Re: Hepatitis B was: Vaccines, need some advice

[Guest guest]

I am surprised that your midwife would give that as a reason. I have never

heard of Hep B coming from

casual contact. It is a blood to blood/body fluid transmission. In a

hospital, there should not

be any blood or body fluid being transferred to your baby......except yours

from the placenta or vagina. There are MANY nasty infections that can come

from a hospital (MRSA..being just one) which is one reason I will never give

birth in a hospital again (if possible).

It is possible for transmission to occur during birth if the mother is

infected. But if you are not, than

the vaccine is completely unnecessary unless your child will be sharing

dirty needles. Of course this is

all under the impression that you think vaccines actually effective and WORK

as we are told they do. Which is a whole different subject.

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=

99329/stime=1207434129/nc1=5191950/nc2=5191951/nc3=5191955>

[Guest guest]

She was talking about blood or other fluids being spilled onto surfaces

which had been wiped clean but not properly sanitized (I did tell her I

*expect* a hospital to keep good tabs on this stuff, but I don't trust them

and she apparently doesn't either.)

It was hard enough for me to find a midwife (I'm in a state that requires

midwives to be Certified Nurse-Midwives) that did any form of deliveries (my

most local hospital doesn't allow CNMs to deliver and I haven't found a

single one that delivers at home). I really would prefer a home birth, but

as I can't afford to pay for it myself I'm going to have to make do with a

hospital birth in a small hospital.

I am negative for Hepatitis B as of December testing and I was vaccinated

for it many years ago (it was required for me to be a volunteer EMT - yuck),

so I have no worries about baby being exposed to it via me. I was just

curious how long it could survive outside of the body in the rare event that

my baby would have broken flesh coming into contact with a contaminated

surface.

Unless Hepatitis B sticks around for some ridiculously long time, I'm

avoiding the shot - I just wanted to see an actual number before finalizing

the decision.

-Lana

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 7:13 PM, <organicstump@...> wrote:

> I am surprised that your midwife would give that as a reason. I have

> never

> heard of Hep B coming from casual contact. It is a blood to blood/body

> fluid transmission. In a hospital, there should not be any blood or body

> fluid being transferred to your baby......except yours from the placenta or

> vagina. There are MANY nasty infections that can come from a hospital

> (MRSA..being just one) which is one reason I will never give

> birth in a hospital again (if possible).

>

> It is possible for transmission to occur during birth if the mother is

> infected. But if you are not, than the vaccine is completely unnecessary

> unless your child will be sharing

> dirty needles. Of course this is all under the impression that you think

> vaccines actually effective and WORK as we are told they do. Which is a

> whole different subject.

>

>

> <

> http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=

>

99329/stime=1207434129/nc1=5191950/nc2=5191951/nc3=5191955<http://geo./\

serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=99329/stime=1207434129/nc1\

=5191950/nc2=5191951/nc3=5191955>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Lana did you try researching it at Dr. Tenpenny's site? I sitll would

not do it even if there is a chance after watching Tenpennys seminars

on it.

>

> She was talking about blood or other fluids being spilled onto

surfaces

> which had been wiped clean but not properly sanitized (I did tell her

I

> *expect* a hospital to keep good tabs on this stuff, but I don't

trust them

> and she apparently doesn't either.)

[Guest guest]

Not exactly the answer you want....but here is what the CDC says.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/Hepatitis/common_faqs.htm

"

How long can HAV, HBV and HCV survive outside the body?

HAV

HAV can live outside the body for months, depending on the environmental

conditions.

HBV

HBV can survive outside the body at least 7 days and still be capable of

transmitting infection.

HCV

Recent studies have shown that HCV can survive outside the body and still

transmit infection for 16 hours, but not longer than 4 days. "

Even with this knowledge I would still no give it a newborn. To me the

risk/benefit is too great. But I don't believe in any vaccines.

I am going to do some more research because the CDC is not what I consider

an unbiased source.

>

> She was talking about blood or other fluids being spilled onto

surfaces

> which had been wiped clean but not properly sanitized (I did tell her

I

> *expect* a hospital to keep good tabs on this stuff, but I don't

trust them

> and she apparently doesn't either.)

..

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=

99336/stime=1207455213/nc1=5191946/nc2=5191951/nc3=5170410>

[Guest guest]

Even if you generally agree they work, a newborn infant doesn't have a fully

formed immune system to develop the correct response to a vaccine anyway.

Just pointlessly putting toxins and foreign proteins into their body. If

the theory of vaccination is correct then the best defense is your breast

milk since you have been vaccinated.

http://nvic.org/Diseases/Hepatitis_B.htm

The first article " Untold Story " is very long but gives you a lot of info

about safety concerns, how necessary it really is etc.

