organic beer and ale

[Guest guest]

> Well given that logic my health must be piss poor, since I drink beer

> nearly every day except for Wednesdays and Fridays :-) And if I am not

> drinking beer, it is because I am drinking wine. And if I am not

> drinking wine, it is because I am drinking scotch. And if I am not

> drinking scotch, it is because I decided to make myself a martini,

> which I then usually follow with beer.

Putting this in perspective, because I'm an Orthodox Christian my

alcohol consumption comes to a little less than half the year (as does

my animal food consumption). On most days where there is no fasting I

will partake of the fruit of the vine, though usually not on fasting

days it is allowed because I normally don't like to drink unless I am

consuming lots of animal fats.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

[Guest guest]

Jumping in,,,, Beer and Wine are fermented products.. I have a beer when I get

home from work, because I work in a OSHA accepable toxic environment,,, It rids

my throat of the " frog " . I also brew my own hard cider, mead, beer etc... I

do believe the moderate consumption of beer and/or wine is good for you, even

the pilgrims and puritans drank their share of fermented stuff...

~~PEACE~~

HippeeSandee

HippeeSandee's Endless Mountains Realm

" People don't stop dancing because they get too old

People get old because they stop dancing "

Re: Re: organic beer and ale

> Well given that logic my health must be piss poor, since I drink beer

> nearly every day except for Wednesdays and Fridays :-) And if I am not

> drinking beer, it is because I am drinking wine. And if I am not

> drinking wine, it is because I am drinking scotch. And if I am not

> drinking scotch, it is because I decided to make myself a martini,

> which I then usually follow with beer.

Putting this in perspective, because I'm an Orthodox Christian my

alcohol consumption comes to a little less than half the year (as does

my animal food consumption) . On most days where there is no fasting I

will partake of the fruit of the vine, though usually not on fasting

days it is allowed because I normally don't like to drink unless I am

consuming lots of animal fats.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

> There are sweet microbrews and foreign beers too, not just mass-market

> swill like Schlitz. A few months ago I was at a beer bar and my

> brother bought me what I think was a raspberry lambic, which is to say

> a gag beer, because it was disgustingly sweet and syrupy. I have no

> idea whether it was made with added sugar or just raspberries in some

> form or other, but yuck!

Okay now I know what you guys are talking about. I don't do swill and

lambic ales have never been my cup of tea. I don't think in America

the lambics are very big sellers.

I will admit though I recently had a 10 year old beer that was aged in

a port cask. The first time I had it I thought it was entirely too

sweet. The second time I had it it was quite nice and smooth, more

like a dessert wine than beer yet with a much stronger body. It had

the additional advantage of being very high alcohol (20%) and yet

simultaneously filling, which meant I could only drink one :-)

If you think port or sherry is too sweet you wouldn't like it.

Otherwise it was quite good.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

[Guest guest]

,

> You eat animal foods for less than half the year? Well, thank god I'm

> not an Orthodox Christian, then, because I'd be a physical wreck if I

> couldn't eat meat and other animal foods every day. <g>

LOL!

Roughly speaking about half the year Orthodox abstain from animal

foods (of course not every day). For most of the year it is just twice

a week. But that is not set in stone, if a person is physically unable

to do so then there is no requirement that they keep the fasts.

Plus, coconut products (SFA) are always allowed. Shellfish is always

allowed. And fish is often allowed during many of the fasting periods.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

[Guest guest]

Ciders and Meads are like wine in that the ingredients (apples in terms of

cider, honey in terms of mead) are not processed before production.

Here's a list of pesticide contamination of produce:

http://www.foodnews.org/fulldataset.php

As you can see apples have very high levels of contamination. It is my

understanding there are special exceptions to the pesticide allowances for

these crops (apparently, they " need " more than usual). Grapes are also

pretty high, but not as high as apples - with imported grapes having higher

pesticide levels than domestic grapes. Sometimes cider is made from pears,

which are lower than imported grapes but higher than domestic grapes.

Honey totally depends on what the bees are eating and I have heard they do

have some aversion to pesticides, however, non-organic honey can be produced

by using chemicals to get the bees out of the hive as well as to process and

refine it.

So it is hard to say: non-organic pure honey mead has the bonus of usually

not having added preservatives whereas non-organic wines and ciders

typically do. Domestic wines labeled " sulfite free " or " no added sulfites "

are likely better than non-organic ciders or imported wines with the same

claim since the pesticide levels are lower in domestic grapes. I personally

wouldn't drink anything that isn't marked " sulfite free " or " no added

sulfites " . So IMHO, if you're drinking non-organic, beer is probably

easiest to find. The EPA limit on ppm of pesticides is set much lower on

barley than on produce (provided the grower is following the limit) and it

is sulfite free naturally whereas sulfite free wines are rare and sulfite

free ciders even rarer. If you can find a pure honey mead (a lot of the

time meads are cut with fruits since fruits are cheaper than honey and it

makes mead ferment faster), that may be just as good (depending on the honey

they use).

If you really want to avoid pesticide residues, your best bet really is the

organic versions. Although it is important to be aware though that " made

with organic grapes " is a different claim from " organic wine " : the former

allows sulfites to be added while the latter doesn't. Organic wines have a

naturally occurring sulfite max of 20 ppm and wines can be labeled sulfite

free/no added sulfites if they are below 10 ppm. (

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm) I don't know if

the organic standards for cider are as strict in terms of sulfites. Oh, and

just as a warning: make sure you refrigerate leftover sulfite-free wine,

because if you don't you'll have a wonderfully tasty vinegar in about 2

days.

-Lana

PS: Hard Cider is very easy to make if you can get a hold of organic cider.

It takes 3 months to be drinkable. Extract based organic beers are pretty

easy too as Briess and several other companies now offer organic malt

extract, but they do require boiling to add the characteristic beer flavor

from the hops. Although the initial recipe is more trouble (and requires

more equipment), home brewed beer is ready to drink within 2 weeks as

opposed to 3 months. http://www.breworganic.com/ is a great supplier of

organic beer supplies. I've only ever made one mead since honey is a very

slow fermenter - and while the results were tasty, the cost of the honey and

the year I had to wait to drink it were both too rich for me.

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 7:30 PM, threehearts0o0 <threehearts0o0@...>

wrote:

> Okay, I admit I haven't read the entire discussion - skimmed it really

> - so if you touched on this, I missed it.

>

> How do cider and mead rate? Are they as unhealthy?

>

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > This applies to wine, which is a slightly different process (in that the

> > grapes are not usually processed prior to fermentation, whereas in beer

> > there is a soaking/sprouting/kilning process executed on the grain

> prior to

> > mashing and fermentation):

>

[Guest guest]

> There are sweet microbrews and foreign beers too, not just mass-market

> swill like Schlitz. A few months ago I was at a beer bar and my

> brother bought me what I think was a raspberry lambic, which is to say

> a gag beer, because it was disgustingly sweet and syrupy. I have no

> idea whether it was made with added sugar or just raspberries in some

> form or other, but yuck!

, yes, I had one microbrew beer in Portland that was a light

colored beer and tasted too sweet. I tried it on recommendation of

they guy who sat next to me on the plane ride to Portland. I stuck

with the ales after that. Maybe that lambic you tried had HFCS

[Guest guest]

> > I'm guessing most popular commercial beers have a lot of sugar

> > added at the end to make the beer taste sweeter. I'm not sure

> > you're old enough to remember Schlitz beer, or something like

> > or Corona today. These beers are too sweet for me.

>

--- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Oh okay. I don't know. I haven't had something like that for years.

> Are they really beers???<weg>

, maybe they should be called fake beers, to go along with all

the fake food out there

[Guest guest]

--- Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> If you really want to avoid pesticide residues, your best bet really

> is the organic versions. Although it is important to be aware

> though that " made with organic grapes " is a different claim from

> " organic wine " : the former allows sulfites to be added while the

> latter doesn't. Organic wines have a naturally occurring sulfite

> max of 20 ppm and wines can be labeled sulfite free/no added

> sulfites if they are below 10 ppm.

> (http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm)

Thanks for the info Lana. I think I must have an aversion to sulfites

and that's probably why I prefer ale to wine. I'm going to start

exploring more of the organic ales to see what's out there.

[Guest guest]

>

> , I also did a fair amount of walking, probably close to my

> usual 2 to 3 miles a day at home. The Portland riverfront was great

> for that. I put some photos from one of my walks here:

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/oz4caster/sets/72157604475524186/

,

I couldn't help noticing your rescue dogs at this link. God bless you for

taking rescues. They are absolutely adorable (especially Hailey). They are

so lucky to have found you!

Suze

[Guest guest]

>

> , maybe they should be called fake beers, to go along with all

> the fake food out there

enbeer.

Suze

[Guest guest]

,

> And beer's alcohol content can contribute to fatty liver, weight

> gain, drunkenness, harmful or fatal accident, brain damage, and a

> variety of other problems.

[snip]

> If that's true (and AFAIK

> it's just speculative at this point) then people who eat organic,

> grass-fed food, limit their carbs, drastically limit their PUFA, and

> so on, are likely to benefit less from alcohol, in which case the

> balance of harm vs gain might shift towards harm.

People who drastically limit their PUFA are also unlikely to get fatty

liver disease from alcohol. In animal experiments, there is a

dose-dependent protection against fatty liver from the replacement of

corn oil with tallow, and when animals are fed cocoa butter as their

only fat, which is very low in PUFA, they can be fed 30% of their

calories as alcohol without developing fatty liver.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> Hops have absolutely *nothing* to do with alcohol content! They are a

> flavoring agent that doubles as a preservative and that is it!! If

> anything, having more hops in beer allows the beer to be *less* alcoholic

> because it keeps longer.

I have no idea if it affects the alcohol, but my understanding is that

hops has narcotic properties, so I'm sure it affects the type of buzz

you get.

Chris

[Guest guest]

LOL when I go to Seattle I go to Kells too.

Otherwise it is big and scary with bewildering roads and the people

all wear black downtown.

Connie

>

> > Speaking as one who lives in Portland - it makes it hard to leave

> > town. Other places just don't have the good stuff

> >

> > Glad you liked Kells. I do too

> >

>

> Connie

>

> When is the last time you have been to Seattle? :-)))

>

>

> --

> " A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

> and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

> eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

> it. " Max Planck

>

[Guest guest]

Chris-

I didn't realize avoiding PUFA was quite THAT protective against fatty

liver, but fatty liver is hardly the only drawback of significant

alcohol consumption. (Have their been any tests involving minimal

PUFA, lots of alcohol, and significant quantities of fructose?) At

any rate, I suppose you could also make the counter-argument that even

if people who eat organic, grass-fed, etc., they're still being

exposed to lots more toxins via pollution and other vectors than their

ancestors, so maybe alcohol is still a useful detoxification agent

even for them. Who knows. Hard evidence would be required for any

kind of solid conclusions.

-

> > And beer's alcohol content can contribute to fatty liver, weight

> > gain, drunkenness, harmful or fatal accident, brain damage, and a

> > variety of other problems.

>

> [snip]

>

> > If that's true (and AFAIK

> > it's just speculative at this point) then people who eat organic,

> > grass-fed food, limit their carbs, drastically limit their PUFA, and

> > so on, are likely to benefit less from alcohol, in which case the

> > balance of harm vs gain might shift towards harm.

>

> People who drastically limit their PUFA are also unlikely to get fatty

> liver disease from alcohol. In animal experiments, there is a

> dose-dependent protection against fatty liver from the replacement of

> corn oil with tallow, and when animals are fed cocoa butter as their

> only fat, which is very low in PUFA, they can be fed 30% of their

> calories as alcohol without developing fatty liver.

[Guest guest]

> > Apparently the west coast has many advantages over the east. I

keep

> > hearing how you practically can't sneeze without hitting a free

tennis

> > court over there, whereas here it's a major trek to get to the

one set

> > of courts on which I can play for more than an hour a day, and

they're

> > always crowded, too.

>

> Wouldn't this have something to do with the fact that you live in

Harlem,

> NYC?

No, it has to do with the fact that I live in NYC period. It's just

as true for posh neighborhoods of Manhattan and for all the other

boroughs. There just aren't many public courts, and the few there

are limit the time you can use them to an absurd degree.

> Haha! I could just see the endless, winless NN-style debate about

choosing

> the political leadership of that state cancelling all other

benefits.

No need for that: I'll draw up the constitution, design the political

system, determine the basic rules, and take care of all the rest. No

debate needed. ;-)

-

[Guest guest]

-

> Roughly speaking about half the year Orthodox abstain from animal

> foods (of course not every day). For most of the year it is just

twice

> a week. But that is not set in stone, if a person is physically

unable

> to do so then there is no requirement that they keep the fasts.

>

> Plus, coconut products (SFA) are always allowed. Shellfish is always

> allowed. And fish is often allowed during many of the fasting

periods.

Well, then if by some bizarre chain of events I became an Orthodox

Christian, they'd have to make an exception for me, because coconut

products and seafood can't seem to substitute for red meat for me. I

don't know what's missing in them, but while they're beneficial to

me, they don't provide some key nutrient or nutrients that I require

from red meat. Rare or raw red meat, to be precise, as anything well-

done loses its effectiveness.

-

[Guest guest]

Your welcome Dawn. I hope you husband finds the hobby as rewarding as

I do. I also hope that you are as understanding of his potential

obsession as my wife is of mine

Cheers,

and if he need any advice please ask.

> >

> > I normally try to buy organic products but was wondering if pesticides

> > or their residuals may make it through the brewing process in

> > significant quantities of concern? This is the only mycotoxin that I

> > will occasionally indulge for pleasure, but I'm not sure if it's worth

> > the trouble to pay for organic beer and ale. I sampled some good pale

> > ales and ales on my recent visit to Portland, but I don't think they

> > were organic. At the moment, I'm indulging in a Lamar Street organic

> > pale ale that I got on sale at WF for $5.99 a six pack, after my walk

> > on a beautiful day today

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

>

> ,

> I am no expert in nutrition or chemistry, but I am very knowledgeable

> about brewing. I have no idea what non-organic ingredients my be

> present in a store bought beer. How ever if you are interested in

> making and drinking organic beer here are some resources.

>

> http://www.breworganic.com/

>

> http://www.theorganicreport.com/pages/605_organic_beer.cfm

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

>

> The best organic beer I have tasted is Green Lakes, brewed by

> Decheutes Brewery in Bend Oregon.

>

[Guest guest]

,

> Well, then if by some bizarre chain of events I became an Orthodox

> Christian, they'd have to make an exception for me, because coconut

> products and seafood can't seem to substitute for red meat for me. I

> don't know what's missing in them, but while they're beneficial to

> me, they don't provide some key nutrient or nutrients that I require

> from red meat. Rare or raw red meat, to be precise, as anything well-

> done loses its effectiveness.

Have you tried clams specifically? Just wondering because they are

loaded with heme.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> Have you tried clams specifically? Just wondering because they are

> loaded with heme.

No, I've only had clams on rare occasions, actually. Mussels,

scallops, squid, octopus, conch, and all manner of fish fail to give

me the energy and mental clarity that red meat does. Shrimp *might*

be a partial exception, but I can't afford to experiment properly.

<g> Is there any particular reason dietary heme might be important

for metabolism and brain fog?

-

[Guest guest]

, some facts:

The mother's drink rate is not 3 drinks per night for fetal alcohol,

but

" Patterns of exposure known to place a fetus at greatest risk include

binge drinking, defined as having five or more drinks at one time,

and drinking seven or more drinks per week. "

Also if the mother's metabolism processes alcohol like people in

alcoholic families (as opposed to the general population), the affect

is magnified; the metabolites are different and the rate of

metabolism of alcohol is different.

So no, low to moderate beer and wine consumption is not necessarily

good for everyone. Per the CDC facts as well as my opinion.

Connie

> My point is one should not give advice in areas one is not educated

> in. You gave no reasons to drink less beer. All you gave was an

opinion.

>

> Cheers,

>

>

[Guest guest]

My source was an article written by Malcolm Gladwell in the June 3,

1996 issue of The New Yorker entitled The Tipping Point. Having read a

couple of Mr. Gladwell's books, The tipping Point (also a book), and

Blink (highly recommended) I have found him to be credible. I will

argue this point no further though as a part of me does not believe

that every woman could have 2 drinks every night and not affect her

fetus. I have a 5 and 1/2 month old son and during the entire 10

months my wife was pregnant (yes 10 months) she probably had 2 glasses

of wine and maybe 4 beers most of which I finished. If you would point

me in the direction of the research that you are referring to I would

gladly read it as I am interested in all things beer.

