Re: immunologist whistleblower on vaccines - Bill & Melinda Gates Fo

[Guest guest]

AFAIK they can't get immune titres when they test the vaccines, without

the aluminum in them. So the toxin seems to be necessary to scare the

immune system into reacting.

Some of these accusations have been picked up in the European press, but

not covered here. For instance I read of one test of a birth control

vaccine which made all the women sterile. The test was done on Latin

American women, and the report covered in the British press. They were

using primate cells to grow the vaccine. . . .

I have read the studies about fluoride and lead absorbtion. It's one of

reasons that formula fed infants have much greater effects from lead

poisoning than breastfed ones.

Where did you finally post the interview? Has this immunologist given an

interview anywhere else?

Thanks,

Desh

____________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Maybe she's read " A Career in Microbiology Can Be Harmful To Your

Health " http://www.greatdreams.com/microbiologists.htm

It lists all the microbiologists who have died under mysterious

circumstances. Looks like they're adding professions too. May want to

check it against what your friends/family members do for a living!

--- In , " Suze Fisher " <suzefisher@...>

wrote:

> Assuming she's still alive :-), not that I'm aware of. I think she's

> seriously concerned about her safety so the more interviews she does

the

> less likely she'll be able to hide her identity. But I really have no

idea

> if she's going to do more interviews or not. did say he

wanted to

> have her back on.

>

> Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Is there such a tag? Really?

Maybe it sounds paranoid to the uninitiated, but isn't such a far

stretch from the conspiracies we talk about here - i.e. cholesterol

con, raw milk vs. pasturized, the REAL causes of heart disease,

diabetes, etc.

When you start to dig more deeply, you find that the business world

is full of people who use dirty methods to make sure they come out

ahead. It varies in how far they are willing to go, but if you read

a book like " Confessions of an Economic Hitman " or very much at all

about Monsanto, you'll see big business is capable of quite a lot.

We like to think of ourselves as civilized, but in other countries

that aren't quite as well regulated, hiring hit men to go against the

competition is a common practice, as my brother-in-law from Bahrain

is quick to tell me. Who would you kill - the CEO who can be

replaced or the competition's top scientist who may be the only one

who knows the full story of the current " bleeding edge " whatever it

is. Just one case in point.

> >

> > > Assuming she's still alive :-), not that I'm aware of. I think

she's

> > > seriously concerned about her safety so the more interviews she

does

> > the

> > > less likely she'll be able to hide her identity. But I really

have no

> > idea

> > > if she's going to do more interviews or not. did say

he

> > wanted to

> > > have her back on.

> > >

> > > Suze

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, those 7 foot shape-changing space lizards!

I think that stuff comes up regularly because there are people here

who question and once you start questioning authority/accepted reality

(Can I trust what the Doctor says?) it shakes up the house of cards

and you have to at least explore the rest of the stuff, or at least

some of us do.

What is it that leads people to a group like this? Isn't it raw

curiosity and the willingness to question authority? Wouldn't those

same traits lead people to look into, and question other things as

well? I've seriously looked into all kinds of crazy stuff -

illuminati, etc. A lot of it after ahwile I decide is just craziness

or mass delusion, but I'm happier with myself for giving it a fair

evaluation than dismissing it just because it isn't mainstream.

After all, low-salt, low-cholesterol is mass-delusion too. (When you

stop being a sheep and following the crowd, you find a lot of choices

in which direction to go.)

I'd bet that part of the reason that these types of topics come up

here more than nutrition sometimes is just that nobody is posting

anything interesting about nutrition at the time, and those wheels

keep spinning anyways.

But don't worry, Implode, I don't think you're part of " The System "

just because you don't share our curiosity in these things or

willingness to explore conspiracy theories. Many people don't for

their own reasons and I guess it can make them feel uncomfortable

when others do. Maybe there SHOULD be a " CONSPIRACY " label!

>

> There is quite a large gap between the acceptance that there are

unscrupulous business people and corporations, and even that the

system is corrupt, and people being murdered left and right in all

sorts of contexts - 9/11 planned by the Bush govt, scientists being

killed systematically, AIDS unleashed on the world by the U.S. etc.

