Re: Natural Plant Toxins vs. Synthetic Pesticide (kids and foods)

[Guest guest]

I believe it has been shown that fetuses and even

developing kids are more susceptible to toxins than,

say, grown ups. I don't have the study but I think

Margie Profet is the main researcher into this and you

can google her.

If so, that goes a long way (perhaps) towards

explaining morning sickness and, for that matter, why

kids often HATE brocolli, onions, many spices and

other vegetables like these that tend to have more

toxins than others.

So, it is worth considering that when your kid refuses

to " EAT HIS/HER VEGETABLES " that you respect the kid's

wishes.

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

-WB Yeats

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[Guest guest]

,

> If so, that goes a long way (perhaps) towards

> explaining morning sickness and, for that matter, why

> kids often HATE brocolli, onions, many spices and

> other vegetables like these that tend to have more

> toxins than others.

>

> So, it is worth considering that when your kid refuses

> to " EAT HIS/HER VEGETABLES " that you respect the kid's

> wishes.

Especially Brussels sprouts, which cause cyanide toxicity in lab

animals. I cover this in a section of my crucifer article:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/crucifers.html#nitriles

Chris

[Guest guest]

> If so, that goes a long way (perhaps) towards

> explaining morning sickness and, for that matter, why

> kids often HATE brocolli, onions, many spices and

> other vegetables like these that tend to have more

> toxins than others.

>

> So, it is worth considering that when your kid refuses

> to " EAT HIS/HER VEGETABLES " that you respect the kid's

> wishes.

>

>

What do you think changes with adulthood?

I hate most veggies (supertaster, so many are bitter) but no one

respects my wishes, it seems.

Connie

[Guest guest]

--- cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

>

> What do you think changes with adulthood?

> I hate most veggies (supertaster, so many are

> bitter) but no one

> respects my wishes, it seems.

>

> Connie

Connie, according to what I have read on the matter,

it MAY be that children are more vulnerable to toxins

and have less capability at detoxing than adults.

Maybe women are repulsed by certain foods

during pregnancy in order to protect the fetus from

toxins it can't tolerate.

However, I am glad you asked this question, because I

was thinking the same thing, more or less. There are

some foods that I am absolutely repulsed by. Liver is

one. Now one might think that it's all in my head.

I don't think so. I can eat liver when it is

" disguised " . For example, I can definitely eat liver

pate', but if you put a piece of plain liver in front

of me, I will literally start to heave when I put it

in my mouth.

On the other hand there were foods I hated as a boy

that I now love.

Olives, for example. As a boy, I hated olives (most

children do, I believe). Now I love them.

So, should we respect our senses in regards to food?

Leaving aside those that nauseate us? As I see it,

there is a problem in that many people interested in

diet have an intellectual framework (a dogma, if you

like) that prejudices them against certain foods. For

example, when I was in my early 20s I was a vegan. At

that time, I would have told you meat nauseates me.

But that was definitely " in my head " .

Now when I think about the Masai drinking blood that

kind of gives me the creeps. That's probably in my

head. The problem I have with liver, however, does

not seem to be " in my head " .

So, the problem is sorting out the real instinct from

the conceptual roadblocks. That's USUALLY not very

black and white.

Interesting stuff to contemplate.

-

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

--- wrote:

> > If so, that goes a long way (perhaps) towards

> > explaining morning sickness and, for that matter, why

> > kids often HATE brocolli, onions, many spices and

> > other vegetables like these that tend to have more

> > toxins than others.

> >

> > So, it is worth considering that when your kid refuses

> > to " EAT HIS/HER VEGETABLES " that you respect the kid's

> > wishes.

>

--- Connie <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> What do you think changes with adulthood?

> I hate most veggies (supertaster, so many are bitter) but no one

> respects my wishes, it seems.

Connie and ,

I think you're right that you shouldn't eat foods that taste bitter.

Bitter, rancid, and putrid tastes have evolved to protect us from

potentially harmful foods. On the other hand, not all foods that

taste good are good for us - especially foods loaded with sugar,

polyunsaturated fat, or soy.

I like more vegetables as an adult than I did when I was a child,

maybe because you gradually lose some of the sense of taste as you get

older. I find that I like them best with a lot of butter or cheese.

There might be a good reason for that. The saturated fat in the

butter and cheese may help the body to better absorb nutrients and

reject toxins in the food I suspect.

