Re: Kidney Stones and doctor's advice

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/08, jennyrimszaclark <jennyrimszaclark@...> wrote:

> I recently went to a great doctor in Louisville for a blood work up

> and discussion about kidney stones. The doctor was helpful and

> recommended LOTS of things and was in favor of my weston a price

> lifestyle (which I recently started moderately following a year

> ago) - but I had questions about the supplements he recommended and

> wondered if anyone had wisdom on this (since generally I try to get

> my vitamins from food and he seemed to recommend a LOT). Also - I

> have had two kidney stones in my life - each four years apart so its

> not like this is a common occurance for me - yet one I don't wnat to

> repeat.

>

> The supplements he recommended were:

>

> - 200 mg twice daily of Vitamin B6

> - 200 mg twice daily of Magnesium Orotate

> - daily multivitmain such as Amni's Basic Preventative Four

> - 40,000 iu of vitamin A each day(I already get this with CLO)

> - 400iu of vitamin E each day

> - 2,000 mg of alkalinized vitamin C powder in the form of Perque

> four times daily

>

>

> Any thoughts on any of this? I am just wondering if I want to start

> taking all of this and if its all needed especially in supplements!

In my opinion, vitamin A is the most important on the list, and

vitamin K2 should be added (as the number one supplement.) I would

use Thorne, work up to 3-5 drops a day starting with one, over the

course of a week or so, providing you aren't on anticoagulant

medication.

I'm not familiar with magnesium orotate. Unless orotate has a

specific effect on kidney stones, I would use magnesium citrate,

because citrate is believed to independently solubilize calcium, and

Mg citrate is one of the better forms of Mg, so you get two bangs for

your buck.

I think the purpose of the B6 is to decrease endogenous production of

oxalate, but vitamin C increases this, so I don't know why C is on the

list, unless it has an addition benefit while the B6 is meant to

couteract its pro-oxalate effect. But the K2-dependent proteins

prevent deposition of calcium oxalate and that is their purpose, and

people with kidney stones have defective versions of these proteins

due apparently to K2 deficiency, and vitamin A prevents oxalate

deposition when oxalate is fed experimentally, so I would focus on

those nutrients rather than trying to micromanage oxalate levels.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I'm iffy about the C too... for that exact reason.

Did he say if your stones are oxalate or struvite? It is my understanding

oxalate is more common, thus you'd want to limit C.

Also, I didn't see B1 listed - it is also good for decreasing endogenous

production of oxalate. Go for thiamin cocarboxylase or thiamin HCl (you

don't want the mononitrate form).

-Lana

> I think the purpose of the B6 is to decrease endogenous production of

> oxalate, but vitamin C increases this, so I don't know why C is on the

> list, unless it has an addition benefit while the B6 is meant to

> couteract its pro-oxalate effect. But the K2-dependent proteins

> prevent deposition of calcium oxalate and that is their purpose, and

> people with kidney stones have defective versions of these proteins

> due apparently to K2 deficiency, and vitamin A prevents oxalate

> deposition when oxalate is fed experimentally, so I would focus on

> those nutrients rather than trying to micromanage oxalate levels.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

I've probably had about fifteen kidney stones in my life, most of

them after messing myself up with a mercury challenge test.

One of the problems I had from that test was a profound magnesium

deficiency. I exhibited many symptoms of this in the first few

months and then got hit by a wave of kidney stones that occurred

about once every three to four weeks. The only thing that seemed to

help me was massive supplementation with magnesium.

Most helpful of all forms was any topical applications, which mostly

consisted of magnesium chloride solution.

While this helped me, it still didn't drive them away.

One day I was reading about oxalates on the oxalate list and

got the idea to search for a way to reduce those.

The first thing I found on Google seemingly had nothing to do with

oxalates, but made such bold, yet logical sounding claims about it's

efficacy at removing stones that I thought I'd give it a try. The

product is called Uriflow, and if you happen to be on the oxalate

group, you've probably seen me praise this product a few times.

What this product claims to do, and actually does do with amazing

effectiveness, is alleviate and remove stones by attacking the

problem from several different approaches.

These mechanisms include dissolving the substance that holds the

stone together, dissolving the various pieces, opening up the kidney

so that junk is more easily flushed, soothe the kidney, etc.

What happened when I took this stuff was nothing short of amazing.

After about two weeks or so on it (my intent was to try it for the

one month the bottle would last), one day I noticed in my urine a LOT

of this sandy looking chaff. This continued for awhile and happy

that it seemed to be doing something, I went ahead and ordered

another month's worth.

To make this long story shorter, over the next six months, every

couple of weeks I would go through a short purging experience where

for a few days to a week I would release a lot of junk from my

kidneys.

At first it was this sandy stuff I mentioned above, but eventually I

started seeing bigger things, like little pebbles (far bigger than

any stone I had ever passed and collected!), dried blood and more.

This stuff stopped my kidney stones dead in it's tracks. What used

to occur monthly disappeared completely. The only stone I've had

since was self induced, when I experimented with massive doses of

vitamin C related to a detox protocol I was trying out.

If you want to prevent those stones from happening and are interested

in cleaning out any accumulations in your kidney, then I strongly

urge you to try this. Look around on the net for the lowest price,

as you can find it for about $20 less a bottle than most places sell

it for.