Most of these have appeared on this list at one point or another

(along with other ones) and the attitude seems to be - the only

evidence that's actually needed to make these views plausible is

skepticism about the motives of our current government. No real

evidence ever needs to be provided. All paranoia immediately accepted

here.

>

> Of course, if you think that a lot of these posts are crazy, then

you're immediately accused (by implication) of supporting the system.

>

> It seems to me that over the last couple of years, this lists has

degenerated more and more into repeated posts about this kind of

nonsense, with less and less real nutritional information being

provided. After all, the most important thing is that this is all an

occult conspiracy by the real, hidden, government, right?

[Guest guest]

implode,

I think anyone who's gone through some of the health problems that

some of us on here have gone through find it easy to believe that

conspiracies are everywhere. I always use this quote by Mel Gibson

regarding the downplaying of conspiracy theories: " men conspire "

that's what they do, especially when it comes to money. Not only

that, but it doesn't take real thought-out conspiring/planning for

people to get away with what they do. It's the nature of beauracracy

and our busy, complicated world for the truth to get lost in the

details of agendas, protocols , institutions, etc. You know the

saying " buyer beware " ? This implies there is a responsiblity to not

be naive and understand human nature when you are making a purchase.

You can mitigate ill will and it's effects if you are aware of it.

You mentioned the list degenerating. I think it would definitely be

degenerating if you or anyone felt censored. Do you feel that way?

Personally I don't like it if one viewpoint is dominating a

discussion. I like to hear different sides so dissenting posts are

important to me, hopefully done with tact and manners of course. I

would like to think this group is capable of handling dissenting

views as a whole. I think it is. It's from different viewpoints that

the bigger picture emerges plus it would suck if we couldn't see past

the conspiracies, real or imagined and we gave up our power to

them.

I worked for a non-profit organization and I was amazed at the power

of letters to influence things and have accountability. Many groups

take advantage of this and change the way we do things for better or

worse. So I wouldn't want our power to be given away in the name of

airing out various conspiracies we know of without an outlet for our

angst in terms of doing something about it as well. I think this

creates anxiety unconducive to healing to feel that life in America

now is a no win situation. There are victories. When I think of how

the weston price organization has grown and spread over the years, I

am almost overwhelmed.

> > >

> > > There is quite a large gap between the acceptance that there

are

> > unscrupulous business people and corporations, and even that the

> > system is corrupt, and people being murdered left and right in

all

> > sorts of contexts - 9/11 planned by the Bush govt, scientists

being

> > killed systematically, AIDS unleashed on the world by the U.S.

etc.

> > Most of these have appeared on this list at one point or another

> > (along with other ones) and the attitude seems to be - the only

> > evidence that's actually needed to make these views plausible is

> > skepticism about the motives of our current government. No real

> > evidence ever needs to be provided. All paranoia immediately

accepted

> > here.

> > >

> > > Of course, if you think that a lot of these posts are crazy,

then

> > you're immediately accused (by implication) of supporting the

system.

> > >

> > > It seems to me that over the last couple of years, this lists

has

> > degenerated more and more into repeated posts about this kind of

> > nonsense, with less and less real nutritional information being

> > provided. After all, the most important thing is that this is all

an

> > occult conspiracy by the real, hidden, government, right?

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- Gene <implode7@...> wrote:

> I think that it's good to develop the skills to filter out the

> nonsense, and concentrate on the more important things.

Gene, I agree. This post was originally about vaccines. Everything

that's been mentioned in this thread has been around on the internet

for years. So far, I haven't seen anything new.

My take on vaccines is that some vaccines may actually reduce the risk

of getting a particular disease in some people who take the vaccine.

Some vaccines appear to better at this than others. But the problem

is that drug companies in order to make more money keep inventing new

vaccines for this, that, and the other. They also tend to downplay or

ignore the side effects the vaccines cause and over-rate their

effectiveness - all to enhance profits. Too many vaccines means more

and more side effects affecting more and more people. Some of these

side effects can be quite serious and even cause death in a few

people. There also seems to be plenty of evidence that vaccines

contribute to immune dysfunction problems like auto-immune diseases

and allergies.

It boils down to risk. Is the risk of getting disease X worth the

risk of getting serious side effects from taking a vaccine that may or

may not prevent you from getting the disease? My thinking is that in

most cases more harm is caused by most vaccines than is prevented. If

we suddenly have a plague that is killing millions every day, I might

be willing to take a vaccine for it. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

I think the drug companies are conspiring to take our money

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

My un-asked-for two-cent's worth is that " debate skills " is a waste

of time - when you learn to argue the side you're assigned, you seem

to develop more moral flexibility and " spin " skills than the ability

to get down to the root/truth of things. I did debate in high

school, and decided that " debating skills " are a waste of time.

Sure, people can out-argue me, but since my point is hopefully less

about winning than finding out the truth, I don't care. Debate is

for politicians and lawyers, in my humble opinion.

>I'm

> a little bummed tonight. I withdrew my daughter from a debate

group. Her

> father is too busy, working remote. And me? I don't have a clue

what good

> debate techniques are. I have worked really hard at pouring

through the

> books, getting it down, and I'm toast. I wish it came naturally.

>

> Sharon

[Guest guest]

>> Certainly I have not ever advocated censorship here. Your

reasoning is that if disagree that all bad things are the result of

deep, dark conspiracies, that I advocate censorship?

I think you have a reading comprehension problem. I was asking you

how you felt. Do you feel censored? If you answered yes, then that

should be discussed on here, perhaps with the moderator. I wouldn't

want a person to feel censored. That was the point of my post. The

point of my post was that dissenting views are important be it yours

or anyone else's. Remember I wrote " from viewpoints the bigger

picture emerges " If people want to openly discuss conspiracy

theories what is that to you? If you don't like it, don't read it.

You can't marginalize discussions on here, food touches every area of

life: Politics, the workplace, religion, the environment. You can

point out imbalances (if the posts are getting way too off track from

nutrition) but people will more likely to welcome your posts if

weren't drawing conclusions that they aren't making.

>>>Post all you want about these wacko conspiracy theories, and in

the interest of free speech, I can comment on what you say.

I think you are being overly aggressive here which is actually not

conducive to good, open discussion. Just make your points without

being so over-emotional.

> I've also not implied that it isn't 'easy to believe' that there

are conspiracies everywhere. In fact, as I recall, Mel Gibson

believes that Jews are responsible for some of them.

Jews are responsible, Christians are repsonsible, Hindus are

responsible. etc., etc. Again the human nature thing.

> You again seem to be arguing the premise that because some people

conspire, and because some people are evil, it is therefore plausible

that practically anything is a conspiracy despite a total lack of

real evidence in many cases, and despite the fact that some of these

conspiracies just sound, well, plain crazy.

Yes that's sort of right, anything can be a conspiracy theory. In

life a person always has to think for themselves and not go

unconscious in any thing. This doesn't mean lose your head and start

accusing people of conspiring if they aren't conspiring, just don't

go unconscious to human nature. Again " Buyer Beware " is the best way

to put this b/c it takes out all the emotion. By the way a doctor in

Pittsburgh came out on the news saying not to use cellphones. He

literally said not to wait for more studies and 'evidence' b/c you

would be harming yourself and your children. So what is evidence in

the end? I don't think a person on this chat group would bring up

anything they couldn't back up with " evidence " Who does that?

Everyone has some basis for what they think.

> I've never argued that there are no conspiracies. Of course, the

fact that there are, and the fact that people have had health

problems, and the fact that it's easy to believe that there are huge,

occult, secret conspiracies controlling all events on earth doesn't

mean that the world really works that way. Certainly it's good to

consider dissenting views in most things, but it's not always

considered sane or ethical to do so. Let's consider a dissenting

view, for instance, to whether it was wrong for the Nazis to kill

millions of innocent people, or whether the earth isn't flat.

The only point well made. Yes lets consider it but to consider it

would require someone to make a post about it but who would be the

one to determine that this is an important thing to discuss and not

just nonsense to be filtered out as you said this group should be

doing?... you?

I think what you are getting from my previous post is that conspircy

theories are the dissenting views and you speaking against them is

not allowing dissension. But actually you are the dissenter in this

case b/c conspiracy theories are well supported on this group and as

I wrote, counter point of views are very important. Even if they are

yours and don't come out very well.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: " Cray Fish " <crayfishfeed@...>

> > implode,

> >

> > I think anyone who's gone through some of the health problems

that

> > some of us on here have gone through find it easy to believe that

> > conspiracies are everywhere. I always use this quote by Mel

Gibson

> > regarding the downplaying of conspiracy theories: " men conspire "

> > that's what they do, especially when it comes to money. Not only

> > that, but it doesn't take real thought-out conspiring/planning

for

> > people to get away with what they do. It's the nature of

beauracracy

> > and our busy, complicated world for the truth to get lost in the

> > details of agendas, protocols , institutions, etc. You know the

> > saying " buyer beware " ? This implies there is a responsiblity to

not

> > be naive and understand human nature when you are making a

purchase.

> > You can mitigate ill will and it's effects if you are aware of it.

> >

> >

> > You mentioned the list degenerating. I think it would definitely

be

> > degenerating if you or anyone felt censored. Do you feel that

way?

> >

> > Personally I don't like it if one viewpoint is dominating a

> > discussion. I like to hear different sides so dissenting posts

are

> > important to me, hopefully done with tact and manners of course.

I

> > would like to think this group is capable of handling dissenting

> > views as a whole. I think it is. It's from different viewpoints

that

> > the bigger picture emerges plus it would suck if we couldn't see

past

> > the conspiracies, real or imagined and we gave up our power to

> > them.

> >

> > I worked for a non-profit organization and I was amazed at the

power

> > of letters to influence things and have accountability. Many

groups

> > take advantage of this and change the way we do things for better

or

> > worse. So I wouldn't want our power to be given away in the name

of

> > airing out various conspiracies we know of without an outlet for

our

> > angst in terms of doing something about it as well. I think this

> > creates anxiety unconducive to healing to feel that life in

America

> > now is a no win situation. There are victories. When I think of

how

> > the weston price organization has grown and spread over the

years, I

> > am almost overwhelmed.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > > >

> > > > > There is quite a large gap between the acceptance that

there

> > are

> > > > unscrupulous business people and corporations, and even that

the

> > > > system is corrupt, and people being murdered left and right

in

> > all

> > > > sorts of contexts - 9/11 planned by the Bush govt, scientists

> > being

> > > > killed systematically, AIDS unleashed on the world by the

U.S.

> > etc.

> > > > Most of these have appeared on this list at one point or

another

> > > > (along with other ones) and the attitude seems to be - the

only

> > > > evidence that's actually needed to make these views plausible

is

> > > > skepticism about the motives of our current government. No

real

> > > > evidence ever needs to be provided. All paranoia immediately

> > accepted

> > > > here.

> > > > >

> > > > > Of course, if you think that a lot of these posts are

crazy,

> > then

> > > > you're immediately accused (by implication) of supporting the

> > system.

> > > > >

> > > > > It seems to me that over the last couple of years, this

lists

> > has

> > > > degenerated more and more into repeated posts about this kind

of

> > > > nonsense, with less and less real nutritional information

being

> > > > provided. After all, the most important thing is that this is

all

> > an

> > > > occult conspiracy by the real, hidden, government, right?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

> My un-asked-for two-cent's worth is that " debate skills " is a waste

> of time - when you learn to argue the side you're assigned, you seem

> to develop more moral flexibility and " spin " skills than the ability

> to get down to the root/truth of things. I did debate in high

> school, and decided that " debating skills " are a waste of time.

> Sure, people can out-argue me, but since my point is hopefully less

> about winning than finding out the truth, I don't care. Debate is

> for politicians and lawyers, in my humble opinion.

There's a movie titled Thank you for Smoking that is about debate to

some degree and the main character who promotes smoking says " That's

the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong " I

thought that was funny.Debate is a waste of time if you are trying to

change someone else's mind. It can be enjoyable for some people as a

chance to express themselves and think out loud, which is important,

but it can have little to do with the truth. Mostly it's people

twisting each other's words.

[Guest guest]

Look I'll be honest with you, I am not going to read this whole

thing, I don't have the energy or desire and it's so far off track

right now it's just a waste of my time. You are not interested in

anything but going off on tangential arguments. I'm up for discusion

for exchange of info but not some timewasting endeavor of having you

try to dissect one of my sentences or a part of my sentence outside

the context of the post and my main intention (which I am just

repeating over and over at this point.)

The one thing I will reply to is this part: I wasn't being sarcastic

when I asked you if you felt you were being censored. Maybe you

should have asked me if I was before you presumed. You should have

been able to determine my position from the intentions of my post. It

was clear that I want to encourage a multi-sided representation on

any give thread. You are saying that some threads shouldn't be made

in the first place and to that I say that's not for you to determine

by yourself. You said the post should have a paranoia tag, that the

list is degenerating, that the posts had nonsense, that there should

be a filtering of conspiracy theories. List your points of

disagreements and the sources if you want, that's all you can do but

stop attacking the list and if you can't disagree with a post without

attacking it, ignore it. It's pretty simple.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There is quite a large gap between the acceptance that

> > there

> > > > are

> > > > > > unscrupulous business people and corporations, and even

that

> > the

> > > > > > system is corrupt, and people being murdered left and

right

> > in

> > > > all

> > > > > > sorts of contexts - 9/11 planned by the Bush govt,

scientists

> > > > being

> > > > > > killed systematically, AIDS unleashed on the world by the

> > U.S.

> > > > etc.

> > > > > > Most of these have appeared on this list at one point or

> > another

> > > > > > (along with other ones) and the attitude seems to be - the

> > only

> > > > > > evidence that's actually needed to make these views

plausible

> > is

> > > > > > skepticism about the motives of our current government. No

> > real

> > > > > > evidence ever needs to be provided. All paranoia

immediately

> > > > accepted

> > > > > > here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Of course, if you think that a lot of these posts are

> > crazy,

> > > > then

> > > > > > you're immediately accused (by implication) of supporting

the

> > > > system.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It seems to me that over the last couple of years, this

> > lists

> > > > has

> > > > > > degenerated more and more into repeated posts about this

kind

> > of

> > > > > > nonsense, with less and less real nutritional information

> > being

> > > > > > provided. After all, the most important thing is that

this is

> > all

> > > > an

> > > > > > occult conspiracy by the real, hidden, government, right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Gene-

I am one on this list who tends to agree with you about political topics

more often than not, I just don't have the screen time to enter into

debate. It is particularly hard to follow your posts with all the

arrows, and keep another eye on the work I should be doing instead of

debating. . . .

But as one with small children who has researched the vaccine issue quite

a bit, it is not really a stretch that these folks could be murderers- if

you read through the VAERS list at all, it becomes clear that vaccines

kill, anyway, and that the companies know they do. Even more mainstream

press has covered the iffy science in the IOM reports on vaccines (

Kennedy's Salon.com article, for instance) and in the past it was

possible to find online transcripts of committee meetings on vaccine

safety with the administrative Drs. requesting anti-vax testimony struck

from the record, etc. It is quite clear also that foundations such as

the Gates and others set up by the vax industry which 'donate' vaxes are

merely shuttling off vax lots that are questionable in production or

expiring into the 3rd world. That's why they phased out thimerisol,

rather than making it illegal right away- so they could dump their

backstock into folks none of the oligarchy really cares about.

I've stated before that my liberal and radical friends and I were

followed by FBeye agents, had our pictures taken and phones tapped before

and during the first Gulf War and during our campaigns to help the

homeless. It happened fast enough that it was apparent that the big

brother presence in Philly was extensive. Whenever I think that

conspiracy theorists are just wack jobs I remember that time in my life.

It was scary. And though I shouldn't admit it here, I could probably

have a hit put out on someone if I wanted to. Why couldn't an ambitious

pharma exec?

Desh

____________________________________________________________

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