I never said that beer or drinking was good for everyone. I do not

believe that beer should be advertised as a health food as there are

clearly potential hazards inherent to all alcoholic beverages, but I

also don't believe it should be vilified.

Cheers,

--- In , " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...>

wrote:

>

> , some facts:

>

> The mother's drink rate is not 3 drinks per night for fetal alcohol,

> but

>

> " Patterns of exposure known to place a fetus at greatest risk include

> binge drinking, defined as having five or more drinks at one time,

> and drinking seven or more drinks per week. "

>

> Also if the mother's metabolism processes alcohol like people in

> alcoholic families (as opposed to the general population), the affect

> is magnified; the metabolites are different and the rate of

> metabolism of alcohol is different.

>

> So no, low to moderate beer and wine consumption is not necessarily

> good for everyone. Per the CDC facts as well as my opinion.

>

> Connie

>

> > My point is one should not give advice in areas one is not educated

> > in. You gave no reasons to drink less beer. All you gave was an

> opinion.

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for being a good sport, . The CDC is one place to start

with FAS. A further problem is that FAS is a continuum, and a person

could be high functioning and still have FAS symptoms.

One dear friend of mine spent an entire career in science,

alternately brilliant, annoying, and scatter-brained, until at over

50 the penny dropped and she remembered how much her mother drank and

looked up the symptoms and sure enough, she had it. She says she

would have done a LOT of things different over the years, from

schooling to counseling and everything in between, if only she had

known a cause of the brain things that got in her way.

FAS doesn't need to be the classic debilitating kind like

an " afterschool special; " the effects can be many and subtle.

I don't want to vilify wine and beer either. But knowing what I know,

I would hope that no one in my family takes risks with it (history of

alcoholism; if anyone in our family had " 2 glasses of wine a night "

they would be 12-ounce glasses, not 3-4 like in the weenie magazines,

LOL). Beer and wine are pleasant in their place but there are other

ways to get some pleasure in daily life that don't come with those

particular risks.

Connie

> >

> > , some facts:

> >

> > The mother's drink rate is not 3 drinks per night for fetal

alcohol,

> > but

> >

> > " Patterns of exposure known to place a fetus at greatest risk

include

> > binge drinking, defined as having five or more drinks at one

time,

> > and drinking seven or more drinks per week. "

> >

> > Also if the mother's metabolism processes alcohol like people in

> > alcoholic families (as opposed to the general population), the

affect

> > is magnified; the metabolites are different and the rate of

> > metabolism of alcohol is different.

> >

> > So no, low to moderate beer and wine consumption is not

necessarily

> > good for everyone. Per the CDC facts as well as my opinion.

> >

> > Connie

> >

> > > My point is one should not give advice in areas one is not

educated

> > > in. You gave no reasons to drink less beer. All you gave was an

> > opinion.

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

> No, I've only had clams on rare occasions, actually. Mussels,

> scallops, squid, octopus, conch, and all manner of fish fail to give

> me the energy and mental clarity that red meat does. Shrimp *might*

> be a partial exception, but I can't afford to experiment properly.

> <g> Is there any particular reason dietary heme might be important

> for metabolism and brain fog?

I would suggest as an experiment, if you don't mind them, trying to

replace your red meat with clams for a week and see what happens.

Heme is necessary for a whole host of enzymes, including catalse,

which is one of the key antioxidant enzymes of the cell; all of the

cytochrome p450s involved in detoxification, steroid metabolism,

vitamin metabolism, etc; the cytochromes of the electron transport

chain necessary for energy production. And of course it's the active

part of the main oxygen carrier in the blood.

Chris

[Guest guest]

thanks for all that information! That was great.

I made a batch of mead, but it's only been fermenting a couple of

months. I may have to try cider next.

-- In , " Lana Gibbons "

<lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

>

> Ciders and Meads are like wine in that the ingredients (apples in

terms of

> cider, honey in terms of mead) are not processed before production.

>

> Here's a list of pesticide contamination of produce:

> http://www.foodnews.org/fulldataset.php

[Guest guest]

> --- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> > Oh okay. I don't know. I haven't had something like that for years.

> > Are they really beers???<weg>

>

> , maybe they should be called fake beers, to go along with all

> the fake food out there

>

>

When I was in college we drank something called " Near Beer " but I'm

not even sure that is an apt description.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck