Re: Chicken Choices, resolving etlitism

[Guest guest]

, et al,

For the uninitiated, The Pedagogy of the Oppressed is not my strong

phraseology, it is a famous text by o Freire, a Brazilian educational

theorist and revolutionary ideologue. While I in no way agree with all

elements of his theory- or its occaisionally sexist language, it does

raise some ideas salient to your comments. In Freire's eyes, 's

characterization of all the poor as materialistic and hedonistic is a

classic example of dehumanization of the poor; Ann Marie's tale is a

classic example of the oppressed unknowingly or unintentionally becoming

an oppressor. Here is a link to the google book:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en & id=xfFXFD414ioC & dq=pedagogy+of+the+op

pressed & printsec=frontcover & source=web & ots=sWLe6doXUe & sig=TyYbowV-AuL_pHm

q3hgFTfjIXoA#PPA22,M1 but also here in a more easily read format

http://www.marxists.org/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/ch01.htm If

you really believe that the poor are to be enitrely blamed for their

poverty and ignorance in choosing gadgets over good food, or that it

really is a land of opportunity for all, a quick skim might elucidate why

I disagree with you.

For myself, I did put myself through college with a tale strikingly

similar to Ann Marie's, parental divorce financial aid wrangling and all,

with the difference being that when I graduated, after 10 years of

working 2 jobs to get through, plenty of going hungry and without medical

care and similar dramas- the college refused to release my transcript

until all debt to them was paid off- a regulation that I had not been

told when signing loans. So there I was, up by my bootstraps, polished

to a cum laude shine- slapped down again in a manner I was not previously

informed of. It is suprisingly difficult to land that high-paying job

that comes with every English Literature and Women's Studies degree, when

I couldn't prove that I had the degree (they wouldn't release the

diploma). I always applied for any job I didn't think would require a

transcript or other proof, and never got one until I was already

pregnant, many years post college, and read an article about racism in

hiring (my full name sounds very Afro-American- I am not). I got the

next job I applied for, after changing the first name on my resume to

initials- how sad and strange such hiring bias seems in our day and age.

Unfortunately, the company decided to pull out of the market here when I

was 6 months pregnant- and not very employable.

It was a struggle getting that degree, and it is a struggle still trying

to pay it off. But with respect to all who starve and slave and

overdrive when their organs are young to get through college, it is a

more profound struggle trying to feed your children on a limited income.

Our take home pay is 1800 a month- we are some that make a few hundred

too much a year to qualify for WIC. Last year we spent around 42% of our

income on food; this year, we had a car wreck, and paying for it takes

the percentage down to around 37. I forgot to mention that my daughter

has lead poisoning, so with the budget of 160 or 180 a week I have for

the household, I try to find room for a few supplements to help get the

lead out. From the time that my husband wrecked the car, until we

started to pay for it, I amassed as much traditional food security as I

could, stuffing our extra Freecycle fridge full. It then got robbed- all

few hundred dollars in foodstuffs I had procured to try to stay away from

that imperfect chicken during this leaner time, gone. I would wonder

their faces, opening packages of pork liver and the like:)

You ask why we spend time lambasting each other. Ann Marie makes a lot

of comments about women having subpar breastmilk, without posting

significant science to back it up. I'm sorry, but Sally's good formula

experience is not science, and the articles on the website are completely

biased- as is the idea that there is as much nutrition in 1 good chicken

as 4 depressingly toxic ones. I admit that I am ruthless in my defense

of my choices here, but I do try to post science to back them up.

Desh, apologetically exhausted and rambling

[Guest guest]

Desh,

The problem with the below is that (at least, I) never said that the

poor are solely responsible for their poverty. Our pastor did a

wonderful set of sermons on the different causes of poverty given in

the OT (clamity and two others that I don't remember so early in the

morning).

I do think it is very apperant (sub loan crisis, prime example

including even the secular analysis of it) that many, but not all,

people create their own economic problems, especially in America. I

know this from first hand work among the poor and from my years as a

finance major and doing financial counseling with friends and

others. We as a people want to much, spend too much, consume too

much, and on a whole when we do have extra money we do not bother to

save any. This is not a 100% truism, and I made it clear in my

original post as such. But there are certainly a large number of

people in poverty who, when you look beyond there " and this just

happened to me " scenario, had misused large amounts of money and

opportunity. They could have built a better cushion (again, not all,

but many), but cell phones, ciggaretes, etc... were more important.

And again, to make it perfectly clear, this is not everyone, but a

large number of people fall under this unbrella.

To point out the cultural problems that lead to poverty is not

elitism, it is love.

>

> , et al,

>

> For the uninitiated, The Pedagogy of the Oppressed is not my strong

> phraseology, it is a famous text by o Freire, a Brazilian

educational

> theorist and revolutionary ideologue. While I in no way agree with

all

> elements of his theory- or its occaisionally sexist language, it

does

> raise some ideas salient to your comments. In Freire's eyes, 's

> characterization of all the poor as materialistic and hedonistic is

a

> classic example of dehumanization of the poor; Ann Marie's tale is a

> classic example of the oppressed unknowingly or unintentionally

becoming

> an oppressor. Here is a link to the google book:

> http://books.google.com/books?

hl=en & id=xfFXFD414ioC & dq=pedagogy+of+the+op

> pressed & printsec=frontcover & source=web & ots=sWLe6doXUe & sig=TyYbowV-

AuL_pHm

> q3hgFTfjIXoA#PPA22,M1 but also here in a more easily read format

>

http://www.marxists.org/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/ch01.htm

If

> you really believe that the poor are to be enitrely blamed for their

> poverty and ignorance in choosing gadgets over good food, or that it

> really is a land of opportunity for all, a quick skim might

elucidate why

> I disagree with you.

>

> For myself, I did put myself through college with a tale strikingly

> similar to Ann Marie's, parental divorce financial aid wrangling

and all,

> with the difference being that when I graduated, after 10 years of

> working 2 jobs to get through, plenty of going hungry and without

medical

> care and similar dramas- the college refused to release my

transcript

> until all debt to them was paid off- a regulation that I had not

been

> told when signing loans. So there I was, up by my bootstraps,

polished

> to a cum laude shine- slapped down again in a manner I was not

previously

> informed of. It is suprisingly difficult to land that high-paying

job

> that comes with every English Literature and Women's Studies

degree, when

> I couldn't prove that I had the degree (they wouldn't release the

> diploma). I always applied for any job I didn't think would

require a

> transcript or other proof, and never got one until I was already

> pregnant, many years post college, and read an article about racism

in

> hiring (my full name sounds very Afro-American- I am not). I got

the

> next job I applied for, after changing the first name on my resume

to

> initials- how sad and strange such hiring bias seems in our day and

age.

> Unfortunately, the company decided to pull out of the market here

when I

> was 6 months pregnant- and not very employable.

>

> It was a struggle getting that degree, and it is a struggle still

trying

> to pay it off. But with respect to all who starve and slave and

> overdrive when their organs are young to get through college, it is

a

> more profound struggle trying to feed your children on a limited

income.

> Our take home pay is 1800 a month- we are some that make a few

hundred

> too much a year to qualify for WIC. Last year we spent around 42%

of our

> income on food; this year, we had a car wreck, and paying for it

takes

> the percentage down to around 37. I forgot to mention that my

daughter

> has lead poisoning, so with the budget of 160 or 180 a week I have

for

> the household, I try to find room for a few supplements to help get

the

> lead out. From the time that my husband wrecked the car, until we

> started to pay for it, I amassed as much traditional food security

as I

> could, stuffing our extra Freecycle fridge full. It then got

robbed- all

> few hundred dollars in foodstuffs I had procured to try to stay

away from

> that imperfect chicken during this leaner time, gone. I would

wonder

> their faces, opening packages of pork liver and the like:)

>

> You ask why we spend time lambasting each other. Ann Marie makes a

lot

> of comments about women having subpar breastmilk, without posting

> significant science to back it up. I'm sorry, but Sally's good

formula

> experience is not science, and the articles on the website are

completely

> biased- as is the idea that there is as much nutrition in 1 good

chicken

> as 4 depressingly toxic ones. I admit that I am ruthless in my

defense

> of my choices here, but I do try to post science to back them up.

>

>

> Desh, apologetically exhausted and rambling

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Desh,

I did not take that away from what wrote either. I come from a

family who raised all their kids on welfare. Griped and moaned about

being broke, poor and having to live off the gvmnt while the rich get

richer. They were ALL exactly how has put it in his reply. My

mom would use the last of money to buy her beer, pot, or cigarettes

even though we were out of milk and eggs and had nothing else to

eat. When i was a young teen i would only eat lunch at school

because i wanted my younger siblings to feel full before bed and in

the morn before school. I would give them my portions of tomato soup

and a grilled cheese sandwich.

My husband and i have always qualified for WIC but not always

foodstamps. We are the struggling working poor too. My husband left

a job (military) where the last 5 yrs he was making about $75,. a

yr. Too much separation and deployments so we left it because our

family had spent only 12 months together in 5 yrs of time. He did

not know us anymore, nor we him. So now we are back to being the

working poor, 4 kids, menial pay, and qualifying for foodstamps and

WIC again.

During his military time however we did not spend away. I scrimped

and saved and still shopped on sale etc... like when we were really

poor. I watched people of all financial brackets complain about not

having any money and being in debt. All of them, even the lower

enlisted who made little, blew it all the time. Kids wnet with out

but parents had top of the line gadgets and all the smoke and beer

they wanted. The higher up officers were just as in debt or broke

and their wives would say it does not matter that he gets paid more,

you make more and typically the debt ratio comes up with it.

In my experience it is as says because majority of people CHOOSE

to live outside their means. While we were making all that money i

put all extra money into; a savings account (to help us get out and

live off during out of job times), paid extra principal on our home

(paid off 7 yrs worth in 2), and we paid off debt we had incurred

because of being college students with 3 kids. Having to charge

stuff like emergency - car repairs etc. plus paid off the rest of the

money owed on our van as we had to get something bigger (a small car

was not cutting it anymore and it was about dead anyways). The first

yr went to saving money for buying a house, the second to paying off

all debt so we had nothing but the house to pay for. 3-5th yrs were

paying extra on that house and preparing to leave the army. We still

only have our home debt and never incurred more. But i saw it all

the time. The income went up with promotions in rank and they spent

it and upgraded cars - his, hers. Bought more stuff for their

houses, big screens, cooler game systems and phones, ate out more,

went on vacations to disney. I still shopped clearance, bought sale

items in bulk so i could save more in the long run etc. They were

all frivilous in gas in utilities etc. I still lived poor. Our

family (and one other family) when we left the military had enough

for starting over until a job was found, paid off our on debt,

advance on the house debt, and had money to donate thousands to

another christian family who was adopting 5 kids from Ethiopia (that

was $50,.) People who made much more than us could not afford to

donate anything to help them because of their debt and daily expenses.

I was horrified that these families were broke in the the land of

plenty, while kids in orphanages are starving because they truly lack.

Our prioriteis do tend to make us broke, by choice. Being born into

a truly impoverished society where you feel your only choice is watch

your kids starve to death or give them to an orphanage is not the

same as most poor americans. Most are poor by choice.

The military had a financial advisor meet with our families to see if

we were " prepared " for life on our own with out big brothers pay. He

was floored that we had it so together he said he has never seen a

family this ahead of the game in all his yrs working with the

military. Much less 2 in the same time frame (we were all friends -

very like minded NT/NN family). He said that everyone he meets with

is so in debt it is sickening and it gets worse the hgigher the rank

cause no body saves anymore and all have nice expensive things and

cars. Always new cars every couple of yrs. His experience as a

financial advisor and planner was much like what Jhon posted. People

want more nad spend more never satisfied with what they have or

storing away. We hear it all the time on the news and 20/20 type of

shows. This next generation is even worse than ours.

I come home and my welfare family, the cousins and siblings i grew up

with, are all doing as their parents did. Broke, coming to us for

money - cause we own our house so that menas we have money. Here my

husband was no longer employed, they are. But because they will not

quit buying stuff, (expensive stupid non neccessity stuff, they need

help with rent for a 2 bdrm crappy aptmnt with mold problems), kids

out of control, but hey they have the latest and greatest game

station whichever it is now, a big screen, a super cool cell phone

that does it all (ours is the cheapest does nothing but calls people)

etc. Complaining that the poor are poor and it is not fair. They

all shop, spend, and then pay bills with what is left and are always

behind on real bills like rent and utilities. I have rarely met

anyone who stores for later whether it is food or money. I grew up

dirt poor and it has made me a good steward in most things in my life

and when i finally had a few yrs of nice windfall i scurried around

like a busy beaver paying off everything i could and saving for a

money famine, like what we are experiencing now. The foodstamps we

are getting again feed us but i still buy wisely. While my poor as

or poorer extended family buys all kinds of stuff with out giving a

second thought. She buys more expensive convenience food and

complains about not having money for healtheir food and how it is

crap. She thinks we should not be able to if she can't. I point out

to her it only cost us a few bucks more each week when we changed our

diets. That is it doable and instead of complaning do something

about it. She refuses and continues to strum on her violin

I also do buy a bit into Orwellian thought along the lines that yes

there is an Elite and yes they hope to keep us occupied with

technology etc. so we can be easier manipulated or whatever. But not

everyone has to succumb to it. Many of the people i know - they know

that this is not good for them but say oh well and do it anyways

because ti is what they know and doing better takes too much time and

work. So i think was right about a majority and that majority

is not people on this list! I in no way took it like he was

meaning people on this list (or similar native ones) to be causing

their own bad circusmtances by living outside their means. Some

maybe. But majority on these lists who care about their health and

the health of the masses are not who he was talking about. He was

talking about the people i grew up with. I full heartedly beleive

that you, myself, and others who have recently posted are being very

wise stewards and i think this why sharing ideas on how to get ahead

better would be more beneficial than lambbasting Because some of

you are so practical and solutional it is great to glean from how

your families make it work.

I think we should have thread going about how to stretch that budget

because not all of us think alike and may not know how to in all

areas.

Sorry for the ramble!

BTW that so sucks about school! It makes me irate that they can get

away with stuff like that and in these kinds of isntances this is

were my mind thinks 'yes they want to oppress us' comes in. But it

does not mean that we should let them. We can do something with in

our own life - as you are doing. As many of us are, instead of

whining about it and yet doing nothing at all - like my family. They

perpetuate it all. As Ann Marie said we buy their junk - well the

same people whining about it, do NOTHING to change it at all. Not

the people on the list struggling, the 'others' i described above is

what i am referring to. The ones i think was talking about

also. Where i think Anne Marie was talking about us all inclusively,

not seeing a difference or extending grace too us and lumping

everyone in the same financial situations, same needs, same struggles

etc.

>

> , et al,

>

> For the uninitiated, The Pedagogy of the Oppressed is not my strong

> phraseology, it is a famous text by o Freire, a Brazilian

educational

> theorist and revolutionary ideologue. While I in no way agree with

all

> elements of his theory- or its occaisionally sexist language, it

does

> raise some ideas salient to your comments. In Freire's eyes, 's

> characterization of all the poor as materialistic and hedonistic is

a

> classic example of dehumanization of the poor; Ann Marie's tale is a

> classic example of the oppressed unknowingly or unintentionally

becoming

> an oppressor. Here is a link to the google book:

> http://books.google.com/books?

hl=en & id=xfFXFD414ioC & dq=pedagogy+of+the+op

> pressed & printsec=frontcover & source=web & ots=sWLe6doXUe & sig=TyYbowV-

AuL_pHm

> q3hgFTfjIXoA#PPA22,M1 but also here in a more easily read format

>

http://www.marxists.org/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/ch01.htm

If

> you really believe that the poor are to be enitrely blamed for their

> poverty and ignorance in choosing gadgets over good food, or that it

> really is a land of opportunity for all, a quick skim might

elucidate why

> I disagree with you.

>

> For myself, I did put myself through college with a tale strikingly

> similar to Ann Marie's, parental divorce financial aid wrangling

[Guest guest]

Very good post . I was on board with everything you said until your

interpretation of Ann Marie's post. I think you and she are saying the same

thing, she just didn't take as much effort and time to articulate it as you did!

Kathy

Where i think Anne Marie was talking about us all inclusively,

> not seeing a difference or extending grace too us and lumping

> everyone in the same financial situations, same needs, same struggles

> etc.