I don't know why the midwife is pushing this except she believes the

propaganda.

Please note though that in Texas, and likely other states, they can reduce

your benefits for WIC etc if you don't vaccinate for everything under the

son. I was on Medicaid for my pregnancy/labor and my son is still but we

don't go to the pediatrician since he's healthy and growing well. If I have

a problem I'll have to shell out the cash to see the naturopathic doctor. I

refuse to go somewhere I will get harassed about vaccinations.

I have an autoimmune thyroid disorder and I tell them very plainly that any

vaccine could cause a major reaction and death for me and that it is

hereditary and I will not risk my son's life before he is old enough to be

properly tested. I signed a waiver that I didn't want the Hep B and hubby

was ordered to leave me if he had to but not to let the baby out of his

sight.

Dawn

[Guest guest]

Oh, and I didn't mean this to sound so rude! =) I'm exhausted up late doing

paperwork and baby woke us up after too little sleep the night before. =)

Sorry. Anyway I hope this is helpful and of course you have to do what

feels right to you.

Take care,

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Pendraig Siberians

Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:52 AM

Subject: RE: Hepatitis B was: Vaccines, need some advice

Even if you generally agree they work, a newborn infant doesn't have a fully

formed immune system to develop the correct response to a vaccine anyway.

Just pointlessly putting toxins and foreign proteins into their body. If

the theory of vaccination is correct then the best defense is your breast

milk since you have been vaccinated.

http://nvic.org/Diseases/Hepatitis_B.htm

The first article " Untold Story " is very long but gives you a lot of info

about safety concerns, how necessary it really is etc.

I don't know why the midwife is pushing this except she believes the

propaganda.

Please note though that in Texas, and likely other states, they can reduce

your benefits for WIC etc if you don't vaccinate for everything under the

son. I was on Medicaid for my pregnancy/labor and my son is still but we

don't go to the pediatrician since he's healthy and growing well. If I have

a problem I'll have to shell out the cash to see the naturopathic doctor. I

refuse to go somewhere I will get harassed about vaccinations.

I have an autoimmune thyroid disorder and I tell them very plainly that any

vaccine could cause a major reaction and death for me and that it is

hereditary and I will not risk my son's life before he is old enough to be

properly tested. I signed a waiver that I didn't want the Hep B and hubby

was ordered to leave me if he had to but not to let the baby out of his

sight.

Dawn

[Guest guest]

>>>> and hubby

was ordered to leave me if he had to but not to let the baby out of his

sight.

Dawn

..

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=

99340/stime=1207461145/nc1=5191951/nc2=5191949/nc3=4025291>

__,_._ This is exactly how we handle hospital visits. My son was a

homebirth but then transferred in to the NICU

for wet lungs. We never left his side....over 5 days. It was hard because

I was obviously hours post partum but we

just didn't trust that they had our/his best interest at heart (based on OUR

beliefs and decisions).

,___

[Guest guest]

I just want to make it clear that my midwife isn't " pushing " anything - she

mentioned it just once. I'm a little appalled to find out that the hospital

environment isn't as clean as I'd expect as well as the fact the virus can

live 7 days out of the body (Thanks ) and I'm glad she mentioned it to

me because I would have been irritated to find that out after the fact.

The hospital I'm going to is very good at allowing immediate BFing and I do

have immunity to HBV - but it seems their policy is to take the baby to the

nursery immediately after the first BFing session for screening (then the

baby returns for rooming in and only goes back to the nursery when the

pediatrician visits). I'm gonna see if they'd do the newborn screening in

my room, and since I'm not going to be using the pediatrician on charge I'm

gonna ask if they'd skip the nursery for that too.

My midwife thankfully suggested a pediatrician who is very religious (the

only exemption one can get in this state is a religious one). I will be

contacting him this week to discuss the vaccination exemption. I'm hoping

that I don't have to be a formal member of a church to get the exemption,

but we'll see what he says. She did have a second recommendation if he

wasn't up for it.

Thanks!

-Lana

> I don't know why the midwife is pushing this except she believes the

> propaganda.

[Guest guest]

There are different forms of hepatitis, and the vaccine is only

against the B form, which is only transmittable via body fluids, and

I believe they have to be relatively " fresh " - it's a little tougher

than the HIV virus but mostly transmitted the same way - needle

sharing, unprotected sex, hospital accidents, tainted blood. You

can't get it from licking a dirty counter or even eating off the

floor. Unless the hospital has really awful sanitation, the infant

shouldn't have any risk of getting it while in there.

