Re: Chicken Choices

[Guest guest]

Desh,

I'm confused. Time after time, you keep telling those of us that choose to

consume free range (organic is a secondary benefit to me) that factory

produced chickens provide more nutrients for the buck. Are you trying to get

us to give up free range? Or defending your choice not to consume

free-range? You don't have to defend your choice to THIS group! That's what

this group is ALL about - choices in nutrition and trying to help educate

each other on " better " ways.

For me, the hormones, chemicals, and minerals (arsenic, for example) that

ARE in the crapola chickens is FAR more scary that the vitamins and minerals

that are not in them! I gave up store bought hamburger when I understood how

they get all that meat off the bone, and I gave up store bought chickens

when I learned two things:

1. the State of AR brought a lawsuit against one of the major chicken

producers because of the high levels of arsenic in the ground water because

the producers use arsenic for parasite control

2. They have employees that spend their entire shift going from chicken

house to chicken house picking up the dead birds off the ground that die

because of the high stress conditions

But, these are MY choices, I won't purchase chicken or ground beef to be

consumed in my home that is not free-range. You are free to make your

choices and you don't have to defend them because they are YOUR choices!

To your health,

Kathy

Re: How much stock should 1 chicken make?

Here, an organic chicken is at minimum 12 bucks, factory chicken goes on

sale for 3 bucks. I don't buy grocery store eggs, but I do know that

they are less than half the price of the wapf-ish organic farmer's market

eggs. Okay, I fail to understand how one organic chicken can contain the

same amount of nutrients as three factory chickens, or 3 factory eggs the

amount of nutrients as one soy-free organic egg. You will have to find a

study to prove that- could have the same nutrients and might have the

same nutrition are just vague assertions. There is way more protein in

the three crapola chickens and 3 crapola eggs, per dollars spent. More

chemicals, bad politics, sure. But way more animal protein, which means

more amino acids at the very least. It is not the same nutrition, AT

ALL.

Desh

[Guest guest]

I think she was just poking a hole in the argument that on a per dollar

basis, one free range/organic chicken is equal to the equivalent number of

conventional chickens nutritionally. It is definitely cheaper to purchase

the conventional chickens in terms of many nutrients per dollar (there are

of course a few exceptions for nutrients that just aren't found in

conventional chickens).

We tend to get caught up in the whole " more nutritious " thing and don't

realize that it isn't all around. Most free range items are more nutritious

in terms of fat soluble vitamins and vital fats, as well as by what isn't in

them. I'm sure we all agree that eating the free range chicken is

" healthier " but unless specific nutrients are listed " more nutritious " is

misleading (such as making someone think a free range chicken has the same

amount of protein as 3 conventional chickens).

I honestly think the whole comparison is kind of silly considering chicken

isn't the only food in anyone's diet.

-Lana

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Kathy Dickson <kathy.dickson@...>

wrote:

> Desh,

>

> I'm confused. Time after time, you keep telling those of us that choose to

> consume free range (organic is a secondary benefit to me) that factory

> produced chickens provide more nutrients for the buck. Are you trying to

> get

> us to give up free range? Or defending your choice not to consume

> free-range? You don't have to defend your choice to THIS group! That's

> what

> this group is ALL about - choices in nutrition and trying to help educate

> each other on " better " ways.

>

> For me, the hormones, chemicals, and minerals (arsenic, for example) that

> ARE in the crapola chickens is FAR more scary that the vitamins and

> minerals

> that are not in them! I gave up store bought hamburger when I understood

> how

> they get all that meat off the bone, and I gave up store bought chickens

> when I learned two things:

> 1. the State of AR brought a lawsuit against one of the major chicken

> producers because of the high levels of arsenic in the ground water

> because

> the producers use arsenic for parasite control

>

> 2. They have employees that spend their entire shift going from chicken

> house to chicken house picking up the dead birds off the ground that die

> because of the high stress conditions

>

> But, these are MY choices, I won't purchase chicken or ground beef to be

> consumed in my home that is not free-range. You are free to make your

> choices and you don't have to defend them because they are YOUR choices!

>

> To your health,

> Kathy

>

> Re: How much stock should 1 chicken make?

>

> Here, an organic chicken is at minimum 12 bucks, factory chicken goes on

> sale for 3 bucks. I don't buy grocery store eggs, but I do know that

> they are less than half the price of the wapf-ish organic farmer's market

> eggs. Okay, I fail to understand how one organic chicken can contain the

> same amount of nutrients as three factory chickens, or 3 factory eggs the

> amount of nutrients as one soy-free organic egg. You will have to find a

> study to prove that- could have the same nutrients and might have the

> same nutrition are just vague assertions. There is way more protein in

> the three crapola chickens and 3 crapola eggs, per dollars spent. More

> chemicals, bad politics, sure. But way more animal protein, which means

> more amino acids at the very least. It is not the same nutrition, AT

> ALL.

>

> Desh

[Guest guest]

>

> eggs. Okay, I fail to understand how one organic chicken can

> contain the

> same amount of nutrients as three factory chickens, or 3 factory

> eggs the

> amount of nutrients as one soy-free organic egg. You will have to

> find a

If you read those links I sent out from Mother Earth News, the

pastured eggs they tested had 2/3 more vitamin A, 2 times more omega

3, 3 times more vitamin E, and 7 times more beta carotene.

That does not take into consideration the dangerous health effects of

antibiotics, hormones, concentrated pesticides in the flesh, and

genetically modified soy and corn feed.

So I would say, based on this data, that based on those numbers,

eating less organic chickens and eggs would be better for you than

eating larger quantities of the battery eggs and chickens.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Well, I don't eat battery eggs. I get perfect eggs, for 2 bucks a dozen.

But I can only get 4 dozen a week usually, so if I need to make birthday

cake for someone, I go with the next best thing at the health food store.

