RE: evidence for US gov't complicity in 9/11 attacks?

[Guest guest]

> > > I watched about 30 minutes of Fabled Enemies. A total piece of crap,

> > > and wasn't convincing in the least.

<snip>

> I was basing my statement on the fact that the arguments were

> primarily emotional, poorly constructed, and seemingly bolstered by

> the melodramatic music being played in the background. I think that

> you can tell from the first half hour of something that it is a piece

> of crap. I can listen to Palin for about 20 seconds, for

> instance, to determine that she's an idiot.

> So, you're actually denying that most of the news sources that are

> displayed in the video (at least the first 30 minutes) are from Fox

> News? If you are, I'm impressed, though I'm not sure at what.

<snip>

I think this is an extremely superficial critique of the movie and even more

so considering you didn't watch past the first half hour. There were several

important, substantive clips in the first 30 minutes (as well as in the rest

of the movie) and you either totally ignored them or do not grasp the

significance of them. More on that below.

The one thing I agree with you on is the music. This was Bermas' first

solo film (he was one of three who created " Loose Change Final Cut " ) and I

thought it was a bit rough in several ways, including the music choices.

And as I've said repeatedly, none of the documentaries or lectures that I've

seen so far lay out the entire case pointing toward government complicity.

You have to be able to cull out the truly solid evidence from the weak in

each and every movie, lecture or book.

As to your comment " the arguments were primarily emotional, poorly

constructed " - there were certainly a few emotional clips such as the

interview with NY detective Bo Dietl and his pals but I would argue that the

most important pieces of evidence offered by this movie (all but one not

exclusive to this movie) were not emotional and not necessarily

" constructed " but were rather bits and pieces of important first person

testimonies. I notice that in your email you fixate on how unreliable fox

news is yet completely ignore the part of my email that starts out " But far

more important than these news reports is... " then I go on to describe the

FIRST HAND testimony of former chief consulate Springmann talking about the

Jeddah consulate being run by the CIA and their funneling Islamic terrorist

into the US, FBI investigator O'Neil's complaints that his investigation

into al Qaeda had been obstructed, FBI investigator 's first

hand testimony that his investigation into terrorism had been obstructed

when he got close to bin Laden and Barry Jennings (deputy director of

emergency management services for NY) giving first hand testimony that he

heard multiple explosions IN building 7 BEFORE the Twin Towers fell and that

when he was led out of the building he was stepping over bodies.

All of these are important evidence but you ignored all of this and instead

fixate on the unreliability of Fox News although the testimony of only one

of these men was shown by a Fox affiliate.

As I said previously, I agree with you that Fox News is an unreliable

source. Your favorite buddy (har har) , who produced the film also

agrees. He recently stated that Fox News is so cartoonish that no one takes

them seriously. However here is my critique of your critique of Fox News

clips being used in the film.

1. First and foremost, you need to differentiate the reliability of a story

that is solely based on what reporters say and one based on FIRST HAND

testimony of someone being interviewed. You complained that the first 30

mins of Fabled Enemies relied too heavily on Fox News stories. It was

actually about 20 mins into the show and ending around 30-35 mins into the

show that relied heavily on a couple of Fox News stories that the movie kept

flashing back to. The first of these stories was:

a) Lt. Col, US Army Reserve, Senior Intelligence Officer Schaeffer

was head of a special ops unit called " Able Danger " whose job it was to

track al Qaeda. Starting about 20 mins into Fabled Enemies there are some

clips from Fox News showing Col Shaffer giving direct_testimony before a

whistleblower's hearing about how the unit identified the terrorist cell of

Mohammed Atta before the 9/11 attacks and tried to inform the FBI but that

their meetings were blocked by military lawyers. He was shown giving

testimony in a few other venues as well. Further he said that that he told

members of the 9/11 Commission that Able Danger had identified two of the

three cells responsible for the 9/11 attacks but the Commission omitted this

info in their final report.

Following Fox's clips from Col. Schaffer's testimony was direct testimony

from Representative Curt Weldon, vice chairman of the House Armed Services

and House Homeland Security committees about the obstruction of information

from Abel Danger.

This is where you have to use common sense to differentiate the veracity of

first hand testimony shown by a media outlet and propaganda put out by the

outlet itself.

the second segment of length that showed several fox news clips was about

Israeli intellgence operatives in the US and in particular, the 3 Israelis

that were seen filming the 9/11 attacks while cheering and celebrating. I

don't know if other news agencies reported on Israeli spies in the US in

general with the same info that Brit Hume and his colleague reported on FOX,

but that's an irrelevant aside. The main story here is the 3 guys filming

the attacks and cheering them. And here again, Fabled Enemies does not rely

solely on Fox News...actually...it may not rely on Fox News at all for this

info. The one clip shown a witness who saw these guys cheering and filming

the attacks didn't have a station identifier on it that I noticed so I don't

know if it was Fox or some other agency. Nonetheless, the most important

clip is from *Israeli* television. Assuming the translation is correct, the

guys told the interviewer it was " their job to document the attack " .

That leads to the obvious questions - who sent them? And how did they know

the attacks would occur?

c) The story following this was about Amdocs - the Israeli company that does

billing for 90% of the phone companies in the US. This story was told mostly

by Fox News but also by Mike Riviera of whatreallyhappened.com. I didn't pay

close attention to this segment so don't have a comment on it.

After these three stories there was very little Fox footage in the other

hour plus of the movie. The Fox footage seemed to be concentrated mostly on

these three stories, and as I've pointed out, the first two stories stand

alone first hand testimony of Schaffer, Weldon and the 3 Israelis without

having to rely on Fox's reliability. There were many other clips from

various news sources throughout the movie including CSPAN, NBC, ABC, CBS, NY

Times, NORAD news, BBC, PBS and CNN among others.

And since you stopped watching after 30 mins, you missed some of the most

important evidence the film offered.

What I'd like to hear is comments on the substance of the testimony from Lt.

Col. Schaffer, and Springman as well as Barry

Jennings, who's unedited interview was shown later in the movie and may be

one of the strongest pieces of evidence for bombs in building 7.

To remind you who these gentlemen are:

1. Springmann was the chief of the visa department at the US

Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and he testified that the consulate was

essentially run by the CIA and was used to funnel in and protect Islamic

terrorists including several of the 9/11 hijackers.

2. Lt. Col, US Army Reserve, Senior Intelligence Officer Schaeffer

was head of a special ops unit called " Able Danger " whose job it was to

track al Qaeda and who testified that his unit's investigation into al Qaeda

was obstructed.

3. Special Agent of the FBI Counter terrorism task force who

testified that his investigation into terrorism was stopped before 9/11. He

was working on an operation called " Vulgar Betrayal " which was successful in

seizing $1.4 million frorm a Saudi businessman who was funding bin Laden.

According to Judicial Watch in 2004 " Frances Townsend, who now is homeland

security adviser to President Bush, played a key role in stopping the

investigation " .

4. Barry Jennings was the deputy director of emergency management services

and was with city counsel Hess in building 7 before any of the

towers fell. He testifies on camera that there were explosions below them

while they were on the 8th floor and that, in fact, the floor had blown out

from underneath them and he found himself hanging from a beam. This happened

*before* either of the Twin Towers fell. Then, as he was being led out by

fireman he was told not to look down, he says, because they were stepping

over people in the *lobby* of building 7.

How about commenting on the testimony of these men which was presented in

Fabled Enemies?

Suze

[Guest guest]

I'm just not going to waste my time with this crap anymore. Enjoy your

delusion.

> > > > I watched about 30 minutes of Fabled Enemies. A total piece of

> crap,

> > > > and wasn't convincing in the least.

>

> <snip>

>

> > I was basing my statement on the fact that the arguments were

> > primarily emotional, poorly constructed, and seemingly bolstered by

> > the melodramatic music being played in the background. I think that

> > you can tell from the first half hour of something that it is a

> piece

> > of crap. I can listen to Palin for about 20 seconds, for

> > instance, to determine that she's an idiot.

>

> > So, you're actually denying that most of the news sources that are

> > displayed in the video (at least the first 30 minutes) are from Fox

> > News? If you are, I'm impressed, though I'm not sure at what.