But if you have to sweeten a food to make it taste good, I wouldn't

eat it. Many people, like me, become easily addicted to sugar. If

you have cravings for sweets you're addicted

I broke my addiction to sweets and I have no cravings at all. In

fact, now most desserts taste *too sweet*. I find that I like many

foods that would not have been sweet enough for me when I was

addicted, like plain kefir and yogurt. I think sour and tart tastes

are good now. Sugar is an overpowering and addictive drug for many

people. There are a lucky few that naturally reject sweet foods.

[Guest guest]

--- Seay <entheogens@...> wrote:

> As I see it, there is a problem in that many people interested in

> diet have an intellectual framework (a dogma, if you like) that

> prejudices them against certain foods. For example, when I was in

> my early 20s I was a vegan. At that time, I would have told you

> meat nauseates me. But that was definitely " in my head " .

,

I think you're exactly right about thoughts and sight influencing our

perception of food. Looks are a big part of eating. Food that looks

like vomit is not likely to be appealing. Food that looks like crap

is not likely to be appealing. Likewise, your frame of mind about the

treatment of animals can have a big influence. Looks can be

deceiving, but that's another aspect of eating that I believe has

evolved to help us reject potentially harmful foods.

> Now when I think about the Masai drinking blood that

> kind of gives me the creeps. That's probably in my

> head. The problem I have with liver, however, does

> not seem to be " in my head " .

Our perception of foods by sight is heavily influenced by our family

and peers. The Masai are raised this way, so it is normal for them.

Same for eating offal or bugs. Social constraints may be limiting.

Religious constraints may also be limiting.

> So, the problem is sorting out the real instinct from

> the conceptual roadblocks. That's USUALLY not very

> black and white.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head

[Guest guest]

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

>

> I think you're right that you shouldn't eat foods

> that taste bitter.

> Bitter, rancid, and putrid tastes have evolved to

> protect us from

> potentially harmful foods.

This is interesting, because I actually like bitter

foods. I love chicory and there is the Chinese

vegetable Ku gua (bittermelon) that I really like. My

only point is that one man's poison may be another

man's potion. I actually feel good and clean after

eating something bitter.

-

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

-WB Yeats

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

I'm not fond of veggies either so I no longer eat them. I can get the nutrients

from other

foods. No one respected my wishes when I stopped eating cakes, pies, cookies,

etc. but

eventually they stopped trying to get me to eat some. Maybe tell others you are

allergic to

vegetables. LOL I sometimes tell others that I ate SO many veggies when I was a

vegan

that I'm sick of them. Now, instead of eating a plain baked potato with just

salt on it, I eat

the butter, sour cream and cheese by itself and skip the potato. LOL I tell

others that I'm

making up for all the dry baked potatoes I ate or all the plain cooked veggies I

ate.

>

> > If so, that goes a long way (perhaps) towards

> > explaining morning sickness and, for that matter, why

> > kids often HATE brocolli, onions, many spices and

> > other vegetables like these that tend to have more

> > toxins than others.

> >

> > So, it is worth considering that when your kid refuses

> > to " EAT HIS/HER VEGETABLES " that you respect the kid's

> > wishes.

> >

> >

>

> What do you think changes with adulthood?

> I hate most veggies (supertaster, so many are bitter) but no one

> respects my wishes, it seems.

>

> Connie

>

[Guest guest]

--- Seay <entheogens@...> wrote:

> This is interesting, because I actually like bitter

> foods. I love chicory and there is the Chinese

> vegetable Ku gua (bittermelon) that I really like. My

> only point is that one man's poison may be another

> man's potion. I actually feel good and clean after

> eating something bitter.

,

I like cocoa, which is bitter, though I don't eat it plain. I mix

powdered cocoa with raw milk, raw cream, and raw egg yolks and it

tastes great

I've also noticed that zucchini squash sometimes has a slight bitter

flavor, but enough butter vanquishes it

I never have liked liquorice or beets. I couldn't stand onions in any

form as a child, but I like them as a flavor enhancer now. I like

liver and onions, though I wouldn't eat either one by itself. Onions

have a slight bitter tang to me.

Maybe a little bit of bitterness is not a bad thing - one of the

spices of life

But maybe it's those spices that kill us?

