[POLITICS] Conspiracy theories - evidence-based vs. non evidence-based (was: immunologist whistleblower on vaccines)

[Guest guest]

> There is quite a large gap between the acceptance that there are

unscrupulous

> business people and corporations, and even that the system is corrupt, and

people

> being murdered left and right in all sorts of contexts - 9/11 planned by

the Bush

> govt, scientists being killed systematically, AIDS unleashed on the world

by the

> U.S. etc. Most of these have appeared on this list at one point or another

(along

> with other ones) and the attitude seems to be - the only evidence that's

actually

> needed to make these views plausible is skepticism about the motives of

our

> current government. No real evidence ever needs to be provided. All

paranoia

> immediately accepted here.

I cannot speak to any of the other issues you raised here other than rogue

elements in the current Bushco regime playing a role in the 9/11 attacks.

This is something that *I* wrote about on this list recently. And so I find

it extremely ironic that you would say " No real evidence ever needs to be

provided. All paranoia immediately accepted here " in regards to 9/11. The

irony here is largely that the official Bushco conspiracy theory (that a

ragtag band of 19 Arabs carried it out under the guidance of the

cave-dwelling (CIA asset bin Laden), successfully attacked not only the most

securely guarded building on the planet (Pentagon) but also the Twin Towers.

(Never mind, among other things, that 5 or so of the accused who supposedly

perished in the fiery plane crashes have turned up alive in other

countries.)The official fable of the attacks is so full of holes it's

inconceivable that it was ever believed. It is the poster child on the

grandest scale in modern history of the statement " No real evidence ever

needs to be provided " .

Of course, these days, only about 16% of Americans still believe it. Or

they did according to a NY Times poll in 2006. Since the number has been

steadily declining, it's likely lower than that now. According to that same

poll about 1 in 3 Americans believe the Bush regime is lying. Well

duh....once you actually spend some time looking at the evidence.

While that doesn't necessarily mean they believe that rogue elements within

the gov't were complicit, there are many, MANY reputable figures around the

world who do. However, due to the fact that most Americans get their

information from the propaganda-pushing corporate-controlled mainstream

media, they aren't typically tuned in to reality or to what the rest of the

world is thinking. And when someone says they believe the evidence strongly

points toward elements within the government being complicit, they are

ridiculed as " paranoid conspiracy theorists " , typically by those who have

NOT examined the evidence either at all or as thoroughly as they have. After

all, Dubya told us from the get-go not to believe crazy conspiracy theories

about 9/11 and mainstream media figures ridiculed anyone with an alternative

theory regardless of the fact that the alternative theory actually matched

the evidence while the official theory did not. Of course, they are the

creators of truth so we shouldn't bother thinking for ourselves.

It is getting harder and harder for the Bush regime, mainstream media and

the other peddlers of a fictitious, outrageous conspiracy theory (the

regime's official 9/11 conspiracy theory) to convince the world that their

fable is reality as more people, including experts in the fields of physics,

intelligence, politics, architects, engineers, pilots and many more have

examined the evidence and come to reject the official fable.

Here is a partial list of these " paranoid conspiracy theorists " -some of

whom have stated clearly that they believe elements of the Bush regime were

involved. Several have not only thoroughly examined the evidence but have

also written books, documentary films and/or research papers on the

evidence.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Lt. Col. Dr. Bowman

-Director of the secret Star Wars program under two presidents

-Vietnam fighter bomber

-Authority on national security

-VP of space communications company

-PhD in aeronautics and nuclear engineering from Caltech

Dr. Bowman comes right out and says 9/11 was an inside job. Listen to

interviewing him here:

<http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/030406bowman.htm>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

s von Bulow, former German Defense Minister

Author of " 9/11 and the CIA "

Audio interview:

<http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/200406vonbuelow.htm>

He has written a book called The CIA and September 11 (German: Die CIA und

der 11. September), in which he implies US government complicity in the

September 11, 2001 attacks.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/s_von_B%C3%BClow>

" Planning the attacks was a master deed, in technical and organizational

terms. To hijack four big airliners within a few minutes and fly them into

targets within a single hour and doing so on complicated flight routes! That

is unthinkable, without backing from the secret apparatuses of state and

industry. " Tagesspiegel, 13. Jan. 2002 [1]

He told The Daily Telegraph at his home in Bonn.

" If what I say is right, the whole US government should end up behind bars "

and " They have hidden behind a veil of secrecy and destroyed the evidence -

that they invented the story of 19 Muslims working within Osama bin Laden's

al-Qa'eda - in order to hide the truth of their own covert operation " [2].

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Guilietto Chiesa

- Member of the European Parliament

- Just released his new film in 2008 " ZERO: An Investigation into 9/11 "

< http://zero911movie.com>

" On Tuesday 26th February [2008], Europarlementarian Guilietto Chiesa

invited his colleagues and the press to attend the screening and debate of

the Italian-produced documentary named 'ZERO, an investigation into the

events of 9/11'. Object of the screening was to create political awareness

of the faulty official investigation into the events by the 9/11

Commission. "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Yukihisa Fujita

Member of the Japanese Parliament

Participated in the panel discussion after the airing of " Zero, an

investigation into the events of 9/11 " .