Dave

>

> I recently went to a great doctor in Louisville for a blood work up

> and discussion about kidney stones. The doctor was helpful and

> recommended LOTS of things and was in favor of my weston a price

> lifestyle (which I recently started moderately following a year

> ago) - but I had questions about the supplements he recommended and

> wondered if anyone had wisdom on this (since generally I try to get

> my vitamins from food and he seemed to recommend a LOT). Also - I

> have had two kidney stones in my life - each four years apart so

its

> not like this is a common occurance for me - yet one I don't wnat

to

> repeat.

>

> The supplements he recommended were:

>

> - 200 mg twice daily of Vitamin B6

> - 200 mg twice daily of Magnesium Orotate

> - daily multivitmain such as Amni's Basic Preventative Four

> - 40,000 iu of vitamin A each day(I already get this with CLO)

> - 400iu of vitamin E each day

> - 2,000 mg of alkalinized vitamin C powder in the form of Perque

> four times daily

>

>

> Any thoughts on any of this? I am just wondering if I want to

start

> taking all of this and if its all needed especially in supplements!

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

[Guest guest]

What I've heard about vitamin C is that it is only a risk for kidney

stones if your magnesium is very low; most people are low in

magnesium because it's a vital nutrient that isn't added back in with

chemical farming - mostly the N, P, and K are all that is looked at

until the plants start to suffer. So taking supplemental magnesium

may be a good choice. I'd imagine the vitamin C is good because, if

the kidney stones are a result of toxins like mercury it helps get

rid of that stuff.

The acid in apples, which I'm drawing a blank on the name just now,

is supposed to help dissolve any kind of stones. I've heard the best

form is apple cider vinegar, but eating apples and drinking cider is

supposed to be beneficial as well. Malic acid, that's it!

>

> I'm iffy about the C too... for that exact reason.

>

> Did he say if your stones are oxalate or struvite? It is my

understanding

> oxalate is more common, thus you'd want to limit C.

>

> Also, I didn't see B1 listed - it is also good for decreasing

endogenous

> production of oxalate. Go for thiamin cocarboxylase or thiamin HCl

(you

> don't want the mononitrate form).

>

> -Lana

>

>

>

> > I think the purpose of the B6 is to decrease endogenous

production of

> > oxalate, but vitamin C increases this, so I don't know why C is

on the

> > list, unless it has an addition benefit while the B6 is meant to

> > couteract its pro-oxalate effect. But the K2-dependent proteins

> > prevent deposition of calcium oxalate and that is their purpose,

and

> > people with kidney stones have defective versions of these

proteins

> > due apparently to K2 deficiency, and vitamin A prevents oxalate

> > deposition when oxalate is fed experimentally, so I would focus on

> > those nutrients rather than trying to micromanage oxalate levels.

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

> This stuff stopped my kidney stones dead in it's tracks. What used

> to occur monthly disappeared completely. The only stone I've had

> since was self induced, when I experimented with massive doses of

> vitamin C related to a detox protocol I was trying out.

How do you know that that particular kidney stone was caused by the

vitamin C? How much vitamin C were you taking and for how long? It

seems with your history of frequent kidney stones that it could have

been unrelated to the C.

I've read conflicting information on the connection between vitamin C

and kidney stones and so I'm interested in anyone's experiences.

Tom

[Guest guest]

There can be no doubt it was vitamin C. First it had been about 2-3

years since my last one prior to taking the Uriflow, and I had no

problems up until around the time I started introducing oxalate

forming substances back into my life, shortly before the kidney stone

in question.

Shortly before the vitamin C problem, I had resumed juicing veggies

again. Within a few days I had some kidney pains and a little blood

in my urine. When I figured out that parsley and celery are both

high oxalate foods, I immediately stopped with the juice and

everything seemed ok.

About a month later, I started on a protocol that included vitamin

C. Part of the protocol was to find out how much C you could

tolerate, and this was done by taking 1 gram every hour until you got

some sort of stomach upset. Typically, according to the Dr. who

wrote this protocol (I think Brownstein, the iodine guru), people

only get to 3-4 grams a day before their stomach gets upset.

I believe he said in his book or on his site that the most he's seen

a person tolerate is 17 grams in a day.

Apparently, because of my condition (mercury poisoning and subsequent

adrenal exhaustion), I could tolerate any amount of C I could take

down in a day. By the time I was up to 18 grams a day, I started

taking 2-3 grams an hour, with no ill effect. At least with the

stomach that is!

I finally got up to 34 grams of C in one day and that's when my

kidney stones came back. I stopped as soon as the kidney pains came,

did a few tricks I know that help the stone problem go away and have

not had a single problem with my kidneys since. I am undoubtedly

sensitive to oxalate forming substances, and C is well known to do

this to some people. I would imagine too that taking 34 grams was

pretty idiotic on my part.

It did seem to help my adrenals at least. If you really want to find

out more about C and oxalates. , the woman who runs the low

oxalate group, is quite knowledgeable on the topic. Join that group.

--- In , " Tom Jeanne " <tjeanne@...>

wrote:

>

> Dave,

>

>

>

> How do you know that that particular kidney stone was caused by the

> vitamin C? How much vitamin C were you taking and for how long? It

> seems with your history of frequent kidney stones that it could have

> been unrelated to the C.

>

> I've read conflicting information on the connection between vitamin

C

> and kidney stones and so I'm interested in anyone's experiences.

>

> Tom

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Thanks very much for the detailed information.

I'll check out the oxalate group.

Tom