Other kinds of hepatitis (which really just means liver disease) can

be gotten more easily, like restaurant employees who don't wash their

hands, or farm workers going to the bathroom on the plants because

the porta-potty is too far away, or even seafood. But there is no

vaccine against them.

Not only that, something like 1 in 10 people who get the full series

of vaccines aren't even immune. The shots don't have a very good

record of protection - I found that out when I worked in a drug

treatment program that was required by law to offer all their

employees the shots. And there is a fairly high incidence of side-

effects.

There's a website where people report adverse reactions and some of

them are scary, like kids whose hair all fell out (and didn't grow

back!), etc.

Then there's the theory that the way vaccines offer lasting

protection is by causing chronic low-level disease. That's what

keeps the immunity against the organism. So how many chronic

diseases do you want to introduce to an infant?

A doctor in Europe found the Measles strain used in the MMR vaccine

still living in the digestive tract of a boy who had been vaccinated

years earlier - and in his unvaccinated brother as well. They both

had digestive problems and some food sensitivity. Is that where all

the celiac, food sensitivities, etc. are coming from these days???

>

> > Hep B is the worst. I just don't get it. It is listed as only

lasting

> > for

> > 10-15 years so WHY give it a newborn.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Don't forget the baby is YOURS and BELONGS to YOU! They can't take

the baby anywhere without your consent, just as you can't grab a

stranger's child to take it into another room. They use their

authority to intimidate people because it makes their life easier.

There's no reason they can't screen your child with you or your

husband or a friend present. And they should be willing to sanitize

anything in front of you that will touch the baby as well. Don't

worry about seeming like a jerk - this is your precious baby that

you've carried for 9 months and loved before you met.

You don't even have to allow the baby to be screened, weighed, or

anything else they want to do. Let me tell you something else -

often in hospitals they'll give babies bottles of sugar water to keep

them calm when they're away from Mom. There's an arrogance that

comes from working in a job with too much to do and not enough staff

and difficult patients that makes some personnel forget that

individuals have rights and try to sneak things past you, like in

Temple Hospital in Philly, an intern told me when pregnant women

hadn't given birth yet and the MD wanted to go home, they'd put

pitocin in the IV, telling her it was " vitamins " or some such to

hurry the delivery along. Not nice since it makes the contractions

harder and more painful!

I have too many family members in the medical field and all of them

look down on their patients as if they're all ignorant and don't know

what's best for them. I think part of it is burn-out, but still be

aware you're putting yourself in a sweatshop environment with people

who are tired and want to go home in charge of your baby's health and

safety.

>

> I just want to make it clear that my midwife isn't " pushing "

anything - she

> mentioned it just once. I'm a little appalled to find out that the

hospital

> environment isn't as clean as I'd expect as well as the fact the

virus can

> live 7 days out of the body (Thanks ) and I'm glad she

mentioned it to

> me because I would have been irritated to find that out after the

fact.

>

> The hospital I'm going to is very good at allowing immediate BFing

and I do

> have immunity to HBV - but it seems their policy is to take the

baby to the

> nursery immediately after the first BFing session for screening

(then the

> baby returns for rooming in and only goes back to the nursery when

the

> pediatrician visits). I'm gonna see if they'd do the newborn

screening in

> my room, and since I'm not going to be using the pediatrician on

charge I'm

> gonna ask if they'd skip the nursery for that too.

>

> My midwife thankfully suggested a pediatrician who is very

religious (the

> only exemption one can get in this state is a religious one). I

will be

> contacting him this week to discuss the vaccination exemption. I'm

hoping

> that I don't have to be a formal member of a church to get the

exemption,

> but we'll see what he says. She did have a second recommendation

if he

> wasn't up for it.

>

> Thanks!

> -Lana

>

>

> > I don't know why the midwife is pushing this except she believes

the

> > propaganda.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know if this has already been covered in this thread, but the

hep B vaccine is proven to result in cross-reactive antibodies to

myelin and hep B in 60% of people who get it. I think it is insane

that there has not been put a moratorium on it, and I think it is

insane to get it regardless of how long hep B stays around on

surfaces.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Greetings and Pardon me if this has already been said. I am a nurse - a

nursing instructor in fact. I work to dispel myths and get people informed. I

don't " work " in the hospital anymore as I dont' agree with everything they teach

or do.

As for the Hep B vaccine - I know here in Florida a child is not permitted

to enter public school without it anymore - or won't be in the next few years

due to outbreaks of it in our schools. Personally if they would teach these

children better manners and cleaner habits as well as more about sex education

and understanding and resisting peer pressures, that would definitely help.

They offer this vaccine to newborns before they go home because by the time

the kids are school age - it will be required. Unless you can get the

exemption which I think it perfectly logical - education of parents and kids

would

prevent so much of this. But the government generally doesn't expect that to

happen - and parents I see many of whom aren't doing it. Parents expect the

schools to teach but only so much and they aren't teaching it at home - where

is

a kid to get it all?

And the screening they want to run is called a PKU test - it is required an

all newborns in the USA within 48 hours of delivery after the first feeding.

They can do it in your room but usually don't because the baby gets so upset -

not from pain - it doesn't actually hurt as I have checked it on myself, but

the position they hold the babies foot in is a bit constricting and looks

brutal. But do be careful if they use a warming pack on the baby's heel to

promote blood flow - one nurse used a hot washcloth instead of the temp

controlled pad and caused 2nd degree burns on my coworkers granddaughter - not

good!

PKU is rare - I think it is like 1 in 1000 - may be even less I can't

remember - but these children cannot process any of the amino acid

phenylalanine and

that is an amino acid in so many foods, mom's milk included. If a child has

this they have to be put on a special diet that has little to not

phenylalanine or they end up with serve irreversible brain damage within a few

months. I

have yet to find a more natural alternative to this as little babies but as

children and adults they can eat healthier and controlled diets with little

to no processed foods. I think it has to do with certain types of proteins.

Hope that helps Many hospitals are finally beginning to understand - our

local hospital is becoming " baby friendly " in that they are encouraging breast

feeding for everyone and will actually " fight " a mom who doesn't want to

breat but wants bottle - I think that is a bit extreme, but it is headed in the

right direction with education from conception and not automatically offering

a bottle or pacifier.

Be Well

Aauriane in Orlando

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana,

If it hasn't been suggested already, you might want to join the

Vaccinations group,

< Vaccinations/ >.

There are a lot of people who are very knowledgeable about this and

can help you out with their experiences.

HTH,

Therese Vista Hoover

Middleburg, VA

>

> I just want to make it clear that my midwife isn't " pushing "

anything - she

> mentioned it just once. I'm a little appalled to find out that the

hospital

> environment isn't as clean as I'd expect as well as the fact the

virus can

> live 7 days out of the body (Thanks ) and I'm glad she

mentioned it to

> me because I would have been irritated to find that out after the

fact.

>

> The hospital I'm going to is very good at allowing immediate BFing

and I do

> have immunity to HBV - but it seems their policy is to take the

baby to the

> nursery immediately after the first BFing session for screening

(then the

> baby returns for rooming in and only goes back to the nursery when

the

> pediatrician visits). I'm gonna see if they'd do the newborn

screening in

> my room, and since I'm not going to be using the pediatrician on

charge I'm

> gonna ask if they'd skip the nursery for that too.

>

> My midwife thankfully suggested a pediatrician who is very

religious (the

> only exemption one can get in this state is a religious one). I

will be

> contacting him this week to discuss the vaccination exemption. I'm

hoping

> that I don't have to be a formal member of a church to get the

exemption,

> but we'll see what he says. She did have a second recommendation

if he

> wasn't up for it.

>

> Thanks!

> -Lana

>

>

> > I don't know why the midwife is pushing this except she believes

the

> > propaganda.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Are you sure that 60% figure is right? I've read about demyelinating

disorders being a possible side effect of the shot, but never saw a figure

anywhere near as high as that. Could you please post your reference?

Thanks!

-Lana

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

wrote:

> I don't know if this has already been covered in this thread, but the

> hep B vaccine is proven to result in cross-reactive antibodies to

> myelin and hep B in 60% of people who get it. I think it is insane

> that there has not been put a moratorium on it, and I think it is

> insane to get it regardless of how long hep B stays around on

> surfaces.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

I was also reading on the lyme strategies list about aspartame being in

vaccines now but didn't get to finish reading it yet.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:22 AM

Subject: Re: Hepatitis B was: Vaccines, need some advice

Are you sure that 60% figure is right? I've read about demyelinating

disorders being a possible side effect of the shot, but never saw a figure

anywhere near as high as that. Could you please post your reference?

Thanks!

-Lana

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...

<mailto:chrismasterjohn%40gmail.com> >

wrote:

> I don't know if this has already been covered in this thread, but the

> hep B vaccine is proven to result in cross-reactive antibodies to

> myelin and hep B in 60% of people who get it. I think it is insane

> that there has not been put a moratorium on it, and I think it is

> insane to get it regardless of how long hep B stays around on

> surfaces.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

>

> There's no reason they can't screen your child with you or your

> husband or a friend present. And they should be willing to sanitize

> anything in front of you that will touch the baby as well. Don't

> worry about seeming like a jerk - this is your precious baby that

> you've carried for 9 months and loved before you met.

>

Very good point. I wasn't so much worried about seeming like a jerk just

that it isn't so much in my nature to be bossy and demanding: thanks for

reminding me that I have every right to be.

> I think part of it is burn-out, but still be

> aware you're putting yourself in a sweatshop environment with people

> who are tired and want to go home in charge of your baby's health and

> safety.

>

This is a very good description of the hospital environment - it is sad that

it is so true.

I contacted the pediatrician my CNM recommended and I really like him! He

said he'd be perfectly fine with a religious exemption. I'm picking up some

paperwork next time I go by there so I can finalize everything.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana,

> Are you sure that 60% figure is right?

Yep.

>I've read about demyelinating

> disorders being a possible side effect of the shot, but never saw a figure

> anywhere near as high as that.

The demyelinating disorders do not occur in the 60% -- that is a rare

effect. The antibodies that are likely to be the cause of the

demyelinating disorder occur in 60%, at least for a period of time

after. The fact that a controlled study showed this makes the case

for a causal connection between the observed demyelinating disorders

associated with it quite strong.

> Could you please post your reference?

It's been a while since I read the study, but I think this one might be it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16295528?ordinalpos=8 & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn\

trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> The demyelinating disorders do not occur in the 60% -- that is a rare

> effect.

Ahhh!! That makes much more sense.

> The antibodies that are likely to be the cause of the

> demyelinating disorder occur in 60%, at least for a period of time

> after. The fact that a controlled study showed this makes the case

> for a causal connection between the observed demyelinating disorders

> associated with it quite strong.

That is certainly disturbing. Thanks for the article!

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana,

The half life is not nearly as important as immunity, & as you well know that

is different for everyone.

Best regards, Jim

Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

I really bought this argument until my midwife pointed out that like

most

STDs, Hepatitis is transferable via blood and can be caught by touching

surfaces that have been exposed to the virus (not very pertinent for home

birth, but I'm giving birth in the hospital so it is definitely food for

thought). She said before making a final decision, that I should find out

how long the virus is alive when exposed to the air. I haven't had any luck

finding out how many hours the Hepatitis B virus survives: Anyone know?

Thanks!!

-Lana

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:09 PM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

Even if she decides to vaccinate her child, there is no reason to

vaccinate against an STD (hepatitis) when the child is only a day old!

Wait until she's a teen at least!

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:22 PM, <organicstump@...> wrote:

> Hep B is the worst. I just don't get it. It is listed as only lasting

> for

> 10-15 years so WHY give it a newborn.

>

[Guest guest]

haecklers,

> Don't forget the baby is YOURS and BELONGS to YOU! They can't take

> the baby anywhere without your consent, just as you can't grab a

> stranger's child to take it into another room. They use their

> authority to intimidate people because it makes their life easier.

> There's no reason they can't screen your child with you or your

> husband or a friend present. And they should be willing to sanitize

> anything in front of you that will touch the baby as well. Don't

> worry about seeming like a jerk - this is your precious baby that

> you've carried for 9 months and loved before you met.

Absolutely. I would recommend reading to anyone going into a hospital

for any kind of care to read _Confessions of a Medical Heretic_ by Dr.

Mendelsohn.

> You don't even have to allow the baby to be screened, weighed, or

> anything else they want to do. Let me tell you something else -

> often in hospitals they'll give babies bottles of sugar water to keep

> them calm when they're away from Mom. There's an arrogance that

> comes from working in a job with too much to do and not enough staff

> and difficult patients that makes some personnel forget that

> individuals have rights and try to sneak things past you, like in

> Temple Hospital in Philly, an intern told me when pregnant women

> hadn't given birth yet and the MD wanted to go home, they'd put

> pitocin in the IV, telling her it was " vitamins " or some such to

> hurry the delivery along.

That is insane!

> I have too many family members in the medical field and all of them

> look down on their patients as if they're all ignorant and don't know

> what's best for them. I think part of it is burn-out, but still be

> aware you're putting yourself in a sweatshop environment with people

> who are tired and want to go home in charge of your baby's health and

> safety.

A neighbor of mine is a doctor who works in pediatrics at the local

University Hospital not to far from where I live. I bumped into him

recently and commented that he looked really tired. He said he had

just finished a 36 hour shift!!!!!!!!!

That is insane.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck