OT: Debate Skills, was immunologist whistleblower on vaccines - Bill & Melinda Gates F

[Guest guest]

Thanks both of you for your input on debate. " Moral flexibility " is a great

way of summing up my aversion to the concept. I'd rather my daughter

focused on apologetics, actually, so will work toward that goal.

I actually think there's too much self-expression in the world with people

having to voice opinions, especially without knowledge, so the more you both

are describing the process, the more thankful I am I pulled her free of

it!!!

Any views on speech? She seems to enjoy that, but again, it wasn't

something that interested me. I was a jock-ette.....tennis, tennis,

tennis................that's all I wanted to think

about............*sigh*.............

Sharon

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Cray Fish <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>

> > My un-asked-for two-cent's worth is that " debate skills " is a waste

> > of time - when you learn to argue the side you're assigned, you seem

> > to develop more moral flexibility and " spin " skills than the ability

> > to get down to the root/truth of things. I did debate in high

> > school, and decided that " debating skills " are a waste of time.

> > Sure, people can out-argue me, but since my point is hopefully less

> > about winning than finding out the truth, I don't care. Debate is

> > for politicians and lawyers, in my humble opinion.

>

> There's a movie titled Thank you for Smoking that is about debate to

> some degree and the main character who promotes smoking says " That's

> the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong " I

> thought that was funny.Debate is a waste of time if you are trying to

> change someone else's mind. It can be enjoyable for some people as a

> chance to express themselves and think out loud, which is important,

> but it can have little to do with the truth. Mostly it's people

> twisting each other's words.

>

>

>

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to

conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon,

For what its worth I think that both of the posters quoted below are

wrong in their conclusion, while pointing out some elements which are

correct. If you are interested in apologetics, then the skills that

proper debate training can impart will be useful. The best Protestant

apologist I have ever read or heard was also the best debater I have

ever heard, and he put a premium on understanding how to debate, while

warning against the pitfalls that at least Christians might face when

learning these things, especially joining debate teams.

Also debate, i.e. oral argument and defense, was a part of the western

classical Christian education that so many homeschoolers, Christian

and otherwise, are seeking out today. Speech by the way, is very much

a part of the modern collegiate debate scene. Anyway I will give a

more complete and on point answer when I have a little more time

tonight.

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Sharon son <skericson@...> wrote:

> Thanks both of you for your input on debate. " Moral flexibility " is a great

> way of summing up my aversion to the concept. I'd rather my daughter

> focused on apologetics, actually, so will work toward that goal.

>

> I actually think there's too much self-expression in the world with people

> having to voice opinions, especially without knowledge, so the more you both

> are describing the process, the more thankful I am I pulled her free of

> it!!!

>

> Any views on speech? She seems to enjoy that, but again, it wasn't

> something that interested me. I was a jock-ette.....tennis, tennis,

> tennis................that's all I wanted to think

> about............*sigh*.............

>

> Sharon

>

> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Cray Fish <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

>

>>

>> > My un-asked-for two-cent's worth is that " debate skills " is a waste

>> > of time - when you learn to argue the side you're assigned, you seem

>> > to develop more moral flexibility and " spin " skills than the ability

>> > to get down to the root/truth of things. I did debate in high

>> > school, and decided that " debating skills " are a waste of time.

>> > Sure, people can out-argue me, but since my point is hopefully less

>> > about winning than finding out the truth, I don't care. Debate is

>> > for politicians and lawyers, in my humble opinion.

>>

>> There's a movie titled Thank you for Smoking that is about debate to

>> some degree and the main character who promotes smoking says " That's

>> the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong " I

>> thought that was funny.Debate is a waste of time if you are trying to

>> change someone else's mind. It can be enjoyable for some people as a

>> chance to express themselves and think out loud, which is important,

>> but it can have little to do with the truth. Mostly it's people

>> twisting each other's words.

>>

>>

>>

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to

> conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

> have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist

[Guest guest]

Well, it may be good for her to feel comfortable presenting

information to a crowd. That's a great skill to have.

I just finished the Autobiography of lin and he had

some interesting things to say about debate and apologia - that

sometimes winning the point caused so much animosity that it wasn't

worth it. He reversed his earlier opinions on the value of it quite

a bit as he got older and wiser - in his youth he delighted in out-

arguing people, and became a master of the Socratic method, which

still probably is better than debate.

I don't know your background, but other spiritual writers, from Elder

Porphyrios to St. Antony the Desert Father said there is no need for

speaking skills, the most moving arguments come from the person being

who they are, not from a skill that can be learned. Also an

interesting point.

>

> Thanks both of you for your input on debate. " Moral flexibility " is

a great

> way of summing up my aversion to the concept. I'd rather my

daughter

> focused on apologetics, actually, so will work toward that goal.

