Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 - > Any thoughts? Drink less beer if you want to be more healthy? Not what you were looking for, I know. <g> But I'd imagine unpleasant chemicals would make it into the final brew, so if you're going to drink beer (and I certainly understand the appeal!) try to stick to organic and unpasteurized. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 --- Idol <Idol@...> wrote: > Drink less beer if you want to be more healthy? > Not what you were looking for, I know. <g> , I do drink less beer, so I must be more healthy I only drink a bottle or two every week or two and sometimes go a month or two between drinks. This is less than I used to drink in college > But I'd imagine unpleasant chemicals would make it into the final brew, > so if you're going to drink beer (and I certainly understand the > appeal!) try to stick to organic and unpasteurized. I'm curious if anyone has seen any actual measurements of pesticide or pesticide break-down products in beer/ale/wine. I'm also curious what our resident slethnobotanist has to say about beer and health as well as buying organic beer, if he's out there somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 I've been trying to keep the carbs low of late, and so haven't been indulging in good beer, which I absolutely love in the summer....well, San Francisco doesn't really have a summer, but you know what I mean. My fantasy is that the Belgian Trappist ales will give me eternal life. If my experience is that this is untrue, I'll probably switch to single malt scotch. > I normally try to buy organic products but was wondering if pesticides > or their residuals may make it through the brewing process in > significant quantities of concern? This is the only mycotoxin that I > will occasionally indulge for pleasure, but I'm not sure if it's worth > the trouble to pay for organic beer and ale. I sampled some good pale > ales and ales on my recent visit to Portland, but I don't think they > were organic. At the moment, I'm indulging in a Lamar Street organic > pale ale that I got on sale at WF for $5.99 a six pack, after my walk > on a beautiful day today > > Any thoughts? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 > > - > > > Any thoughts? > > Drink less beer if you want to be more healthy? > > Not what you were looking for, I know. <g> But I'd imagine > unpleasant chemicals would make it into the final brew, so if you're > going to drink beer (and I certainly understand the appeal!) try to > stick to organic and unpasteurized. > > - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 > > I normally try to buy organic products but was wondering if pesticides > or their residuals may make it through the brewing process in > significant quantities of concern? This is the only mycotoxin that I > will occasionally indulge for pleasure, but I'm not sure if it's worth > the trouble to pay for organic beer and ale. I sampled some good pale > ales and ales on my recent visit to Portland, but I don't think they > were organic. At the moment, I'm indulging in a Lamar Street organic > pale ale that I got on sale at WF for $5.99 a six pack, after my walk > on a beautiful day today > > Any thoughts? > > > , I am no expert in nutrition or chemistry, but I am very knowledgeable about brewing. I have no idea what non-organic ingredients my be present in a store bought beer. How ever if you are interested in making and drinking organic beer here are some resources. http://www.breworganic.com/ http://www.theorganicreport.com/pages/605_organic_beer.cfm Cheers, The best organic beer I have tasted is Green Lakes, brewed by Decheutes Brewery in Bend Oregon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 --- Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote: > I've been trying to keep the carbs low of late, and so haven't been > indulging in good beer, which I absolutely love in the summer.... > well, San Francisco doesn't really have a summer, but you know > what I mean. Gene, low-carb is the main reason I don't indulge more often. > My fantasy is that the Belgian Trappist ales will give me eternal > life. Only if it's organic, according to <g> > If my experience is that this is untrue, I'll probably switch to > single malt scotch. It might be too late then, unless you believe in heaven In Portland, the first night I made it to Kell's Irish pub and had a Mt Hood amber ale and a Guinness ale. They were both heavenly. It looked like most of the people in there came straight from Ireland. The next night I had an excellent " seafood stew " at Veritable Quandary, along with another heavenly local pale ale (I forget the name). The following night I supped at McCormick and Schmidt's for oysters and tried a Full Sail pale ale. It was all good. I think the people living in Portland must already be in heaven Despite indulging more than usual, I managed not to gain any weight. It must be a miracle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 I forget if it's organic, but try some of the stuff from Stone Brewery...really got into them last year. Damn, it's actually hot in SF today...I'm just so tempted. > --- Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote: > > I've been trying to keep the carbs low of late, and so haven't been > > indulging in good beer, which I absolutely love in the summer.... > > well, San Francisco doesn't really have a summer, but you know > > what I mean. > > Gene, low-carb is the main reason I don't indulge more often. > > > My fantasy is that the Belgian Trappist ales will give me eternal > > life. > > Only if it's organic, according to <g> > > > If my experience is that this is untrue, I'll probably switch to > > single malt scotch. > > It might be too late then, unless you believe in heaven > > > In Portland, the first night I made it to Kell's Irish pub and had a > Mt Hood amber ale and a Guinness ale. They were both heavenly. It > looked like most of the people in there came straight from Ireland. > The next night I had an excellent " seafood stew " at Veritable > Quandary, along with another heavenly local pale ale (I forget the > name). The following night I supped at McCormick and Schmidt's for > oysters and tried a Full Sail pale ale. It was all good. I think the > people living in Portland must already be in heaven > > Despite indulging more than usual, I managed not to gain any weight. > It must be a miracle! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 --- Idol wrote: > > Drink less beer if you want to be more healthy? > > Not what you were looking for, I know. <g> But I'd imagine > > unpleasant chemicals would make it into the final brew, so if > > you're going to drink beer (and I certainly understand the > > appeal!) try to stick to organic and unpasteurized. > --- jason gazeley <jason.gazeley@...> wrote: > Hey . This sounds like an opinion. , you're right, it's an opinion, but it's a well respected opinion by most on this list > Can you tell me one health problem that is not acute in any > population that is caused by light or moderate drinking? Not me. I subscribe to Masterjohn's hypothesis that a little toxin once in a while is probably good to stimulate the immune system. > Can you explain why every traditional culture consumed fermented > beverages save a few (native American, Eskimo, Aboriginal > Australian.)? Yes, it adds a little spice to life. Even mesoamericans had pulque: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulque > Can you tell me why the WAPF Shopping Guide recommends unpasteurized > beers like Fat Tire and Chimay? Isn't that the traditional way to drink beer? I suspect it has more beneficial enzymes that way and perhaps more vitamins as well. > Do you know the only reason our water supply is safe to drink is due > to Processing (Charcoal filtration, Reverse Osmosis)? Yes, I use RO to get out the chlorine and fluoride they put in I suspect that a truly good beer should be made with clean water. > Do you know that Jefferson and lin brewed and > drank beer as did most Americans of their time because the water > supply was not safe? No, I hadn't heard about Jefferson and lin brewing their own, but I have read that beer and wine were popular historically in the old world because of unsafe water. > Did you know that no known pathogen can survive in beer? Then why do they pasteurize beer? > In America we are extremists. we think if a lot of beer is bad for > us then none must be best. If I apply that logic to food I could say > if an entire stick of butter every night is bad for me than none is > best, or if a little cod liver oil is good for me than a whole > bottle is best. Quite right! I prefer balance and variety. > Everyone on this board should know that nutrition is not that > simple. I think most who have been on this list a while would agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Speaking as one who lives in Portland - it makes it hard to leave town. Other places just don't have the good stuff Glad you liked Kells. I do too Connie > In Portland, the first night I made it to Kell's Irish pub and had a > Mt Hood amber ale and a Guinness ale. They were both heavenly. It > looked like most of the people in there came straight from Ireland. > The next night I had an excellent " seafood stew " at Veritable > Quandary, along with another heavenly local pale ale (I forget the > name). The following night I supped at McCormick and Schmidt's for > oysters and tried a Full Sail pale ale. It was all good. I think the > people living in Portland must already be in heaven > > Despite indulging more than usual, I managed not to gain any weight. > It must be a miracle! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 --- jason gazeley <jason.gazeley@...> wrote: > I am no expert in nutrition or chemistry, but I am very knowledgeable > about brewing. I have no idea what non-organic ingredients my be > present in a store bought beer. How ever if you are interested in > making and drinking organic beer here are some resources. > > http://www.breworganic.com/ > > http://www.theorganicreport.com/pages/605_organic_beer.cfm > > The best organic beer I have tasted is Green Lakes, brewed by > Decheutes Brewery in Bend Oregon. , thanks for the links. I'm probably too lazy to ever make my own ale, but it's interesting to learn about it. I think I'll stick to the organic beers as much as possible after reading that second article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 - > Can you tell me one health > problem that is not acute in any population that is caused by light or > moderate drinking? A health problem that is NOT acute that is caused by drinking? I guess loss of electrolytes caused by excess urination. <g> > Can you explain why every traditional culture > consumed fermented beverages save a few (native American, Eskimo, > Aboriginal Australian.)