Re: RELIGION Orthodox Fasting (was organic beer and ale)

[Guest guest]

,

> Plus, coconut products (SFA) are always allowed. Shellfish is always

> allowed. And fish is often allowed during many of the fasting periods.

Somehow it made it into some of the Russian books that shellfish are

always allowed, whereas the Rudder says, and virtually every other

tradition that I know of, relegates them to the weekends during Great

Lent. I haven't asked people in every jurisdiction so I might be

wrong about that, but from my experience that is how it works. In

other words, they tag along with wine and olive oil. I think this had

something to do with rich people wanting to feast all year round --

and if you read the article Czapp has in the current WT, it

appears many of them managed to sneak fish into great lent too.

Along with shellfish, other crustaceans and shelled land animals seem

to follow. For example, in Crete they eat lots of snails during Lent.

Also, the monks don't eat meat at all, but in _Wounded by Love_ Elder

Porphyrios talks about getting sent by his eldersto collect snails

when he was a young monk on Mt. Athos.

Anyway, shellfish are basically super-animal foods, so nutrient-wise,

eating them on the weekends is like eating meat every day. If you ate

shellfish every day during Lent, your Lenten menu would probably be

your most nutrient-dense menu of the year.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> ,

>

> > Plus, coconut products (SFA) are always allowed. Shellfish is always

> > allowed. And fish is often allowed during many of the fasting periods.

>

> Somehow it made it into some of the Russian books that shellfish are

> always allowed, whereas the Rudder says, and virtually every other

> tradition that I know of, relegates them to the weekends during Great

> Lent. I haven't asked people in every jurisdiction so I might be

> wrong about that, but from my experience that is how it works. In

> other words, they tag along with wine and olive oil. I think this had

> something to do with rich people wanting to feast all year round --

> and if you read the article Czapp has in the current WT, it

> appears many of them managed to sneak fish into great lent too.

In the three jurisdictions I have been an active part of over the

years, Antioch, OCA, and now Jerusalem, all allowed shellfish eating

throughout the fast. I think, although I could be wrong, this is

largely because of the influence of Bishop Kallistos writings, which

do say that shellfish is okay during the various fasts.

> Along with shellfish, other crustaceans and shelled land animals seem

> to follow. For example, in Crete they eat lots of snails during Lent.

> Also, the monks don't eat meat at all, but in _Wounded by Love_ Elder

> Porphyrios talks about getting sent by his eldersto collect snails

> when he was a young monk on Mt. Athos.

I assume you mean monks don't include meat as a part of their diet

even during non-fasting days.

> Anyway, shellfish are basically super-animal foods, so nutrient-wise,

> eating them on the weekends is like eating meat every day. If you ate

> shellfish every day during Lent, your Lenten menu would probably be

> your most nutrient-dense menu of the year.

There was a long discussion on an Orthodox list that I am a part of as

to why the Church does not consider shellfish to be animal foods.

There was also quite a bit of discussion as to how the various foods

abstained from during the fast affect one physically and spiritually.

All very interesting (especially the affect of foods on one

spiritually) but unfortunately I didn't follow it very closely.

If nutritionally speaking shell fish are super-animal foods, then it

might explain their inclusion on the weekends, since during Lent, even

though we always abstain from meat and dairy, we aren't fasting on the

weekends anyway (except Holy Saturday), thus wine, oil, shellfish, and

sometimes fish and/or caviar on the weekends.

Personally it has never been much of an issue with me since I don't

really enjoy shellfish without having a side of melted butter nearby.

It is not that I don't like them without the butter but they just

agree with me better when dipped in animal fat.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

[Guest guest]

,

> In the three jurisdictions I have been an active part of over the

> years, Antioch, OCA, and now Jerusalem, all allowed shellfish eating

> throughout the fast. I think, although I could be wrong, this is

> largely because of the influence of Bishop Kallistos writings, which

> do say that shellfish is okay during the various fasts.

Well, that clinches it. His publication of the Triodion would be the

authoritative text that anyone would use and noone would look any

further, except perhaps the Greeks since the Greek language is still

so heavily in use. So in the English-speaking jurisdictions, they'd

all follow Bishop Kallistos. I should have thought of that before.

But, you know, logically, does it make sense that one would fast from

olive oil while gorging on delicacies like lobster? Or that one would

eat lobster on strict fast days? Not really.

> > Along with shellfish, other crustaceans and shelled land animals seem

> > to follow. For example, in Crete they eat lots of snails during Lent.

> > Also, the monks don't eat meat at all, but in _Wounded by Love_ Elder

> > Porphyrios talks about getting sent by his eldersto collect snails

> > when he was a young monk on Mt. Athos.

> I assume you mean monks don't include meat as a part of their diet

> even during non-fasting days.

I'm not sure what else I could have meant. If they don't eat meat on

fasting days and non-fasting days, isn't that the same thing as saying

they don't eat meat at all?

> > Anyway, shellfish are basically super-animal foods, so nutrient-wise,

> > eating them on the weekends is like eating meat every day. If you ate

> > shellfish every day during Lent, your Lenten menu would probably be

> > your most nutrient-dense menu of the year.

> There was a long discussion on an Orthodox list that I am a part of as

> to why the Church does not consider shellfish to be animal foods.

> There was also quite a bit of discussion as to how the various foods

> abstained from during the fast affect one physically and spiritually.

> All very interesting (especially the affect of foods on one

> spiritually) but unfortunately I didn't follow it very closely.