Poor people exist who cannot afford organic chicken. If you can't afford

organic chicken, chances are you can't afford beef bones. So, telling a

truly poor person to eat 1 chicken every 2 weeks, instead of 4, really,

really deprives that person of the nutrients in bone broth and the

chicken, arsenic or no.

Some estimates are greater than these mainstream ones, that up to 50% of

Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/04/04/cb.paycheck/index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2003-08-11-homeless_x.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/20/business/main3388326.shtml?sour

ce=RSSattr=Business_3388326

Do these people not deserve a voice on lists like these? You can say

organic chicken is better, of course it is better. But it is not always

the better choice.

Desh

[Guest guest]

I'm the person who originally asked the question,

about whether eating non-organic chicken was not a

good idea.

And I will admit, that like many people, up until I

asked the question, I automatically identified myself

as someone who could not afford free-range or organic

(even though I didn't first actually look into the

finer details before making that assumption). Many of

us are guilty of jumping to that same conclusion

because we put free-range and organic on a pedestal -

it's for " those " people, it's not for me.

Therefore I'm grateful to have this discussion. I have

now actually learned there is more significant

nutrition in free-range (one of the other pages on the

Mother Earth News website also talks about the

increased nutrition in grass-fed beef).

If we were only measuring nutrition, then I could get

away with eating 1/3 as much meat/eggs/dairy as I do

now. But we also have to account for hunger. What

would I be able to eat the rest of the time, if I

could only afford to eat meat 1/3 as often as I do

now? And now that I'm aware of the nutritional

benefits of free-range and organic, I can't think of

much else (fruits, veggies, dairy, eggs) that I'd

really want to eat from my regular discount grocery

store. So what could I afford to eat?

And when a person doesn't have the money to afford

free-range or organic, we can't assume they'll be able

to afford to rack up long-distance calls, trying to

locate farmers, nor the gas it would take to get to

those farms (if they even own a car). Or the time (if

they're working more than one job). Things don't come

as easily to those people without sufficient money (at

least not in the cities I've lived in).

But look at it this way. If " regular " food (feedlot

beef and caged chickens) are so full of toxins, why

should I buy it at any price? Am I not risking my

health, my entire life, by buying that stuff? I firmly

believe " you are what you eat " , so why knowingly put

chemicals into my body?

I think my conclusion (as a non-affluent person) is

not to be so quick to give up on the notion of eating

free-range and organic, but instead to find a more

affordable way to do so.

Going to the local Whole Foods and paying those kinds

of prices is not the answer. A little more creativity

will be needed.

I belong to a Rawfeeding group for my pets, and

ironically I was the person who came up with a list of

29 ways to find cheaper sources of raw meat (to feed

our pets). I think it is time I sat down with that

list and adapted it for people. There are ways to get

excellent quality meat for less money, it just takes a

bit more work.

Thanks so much for opening my eyes - now there is no

way I want to knowingly put those dangerous toxins

into my body again. But now I can no longer sit back

and simply say " I can't " anymore - I must create a way

- I must find options.

Lis

--- De Bell-Frantz <deshabell@...> wrote:

> Poor people exist who cannot afford organic chicken.

> If you can't afford

> organic chicken, chances are you can't afford beef

> bones. So, telling a

> truly poor person to eat 1 chicken every 2 weeks,

> instead of 4, really,

> really deprives that person of the nutrients in bone

> broth and the

> chicken, arsenic or no.

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[Guest guest]

On Mar 21, 2008, at 7:21 PM, De Bell-Frantz wrote:

>

> Poor people exist who cannot afford organic chicken. If you can't

> afford

> organic chicken, chances are you can't afford beef bones. So,

> telling a

> truly poor person to eat 1 chicken every 2 weeks, instead of 4,

> really,

> really deprives that person of the nutrients in bone broth and the

> chicken, arsenic or no.

I get chicken backs and necks at Whole Foods for $1.80 a pound. In Los

Angeles!

Similarly, the chicken farmer I met at the farmer's market who only

sells eggs and onions and some other kinds of produce, said he would

sell me chickens -- organic, real pastured chickens who are not fed

soy. The catch -- he kills 'em on the spot at the market, I take them

home, feathers and all, and process them in my own kitchen. Only $8/

bird!

I think most poor people could afford a few pounds of necks and backs

to make stock once a week. I think adding bone broth to rice and beans

and vegetable soups would be more nutritious than eating lots of

hormone-laden pesticide-laden chicken breasts that have a lot less

nutrients.

I'm not poor but I am willing to process chickens on a Sunday if it

means I get good quality chickens for my family. If I were poor, damn

straight I'd be doing it this way. Bring the neighbors over, and

instead of sitting in front of the TV watching football on the

weekend, throw a chicken processing party.

Also, from what I have read, the most expensive foods we buy are the

packaged and processed foods. Most poor people spend a lot of money on

that stuff. If they cut that out, they'd have more money to buy high

quality foods.

So instead of buying corn flakes, Mac & Cheese, TV dinners and snack

foods, they can buy big bags of black beans and lentils and rice --

even organic -- and it will be a lot cheaper. Which leaves more money

for high-quality meats and dairy.

Here's an interesting article -- this woman did a test to see if

processed foods really are cheaper. She found that they are not.

http://calorielab.com/news/2005/08/08/real-food-cheaper-than-processed-food-clai\

ms-health-nut/

I also think that there are LOTS of ways to save money on food that do

not require you to buy factory farm animal products. Joining or

starting food co-ops, buying in bulk (like 1/4 cow), growing your own

vegetables and herbs and canning and fermenting them, keeping your own

chickens, keeping a cow, keeping honey bees, etc.

There's a huge movement of urban homesteading going on in this

country. People in apartments are growing herbs and vegetables,

shopping at their local farmer's markets, joining co-ops, etc. I live

in the middle of Los Angeles -- in the city -- and I am growing every

kind of herb and 3 kinds of lettuce, tomatoes, avocados, lemon, etc.

etc. My neighbor is trading me oranges and figs for my lemons and

strawberries.

I just don't think poverty is an excuse to support factory farms.