>

> <snip>

>

> I think this is an extremely superficial critique of the movie and

> even more

> so considering you didn't watch past the first half hour. There were

> several

> important, substantive clips in the first 30 minutes (as well as in

> the rest

> of the movie) and you either totally ignored them or do not grasp the

> significance of them. More on that below.

>

> The one thing I agree with you on is the music. This was

> Bermas' first

> solo film (he was one of three who created " Loose Change Final Cut " )

> and I

> thought it was a bit rough in several ways, including the music

> choices.

>

> And as I've said repeatedly, none of the documentaries or lectures

> that I've

> seen so far lay out the entire case pointing toward government

> complicity.

> You have to be able to cull out the truly solid evidence from the

> weak in

> each and every movie, lecture or book.

>

> As to your comment " the arguments were primarily emotional, poorly

> constructed " - there were certainly a few emotional clips such as the

> interview with NY detective Bo Dietl and his pals but I would argue

> that the

> most important pieces of evidence offered by this movie (all but one

> not

> exclusive to this movie) were not emotional and not necessarily

> " constructed " but were rather bits and pieces of important first

> person

> testimonies. I notice that in your email you fixate on how

> unreliable fox

> news is yet completely ignore the part of my email that starts out

> " But far

> more important than these news reports is... " then I go on to

> describe the

> FIRST HAND testimony of former chief consulate Springmann talking

> about the

> Jeddah consulate being run by the CIA and their funneling Islamic

> terrorist

> into the US, FBI investigator O'Neil's complaints that his

> investigation

> into al Qaeda had been obstructed, FBI investigator 's

> first

> hand testimony that his investigation into terrorism had been

> obstructed

> when he got close to bin Laden and Barry Jennings (deputy director of

> emergency management services for NY) giving first hand testimony

> that he

> heard multiple explosions IN building 7 BEFORE the Twin Towers fell

> and that

> when he was led out of the building he was stepping over bodies.

>

> All of these are important evidence but you ignored all of this and

> instead

> fixate on the unreliability of Fox News although the testimony of

> only one

> of these men was shown by a Fox affiliate.

>

> As I said previously, I agree with you that Fox News is an unreliable

> source. Your favorite buddy (har har) , who produced the

> film also

> agrees. He recently stated that Fox News is so cartoonish that no

> one takes

> them seriously. However here is my critique of your critique of Fox

> News

> clips being used in the film.

>

> 1. First and foremost, you need to differentiate the reliability of

> a story

> that is solely based on what reporters say and one based on FIRST HAND

> testimony of someone being interviewed. You complained that the

> first 30

> mins of Fabled Enemies relied too heavily on Fox News stories. It was

> actually about 20 mins into the show and ending around 30-35 mins

> into the

> show that relied heavily on a couple of Fox News stories that the

> movie kept

> flashing back to. The first of these stories was:

>

> a) Lt. Col, US Army Reserve, Senior Intelligence Officer

> Schaeffer

> was head of a special ops unit called " Able Danger " whose job it was

> to

> track al Qaeda. Starting about 20 mins into Fabled Enemies there are

> some

> clips from Fox News showing Col Shaffer giving direct_testimony

> before a

> whistleblower's hearing about how the unit identified the terrorist

> cell of

> Mohammed Atta before the 9/11 attacks and tried to inform the FBI

> but that

> their meetings were blocked by military lawyers. He was shown giving

> testimony in a few other venues as well. Further he said that that

> he told

> members of the 9/11 Commission that Able Danger had identified two

> of the

> three cells responsible for the 9/11 attacks but the Commission

> omitted this

> info in their final report.

>

> Following Fox's clips from Col. Schaffer's testimony was direct

> testimony

> from Representative Curt Weldon, vice chairman of the House Armed

> Services

> and House Homeland Security committees about the obstruction of

> information

> from Abel Danger.

>

> This is where you have to use common sense to differentiate the

> veracity of

> first hand testimony shown by a media outlet and propaganda put out

> by the

> outlet itself.

