Re: POLITICS: Greedy Zionists Bankers--Thank you Sharon

[Guest guest]

Our country is doomed because of the amazing level of ignorance

(encouraged by the system) that so many people have.

This post is a great example. Thank you for posting your nonsense so

explicitly.

> Thank you for posting this Sharon; I an anxious to read more about

> this woman's experiences. I hope we all learn from them before it's

> too late. Our country is doomed if we elect a non-citizen who is a

> communist and a muslim. What are we thinking?

>

> > >

> > > In Germany, when Hitler came to power, it was a time of terrible

> > > financial depression. Money was worth nothing. In Germany people

> lost

> > > homes and jobs, just like in the American Depression in the 1930s,

> > > which we have read about in Thoene's Shiloh books.

> > >

> > > In those days, in my homeland, Adolph Hitler was elected to power

> by

> > > promising " Change. " He blamed the " Zionists " around the world for

> all

> > > our problems. He told everyone it was greedy Zionist Bankers who

> had

> > > caused every problem we had. He promised when he was leader, the

> > > greedy Zionist bankers would be punished. The Zionists, he

> promised,

> > > would be wiped off the face of the earth. So Hitler was elected to

> > > power by only 1/3 the popular vote. A coalition of other political

> > > parties in parliament made him supreme leader.

> > >

> > > Then, when he was leader, he disgraced and expelled everyone in

> > > parliament who did not go along with him. Yes. Change came to my

> > > homeland as the new leader promised it would. The teachers in

> German

> > > schools began to teach the children to sing songs in praise of

> Hitler.

> > > This was the beginning of the Hitler Youth movement.

> > >

> > > It began with praise of the Fuhrer's programs on the lips of

> innocent

> > > children. Hymns in praise of Hitler and his programs were being

> sung

> > > in the schoolrooms and in the playyard. Little girls and boys

> joined

> > > hands and sang these songs as they walked home from school. My

> brother

> > > came home and told Papa what was happening at school. The

> political

> > > hymns of children proclaimed Change was coming to our homeland

> and the

> > > Fuhrer was a leader we could trust.

> > >

> > > I will never forget my father's face. Grief and fear. He knew

> that the

> > > best propaganda of the Nazis was song on the lips of little

> children.

> > > That evening before he said grace at the dinner table, he placed

> his

> > > hands upon the heads of my brothers and me and prayed the Living

> Word

> > > upon us from 1:4-5.

> > >

> > > 'Now the Word of the Lord came to me, saying,

> > > " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

> > > and before you were born I consecrated you;

> > > I appointed you a prophet to The nations. "

> > >

> > > Soon the children's songs praising the Fuhrer were heard

> everywhere on

> > > the streets and over the radio. " With our Fuhrer to lead us, we

> can do

> > > it! We can change the world! "

> > >

> > > Soon after that Papa, a pastor, was turned away from visiting

> elderly

> > > parishioners in hospitals. The people he had come to bring

> comfort of

> > > God's Word, were " no longer there. " Where had they vanished to

> while

> > > under nationalized health care? It became an open secret. The

> elderly

> > > and sick began to disappear from hospitals feet first as " mercy

> > > killing " became the policy. Children with disabilities and those

> who

> > > had Down syndrome were euthanized.

> > >

> > > People whispered, " Maybe it is better for them now. Put them out

> of

> > > misery. They are no longer suffering.And, of course, their death

> is

> > > better for the treasury of our nation. Our taxes no longer must be

> > > spent to care for such a burden. " And so murder was called mercy.

> > >

> > > The government took over private business. Industry and health

> care

> > > were " nationalized. " (NA-ZI means National Socialist Party) The

> > > businesses of all Jews were seized. (Perhaps you remember our

> story in

> > > Berlin on Kristalnacht in the book Munich Signature)

> > >

> > > The world and God's word were turned upside down. Hitler promised

> the

> > > people economic Change? Not change. It was, rather, Lucifer's very

> > > ancient Delusion leading to Destruction. What began with the

> > > propaganda of children singing a catchy tune ended in the deaths

> of

> > > millions of children.