" Citizens in many countries are waging a war on the cover-up of the basis

for the so-called war on terror--this basis being the official

interpretation of the 9/11 attacks. Along with the Internet, which has

equipped both public figures and ordinary citizens to wage this war on the

cover-up, Ray has revealed dozens of omissions, distortions,

and contradictions in the official story in a way that provides undeniable

evidence of its falsity. The New Pearl Harbor Revisited presents a powerful

exposé of the false narrative that has been driving the mainstream political

agenda since 9/11. It is now up to politicians and journalists around the

world to expose this truth to our peoples. " -- --Yukihisa Fujita, member of

the House of Councilors, the Diet of Japan

<http://tinyurl.com/4vfgcb>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Ray McGovern

- Former CIA analyst

- Federal employee under seven U.S. presidents over 27 years

- Says 9/11 Commission was massive cover up

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Bill Christison

- Former National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office

of Regional and Political Analysis

- 28 years with the CIA

" Let’s give Webster Tarpley and other mistakenly labeled conspiracists who

have labored in the wilderness for so long three cheers. "

<http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm>

(Tarpley wrote " 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the USA " and is outspoken

about 9/11 being an inside job.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Ralph Nader,

- 2008 Independent candidate for US Presidency

- calls for a new truly independent investigation of 9/11

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

McKinney

- 2008 Green Party Presidential Candidate

- calls for a new truly independent investigation of 9/11

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Arizona Sen.

Calls for a new investigation of 9/11

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Hamburg

Former Congressman from CA

Stated he believes that the 9/11 terrorists had help from inside the US

gov't.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Congressman Dennis Kucinich

- Initiated investigation into insider trading that took place immediately

before 9/11 and resulted in windfalls for those who placed put options on

the airlines that were hijacked

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

500 architects and engineers calling for a new and truly independent

investigation. See Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

<http://www.ae911truth.org/>

" We are a non-partisan association of Architects, Engineers, and affiliates,

who are dedicated to exposing the falsehoods and to revealing truths about

the “collapses” of the WTC high-rises on 9/11/01.

We call upon Congress for a truly independent investigation with subpoena

power. We believe that there may be sufficient evidence to conclude that the

World Trade Center buildings #1 (North Tower), #2 (South Tower), and #7 (the

47 story high-rise across Vessey St.) were destroyed not by jet impact and

fires but by controlled demolition with explosives.

We believe that this website, as well as the other referenced sites,

contains the information necessary to demonstrate to all with an open mind

that this is the case, and that such an investigation is warranted and

overdue. We believe that the available relevant evidence casts grave doubt

on the government's official story of these “collapses”. "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

, Physicist

<http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/070606jones.htm>

Is convinced (as are many other scientists) that the WTC came down as a

result of controlled demolitions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Dr. Ray

- Director of the Center for Process Studies

- Lecturer and author of " The New Pearl Harbor Revisited: 9/11, the

Cover-Up, and the Exposé " , " The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and

Distortions (2005) " and several other books.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

A few celebrities who want a new investigation:

Ventura, Former Governer of MN

Mark Stepnoski, lineman with the Dallas Cowboys

Willie

Rosie O'Donnell

Charlie Sheen

Sheen

Carlin

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

What a bunch of " paranoid conspiracy theorists " ! My god.

And this list is only the tip of the iceberg....

But of course our government would never attack its own citizens, right?

Wrong.

There is more than one precedent of the US government planning and/or

implementing a False Flag attack. Here, for instance, is the original

declassified government document regarding Operation Northwoods in which the

Joint Chiefs of Staff suggested attacking our own military base, ships,

civilian airliners and other targets in order to blame it on Cuba in order

to justify attacking Cuba.

Operation Northwoods:

<http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf>

For those of you that don't know, a " False Flag " event is when a government

attacks it's own military or citizenry and blames it on a third party in

order to justify an attack on that third party. It's a tactic that's been

used by governments since time immemorial. And it was recently revealed, by

the free press first, that Cheney considered a false flag event as an excuse

to attack Iran. The plan was to build an Iranian ship in our own US

shipyards, dress up our own American Navy Seals as Iranians, and have them

attack one of our own ships to justify our attacking back...attacking our

own Navy Seals, and then Iran. This was recently revealed by Pulitzer Prize

winning journalist for New Yorker Magazine, Sy Hersh.

What??? You mean the highest level of the CURRENT gov't considered a plan to

attack OUR OWN navy seals? Americans who risk their lives for our country??

Nah, they would NEVER do such a thing, would they?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------

>

>

> It seems to me that over the last couple of years, this lists has

degenerated more

> and more into repeated posts about this kind of nonsense, with less and

less real

> nutritional information being provided. After all, the most important

thing is that this

> is all an occult conspiracy by the real, hidden, government, right?

No, whether or not there is mold on your kombucha is FAR more important than

who is really responsible for the mass murder of 3,000 Americans on

9/11/2001 - an event which was used to justify every subsequent revocation

of our civil liberties since then, which is used to justify the increasingly

stifling tyranny of our current gov't, and which was the justification for

invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 where thousand of US

military personnel have been brutally killed and hundreds of thousands of

innocent Iraqis have been brutally murdered. An event which is also the

justification for sucking a trillion dollars out of US taxpayers in order to

fund our growing Imperial Mobilization. An event which has caused massive

global blowback as America becomes an increasingly hated entity.

So, by all means, lets get back to the discussion on moldy kombucha.

Suze Fisher

" Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight. "

~Albert Schweitzer