I'm not sure it is that they aren't considered animal foods, but just

that they aren't considered meat or fish. I guess it's like wondering

why fish isn't considered meat. I don't think the Church is really

using taxanomical categories the way we would. In other words " animal

foods " isn't really a category it uses.

> If nutritionally speaking shell fish are super-animal foods, then it

> might explain their inclusion on the weekends, since during Lent, even

> though we always abstain from meat and dairy, we aren't fasting on the

> weekends anyway (except Holy Saturday), thus wine, oil, shellfish, and

> sometimes fish and/or caviar on the weekends.

I think it is basically, there is no fasting on the weekends, because

Saturday is the Sabbath and day of rest and Sunday is the day of

Resurrection. So, we have to " break the fast. " But we only break it

a little bit.

Shellfish are less filling, taste-wise are the least close to the

flesh of terrestrial animals, are the least sentient of animals, and

are the most difficult to come by. So you necessarily eat less of

them.

I think also maybe there is some nutritional wisdom in it. In that,

when you are eating the least animal foods, eating small amounts of

them can recuperate much of the loss of nutrient density. Much like

how fish is allowed during the Christmas fast, which is when you'd

have the least exposure to sunshine and need the vitamin D found in

fatty fish. Pascha (Easter) tends to fall in April or soon

thereafter, too, which is the last month you can eat shellfish safely

if you follow the " R rule " (i.e. only eat it in months with R in the

name). The other fasts are in the warmer months and also of much

shorter duration.

> Personally it has never been much of an issue with me since I don't

> really enjoy shellfish without having a side of melted butter nearby.

> It is not that I don't like them without the butter but they just

> agree with me better when dipped in animal fat.

I find eating some clams and oysters on the weekend gives me the

perfect balance nutritionally to make it through the rest of the week.

Everyone's a little different. I think the larger point that you

were making is that the point is not to cripple anyone so you follow

it in a way that isn't crippling.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> > In the three jurisdictions I have been an active part of over the

> > years, Antioch, OCA, and now Jerusalem, all allowed shellfish eating

> > throughout the fast. I think, although I could be wrong, this is

> > largely because of the influence of Bishop Kallistos writings, which

> > do say that shellfish is okay during the various fasts.

>

> Well, that clinches it. His publication of the Triodion would be the

> authoritative text that anyone would use and noone would look any

> further, except perhaps the Greeks since the Greek language is still

> so heavily in use. So in the English-speaking jurisdictions, they'd

> all follow Bishop Kallistos. I should have thought of that before.

My mistake. He is now Metropolitan Kallistos.

> But, you know, logically, does it make sense that one would fast from

> olive oil while gorging on delicacies like lobster? Or that one would

> eat lobster on strict fast days? Not really.

I'm not sure it ever makes sense to gorge on any foods, especially

during the fasting periods :-)

I can't eat any cooked shellfish at all so that pretty much rules out

lobster for me even on weekends.

> > > Along with shellfish, other crustaceans and shelled land animals seem

> > > to follow. For example, in Crete they eat lots of snails during Lent.

Isn't escargot a delicacy? <g>

> > > Also, the monks don't eat meat at all, but in _Wounded by Love_ Elder

> > > Porphyrios talks about getting sent by his eldersto collect snails

> > > when he was a young monk on Mt. Athos.

>

> > I assume you mean monks don't include meat as a part of their diet

> > even during non-fasting days.

>

> I'm not sure what else I could have meant. If they don't eat meat on

> fasting days and non-fasting days, isn't that the same thing as saying

> they don't eat meat at all?

Sorry. I misread what you said.

> > > Anyway, shellfish are basically super-animal foods, so nutrient-wise,

> > > eating them on the weekends is like eating meat every day. If you ate

> > > shellfish every day during Lent, your Lenten menu would probably be

> > > your most nutrient-dense menu of the year.

>

> > There was a long discussion on an Orthodox list that I am a part of as

> > to why the Church does not consider shellfish to be animal foods.

> > There was also quite a bit of discussion as to how the various foods

> > abstained from during the fast affect one physically and spiritually.

> > All very interesting (especially the affect of foods on one

> > spiritually) but unfortunately I didn't follow it very closely.

>

> I'm not sure it is that they aren't considered animal foods, but just

> that they aren't considered meat or fish. I guess it's like wondering

> why fish isn't considered meat. I don't think the Church is really

> using taxanomical categories the way we would. In other words " animal

> foods " isn't really a category it uses.

I seem to recall something about them being " bloodless " as the great

distinction from animals, but again I didn't follow the thread

closely.

> > Personally it has never been much of an issue with me since I don't

> > really enjoy shellfish without having a side of melted butter nearby.

> > It is not that I don't like them without the butter but they just

> > agree with me better when dipped in animal fat.

>

> I find eating some clams and oysters on the weekend gives me the

> perfect balance nutritionally to make it through the rest of the week.

> Everyone's a little different. I think the larger point that you

> were making is that the point is not to cripple anyone so you follow

> it in a way that isn't crippling.

Right. I follow the " mind your own plate " principal and let each

person work out their own way of keeping the fasts before God.

Well it is good to know you are able to keep the fasts these days.

--

" A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents

and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents

eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with

it. " Max Planck

[Guest guest]

,

> Well it is good to know you are able to keep the fasts these days.

Yeah, quite awesome, in fact.

Chris