[Guest guest]

--- carolyn_graff <zgraff@...> wrote:

> I'm not fond of veggies either so I no longer eat them. I can get

> the nutrients from other foods. No one respected my wishes when I

> stopped eating cakes, pies, cookies, etc. but eventually they

> stopped trying to get me to eat some. Maybe tell others you are

> allergic to vegetables. LOL

Carolyn, great idea! I should tell people I'm allergic to sweets

> I sometimes tell others that I ate SO many veggies when I was a

> vegan that I'm sick of them. Now, instead of eating a plain baked

> potato with just salt on it, I eat the butter, sour cream and cheese

> by itself and skip the potato. LOL

Yeah, that's a good one too! Waiter, I'd like a loaded baked potato

with butter, sour cream, and bacon bits, but hold the potato

> I tell others that I'm making up for all the dry baked potatoes I

> ate or all the plain cooked veggies I ate.

I have to admit to eating baked potatoes plain or with " healthy "

margarine in my low fat diet days - YUCK!!!

So, I can say the same thing

Here's what I had for dinner last night:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oz4caster/2372481422/

[Guest guest]

,

> I think you're right that you shouldn't eat foods that taste bitter.

> Bitter, rancid, and putrid tastes have evolved to protect us from

> potentially harmful foods.

A lot of people *like* bitter tastes. It might be a matter of how

bitter the taste is. People who have genes for super-tasting don't

like bitter tastes, and people who don't do, is my understanding, or

something like that (perhaps more nuanced). I read that the genes for

sensitivity to bitterness are much more common where cruciferous

vegetables and related vegetables are the common bitter taste, and

much less common where coffee is. One author suggested populations

evolved on the one hand to protect themselves from the goitrogenic

effects of too many crucifers and on the other hand to get the extra

niacin from coffee. Although I'm sure the evidence could be read in a

lot of different ways.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I've read articles about children's reluctance to eat vegetables, and

vegetable toxins- but didn't save the links. We just put stuff on their

plate, and let them eat whatever suits. Interestingly, our daughter with

the higher lead poisoning has always loved sulfurous vegetables, even

brussels sprouts. I know that sulfur is involved in the detox pathways,

and have always hypothesized that she self-selects in that regard.

I have been having conversations with my friend who abhors cilantro about

whether his body is reacting to its ostensible healing or chelating

abilites.

Interesting thread.

Desh

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> A lot of people *like* bitter tastes. It might be a matter of how

> bitter the taste is. People who have genes for super-tasting don't

> like bitter tastes, and people who don't do, is my understanding, or

> something like that (perhaps more nuanced). I read that the genes

> for sensitivity to bitterness are much more common where cruciferous

> vegetables and related vegetables are the common bitter taste, and

> much less common where coffee is. One author suggested populations

> evolved on the one hand to protect themselves from the goitrogenic

> effects of too many crucifers and on the other hand to get the extra

> niacin from coffee. Although I'm sure the evidence could be read in

> a lot of different ways.

yeah, I should have said I believe you shouldn't eat foods that

don't *taste good*. To me that's a sign that the body is rejecting a

particular food. Likewise for foods that don't make you feel well.

It's just the converse that I think doesn't work. I don't think we

can rely on *good taste* to tell us when a food is good for our

health. For example, I like the taste of commercial mayonnaise, but I

won't eat it any more because I know it's loaded with PUFA and HFCS

and no telling what other bad stuff. Same is true for most commercial

salad dressings.

Plain broccoli is OK to my taste, but I like it much better with lots

of butter or cheese sauce. I suspect there might be some benefit to

eating vegetables with butter or cheese, more than just better

nutrient absorption. Maybe it helps the body to better deal with the

toxins in the vegetables? Just a guess on my part

[Guest guest]

> Connie and ,

>

> I think you're right that you shouldn't eat foods that taste

bitter.

....

> But if you have to sweeten a food to make it taste good, I wouldn't

> eat it.

Interesting you should say that. I, like most supertasters, to gag

the veggies down, dress them with one or all of: sweet, fat, salt.

Take collard greens for example; there's a reason they're boiled in

salt water with bacon and sugar in the South. Or, plain steamed

broccoli, yuk; broccoli salad with raisins, mayo, and bacon bits, ok!

I used to have a disregulated sweet tooth but I fixed that and I

still hate veggies. But, is that a leftover thing from having been

raised on too many refined sweets and starches, or something I should

respect. Supertasters as a group have more colon cancer - but

personally I think without knowing more about the group they are like

my ish friend Bobby who just ate beer, meat, and refined bread.

Connie

[Guest guest]

--- cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> Take collard greens for example; there's a reason

> they're boiled in

> salt water with bacon and sugar in the South.

Yes, my grandmother, in Tennessee, used to make

collard greens and hamhock. I remember we used to put

vinegar on it in the end.

The question is, are we enhancing something that is

good by doing this or disguising something bad

(something we shouldn't be eating) when we do this?