> > >

> > > The reality of what came upon us is so horrible that you in this

> > > present generation cannot imagine it. Our suffering is too great

> to

> > > ever tell in a book or show in a black and white newsreel.

> > >

> > > When I spoke to Bodie about some of these things, she wept and

> said

> > > she could not bear to write them. Perhaps one day she will, but I

> > > asked her, " who could bear to read our suffering? " Yet with my

> last

> > > breaths I warn every Christian and Jew now in the name of the

> Lord,

> > > Unless your course of the church in America is spiritually changed

> > > now, returning to the Lord, there are new horrors yet to come.

> > >

> > > I trembled last night when I heard the voices of American children

> > > raised in song, praising the name of Obama, the charismatic

> fellow who

> > > claims he is the American Messiah. Yet I have heard what this man

> > > Obama says about abortion and the " mercy killing " of tiny babies

> who

> > > are not wanted.

> > >

> > > There are so few of us left to warn you. I have heard that there

> are

> > > 69 million Catholics in America and 70 million Evangelical

> Christians.

> > > Where are your voices? Where is your outrage? Where is passion and

> > > your vote? Do you vote based on an abortionist's empty promises

> and

> > > economics? Or do you vote according to the Bible? Thus says the

> Lord

> > > about every living child still in the womb.

> > >

> > > " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

> > > and before you were born I consecrated you. "

> > >

> > > I have experienced the signs of the politics of Death in my

> youth. I

> > > see them again now. Christians! Unless you stand up now, you will

> lose

> > > your freedom of religion. In America priests and preachers have

> > > already lost their freedom to speak openly from their pulpits of

> moral

> > > danger in political candidates. They cannot legally instruct you

> of

> > > which candidate holds fast to the precepts of scripture! American

> law

> > > forbids this freedom of speech to conservative pastors or they

> will

> > > lose their " tax exempt " status.

> > >

> > > And yet I have heard the words of Obama's pastor Damning America!

> I

> > > have heard the words of Obama damning and mocking all of you in

> small

> > > towns because you " Cling to your religion. " But I am a woman whose

> > > name is unknown. My life is recorded as a work of fiction. I have

> no

> > > fear of reprisal when I speak truth to you from the pages of a

> book.

> > >

> > > I have no fear for myself, bur children, I tremble. I tremble at

> the

> > > hymns to a political leaders which your children will sing at

> school..

> > > (Though even now a hymn or a prayer to God and our Lord Jesus is

> > > against the law in public school!) t for all of you and for you

> > >

> > > Your vote must put a stop to what will come upon America if Barack

> > > Obama is elected. I pray you will personally heed this warning

> for the

> > > sake of your children and your grandchildren. Do not be deceived.

> The

> > > Lord in 1:7-8 commands every believer to speak up!

> > >

> > > " Do not say, 'I am only a youth,' for to all whom I send you, you

> > > shall go, and whatever I command you, you shall speak. Do not be

> > > afraid of them for I am with you, declares the Lord! "

> > >

> > > --

> > > Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely

> according

> > > to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> > > Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and

> you

> > > will have plenty to eat.

> > > Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

What concrete evidence do you have that he is a communist? Because McCain and

his

campaign said so? This is an interpretation by McCain's campaign and the right

wing

pundits who will say anything to make Obama look bad!

As for your statement about him being a muslim, even if he has some muslim blood

in

him, so what? The majority of Muslims are as decent as anyone else. I am Jewish

and lived

most of my life in Israel and befriended quite a few Muslims who were peaceful,

friendly

human beings, more so than some white Americans I have encountered. Muslims are

all

getting a bad wrap because of a relatively small group of extreme Muslim

radicals like Bin

Laden. Judging someone based solely on race is... well... racism. Please let us

try to look

passed the color and race and see the person.

>

>

> Our country is doomed because of the amazing level of ignorance

> (encouraged by the system) that so many people have.

>

> This post is a great example. Thank you for posting your nonsense so

> explicitly.

>

> > Thank you for posting this Sharon; I an anxious to read more about

> > this woman's experiences. I hope we all learn from them before it's

> > too late. Our country is doomed if we elect a non-citizen who is a

> > communist and a muslim. What are we thinking?

> >

> > > >

> > > > In Germany, when Hitler came to power, it was a time of terrible

> > > > financial depression. Money was worth nothing. In Germany people

> > lost

> > > > homes and jobs, just like in the American Depression in the 1930s,

> > > > which we have read about in Thoene's Shiloh books.

> > > >

> > > > In those days, in my homeland, Adolph Hitler was elected to power

> > by

> > > > promising " Change. " He blamed the " Zionists " around the world for

> > all

> > > > our problems. He told everyone it was greedy Zionist Bankers who

> > had

> > > > caused every problem we had. He promised when he was leader, the

> > > > greedy Zionist bankers would be punished. The Zionists, he

> > promised,

> > > > would be wiped off the face of the earth. So Hitler was elected to

> > > > power by only 1/3 the popular vote. A coalition of other political

> > > > parties in parliament made him supreme leader.

> > > >

> > > > Then, when he was leader, he disgraced and expelled everyone in

> > > > parliament who did not go along with him. Yes. Change came to my

> > > > homeland as the new leader promised it would. The teachers in

> > German

> > > > schools began to teach the children to sing songs in praise of

> > Hitler.

> > > > This was the beginning of the Hitler Youth movement.

> > > >

> > > > It began with praise of the Fuhrer's programs on the lips of

> > innocent

> > > > children. Hymns in praise of Hitler and his programs were being

> > sung

> > > > in the schoolrooms and in the playyard. Little girls and boys

> > joined

> > > > hands and sang these songs as they walked home from school. My

> > brother

> > > > came home and told Papa what was happening at school. The

> > political

> > > > hymns of children proclaimed Change was coming to our homeland

> > and the

> > > > Fuhrer was a leader we could trust.

> > > >

> > > > I will never forget my father's face. Grief and fear. He knew

> > that the

> > > > best propaganda of the Nazis was song on the lips of little

> > children.

> > > > That evening before he said grace at the dinner table, he placed

> > his

> > > > hands upon the heads of my brothers and me and prayed the Living

> > Word

> > > > upon us from 1:4-5.

> > > >

> > > > 'Now the Word of the Lord came to me, saying,

> > > > " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

> > > > and before you were born I consecrated you;

> > > > I appointed you a prophet to The nations. "

> > > >

> > > > Soon the children's songs praising the Fuhrer were heard

> > everywhere on

> > > > the streets and over the radio. " With our Fuhrer to lead us, we

> > can do

> > > > it! We can change the world! "

> > > >

> > > > Soon after that Papa, a pastor, was turned away from visiting

> > elderly

> > > > parishioners in hospitals. The people he had come to bring

> > comfort of

> > > > God's Word, were " no longer there. " Where had they vanished to

> > while

> > > > under nationalized health care? It became an open secret. The

> > elderly

> > > > and sick began to disappear from hospitals feet first as " mercy

> > > > killing " became the policy. Children with disabilities and those

> > who

> > > > had Down syndrome were euthanized.

> > > >

> > > > People whispered, " Maybe it is better for them now. Put them out

> > of

> > > > misery. They are no longer suffering.And, of course, their death

> > is

> > > > better for the treasury of our nation. Our taxes no longer must be

> > > > spent to care for such a burden. " And so murder was called mercy.

> > > >

> > > > The government took over private business. Industry and health

> > care

> > > > were " nationalized. " (NA-ZI means National Socialist Party) The

> > > > businesses of all Jews were seized. (Perhaps you remember our

> > story in

> > > > Berlin on Kristalnacht in the book Munich Signature)

> > > >

> > > > The world and God's word were turned upside down. Hitler promised

> > the

> > > > people economic Change? Not change. It was, rather, Lucifer's very

> > > > ancient Delusion leading to Destruction. What began with the

> > > > propaganda of children singing a catchy tune ended in the deaths

> > of

> > > > millions of children.

> > > >

> > > > The reality of what came upon us is so horrible that you in this

> > > > present generation cannot imagine it. Our suffering is too great

> > to

> > > > ever tell in a book or show in a black and white newsreel.

> > > >

> > > > When I spoke to Bodie about some of these things, she wept and

> > said

> > > > she could not bear to write them. Perhaps one day she will, but I

> > > > asked her, " who could bear to read our suffering? " Yet with my

> > last

> > > > breaths I warn every Christian and Jew now in the name of the

> > Lord,

> > > > Unless your course of the church in America is spiritually changed

> > > > now, returning to the Lord, there are new horrors yet to come.

> > > >

> > > > I trembled last night when I heard the voices of American children

> > > > raised in song, praising the name of Obama, the charismatic

> > fellow who

> > > > claims he is the American Messiah. Yet I have heard what this man

> > > > Obama says about abortion and the " mercy killing " of tiny babies

> > who

> > > > are not wanted.

> > > >

> > > > There are so few of us left to warn you. I have heard that there

> > are

> > > > 69 million Catholics in America and 70 million Evangelical

> > Christians.

> > > > Where are your voices? Where is your outrage? Where is passion and

> > > > your vote? Do you vote based on an abortionist's empty promises

> > and

> > > > economics? Or do you vote according to the Bible? Thus says the

> > Lord

> > > > about every living child still in the womb.

> > > >

> > > > " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

> > > > and before you were born I consecrated you. "

> > > >

> > > > I have experienced the signs of the politics of Death in my

> > youth. I

> > > > see them again now. Christians! Unless you stand up now, you will

> > lose

> > > > your freedom of religion. In America priests and preachers have

> > > > already lost their freedom to speak openly from their pulpits of

> > moral

> > > > danger in political candidates. They cannot legally instruct you

> > of

> > > > which candidate holds fast to the precepts of scripture! American

> > law

> > > > forbids this freedom of speech to conservative pastors or they

> > will

> > > > lose their " tax exempt " status.

> > > >

> > > > And yet I have heard the words of Obama's pastor Damning America!

> > I

> > > > have heard the words of Obama damning and mocking all of you in

> > small

> > > > towns because you " Cling to your religion. " But I am a woman whose

> > > > name is unknown. My life is recorded as a work of fiction. I have

> > no

> > > > fear of reprisal when I speak truth to you from the pages of a

> > book.

> > > >

> > > > I have no fear for myself, bur children, I tremble. I tremble at

> > the

> > > > hymns to a political leaders which your children will sing at

> > school..

> > > > (Though even now a hymn or a prayer to God and our Lord Jesus is

> > > > against the law in public school!) t for all of you and for you

> > > >

> > > > Your vote must put a stop to what will come upon America if Barack

> > > > Obama is elected. I pray you will personally heed this warning

> > for the

> > > > sake of your children and your grandchildren. Do not be deceived.

> > The

> > > > Lord in 1:7-8 commands every believer to speak up!

> > > >

> > > > " Do not say, 'I am only a youth,' for to all whom I send you, you

> > > > shall go, and whatever I command you, you shall speak. Do not be

> > > > afraid of them for I am with you, declares the Lord! "

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely

> > according

> > > > to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> > > > Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and

> > you

> > > > will have plenty to eat.

> > > > Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

On 11/2/08, Riki <therikster@...> wrote:

> What concrete evidence do you have that he is a communist? Because McCain

> and his

> campaign said so? This is an interpretation by McCain's campaign and the

> right wing

> pundits who will say anything to make Obama look bad!