? That's a pretty major " few " , but more to the point, modern beer doesn't resemble traditional fermented beverages. For one, beer is now made with hops (a very recent innovation) in order to dramatically increase the alcohol content. > Can you tell me why the WAPF Shopping Guide > recommends unpasteurized beers like Fat Tire and Chimay? I'd guess as a compromise in recognition of the fact that many people like beer and if the foundation don't recommend some good beers, people will more likely drink bad ones. Elsewhere, on the WAPF site and, IIRC, in _Nourishing Traditions_, Sally (and ?) specifically criticize alcoholic drinks and state that traditional fermented drinks contained at most very small amounts of alcohol. > Do you know > the only reason our water supply is safe to drink is due to Processing > (Charcoal filtration, Reverse Osmosis)? I have no idea what you're even referring to here. > Do you know that > Jefferson and lin brewed and drank beer as did most > Americans of their time because the water supply was not safe? Yes, and did you know that in general, their health was absolutely atrocious and their teeth rotten? The founding fathers are no models of robust constitution to hold up as proof that beer is good. > Did you > know that no known pathogen can survive in beer? Did you even think to > give one reason that drinking less beer would make him more > healthy? No, but that wasn't really the topic of conversation, and it's also not exactly a secret that beer has its downsides. (And I say that as someone who wishes that beer were health food so that I could drink it regularly.) Here, however, just to satisfy the American Beer Council, I mean you, are four quick ones. The high carb content of beer contributes to insulin resistance and adiposity. The high phytoestrogen content of beer (particularly from the hops) contributes to hormone system malfunctions. The carbs in beer, coming as they do from grains and other problem foods, can also cause or contribute to various intestinal diseases such as dysbiosis, celiac, colitis, and so on. And beer's alcohol content can contribute to fatty liver, weight gain, drunkenness, harmful or fatal accident, brain damage, and a variety of other problems. Does this mean nobody should ever drink any beer? No. But I stand by my only half tongue in cheek remark to , with whom I'm actually halfway well acquainted on this list and who can, I think, withstand the occasional light joke, perhaps because he hasn't consumed too much beer before posting. > Symptoms Fetal Alcohol Syndrome don't even show up in babies > until the bothers drink 3 DRINKS EVERY NIGHT. Actually, I don't believe that's true, but as I overslept due to an extremist excess of exercise yesterday given my current level of fitness, and as I have to rush out and exercise a lot more today in a few minutes because if a little too much is good for me way WAY too much must be even better, I don't have time to dig up any citations right at the moment. > If you look into the > matter low to moderate alcohol consumption is good for you. at the > very least it reduces tension in the heart and arteries, regardless of > the kind of alcohol you choose to drink. The benefits of wine and beer > are too numerous to get into here, but if you are seriously interested > in improving your health I will dig up some of the research for you. Actually, the evidence is somewhat conflicting, and one school of thought holds that since alcohol is an extremely effective solvent and since we're all so awash in pesticides, pollutants and other toxins, the benefits of small amounts of alcohol, such as they are, come from dissolving and washing away those toxins. If that's true (and AFAIK it's just speculative at this point) then people who eat organic, grass-fed food, limit their carbs, drastically limit their PUFA, and so on, are likely to benefit less from alcohol, in which case the balance of harm vs gain might shift towards harm. All speculation, admittedly, but while I quite enjoy a good beer and indulge every now and again, I think there's a much better case to be made for wine. > My point is one should not give advice in areas one is not educated > in. You gave no reasons to drink less beer. All you gave was an > opinion. And perhaps you shouldn't spring in and try to turn a conversation personal by making characterizations of people you know nothing about. The fact that my post included no facts is not an adequate basis for concluding that I'm not in possession of any facts. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 I have read 4-6 drinks a day, most days, is the figure for fetal alcohol syndrome- and it usually occurs in later, multiparious pregnancies rather than the first. America has created great hyperbole with the fetal alcohol syndrome bit- it's tied into our national madonna-whore complex. Of course there are variations in effects- a woman with a healthier liver, genetic ability to handle more alcohol, etc. will have a different pregancy outcome than one who has drank longer or had more pregnancies without nutrition. You can find conflicting studies I'm sure. As for non-binge drinking during pregnancy, many European cultures continue to have wine with dinner throughout their pregnancies, with better pregnancy outcomes than the US, where we gasp if we see an enciente have a third of a glass of chardonnay. I am a drinker, and former bartender in some busy bars- so in no way down on alcohol. I will say that I have read recently about alcohol wasting minerals from the body, particularly magnesium- so even social drinkers should supplement one way or another. Many beers have decent B-vitamin contents, so they aren't nutritional duds. Here lately we just make our own hard kefir ciders, though the most recent water kefir culture I've aquired creates too many esters. Sometime we'll move into healing beers. IIRC as far as anthropology goes, many cultures made small beer for regular consuption (less alcohol) and stronger beers for celebrations. In fact, at a lecture by a noted anthropologist I recall him saying that there has never been a human society without beer or its metaphorical equivalent- some ritualized intoxicant. The variety of ritualized intoxicants goes from peyote in high religious ceremony, to weak palm wine at African celebrations, to relaxing with kava on a Pacific island. Marijuana is naturally occuring on all continents except Antarctica- Roman soldiers burned bonfires of it. So I'm not quite sure where Fallon and Enig get the idea that everyone was just sipping, though of course I agree that modern binge drinking is not a traditional pastime. Desh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 Wow, that is so blatantly wrong it is almost funny! Hops have absolutely *nothing* to do with alcohol content! They are a flavoring agent that doubles as a preservative and that is it!! If anything, having more hops in beer allows the beer to be *less* alcoholic because it keeps longer. What makes modern beers more alcoholic is simple: concentrated sugars and improved mashing techniques. There are two main types of recipes in brewing: " all grain " and " extract " . All grain refers to a beer where all the sugars come from mashing. Mashing is the process in which sugars are extracted directly from the malted grain - depending the temperature consistency and the experience of the masher, this yield can range quite a bit. As a result these recipes are harder to keep consistent so a good number of breweries use the extract style which is based on dry or liquid barley malt extract (the result of machinery controlled mashing) and they add things like High Fructose Corn Syrup, Corn Syrup, Rice Syrup, etc to increase the sugar concentration. So, hops have nothing to do with the increased alcohol % in modern beers: it is the addition of concentrated sugars and the ability to get the most sugar possible out of the malt. -Lana > > That's a pretty major " few " , but more to the point, modern beer > doesn't resemble traditional fermented beverages. For one, beer is > now made with hops (a very recent innovation) in order to dramatically > increase the alcohol content. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 The story I read was that during the Temperance movement where the pious (to use the term loosly) were trying to get the people to drink less they decided a sleepy drunk was the best kind and managed to get a ruling passed in England that all beer must have hops as the flavoring agent, not juniper or any of the other popular ones of the time, and there were many. > > Wow, that is so blatantly wrong it is almost funny! > > Hops have absolutely *nothing* to do with alcohol content! They are a > flavoring agent that doubles as a preservative and that is it!! If > anything, having more hops in beer allows the beer to be *less* alcoholic > because it keeps longer. > > What makes modern beers more alcoholic is simple: concentrated sugars and > improved mashing techniques. > > There are two main types of recipes in brewing: " all grain " and " extract " . > All grain refers to a beer where all the sugars come from mashing. Mashing > is the process in which sugars are extracted directly from the malted grain > - depending the temperature consistency and the experience of the masher, > this yield can range quite a bit. As a result these recipes are harder to > keep consistent so a good number of breweries use the extract style which is > based on dry or liquid barley malt extract (the result of machinery > controlled mashing) and they add things like High Fructose Corn Syrup, Corn > Syrup, Rice Syrup, etc to increase the sugar concentration. > > So, hops have nothing to do with the increased alcohol % in modern beers: it > is the addition of concentrated sugars and the ability to get the most sugar > possible out of the malt. > > -Lana > > > > > > That's a pretty major " few " , but more to the point, modern beer > > doesn't resemble traditional fermented beverages. For one, beer is > > now made with hops (a very recent innovation) in order to dramatically > > increase the alcohol content. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 , This applies to wine, which is a slightly different process (in that the grapes are not usually processed prior to fermentation, whereas in beer there is a soaking/sprouting/kilning process executed on the grain prior to mashing and fermentation): http://www.pan-europe.info/Pictures/PDFs/Press%20Release,%20Notes%20 & %20Contacts\ ..pdf Full results table here: http://www.pan-europe.info/Pictures/PDFs/Full%20Results.pdf " 100% of conventional wines included in the analysis were found to contain pesticides, with one bottle containing 10 different pesticides. On average each wine sample contained over four pesticides. The analysis revealed 24 different pesticide contaminants, including five classified as being carcinogenic, mutagenic, reprotoxic or endocrine disrupting by the European Union. " " Of the six bottles of organic wine tested, five contained no detectable pesticide residues. These results provide a clear proof of principle that pesticide free wine production is possible where no synthetic pesticides are applied to grapes. One sample contained a low concentration of pyrimethanil, a possible carcinogen. The presence of pesticide residues in organic wines is a rare but well documented phenomenon. A 2004 study published by FiBL, the world's leading research centre for organic agriculture, suggests that small organic wine producers located in areas of intensive conventional grape production may suffer occasional contamination due to the drift of pesticides from neighbouring plots affecting front-line organic vines. " I would _guess_ that the pesticide residues in beer would be slightly less than in wine due to the malting process, especially if the water is changed several times during malting. -Lana On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 5:19 PM, <oz4caster@...> wrote: > I normally try to buy organic products but was wondering if pesticides > or their residuals may make it through the brewing process in > significant quantities of concern? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 , > I normally try to buy organic products but was wondering if pesticides > or their residuals may make it through the brewing process in > significant quantities of concern? This is the only mycotoxin that I > will occasionally indulge for pleasure, but I'm not sure if it's worth > the trouble to pay for organic beer and ale. I sampled some good pale > ales and ales on my recent visit to Portland, but I don't think they > were organic. At the moment, I'm indulging in a Lamar Street organic > pale ale that I got on sale at WF for $5.99 a six pack, after my walk > on a beautiful day today > > Any thoughts? Unless you know your source, I would stick with microbrews. There are some imported beers that are pretty good as well. Otherwise there are all manner of things that could be used in making beer. Microbrews are usually pretty clean and unpasteurized, even if they are not labeled as such. The proprietors tend to be fanatical about this kind of stuff and are not willing to poison their brew. If you are unsure about a particular brand just ask via the contact info on the packaging. -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 , > , I do drink less beer, so I must be more healthy > > I only drink a bottle or two every week or two and sometimes go a > month or two between drinks. This is less than I used to drink in > college Well given that logic my health must be piss poor, since I drink beer nearly every day except for Wednesdays and Fridays :-) And if I am not drinking beer, it is because I am drinking wine. And if I am not drinking wine, it is because I am drinking scotch. And if I am not drinking scotch, it is because I decided to make myself a martini, which I then usually follow with beer. From my vantage point, while alcoholic beverages have some advantages all by their lonesome, the ultimate determination of their benefits in your diet are determined by the makeup of your diet. Such IMO will go a long way to determining whether alcohol is a net positive or a health detractor. There is also the question of what exactly makes up a healthy lifestyle. I bet a person who enjoys good company, good food and good beer on a regular basis will probably be more healthy than the person who obsesses about every little thing in his/her diet they don't think is quite right. There is a dynamic to health that goes beyond nutrition and is not easily measured but is apparent to those who have eyes to see. > > But I'd imagine unpleasant chemicals would make it into the final brew, > > so if you're going to drink beer (and I certainly understand the > > appeal!) try to stick to organic and unpasteurized. > > I'm curious if anyone has seen any actual measurements of pesticide or > pesticide break-down products in beer/ale/wine. I'm also curious what > our resident slethnobotanist has to say about beer and health as well > as buying organic beer, if he's out there somewhere. LOL! Even though I'm not a regular like I once was, and liable to disappear in the middle of a discussion for reasons that have nothing to do with anyone on the list, I still hang around. I don't have any actual measurements, but I have seen some pretty nasty looking lists of things that can be added to beer and wine, even discounting for chemicals that are a by-product of the brewing process. -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 , > Can you explain why every traditional culture > consumed fermented beverages save a few (native American, Eskimo, > Aboriginal Australian.)? Not true. The Eskimos drank raw spirits and I believe Native Americans had a fermented alcoholic drink as well. I don't know about the Aboriginal Australians but the truth of the matter is that nearly every culture studied or observed on this planet had some kind of potentially intoxicating brew as part of their lifestyle. And the arguments that secular fundamentalists like to make about the small amount of alcohol in the brews of older cultures is just a bunch of hooey. The brews could and would make people *drunk* regardless of their alcoholic content and people often drank them for these intoxicating effects. Even animals have been known to knock fruit from a tree to the ground and let it rot and then eat it so they could get....drunk! > In America we are extremists. we think if allot of beer is bad for us > than none must be best. Yes it is true that America has a distinct culture about alcohol (different from most of the world) that is ultimately not driven by health considerations although it operates under a medical veneer. > Symptoms Fetal Alcohol Syndrome don't even show up in babies > until the bothers drink 3 DRINKS EVERY NIGHT. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is way overplayed in this country, but bringing it up is sort of like talking about breastfeeding. It is difficult to have a rational discussion with those who feel like they are being attacked by others who have taken a contrary opinion. > My point is one should not give advice in areas one is not educated > in. You gave no reasons to drink less beer. All you gave was an opinion. Aren't we a little feisty today :-) -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck " Wine is a blessing that cheers the heart of both God and man " Judges 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 , > Gene, low-carb is the main reason I don't indulge more often. It has been my experience that when I am truly low carb, alcohol has no impact weight wise. > In Portland, the first night I made it to Kell's Irish pub and had a > Mt Hood amber ale and a Guinness ale. They were both heavenly. It > looked like most of the people in there came straight from Ireland. Same here for the Kell's in Seattle. Owned by native Irish who actually went to college with me. > The next night I had an excellent " seafood stew " at Veritable > Quandary, along with another heavenly local pale ale (I forget the > name). The following night I supped at McCormick and Schmidt's for > oysters and tried a Full Sail pale ale. It was all good. I think the > people living in Portland must already be in heaven LOL! The whole Pacific Northwest is heaven when it comes to beers! Some Native Nutrition trivia: The first time I met Suze we had beer and oysters at McCormick and Schmidt's in Seattle. At my first and only WAPF conference I vaguely remember searching very hard for a place that had brews like the ones here in the Pacific Northwest. Finally found a guy (bartender) who knew what I was talking about and told me I probably would not find a comparable selection that night. Both and Suze were along for that walk down 18th street in Washington DC. God forbid if memory serves me correctly we even ate some fast food pizza! > Despite indulging more than usual, I managed not to gain any weight. > It must be a miracle! Low carbs and alcohol works every time when I am on an extended vacation for keeping the weight down :-) -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:04 PM, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote: > Speaking as one who lives in Portland - it makes it hard to leave > town. Other places just don't have the good stuff > > Glad you liked Kells. I do too > Connie When is the last time you have been to Seattle? :-))) -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 > > Can you explain why every traditional culture > > consumed fermented beverages save a few (native American, Eskimo, > > Aboriginal Australian.)? > > That's a pretty major " few " , And to the best of my knowledge not accurate. > but more to the point, modern beer > doesn't resemble traditional fermented beverages. They resemble traditional fermented beverages in one sense, nearly every culture had a brew with the ability to intoxicate. > For one, beer is > now made with hops (a very recent innovation) in order to dramatically > increase the alcohol content. The use of hops might be recent in Europe (and even that goes back over a thousand years) but their use appears to be very ancient in other parts of the world. And my understanding of the brewing process is that hops actually allowed for beer of lower alcohol content because of its nature as a preservative, so less alcoholic beer could be made without worrying about spoilage. I would be interested in knowing where you got the hops increase alcohol information. > > Can you tell me why the WAPF Shopping Guide > > recommends unpasteurized beers like Fat Tire and Chimay? > > I'd guess as a compromise in recognition of the fact that many people > like beer and if the foundation don't recommend some good beers, > people will more likely drink bad ones. Elsewhere, on the WAPF site > and, IIRC, in _Nourishing Traditions_, Sally (and ?) specifically > criticize alcoholic drinks and state that traditional fermented drinks > contained at most very small amounts of alcohol. But that