Do we always need to support small farms? Do we need to be fanatical

about it?

Of course not. As always, we do the best we can.

But I think if there is a way we can do it, we should try. I think we

of all people should be supporting these small farms and co-ops and

farmer's market. I think we need to vote with our pocketbooks and work

together to rebuild our farms and our land and our country, and take

it back from these corporations and their toxic, chemical-laden fake

food.

This is not just about nutrition. It's about politics. It's about

taking back our country.

That's what I think.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Well, Ann Marie, that all sounds like an awful lot of work that most folks

are NOT willing to do. And it doesn't sound very convenient either, and for

most folks, its all about convenience. That's why the packaged food is so

popular, less work, more convenient!

Seriously, our desire to make our lives easier and more convenient is the

cause of the health crisis and food crisis we are in. Heck no, its not easy

meeting my raw milk farmer at 6:30 am so I can get to work for a 7am

conference call. Yes, it cramps my Saturday style to have to pick up my

veggie co-op order at a certain time on Saturdays, and you know Saturday is

my only free day. And those Saturdays when I have go pick up my grass fed

meat from the farmer, well the whole day is shot on procuring healthy food!

But, its worth EVERY minute! I never felt so healthy in my entire life as I

have the last 3 years since I went to listen to Sally Fallon speak at a

seminar, and was treated to a delicious lunch prepared by the grass fed and

organic farmers in North Central Texas. What an awakening! What a wonderful

change in my life!

By the way, I agree with you!

Kathy

Re: Re: Chicken Choices

On Mar 21, 2008, at 7:21 PM, De Bell-Frantz wrote:

>

> Poor people exist who cannot afford organic chicken. If you can't

> afford

> organic chicken, chances are you can't afford beef bones. So,

> telling a

> truly poor person to eat 1 chicken every 2 weeks, instead of 4,

> really,

> really deprives that person of the nutrients in bone broth and the

> chicken, arsenic or no.

I get chicken backs and necks at Whole Foods for $1.80 a pound. In Los

Angeles!

Similarly, the chicken farmer I met at the farmer's market who only

sells eggs and onions and some other kinds of produce, said he would

sell me chickens -- organic, real pastured chickens who are not fed

soy. The catch -- he kills 'em on the spot at the market, I take them

home, feathers and all, and process them in my own kitchen. Only $8/

bird!

I think most poor people could afford a few pounds of necks and backs

to make stock once a week. I think adding bone broth to rice and beans

and vegetable soups would be more nutritious than eating lots of

hormone-laden pesticide-laden chicken breasts that have a lot less

nutrients.

I'm not poor but I am willing to process chickens on a Sunday if it

means I get good quality chickens for my family. If I were poor, damn

straight I'd be doing it this way. Bring the neighbors over, and

instead of sitting in front of the TV watching football on the

weekend, throw a chicken processing party.

Also, from what I have read, the most expensive foods we buy are the

packaged and processed foods. Most poor people spend a lot of money on

that stuff. If they cut that out, they'd have more money to buy high

quality foods.

So instead of buying corn flakes, Mac & Cheese, TV dinners and snack

foods, they can buy big bags of black beans and lentils and rice --

even organic -- and it will be a lot cheaper. Which leaves more money

for high-quality meats and dairy.

Here's an interesting article -- this woman did a test to see if

processed foods really are cheaper. She found that they are not.

http://calorielab.com/news/2005/08/08/real-food-cheaper-than-processed-food-

claims-health-nut/

I also think that there are LOTS of ways to save money on food that do

not require you to buy factory farm animal products. Joining or

starting food co-ops, buying in bulk (like 1/4 cow), growing your own

vegetables and herbs and canning and fermenting them, keeping your own

chickens, keeping a cow, keeping honey bees, etc.

There's a huge movement of urban homesteading going on in this

country. People in apartments are growing herbs and vegetables,

shopping at their local farmer's markets, joining co-ops, etc. I live

in the middle of Los Angeles -- in the city -- and I am growing every

kind of herb and 3 kinds of lettuce, tomatoes, avocados, lemon, etc.

etc. My neighbor is trading me oranges and figs for my lemons and

strawberries.

I just don't think poverty is an excuse to support factory farms.

Do we always need to support small farms? Do we need to be fanatical

about it?

Of course not. As always, we do the best we can.

But I think if there is a way we can do it, we should try. I think we

of all people should be supporting these small farms and co-ops and

farmer's market. I think we need to vote with our pocketbooks and work

together to rebuild our farms and our land and our country, and take

it back from these corporations and their toxic, chemical-laden fake

food.

This is not just about nutrition. It's about politics. It's about

taking back our country.

That's what I think.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

PS: I did not say this was easy. I work full-time, take care of a

baby, and have a number of personal crises going on at the moment

(divorce, illness, etc. in my extended family). But I think when there

is a will there is a way.

For me, the challenge enlivens me. I feel more passionate, more

excited to be alive, more awake and alert than ever. I get up every

day, excited about my vegetable garden and fruit trees, my ferments,

the bread I'm baking, what I'll find at the farmer's market and what

I'll cook for dinner.

About ten years ago (or so) there was a show on PBS called " Frontier

House " . It was an educational historical reality show where they

signed a number of families up to live on the American frontier

(recreated, of course). They had to keep animals, grow their own food,

live in a totally self-sufficient way.

It was fascinating. The families all had a very tough time surviving.

The most interesting thing to me is that when the show ended, they

interviewed everyone a few months later. Almost all of the people on

the show said that they wanted to go back to the frontier days. They

felt more connected, more alive, more passionate about life. Their

modern lives felt hollow and cold. They wanted to go back.

I get that. The challenge is fun. Life is fun. And I appreciate all of

you people on this journey with me.

[Guest guest]

Desh,

Thank you very much for what you wrote. Nearly 4 years ago I was

seriously hurt at work and unable to work. Before you think I lived

high on the hog with a nice juicy settlement, work comp gave me

almost nothing and what they did give me, Social Security took back.