>

> the second segment of length that showed several fox news clips

> was about

> Israeli intellgence operatives in the US and in particular, the 3

> Israelis

> that were seen filming the 9/11 attacks while cheering and

> celebrating. I

> don't know if other news agencies reported on Israeli spies in the

> US in

> general with the same info that Brit Hume and his colleague reported

> on FOX,

> but that's an irrelevant aside. The main story here is the 3 guys

> filming

> the attacks and cheering them. And here again, Fabled Enemies does

> not rely

> solely on Fox News...actually...it may not rely on Fox News at all

> for this

> info. The one clip shown a witness who saw these guys cheering and

> filming

> the attacks didn't have a station identifier on it that I noticed so

> I don't

> know if it was Fox or some other agency. Nonetheless, the most

> important

> clip is from *Israeli* television. Assuming the translation is

> correct, the

> guys told the interviewer it was " their job to document the attack " .

>

> That leads to the obvious questions - who sent them? And how did

> they know

> the attacks would occur?

>

> c) The story following this was about Amdocs - the Israeli company

> that does

> billing for 90% of the phone companies in the US. This story was

> told mostly

> by Fox News but also by Mike Riviera of whatreallyhappened.com. I

> didn't pay

> close attention to this segment so don't have a comment on it.

>

> After these three stories there was very little Fox footage in the

> other

> hour plus of the movie. The Fox footage seemed to be concentrated

> mostly on

> these three stories, and as I've pointed out, the first two stories

> stand

> alone first hand testimony of Schaffer, Weldon and the 3 Israelis

> without

> having to rely on Fox's reliability. There were many other clips from

> various news sources throughout the movie including CSPAN, NBC, ABC,

> CBS, NY

> Times, NORAD news, BBC, PBS and CNN among others.

>

> And since you stopped watching after 30 mins, you missed some of the

> most

> important evidence the film offered.

>

> What I'd like to hear is comments on the substance of the testimony

> from Lt.

> Col. Schaffer, and Springman as well as Barry

> Jennings, who's unedited interview was shown later in the movie and

> may be

> one of the strongest pieces of evidence for bombs in building 7.

>

> To remind you who these gentlemen are:

>

> 1. Springmann was the chief of the visa department at the US

> Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and he testified that the

> consulate was

> essentially run by the CIA and was used to funnel in and protect

> Islamic

> terrorists including several of the 9/11 hijackers.

>

> 2. Lt. Col, US Army Reserve, Senior Intelligence Officer

> Schaeffer

> was head of a special ops unit called " Able Danger " whose job it was

> to

> track al Qaeda and who testified that his unit's investigation into

> al Qaeda

> was obstructed.

>

> 3. Special Agent of the FBI Counter terrorism task

> force who

> testified that his investigation into terrorism was stopped before

> 9/11. He

> was working on an operation called " Vulgar Betrayal " which was

> successful in

> seizing $1.4 million frorm a Saudi businessman who was funding bin

> Laden.

> According to Judicial Watch in 2004 " Frances Townsend, who now is

> homeland

> security adviser to President Bush, played a key role in stopping the

> investigation " .

>

> 4. Barry Jennings was the deputy director of emergency management

> services

> and was with city counsel Hess in building 7 before any of the

> towers fell. He testifies on camera that there were explosions below

> them

> while they were on the 8th floor and that, in fact, the floor had

> blown out

> from underneath them and he found himself hanging from a beam. This

> happened

> *before* either of the Twin Towers fell. Then, as he was being led

> out by

> fireman he was told not to look down, he says, because they were

> stepping

> over people in the *lobby* of building 7.

>

> How about commenting on the testimony of these men which was

> presented in

> Fabled Enemies?

>

> Suze

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I'm just not going to waste my time with this crap anymore. Enjoy your

> delusion.

>

Hmmmm....resorting to derisive and ad hominem remarks again.

I imagine if you actually had a rebuttal to my argument about the validity

of the testimony of these four men in the case for complicity you'd offer

it.

Suze

[Guest guest]

you're correct. I didn't read it.

>

> > I'm just not going to waste my time with this crap anymore. Enjoy

> your

> > delusion.

> >

>

> Hmmmm....resorting to derisive and ad hominem remarks again.

>

> I imagine if you actually had a rebuttal to my argument about the

> validity

> of the testimony of these four men in the case for complicity you'd

> offer

> it.

>

> Suze

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> you're correct. I didn't read it.

I figured as much. It's fine by me since you are not my intended audience.

For anyone who did read my post and actually has a rebuttal, I'd be happy to

hear it.

Suze