>

> I actually think there's too much self-expression in the world with

people

> having to voice opinions, especially without knowledge, so the more

you both

> are describing the process, the more thankful I am I pulled her

free of

> it!!!

>

> Any views on speech? She seems to enjoy that, but again, it wasn't

> something that interested me. I was a jock-ette.....tennis, tennis,

> tennis................that's all I wanted to think

> about............*sigh*.............

>

> Sharon

>

> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Cray Fish <crayfishfeed@...>

wrote:

>

> >

> > > My un-asked-for two-cent's worth is that " debate skills " is a

waste

> > > of time - when you learn to argue the side you're assigned, you

seem

> > > to develop more moral flexibility and " spin " skills than the

ability

> > > to get down to the root/truth of things. I did debate in high

> > > school, and decided that " debating skills " are a waste of time.

> > > Sure, people can out-argue me, but since my point is hopefully

less

> > > about winning than finding out the truth, I don't care. Debate

is

> > > for politicians and lawyers, in my humble opinion.

> >

> > There's a movie titled Thank you for Smoking that is about debate

to

> > some degree and the main character who promotes smoking

says " That's

> > the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never

wrong " I

> > thought that was funny.Debate is a waste of time if you are

trying to

> > change someone else's mind. It can be enjoyable for some people

as a

> > chance to express themselves and think out loud, which is

important,

> > but it can have little to do with the truth. Mostly it's people

> > twisting each other's words.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely

according to

> conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will

> have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

> Thanks both of you for your input on debate. " Moral flexibility " is a great

> way of summing up my aversion to the concept.

That is one way to frame the issue, and it is one reason Dr. Bahnsen

warned about debate teams, as I mentioned in my original response to

your post.

On the other hand, one of the things greatly lacking among people who

debate issues (and I'm using " debate " broadly to refer to any real

exchange of ideas, which is how debate works in the real world - like

on this list) is the unwillingness or inability to truly understand

the other side of an argument, and even further why someone could in

good conscience hold to a different position, especially when it seems

self-evident to you such position is stupid or dumb.

In competition debate, you spend three rounds defending one side, and

three rounds defending the other side. If handled properly, not only

does it help you see why the other side might be holding a particular

position, but can also help you see the weak points in your own

position. Putting yourself in another person's shoes can be a valuable

experience, even ideologically. It allows you, in the words of King

, " to answer a fool according to his folly. " In other words you

start on their ground and show how based on that ground they are wrong

or incorrect. But that means you must know that ground, and in knowing

that ground it usually makes you much more sensitive and gracious in

your reponse(s).

That doesn't mean you have to become a relativist and give up any idea

that there is such a thing as real or absolute truth, although that

can be a danger, and you really have to know yourself or your child

before jumping into such a free wheeling environment. It is also why,

IMO, King says immediately after telling the reader in

Proverbs to " answer a fool according to his folly " to " NOT answer a

fool according to his folly, " i.e. do not assume the fool's (false)

ground in your own answer.

By the way, the Old Testament use of the word " fool " describes someone

who is thick, a spiritual dullard, and not getting the point. It does

not have the same negative connotation that sometimes our modern usage

of the word conveys.

So when says " a fool has said in his heart there is no God, "

he is not using it as a pejorative that means the person is somehow

mentally deficient or something, but rather is using it to describe a

spiritual **state** which leads to a lack of understanding of

spiritual things.

> I'd rather my daughter

> focused on apologetics, actually, so will work toward that goal.

Well defending the faith, verbally or with the written word, which is

what I think you have in mind here, certainly requires that you have a

good handle on the opposing position. You don't have to join a debate

team to learn that, but you can certainly learn it while being on a

debate team.

> I actually think there's too much self-expression in the world with people

> having to voice opinions, especially without knowledge, so the more you both

> are describing the process, the more thankful I am I pulled her free of

> it!!!

>

> Any views on speech? She seems to enjoy that, but again, it wasn't

> something that interested me.

Here is the thing about debate teams, at least at the collegiate

level, 95% of the people involved do not participate in what is

normally called debate. **Very few** people participate in

Lincoln/s debate or team debate. Most of the activity in debate

competitions has nothing to do with going mano y mano with an opponent

on a particular issue. A lot of people do not have the disposition or

temperament for such a thing (especially given the dumbing down of our

modern educational system). Most of the activities are quite fun and

have to do with extemporanoeus speaking or answering questions on the

fly, etc.

For example you might select a topic from a hat and then you have 5

minutes to develop a concise and informative 2 minute speech about the

topic. Or maybe you have spent two weeks preparing a 10 minute speech

before the judges on a given topic, etc. Its a lot of fun and you

develop a good camaraderie with many of your competitors. So if you

actually went to a debate competition and saw hundreds of people, most

would not be involved in what we think of as classic debate, but

rather activities that would fall under the umbrella of speech and

learning to think on your feet.

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist