's not much chance of it giving you

false results. Supposedly they take a lot of insurance co's too

now. They use darkfield microscope to actually see the organisms,

which is why its so accurate and can tell you how many they see in a

given amount, to give an idea of how infected you are. I believe

cash it's around $250. Here's the link:

http://www.bowen.org/NewSite/LimeDisease.html

I thought for several years it was the challenges of motherhood and

sleep deprivation from babies who didn't sleep at night that kept me

so tired and " off " . I guess that's why I had lyme so long without

realizing it. But still, it could be something else like celiac that

is causing it.

FYI: I find bee pollen, from a local apiary and sold refrigerated

and " raw " a very good pick-me-up. Better than caffeine. Your body

needs minerals to make energy and when you're depleted you feel

emotionally off and drained. If you're still breastfeeding, you may

need some good mineral supplementation, in addition to good organic

food. If you can't find a local apiary that sells it raw, you can

try www.localharvest.org too. If you get it bottled in capsules,

odds are it's been irradiated or heated and the enzymes are dead and

the structure could be changed.

--- In , " " <amanda@...>

wrote:

>

> so i am curious about lyme now that you posted this excerpt that

says many patients were firstly diagnosed with these other illnesses.

i was diagnosed with Raynaud's-- i believe it was during middle

school or early high school. so i am wondering if i should get

tested for lyme. i felt like i got rid of my depression and anxiety

with my change in diet and addition of supplements over the past 3

years, but i have been having recurring problems. mainly with

depression and anxiety, but also anger and hopelessness. i have a 3

year old so i often just think this is an issue of being a parent of

a young child as it is extremely mentally and emotionally

challenging/exhausting for me. but i find myself scouring the shelves

of the health food store for herbal tinctures and Bach's flower

essences that would help me because i am so miserable much of the

time. but, i don't feel i have a great amount of the symptoms listed

on the lyme site that they say would be a good indicator of having

lyme. is the test accurate enough and worth it even if it comes back

negative? do i need to find a specialist in my area and if so is

there a link for that? any thoughts or advice?

>

> thanks, amanda

>

>

>

>

> Many Lyme patients were firstly diagnosed with other illnesses

such

> as Juvenile Arthritis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Reactive Arthritis,

> Infectious Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Fibromyalgia, Raynaud's

> Syndrome, ...

>

>

> .

>

>

>