criticism doesn't address the use of these beverages (not just how they were made which actually varied from place to place) and I think is simply reflective of Sally's own bias against alcohol. > > Do you know that > > Jefferson and lin brewed and drank beer as did most > > Americans of their time because the water supply was not safe? > > Yes, and did you know that in general, their health was absolutely > atrocious and their teeth rotten? The founding fathers are no models > of robust constitution to hold up as proof that beer is good. Or that it is bad, given the confounding variables. > > Did you > > know that no known pathogen can survive in beer? Did you even think to > > give one reason that drinking less beer would make him more > > healthy? > > No, but that wasn't really the topic of conversation, and it's also > not exactly a secret that beer has its downsides. (And I say that as > someone who wishes that beer were health food so that I could drink it > regularly.) Here, however, just to satisfy the American Beer Council, > I mean you, are four quick ones. The high carb content of beer > contributes to insulin resistance and adiposity. Depends. Was this determined from studies where folks were eating a diet high in saturated fats and low in PUFA's? Even so, at what level of consumption does the above occur? > The high > phytoestrogen content of beer (particularly from the hops) contributes > to hormone system malfunctions. Depends. Was this determined from studies where folks were eating a diet high in saturated fats and low in PUFA's? Even so, at what level of consumption does the above occur? > The carbs in beer, coming as they do > from grains and other problem foods, can also cause or contribute to > various intestinal diseases such as dysbiosis, celiac, colitis, and so > on. Do you have any studies showing the particulars of beer's contribution to the above? > And beer's alcohol content can contribute to fatty liver, weight > gain, Depends. Was this determined from studies where folks were eating a diet high in saturated fats and low in PUFA's? > drunkenness, harmful or fatal accident, Yes but all that means is not to operate anything that might cause someone harm while drunk. And surely *any* alcoholic beverage can cause drunkenness. > brain damage, Depends. Was this determined from studies were folks were eating a diet high in saturated fats and low in PUFA's? Even so, at what level of consumption does the above occur? I mean does brain damage occur from moderate consumption or even less? > and a > variety of other problems. Are these problems inherent to alcohol consumption per se or an overuse of alcohol? > > If you look into the > > matter low to moderate alcohol consumption is good for you. at the > > very least it reduces tension in the heart and arteries, regardless of > > the kind of alcohol you choose to drink. The benefits of wine and beer > > are too numerous to get into here, but if you are seriously interested > > in improving your health I will dig up some of the research for you. > > Actually, the evidence is somewhat conflicting, and one school of > thought holds that since alcohol is an extremely effective solvent and > since we're all so awash in pesticides, pollutants and other toxins, > the benefits of small amounts of alcohol, such as they are, come from > dissolving and washing away those toxins. If that's true (and AFAIK > it's just speculative at this point) then people who eat organic, > grass-fed food, limit their carbs, drastically limit their PUFA, and > so on, are likely to benefit less from alcohol, in which case the > balance of harm vs gain might shift towards harm. > > All speculation, admittedly, Very speculative. -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 Okay, I admit I haven't read the entire discussion - skimmed it really - so if you touched on this, I missed it. How do cider and mead rate? Are they as unhealthy? > > , > > This applies to wine, which is a slightly different process (in that the > grapes are not usually processed prior to fermentation, whereas in beer > there is a soaking/sprouting/kilning process executed on the grain prior to > mashing and fermentation): > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Idol <Idol@...> wrote: > > Being a beer lover myself, I was indeed in heaven while in Seattle. > > Coincidentally, I made this very comment recently a guy in my local > > Ron > > Meetup group. Funny how it came up on the list shortly after I told > > a fellow > > East-coaster how heavenly the Pacific Northwest is when it comes to > > microbrews! > > Apparently the west coast has many advantages over the east. I keep > hearing how you practically can't sneeze without hitting a free tennis > court over there, whereas here it's a major trek to get to the one set > of courts on which I can play for more than an hour a day, and they're > always crowded, too. I hadn't really thought about it but now that you mention it, there are lots of free tennis courts in the Pacific Northwest. > Then again, while raw milk is legal in > California, the quality of the available raw milk is pretty abysmal in > my experience, whereas the stuff I get here is as good as any I've > seen or tasted anywhere. Remember when you look at a map that although it isn't demarked as such, once you get past Northern California you are actually entering another country <bsg> There is some pretty good raw milk available in the Pacific Northwest. -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 6:28 PM, <oz4caster@...> wrote: > --- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote: > > It has been my experience that when I am truly low carb, alcohol has > > no impact weight wise. > > , I did eat pretty low-carb otherwise and I don't like sweet > beers. I suspect that the ales I was drinking don't have much sugar, > so it looks like your observation works for me too. I should add that I tend to do a lot more walking when I'm out of town for a vacation or conference, so I think that has something to do with it as well. Also, when I'm away meat, veggies and loads of fat dominate, so my low carb does not involve any other kind of foods that might throw off that particular benefit. > The story might be different with sweet beers. Forgive me , but what is a sweet beer? > And reports he > had weight gain with wine consumption over the winter, but with the > holidays, maybe he didn't stay as low-carb as normal? ? Or maybe not as much exercise as he is doing now? > > At my first and only WAPF conference I vaguely remember searching > > very hard for a place that had brews like the ones here in the > > Pacific Northwest. Finally found a guy (bartender) who knew what I > > was talking about and told me I probably would not find a comparable > > selection that night. Both and Suze were along for that walk > > down 18th street in Washington DC. God forbid if memory serves me > > correctly we even ate some fast food pizza! > > Yeah, sometimes you have to take what you can get when it comes to > food and beer. At least you had good company To be perfectly honest I don't know why we stopped and got a slice of pizza. I'm sure I was the ringleader ;-)Other than that I think I ate pretty well. > Maybe the next WAPF conference in San Francisco will have some better > food and beer options nearby Yeah the WAPF stole my West Coast conference idea...ha! Too bad they aren't having it in Seattle. California doesn't allow for cigar smoking anywhere, unlike the WAPF conference I attended where I lit up right in the bar! I will have to search out some speakeasy. At least I will be able to drive and not have to deal with the whole flying nonsense. > I bet Gene knows all the good places to go! I wonder if Tom Cowan > likes beer or wine? Or maybe Prentice? Hey, this means Gene and could sit down over a glass of scotch together :-) There is another WAPF member/chapter leader that lives there now. Maybe she can give us the grand tour. -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 6:28 PM, <oz4caster@...> wrote: > --- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote: > > It has been my experience that when I am truly low carb, alcohol has > > no impact weight wise. > > , I did eat pretty low-carb otherwise and I don't like sweet > beers. I suspect that the ales I was drinking don't have much sugar, > so it looks like your observation works for me too. I should add that I tend to do a lot more walking when I'm out of town for a vacation or conference, so I think that has something to do with it as well. Also, when I'm away meat, veggies and loads of fat dominate, so my low carb does not involve any other kind of foods that might throw off that particular benefit. > The story might be different with sweet beers. Forgive me , but what is a sweet beer? > And reports he > had weight gain with wine consumption over the winter, but with the > holidays, maybe he didn't stay as low-carb as normal? ? Or maybe not as much exercise as he is doing now? > > At my first and only WAPF conference I vaguely remember searching > > very hard for a place that had brews like the ones here in the > > Pacific Northwest. Finally found a guy (bartender) who knew what I > > was talking about and told me I probably would not find a comparable > > selection that night. Both and Suze were along for that walk > > down 18th street in Washington DC. God forbid if memory serves me > > correctly we even ate some fast food pizza! > > Yeah, sometimes you have to take what you can get when it comes to > food and beer. At least you had good company To be perfectly honest I don't know why we stopped and got a slice of pizza. I'm sure I was the ringleader ;-)Other than that I think I ate pretty well. > Maybe the next WAPF conference in San Francisco will have some better > food and beer options nearby Yeah the WAPF stole my West Coast conference idea...ha! Too bad they aren't having it in Seattle. California doesn't allow for cigar smoking anywhere, unlike the WAPF conference I attended where I lit up right in the bar! I will have to search out some speakeasy. At least I will be able to drive and not have to deal with the whole flying nonsense. > I bet Gene knows all the good places to go! I wonder if Tom Cowan > likes beer or wine? Or maybe Prentice? Hey, this means Gene and could sit down over a glass of scotch together :-) There is another WAPF member/chapter leader that lives there now. Maybe she can give us the grand tour. -- " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. " Max Planck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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