I don't think there is any evidence that he is a " communist, " although

his father, who he says had very little to do with his life (he claims

to have only met him for a month) was in fact a communist who

advocated a 100% tax rate. There is evidence that he advocates

" major " redistribution of wealth, namely that he has said so publicly

in the past. Obama's tax plan as adovcated in this campaign, however,

is less redistributive than McCain's.

> As for your statement about him being a muslim, even if he has some muslim

> blood in

> him, so what? The majority of Muslims are as decent as anyone else. I am

> Jewish and lived

> most of my life in Israel and befriended quite a few Muslims who were

> peaceful, friendly

> human beings, more so than some white Americans I have encountered. Muslims

> are all

> getting a bad wrap because of a relatively small group of extreme Muslim

> radicals like Bin

> Laden. Judging someone based solely on race is... well... racism. Please let

> us try to look

> passed the color and race and see the person.

The evidence that he is Muslim is poor. He attended a school in

Indonesia that would have required him to be Muslim and to be a

citizen of Indonesia, which in turn would have required that he not be

a citizen of the US. However, that in no way is conclusive evidence

that he was ever a believing Muslim or that he ever revoked his US

citizenship vis-a-vis the US government. The evidence that he was

born in Hawaii is questionable, but better than the evidence that he

was born in Kenya, so he is probably a US citizen.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Nov 2, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Masterjohn wrote:

> On 11/2/08, Riki <therikster@...> wrote:

> > What concrete evidence do you have that he is a communist? Because

> McCain

> > and his

> > campaign said so? This is an interpretation by McCain's campaign

> and the

> > right wing

> > pundits who will say anything to make Obama look bad!

>

> I don't think there is any evidence that he is a " communist, " although

> his father, who he says had very little to do with his life (he claims

> to have only met him for a month) was in fact a communist who

> advocated a 100% tax rate.

>

Well, there's evidence for ya!

> There is evidence that he advocates

> " major " redistribution of wealth, namely that he has said so publicly

> in the past. Obama's tax plan as adovcated in this campaign, however,

> is less redistributive than McCain's.

>

Please - where does he advocate a " major " redistribution of wealth,

and what constitutes " major " ? Is that your characterization?

Personally I wish that he did, but I don't see any of that at all, but

I continue to see you winking at all of this totally unsupported Obama

dirt. I can't even believe that I'm defending the guy - I don't like

him.

>

>

> > As for your statement about him being a muslim, even if he has

> some muslim

> > blood in

> > him, so what?

>

> >The majority of Muslims are as decent as anyone else. I am

> > Jewish and lived

> > most of my life in Israel and befriended quite a few Muslims who

> were

> > peaceful, friendly

> > human beings, more so than some white Americans I have

> encountered. Muslims

> > are all

> > getting a bad wrap because of a relatively small group of extreme

> Muslim

> > radicals like Bin

> > Laden. Judging someone based solely on race is... well... racism.

> Please let

> > us try to look

> > passed the color and race and see the person.

>

> The evidence that he is Muslim is poor. He attended a school in

> Indonesia that would have required him to be Muslim and to be a

> citizen of Indonesia, which in turn would have required that he not be

> a citizen of the US. However, that in no way is conclusive evidence

> that he was ever a believing Muslim or that he ever revoked his US

> citizenship vis-a-vis the US government. The evidence that he was

> born in Hawaii is questionable, but better than the evidence that he

> was born in Kenya, so he is probably a US citizen.

>

That is not " poor " evidence. That is not evidence at all.

>

>

> Chris

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

> Our country is doomed if we elect a non-citizen who is a

> communist and a muslim. What are we thinking?

I suppose it's an interesting theoretical question -- what would

happen if we elected a Muslim communist non-citizen? Except of course

it couldn't happen. Americans are too anti-Muslim to elect one.