I had about $100/month for food, gas and anything else that might

come up. Around last June, after begging God to heal me or take me,

I learned about the right way to eat and started eating naturally as

much as possible, discovered the Farmer's Market etc. But, I went

without clothes, going anywhere at all (I had to make 1 tank of gas

last a month)and gave up virtually everything extra. It was not

easy, but a choice I made to try and get well. HOWEVER,regardless of

what I gave up, there was no way to buy organic. I think doing what

you can, even if it's not organic etc has got to be better than

starvation or eating processed junk food. Before I did this, I was

eating ONE peanut butter or grilled cheese a day and lots of diet

sodas and still gaining weight. I have gotten well enough that I

actually went back to work in December. I can't work as an RN again,

but I have a desk job. It's not easy, I still have a lot of pain,

but don't use a wheelchair, scooter or cane anymore. I was able to

get off over 20 prescription medications. I have lost 50lbs. I'm

just saying, you CAN do it even if you can't afford organic, locally

grown, etc and those with limited incomes need to be encouraged to do

what they can, not discouraged because of cost...ie cut down the

chicken. Replace it with what? Instant mashed potatoes, Kraft

macaroni and cheese? Sorry, but a few regular chickens still has to

do be better for you than that crap. If I had read that advice when

I was first starting I would have become extremely discouraged and

likely given up and gone back to my grilled cheese. I don't think

any of you want folks to do that. So, although the job has given me

a little wiggle room and I can eat more organic now, here's one more

person's voice speaking out for those on limited incomes. Even if

you can't buy organic, buy only unprocessed foods, soak grains etc.

You will heal. Don't give up!

Patty

Poor people exist who cannot afford organic chicken. If you can't

afford organic chicken, chances are you can't afford beef bones. So,

telling a truly poor person to eat 1 chicken every 2 weeks, instead

of 4, really, really deprives that person of the nutrients in bone

broth and the chicken, arsenic or no.

Do these people not deserve a voice on lists like these? You can say

organic chicken is better, of course it is better. But it is not

always the better choice.

Desh

[Guest guest]

Ann Marie,

Have you ever been really truly poor? What are you going to buy when

your kids are hungry? A box of mac and cheese costs about $1.00

while buying ONE organic chicken will run a minimum of $8.00. Get

real. That study you posted is either very old or financed by the

giant food corporations because it's bull.

Whole foods is 40 miles away from me. So not only do I have to

consider the cost of the food, but add 12 to 15bux in gas to go

there. So, 2lbs of backs/necks for stock for about $4 plus the gas

makes that pot of stock $18.00. Does that give you a little

perspective on what being poor means? What about people who are not

physically able to garden, do not have a car, do not live in a big

city? I live in an area with a Farmer's market but NO co-ops. There

are only 2 farmers who grow things remotely organically. Nobody has

free range chickens that aren't supplemented with soy for ANY price.

" A recent study by researchers at the University of California-

reported that U.S. shoppers who consistently choose healthy foods

spend nearly 20 percent more on groceries. The study also said the

higher price of these healthier choices can consume 35 to 40 percent

of a low-income family's grocery budget. That's bad news for public

health. It's also bad news for the organic-food market, since

organics usually carry the highest price tag of all the healthy stuff

out there " . http://www.alternet.org/environment/24821

Here's a few local comparisons: Regular brown rice: $1.00/lb

organic over $3.00/lb. All organic " fresh " produce costs at least 3X

regular. Lettuce 99cents/head. Organic is over $3.00. Milk runs

about $3.00/gallon. Organic about $6.00 and raw milk is about

$7.00/gallon. I'm blessed in that I do have a source for grass-fed

raw milk. Like I said, things like macaroni and cheese, instant

mashed potatoes, cereals are all tremendously cheaper than buying

organic unprocessed foods. Food stamps and WIC don't allow you to

buy organic and many folks on limited incomes are dependent on these

programs. I'm handicapped. There is no way I can dig a garden. I

have about 15 containers outside right now and I'm going to try. The

containers, soil and seeds cost me over $200. If I hadn't gotten the

job mentioned in the previous post, that would have been out of the

question. You're blessed to live somewhere where stuff is readily

available. Not everyone in this country is so lucky. Most poor

people do not have the luxury of having a freezer to store 1/4 to 1/2

a cow, never mind ever coming up with the money in the first place to

buy the cow! You need to think before making such generalizations.

Sorry for the diatribe but you are speaking of something you know

NOTHING about (you admitted you are not poor). All comments like

yours do is discourage people from even trying. Yes, do organic as

much as possible, get local foods if you can, but don't get

discouraged and go back to processed junk. I do agree with the rest

of what you said about nutrition and politics.

Patty

<I think most poor people could afford a few pounds of necks and

backs to make stock once a week. I think adding bone broth to rice

and beans and vegetable soups would be more nutritious than eating

lots of hormone-laden pesticide-laden chicken breasts that have a lot

less nutrients.

I just don't think poverty is an excuse to support factory farms.>

[Guest guest]

>

> Sorry for the diatribe but you are speaking of something you know

> NOTHING about (you admitted you are not poor). All comments like

Patty,

It's extremely presumptuous for both you and Desh to assume that I

have never been poor I don't know anything about it.

What do you know about my life other than what I have told you?

As a matter of fact, at one time in my life, I was very, very poor.

My parents could not afford to send me to college. They were going

through a divorce and I was literally out on the street at 19. I had

to find a way to support myself and had to find a place to live. I

earned minimum wage working full-time at a yogurt shop and cleaned

houses in addition to that.

Even though they were not helping me in any way financially, my

parents were still claiming me on their taxes so I could not qualify

for financial aid to go to college.

As a result, I didn't get to go to college until I was 24 -- when I

was allowed to finally get financial aid. I took out all the loans

myself and put myself through school. (No, I didn't have children at

the time, but if I had, I still would have made the same choice.)