-

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

-WB Yeats

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

--- De Bell-Frantz <deshabell@...> wrote:

> I have been having conversations with my friend who

> abhors cilantro about

> whether his body is reacting to its ostensible

> healing or chelating

> abilites.

This is another interesting avenue to look at. Do we

dislike a food because it is actually healing us in

some way?

For example, I do Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting.

There is one famous powerlifter who competed in the

unlimited class (meaning, they could be as heavy as

they liked). Now for those in the unlimited class, it

is advantageous to put on as much weight as possible.

So a lot of these guys eat any kind of junk, just to

put on weight. I am talking about junk like

Pop-tarts, Chicken McNuggets, etc.

Well, this famous powerlifter decided one day he

wanted to start eating " clean " food. He got sick as a

dog when he started eating clean....In fact, he slowed

down the transition because of this. He was just

getting sick off of clean food. Of course, he

eventually made the transition.

A rather extreme example to make the point that we may

dislike foods that are good for us (as if things

weren't confusing enough!!!) How to tell the

difference?

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[Guest guest]

--- Seay <entheogens@...> wrote:

> Yes, my grandmother, in Tennessee, used to make

> collard greens and hamhock. I remember we used to put

> vinegar on it in the end.

>

> The question is, are we enhancing something that is

> good by doing this or disguising something bad

> (something we shouldn't be eating) when we do this?

Or making something bad into something good?

[Guest guest]

,

> yeah, I should have said I believe you shouldn't eat foods that

> don't *taste good*. To me that's a sign that the body is rejecting a

> particular food.

Maybe, or maybe it is programmed to react a certain way to certain

tastes based on the milieu of available foods ancestrally. I guess it

depends to what degree regulation of taste is short-term and to what

extent it is genetically/irreversibly programmed. In other words,

maybe your ancestors were exposed to many toxic foods with a

particular flavor, and maybe now you're exposed to many healthy foods

with that flavor but you have the genes to reject it. Not saying

that's more probable than your body sensing whether the food is good

or bad for it, but it is a confounding possiblity.

> It's just the converse that I think doesn't work. I don't think we

> can rely on *good taste* to tell us when a food is good for our

> health. For example, I like the taste of commercial mayonnaise, but I

> won't eat it any more because I know it's loaded with PUFA and HFCS

> and no telling what other bad stuff. Same is true for most commercial

> salad dressings.

You could modify the idea by excluding commercially prepared foods.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> In other words, maybe your ancestors were exposed to many toxic

> foods with a particular flavor, and maybe now you're exposed to many

> healthy foods with that flavor but you have the genes to reject it.

> Not saying that's more probable than your body sensing whether the

> food is good or bad for it, but it is a confounding possibility.

I'd rather be safe than sorry, if the food tastes bad. There's

plenty of good tasting healthy foods so as not to have to eat bad

tasting foods, so why take a chance? It might only be a problem if

everything tastes bad. Then you have to choose your poison. But we

kind of have to do than anyway

At least, I haven't heard of a *diet* that confers eternal life

--- wrote:

> > It's just the converse that I think doesn't work. I don't think we

> > can rely on *good taste* to tell us when a food is good for our

> > health. For example, I like the taste of commercial mayonnaise,

> > but I won't eat it any more because I know it's loaded with PUFA

> > and HFCS and no telling what other bad stuff. Same is true for

> > most commercial salad dressings.

>

> You could modify the idea by excluding commercially prepared foods.

Yes, and I think that's a good idea for health. But you still have to

be careful about the foods you eat. Another example is nuts. I like

nuts and could easily eat several ounces a day. But because of the

high PUFA I don't think that's a good idea. It only takes a few

ounces of many nuts to get you over the WAPF recommended 4% of

calories per day from PUFA. For example, 2 oz of almonds has 337

calories and 65 of those calories are omega-6 PUFA. If my daily

calorie intake is 2,500, then 4% is 100 calories. That doesn't leave

much room for other foods to push the total daily PUFA over 4%. So, I

think it's best to eat nuts in small amounts and just once in a while.

[Guest guest]

,

> I'd rather be safe than sorry, if the food tastes bad. There's

> plenty of good tasting healthy foods so as not to have to eat bad

> tasting foods, so why take a chance? It might only be a problem if

> everything tastes bad. Then you have to choose your poison. But we

> kind of have to do than anyway

Good point.

> At least, I haven't heard of a *diet* that confers eternal life

Especially not before you die.

> Yes, and I think that's a good idea for health. But you still have to

> be careful about the foods you eat. Another example is nuts. I like

> nuts and could easily eat several ounces a day. But because of the

> high PUFA I don't think that's a good idea. It only takes a few

> ounces of many nuts to get you over the WAPF recommended 4% of

> calories per day from PUFA. For example, 2 oz of almonds has 337

> calories and 65 of those calories are omega-6 PUFA. If my daily

> calorie intake is 2,500, then 4% is 100 calories. That doesn't leave

> much room for other foods to push the total daily PUFA over 4%. So, I

> think it's best to eat nuts in small amounts and just once in a while.

Yeah, not only that, but you'd probably do well to keep PUFA lower

than 4% anyway. Macamia nuts are not bad for PUFA though.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> > If so, that goes a long way (perhaps) towards

> > explaining morning sickness and, for that matter, why

> > kids often HATE brocolli, onions, many spices and

> > other vegetables like these that tend to have more

> > toxins than others.

> >

> > So, it is worth considering that when your kid refuses

> > to " EAT HIS/HER VEGETABLES " that you respect the kid's

> > wishes.

> >

> >

>

> What do you think changes with adulthood?

> I hate most veggies (supertaster, so many are bitter) but no one

> respects my wishes, it seems.

>

> Connie

Unless they are doused with fat, I don't really like vegetables

either, although I have no idea if I am a supertaster. But I have

noticed that I don't mind high brix vegetables at all plain, but still

prefer them with lots of fat and/or spices.

I was at a seminar once where salad was the main meal but after

dousing my salad with loads of garlic, ginger, and cayenne, it turned

out to be quite tasty, once I stopped sweating :-)

--

" Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine

messianic force, to be a sort of policeman of the whole world... "

- Luther King Jr.

" The individual who can do something that the world wants will, in the

end, make his way regardless of race. "

- Booker T. Washington (1856–1915)

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Seay <entheogens@...> wrote:

> So, the problem is sorting out the real instinct from

> the conceptual roadblocks. That's USUALLY not very

> black and white.

>

> Interesting stuff to contemplate.

>

> -

Yes it is. I know that many foods I hated as a kid I have grown to

like as an adult largely because I kept trying them and eventually got

over my mental blocks that were keeping me from actually enjoying the

food. Raw and rare beef, oysters on the half shell, liver pate,

sardines, etc. all fit into the " wow how can anyone eat that stuff! "

category when I was younger. So did scotch and cigars and thankfully I

got over that too <weg>

--

" Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine

messianic force, to be a sort of policeman of the whole world... "

- Luther King Jr.

" The individual who can do something that the world wants will, in the

end, make his way regardless of race. "

- Booker T. Washington (1856–1915)

[Guest guest]

,

> Our perception of foods by sight is heavily influenced by our family

> and peers. The Masai are raised this way, so it is normal for them.

> Same for eating offal or bugs. Social constraints may be limiting.

> Religious constraints may also be limiting.

The funny thing is that I ate a lot of foods as a kid that most people

would have found very disgusting. Our family left no part of the pig

untouched as an example, eating the ears, tail, jaws, intestines,

feet, etc. We thought nothing of it. But rare meat.....ewwwwww, LOL!

--

" Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine

messianic force, to be a sort of policeman of the whole world... "

- Luther King Jr.

" The individual who can do something that the world wants will, in the

end, make his way regardless of race. "

- Booker T. Washington (1856–1915)

[Guest guest]

Connie,

> Interesting you should say that. I, like most supertasters, to gag

> the veggies down, dress them with one or all of: sweet, fat, salt.

> Take collard greens for example; there's a reason they're boiled in

> salt water with bacon and sugar in the South.

There is usually a ham hock thrown in. It was the best part :-)

> I think without knowing more about the group they are like

> my ish friend Bobby who just ate beer, meat, and refined bread.

Sounds like a man after my own heart, as long as the bread serves as a

carrier for LOADS of fat.

--

" Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine

messianic force, to be a sort of policeman of the whole world... "

- Luther King Jr.

" The individual who can do something that the world wants will, in the

end, make his way regardless of race. "

- Booker T. Washington (1856–1915)

[Guest guest]

> But maybe it's those spices that kill us?

>

>

>

Many spices, in moderation, are excellent health adjuncts to a nutritious diet.

--

" Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine

messianic force, to be a sort of policeman of the whole world... "

- Luther King Jr.

" The individual who can do something that the world wants will, in the

end, make his way regardless of race. "

- Booker T. Washington (1856–1915)