This was a choice I made. It was very scary because I knew I would

have to pay back the loans. But I was only earning $6/hour at the time

as a receptionist. I made the choice to better my circumstances.

I didn't have a car, didn't even have a bike. I walked to class and

earned money where I could. I took a full load of classes every

semester, summer school included, so I could graduate faster. I lived

in a vegetarian co-op where it was very cheap. I remember standing in

line trying to get my financial aid money so I could get food -- when

I really needed to be studying for an exam. It was not easy but I did

it.

When I graduated from college, I went to Silicon Valley and got a job

in the interactive media field (which was just starting at the time --

in the late 90s). I negotiated a starting salary that came out to

$22.50 per hour -- more than 3 x what I was making at my receptionist

job.

The choices I made resulted in a higher income. It was not lucky, nor

was I part of the elite. I worked hard to put myself through school.

It was important to me to make money because I wanted to make a good

life for myself.

I also chose to go back to work after my baby was born and only breast

fed her for 9 months. I may not be able to breast feed for 3-5 years

but at least I can put food on the table.

And yet I got attacked by Desh and a few others -- for making the

" wrong " choice of feeding raw milk formula because I couldn't produce

enough breast milk. They said I should stay home and breast feed and

not work. They said I should give up my " luxuries " .

Are chicken bones a luxury? I don't think so. And if I could not

afford them for my family, I would find a way to do it. Even if it

meant taking out student loans or working two jobs.

I don't believe that there are no options for poor people. I don't

believe that they are oppressed. No victims -- only volunteers, as

they say.

My grandpa was never rich in his lifetime. He started out farming and

when that went away, he opened a gas station. When that went under, he

had to go back out and find a new trade. He got a job at a factory

when he was in his 40s -- so he could support his family. He did what

he had to do. And I, too, am doing what I have to do.

Last time I checked this was a free country. ANYONE can take out a

student loan and go back to school, learn a new skill, get a better

job. Anyone can do what I've done.

I am not poor now -- but it's due to the choices I have made. And I am

STILL paying off my student loans.

Instead of complaining about how impossible it is, I did something

about it. Instead of whining about being victimized by " the

oppressors " , I changed the outcome of my life.

I'm proud of my life and I'm proud of the choices I have made

You don't know me, you don't know the challenges I have faced or am

facing, so please don't presume that you do.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Lis,

please share your list of ways to find cheaper sources of raw meat.

>

> I belong to a Rawfeeding group for my pets, and

> ironically I was the person who came up with a list of

> 29 ways to find cheaper sources of raw meat (to feed

> our pets). I think it is time I sat down with that

> list and adapted it for people. There are ways to get

> excellent quality meat for less money, it just takes a

> bit more work.

[Guest guest]

Buying bulk is " cheaper " in the long run - but certainly not in the short

run, where some of us have mere pennies to be spending on food. If I bought

any amount of meat in bulk, it would have to be all I ate. I don't have a

farmers market anywhere nearby... and even if I did they don't take my food

stamps, which is quite literally the only " money " I have to spend on food

right now. (Since I moved I've been out of work thanks to a transfer

falling through.)

Part of looking for solutions is discussing the problems (which aren't

excuses, IMHO). " Just do it " isn't helpful at all to someone who has tried

several times only to meet roadblocks. I'd like to think that after having

adequate money to support this lifestyle that I'd be able to easily adapt to

eating the same way with less money but if anything, it is harder because I

got used to doing things a certain way (such as buying meat in bulk, driving

all over the map to pick food up, etc) and now I can't afford to do that.

Since I moved I no longer have any gardening space. I've been hanging out

on Freecycle in hopes that some decently sized planters will pop up so that

I can start a garden on the small amount of cement alloted to me. I have

several pots and window boxes but most aren't deep enough to grow good

produce. (I had a fantastic garden the last 3 years and quickly learned

that root depth and quality go hand in hand.) I have already started my

herbs and I'm debating what to put in the two pots that I have which are

large enough for vegetable roots.

I've been investigating small ethnic food markets to find one with good meat

and produce (which hopefully takes food stamps). I've also been calling

butchers to find ones that discard chicken bones in hopes of talking them

into giving them to me for free (I had an arrangement like this before I

moved). I agree with Lis that spending money on bones without meat (or any

instance where you spend money on little to no calories) is difficult.

Hopefully I will find a butcher that can do this for me - and then I'll be

back on the search until I can find a butcher that has pastured chicken

bones.

I do hope on improving the quality of the milk I get - but the fact is I

will not find someone that takes food stamps for raw milk as raw milk is

only legal as pet milk in this state. If I could find a way to afford a

gallon of raw milk, I'd be able to use it to culture the cheap milk I get

through WIC. At least then I'd have the benefit of the microbes... For

now, buttermilk and raw cheese will have to do for microbes. I'm right now

going through my possessions to see what I can sell off to get some cash.

The fact remains that there are certain nutrients that are in each type of

food eaten by the natives that are necessary for health. There is too much

benefit in the saturated fat, phosphorus, cholesterol and GOS to skip out on

even an inferior version of milk. Same goes for inferior eggs with their

saturated fats, cholesterol and choline. Sure, they're low in CLA - and

that really is a pity, but there isn't much I can do about either right now.

Oh, and just getting a loan isn't an option. I have too many credit cards

as is, and while they're not banged up to the limit, they're getting pretty

close and I need to have some spare credit just in case there's an

emergency. Also, there are those who may be slightly less fortunate than me

in that they can't get all their bills paid on time (which starting next

month I might have issues with) and as a result they aren't likely to be

eligible for credit cards or loans. If I do take out a loan at any point,

it will be so I can get some land and get my own cow - which unfortunately

is a little further down the road than I'd like because you need a job to

get a loan.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Lana,

You have many good ideas; where are you located, BTW?

Many local butchers will give you bones if you ask, so that is a

great idea if one is not too far away from where you are or can be

incorporated into another trip.

Also, depending on where you are, some states have farmers markets

and other such things that accept food stamps and other forms of aid

(like here in KY).

Yes, buying bulk is hard when you have very little to start with...

are there ways you can create a little " wiggle " room in your budget?

Also, at least here in KY, our food stamps program does allow you to

get bulk grains and other items, but again, knowing your state is

important.

We (meaning WAP and other people) need to work very hard to help

reform the food stamp programs/etc... that limit people to low

quality food choices. KY has made great steps; people in near our

church can get meat and eggs I think and all sorts of stuff at the

farmers market.

Are there any other wapfers or other like minded people near you?

Again, thanks for letting us into your life a little so that we can

try to help in the small ways we can:)

>

> Buying bulk is " cheaper " in the long run - but certainly not in the

short

> run, where some of us have mere pennies to be spending on food. If

I bought

> any amount of meat in bulk, it would have to be all I ate. I don't

have a

> farmers market anywhere nearby... and even if I did they don't take

my food

> stamps, which is quite literally the only " money " I have to spend

on food

> right now. (Since I moved I've been out of work thanks to a

transfer

> falling through.)

>

> Part of looking for solutions is discussing the problems (which

aren't

> excuses, IMHO). " Just do it " isn't helpful at all to someone who

has tried

> several times only to meet roadblocks. I'd like to think that

after having

> adequate money to support this lifestyle that I'd be able to easily

adapt to

> eating the same way with less money but if anything, it is harder

because I

> got used to doing things a certain way (such as buying meat in

bulk, driving

> all over the map to pick food up, etc) and now I can't afford to do

that.

>

> Since I moved I no longer have any gardening space. I've been

hanging out

> on Freecycle in hopes that some decently sized planters will pop up

so that

> I can start a garden on the small amount of cement alloted to me.

I have

> several pots and window boxes but most aren't deep enough to grow

good

> produce. (I had a fantastic garden the last 3 years and quickly

learned

> that root depth and quality go hand in hand.) I have already

started my

> herbs and I'm debating what to put in the two pots that I have

which are

> large enough for vegetable roots.

>

> I've been investigating small ethnic food markets to find one with

good meat

> and produce (which hopefully takes food stamps). I've also been

calling

> butchers to find ones that discard chicken bones in hopes of

talking them

> into giving them to me for free (I had an arrangement like this

before I

> moved). I agree with Lis that spending money on bones without meat

(or any

> instance where you spend money on little to no calories) is

difficult.

> Hopefully I will find a butcher that can do this for me - and then

I'll be

> back on the search until I can find a butcher that has pastured

chicken

> bones.

>

> I do hope on improving the quality of the milk I get - but the fact

is I

> will not find someone that takes food stamps for raw milk as raw

milk is

> only legal as pet milk in this state. If I could find a way to

afford a

> gallon of raw milk, I'd be able to use it to culture the cheap milk

I get

> through WIC. At least then I'd have the benefit of the

microbes... For

> now, buttermilk and raw cheese will have to do for microbes. I'm

right now

> going through my possessions to see what I can sell off to get some

cash.

>

> The fact remains that there are certain nutrients that are in each

type of

> food eaten by the natives that are necessary for health. There is

too much

> benefit in the saturated fat, phosphorus, cholesterol and GOS to

skip out on

> even an inferior version of milk. Same goes for inferior eggs with

their

> saturated fats, cholesterol and choline. Sure, they're low in CLA -

and

> that really is a pity, but there isn't much I can do about either

right now.

>

> Oh, and just getting a loan isn't an option. I have too many

credit cards

> as is, and while they're not banged up to the limit, they're

getting pretty

> close and I need to have some spare credit just in case there's an

> emergency. Also, there are those who may be slightly less

fortunate than me

> in that they can't get all their bills paid on time (which starting

next

> month I might have issues with) and as a result they aren't likely

to be

> eligible for credit cards or loans. If I do take out a loan at any

point,

> it will be so I can get some land and get my own cow - which

unfortunately

> is a little further down the road than I'd like because you need a

job to

> get a loan.

>

> -Lana

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> You have many good ideas; where are you located, BTW?

>

Thanks! I am in NC.

> Also, depending on where you are, some states have farmers markets

> and other such things that accept food stamps and other forms of aid

> (like here in KY).

That sounds nice. I have heard that WIC will give out vouchers for fresh

produce, when the season is right. I go in for another visit sometime in

April to get more checks and will be inquiring about the details of the

program.

I only found one farmers market when I was looking and it is too far away to

drive regularly. Is there somewhere I can get a list of farmers markets?

I've been keeping my eye out for signs but it seems it is just too early for

them just yet.

Yes, buying bulk is hard when you have very little to start with...

> are there ways you can create a little " wiggle " room in your budget?

>

Unfortunately not. I've had to use every last bit of wiggle room to afford

the rent this month. I'm still hoping my unemployment appeal will go

through (they claim that even though I moved to this town specifically

because that was where I could transfer with my company, somehow it is my

fault I'm out of work).

> We (meaning WAP and other people) need to work very hard to help

> reform the food stamp programs/etc... that limit people to low

> quality food choices.

I agree! I'm really glad that Whole Foods takes the food stamps because

that's the only way I can get raw cheese (costs the same as the pasteurized

version) and the occasional grass-fed meat (they've been out the last few

months, supposedly there's a shortage which makes sense given the hay prices

I've been hearing about on other lists). I really wish there were more

options. I was talking to a lady at the food stamp building and she says

there's a church somewhere not too far away from me that acts like a co-op

for a $50 buy in and takes food stamps so I'm going to look into that.

> Are there any other wapfers or other like minded people near you?

>

Not that I have found. I did look into the local chapters but there is

nothing really close (there are only 5 WAPF chapters in the entirety of NC

according to the website). However, I did see an offer for kombucha

mushrooms on freecycle, so hopefully the woman that put it up will get back

to me and maybe I'll be able to ask her about like minded people.

Thanks for the help!

-Lana

[Guest guest]

>

> I only found one farmers market when I was looking and it is too far away

to drive regularly. Is there somewhere I can get a list of farmers markets?

I've been keeping my eye out for signs but it seems it is just too early for

them just yet.

..

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=

98669/stime=1206220424/nc1=5191950/nc2=5191951/nc3=4025373>

www.localharvest.org is a great place to look for co-ops and farmer's

markets

[Guest guest]

Lana,

Use this WIC experience to try and promote the proper diet too. The

worker i met with here when i applied for it said that it is not

often they get clients who teach them a thing or two about diet

She wrote down the WAPF info and NT and said she planned to buy the

book. The one here in my town had just recently taken surveys to

revamp the program. So make suggestions and print off the info from

WAP site on the WIC guidelines they would like to see implemented.

Also if you get more milk than you like they sometimes will change

the coupons to give you more cheese. I know not raw or organic but

here we can get the other brands that claim hormone free. I did not

need the milk as we were buying raw anyways - also we can get the

milk labeled no hormones etc. I used it for kefiring once and

awhile. I actually just had them cancel WIC because we get an

abundace on FS, (had WIC before qualifying for FS). If it weren't

for the FS we would be choosing mortgage or food. So i know how you

all feel who say the money is not there.

At some point the income will icnrease again and we will be over the

limit by a few bucks like yrs ago and then we will really have to be

cutting back cause we won't be able to afford it. I find it ironic

how they qualify people for them too. We can make enough to; pay

bills and have $250. left for groceries and make too much to qualify

for any amount of FS.

Or make $250. (not have $ for groceries - bills only). But then we

qualify for full FS @ $550. a month. When he makes the extra $250.

we are over money wise, and do not qualify for them at all. Makes no

sense at all. In their eyes $250. = $550.

Do you still have medical insurance through jobs or are you getting

state help with tat also? If so i wanted to tell you that in my

state if a PG female applies in her last trimester her medcial card

will stay open and she can use home birth midwives etc. that wil be

covered by the state insurance. Maybe in your area too.

Try posting on Craigslist for other like minded people - try under

the kids and baby stuff. Post that you want to meet other NT, NN,

WAPF people and are interested in getting in contact with local food

co-ops that buy food/beef in bulk or interested i nstarting a beef

share if anyone else is interested. You could pool the money etc.

Here it avgs less than $2.40 lb (can be way more but i shop

around!). If you can pool money and each pitch in you can do this

after you situation straightens out. or find someone like myself who

will be using the tax kicker to buy a whole beef and let friends buy

it as they need. We charge a tiny bit more to cover electric costs

for storing it. We bought a cheep large freezer off of craigslist

before money got tight in anticipation to do this.

Also when the farmers stands do start opening up ask them if they

know of any local food co-ops. We have a small one ran out of an old

run down building. I had no idea about it. It has been running for

20 yrs or so and only learned about it from a local WAP member. We

get all our stuff at wholesale prices because i BF. Usually people

have to volunteer an hr a week to get the whole sale price. But PG

and BF moms get it for free. We can use our food stamps there and

use them at the farmers market. Also some of the local farms that

run stands on their property are equipped to take FS too. If they

take WIC checks chances are they can take FS.

Our phone book has farms in the yellow pages. I started calling all

of them until i found some that took FS. A local organic store is

where i found our local directory with all the farms listed. It was

not a big chain like Whole paycheck it was a small one ran by 'hippy'

type of people. I would think WIC would know if there was one or

where to go to get them. Our farmers all meet downton on Saturday -

Saturday/Farmers Market. Vendors set up booths etc. They have the

home office who coordinates all of this. If you can find yours

(assuming they meet like ours does) they would know how to find the

local magazine/guide. Local Harvest is great. I also found some

local Farmers who have CSA's that would take payments from me with

the FS card at the Saturday market. I called around until i could

find one who would take 4 weeks of payments 1 time a month with FS.

Oh one more thing i called our local organic produce wholesaler and

asked about starting a co-op. If you have one near you that maybe an

option if you can find enough people. We just needed a minimum of

$100. This was before i found out there was one already and most of

the people i ran into already used the one i am now a part of. I had

spoke with others who did this yrs ago when kids were little. One

lady organized it all for her friends and family. Was the drop site,

gathered the money and orders, placed all the orders etc. and wound

up getting her box of food free each week for the work she put into

it. Everyone else paid the cost of everything that her $ was not

needed to get the order paid for each week. She said they all saved

a lot compared to buying from stores and farmers markets.

>

> > You have many good ideas; where are you located, BTW?

> >

>

> Thanks! I am in NC.

>

>

> > Also, depending on where you are, some states have farmers markets

> > and other such things that accept food stamps and other forms of

aid

> > (like here in KY).

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, I can't believe it, there is a farm very close by... I will be giving

them a call on Monday.

C.

RE: Re: Chicken Choices

>

> I only found one farmers market when I was looking and it is too far away

to drive regularly. Is there somewhere I can get a list of farmers markets?

I've been keeping my eye out for signs but it seems it is just too early for

them just yet.

.

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=

98669/stime=1206220424/nc1=5191950/nc2=5191951/nc3=4025373>

www.localharvest.org is a great place to look for co-ops and farmer's

markets

[Guest guest]

Ann Marie-

> You don't know me, you don't know the challenges I have faced or am

> facing, so please don't presume that you do.

Perhaps if you don't want to face the presumptions of others, you

shouldn't make presumptions about them.

The fact that you overcame poverty is laudable. The fact that you

presume that because you did it anyone can -- that the obstacles other

people face are all similar to or smaller than the ones you faced --

and that they don't only because of foolishness and hedonism is not.

-

[Guest guest]

Wow -- that's really interesting that you read all of that into my

posts.

I never said that people don't overcome poverty due to foolishness or

hedonism, nor did I even imply it.

I do believe in the power of the human spirit and human ingenuity to

overcome obstacles. I also think joining together in community makes

us stronger.

I guess I am an optimist. Maybe you are not. To each his own. :-)

Ann Marie

On Mar 23, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Idol wrote:

>

>

> The fact that you overcame poverty is laudable. The fact that you

> presume that because you did it anyone can -- that the obstacles other

> people face are all similar to or smaller than the ones you faced --

> and that they don't only because of foolishness and hedonism is not.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

By the way, here's one of my all-time favorite quotes:

" Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours. " --

Bach

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

,

> The fact that you overcame poverty is laudable. The fact that you

> presume that because you did it anyone can -- that the obstacles other

> people face are all similar to or smaller than the ones you faced --

> and that they don't only because of foolishness and hedonism is not.

Not only that but class mobility goes both ways. Any of us who are

not poor could become so through sheer accident quite easily.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Not only that but class mobility goes both ways. Any of us who are

> not poor could become so through sheer accident quite easily.

Absolutely. I'm also a 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' success story,

put myself through college after being raised in poverty, first one in my

family on either side to go to college. My husband and I were both

professionals and we did very well for ourselves for a decade.

Then my father was completely disabled in a car accident. I'm the only

child so I suddenly had two disabled parents to care for, my mother having

been disabled when I was a teen. They lost everything and had to move in

with us and us largely support them. Then I had a major health crisis of my

own with celiac and adrenal exhaustion. Our small biofuel business went

under because the county refused to let us produce and sell our fuel. Then

my husband lost his day job and we had to move long-distance in order for my

husband to find work. It has slapped us right back down despite our careful

planning and investing. And this time, instead of having my health and

abilities to get me back up, I can't work because I have two parents and two

small children to care for. I now work from home with my own small business

because to pay for care for both parents and both children would more than

take my professional-level salary, due to the specialized care my dad needs.

That assumes, of course, that I could find a job in this economy.

So despite the circumstances, by working from home I'm doing the best that I

can to contribute to my family. We don't have extras, and things like my

husband's cell phone are provided through his job. Thankfully, his company

also covers health insurance for the family in case we have something like a

car accident. The internet is covered by my small business. I am as

financially careful as I can be. I'm a completely from-scratch cook, I make

my own cleaners, we don't use anything disposable. I literally buy little

that is commercially made that isn't a single ingredient. We keep the house

at 60 degrees during the day and 50 at night and heat with wood instead as

much as we can. My kids wear hand-me-downs and only get new underwear

unless they get clothing as a gift, and I literally only own two everyday

outfits and one church dress that fits me after loosing 60 lbs from the

celiac disease. I don't even own an appropriate coat for the weather where

we live. Let's not even talk about not being able to do Christmas or

birthdays for my children, instead my grandparents make sure they get

something. I could go on and on. Despite all those measures, the money

just isn't there for some things and foods that are 'better' choices.

Clothing, heat and making sure my children have enough food in their bellies

to grow and gain weight comes over organic, free range or local. Since

we're celiac, we're very limited on what we can buy to begin with. The only

way we get organic or anything else right now is that we have a local

salvage that sells damaged cans and short-dated goods 50-75% off from places

like Earth Fare and Whole Foods, so their prices are actually equal to the

local Wal-mart at times. It's been a God-send, because I'm able to get

things that I otherwise wouldn't be able to afford due to the celiac

restrictions.

Any one of us, like my dad, can have a car accident rendering them an

invalid. Any one of us can loose our jobs and not be able to find work. Or

a spouse or child could die or become disabled, and instead of working you

could have to care for them. I watched my own father work his whole life to

go from poverty to middle-class, only to see a car accident destroy

everything he had worked so hard for and they lost everything. I got my

work ethic from my dad, an amazingly hard working man who didn't own his own

pair of shoes until he was 11, having grown up in Maine in a house with a

dirt floor and no heat, one of 13 children. He tells stories of having to

steal cans of green beans from the store as a child, in order for them to

have literally anything to eat after their dad was deported back to France.

So being able to pull yourself up by the bootstraps doesn't ensure success,

or even that you'll have enough money to feed your family.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com

[Guest guest]

Ann Marie-

> So I would say, based on this data, that based on those numbers,

> eating less organic chickens and eggs would be better for you than

> eating larger quantities of the battery eggs and chickens.

From what I've seen, this discussion has something of a through-the-

looking-glass quality to it. All else being equal, if someone is

going to eat less of one thing, he or she will have to make it up by

eating more of something else. For someone who's financially

constrained enough that the choice is between eating one pastured

chicken or, say, three or four factory farm chickens, yes, certainly

the pastured chicken will have more nutrients and fewer toxins than

its factory farm counterpart, but one pastured chicken just isn't

going to yield as many meals as three or four battery chickens. To

put it more plainly, replacing $12 of battery chicken with $12 of

pastured chicken is going to yield a lot less food... and no leftover

dollars to spend to make up the resulting calorie deficit. Any

analyses of the tradeoffs inherent in making such choices and any

buying recommendations to people with financial constraints MUST

account for this problem, or they're nothing more than armchair

philosophizing.

-

[Guest guest]

To some extent I think this assertion is true, but isn't this why we

have insurances of various forms and savings? Again, not saying that

all can afford them, etc... but we make less than 23k per year yet we

make sure we have appropriate insurances so that when something does

strike, we are as prepared as we can be. We also have an emergency

fund. It isn't easy to have both of these (and even less easy not to

dip into our savings), but this helps ensure that we will not end up

suddenly tossed economically into poverty, to some degree.

Thus, wouldn't you say that since we know trouble is coming, we should

as much as possible prepare for the coming trouble? " Accidents " are

rather frequent, so should we not prepare for them since we know they

are somewhat inevitable?

>

> ,

>

> > The fact that you overcame poverty is laudable. The fact that you

> > presume that because you did it anyone can -- that the obstacles

other

> > people face are all similar to or smaller than the ones you faced --

> > and that they don't only because of foolishness and hedonism is not.

>

> Not only that but class mobility goes both ways. Any of us who are

> not poor could become so through sheer accident quite easily.

>

> Chris

>