Americans are too anti-communist to elect one. And it's not

constitutionally possible for a non-citizen to be President.

I'd think it goes without saying that all these are entirely

theoretical points, as Obama is a Christian right-of-center Democrat

and a citizen born in Hawaii, except as you've demonstrated so

clearly, there's a substantial contingent of citizens who are willing

to believe even the most ridiculous nonsense spewed by the right-wing

propaganda machine.

-

[Guest guest]

I tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that was dumbest post all day.

Mike

>

> Thank you for posting this Sharon; I an anxious to read more about

> this woman's experiences. I hope we all learn from them before it's

> too late. Our country is doomed if we elect a non-citizen who is a

> communist and a muslim. What are we thinking?

>

>

> > >

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

wrote:

>

>

> The evidence that he is Muslim is poor.

Interesting interview done by the African Press International...

Shocking development: Mrs Obama decides enough is enough: " My husband was

born in Hawaii and adopted by his step father, does that make him

unpatriotic; she asks " , on a direct telephone to API.

http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/shocking-development-mrs-obama-deci\

des-enough-is-enough-my-husband-was-born-in-hawaii-and-adopted-by-his-step-fathe\

r-does-that-make-him-unpatriotic-she-asks-on-a-direct-telephone-to-api/

Posted by africanpress on October 15, 2008

*On Farakhan and his ministry, Mrs Obama told API that it was unfortunate

that Mr Farakhan came out the way he did supporting her husband openly

before the elections was over. That was not wholehearted support but one

that was calculated to convince the American people that my husband will

support the growth of muslim faith if he became the president, adding " even

if my husband was able to prove that he is not a Muslim, he will not be

believed by those who have come out strongly to destroy his chances of being

the next President. Do real people expect someone to deny a religion when 80

percent of his relatives are Muslims?; Mrs Obama asked.*

———————–

Published by African Press International - API

> ________________________________

> From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods

> Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format

to Traditional

> Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

> Recent Activity

>

> 16

> New Members

>

> Visit Your Group

> Health

>

> Early Detection

>

> Know the symptoms

>

> of breast cancer.

>

> Meditation and

>

> Lovingkindness

>

> A Group

>

> to share and learn.

>

> Health Groups

>

> for people over 40

>

> Join people who are

>

> staying in shape.

>

> .

>

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

>

> -

>

> > Our country is doomed if we elect a non-citizen who is a

> > communist an\d a muslim. What are we thinking?

>

> I suppose it's an interesting theoretical question -- what would

> happen if we elected a Muslim communist non-citizen? Except of course

> it couldn't happen. Americans are too anti-Muslim to elect one.

See, , it's just that kind of negative, elitist thinking that the

American Gov't uses to deny us our right to raw milk. Maybe some

Americans are just against electing someone who isn't forthright and

truthful about what he is.

Sharon

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

> See, , it's just that kind of negative, elitist thinking that the

> American Gov't uses to deny us our right to raw milk. Maybe some

> Americans are just against electing someone who isn't forthright and

> truthful about what he is.

> Sharon

>

Government in moderation has a protective function. Would you really

like to see the regulations against some of the nastier chemicals and

pesticides and herbicides removed? You can't have it both ways. And

how is Obama being untruthful about his background?

Mike

[Guest guest]

So, what is it that you're actually saying? That he IS a Muslim, and

that people are pissed because he's not honest about it? And what for

bleeping god's sake does this have to do with raw milk?

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> >

> > -

> >

> > > Our country is doomed if we elect a non-citizen who is a

> > > communist an\d a muslim. What are we thinking?

> >

> > I suppose it's an interesting theoretical question -- what would

> > happen if we elected a Muslim communist non-citizen? Except of

> course

> > it couldn't happen. Americans are too anti-Muslim to elect one.

>

> See, , it's just that kind of negative, elitist thinking that the

> American Gov't uses to deny us our right to raw milk. Maybe some

> Americans are just against electing someone who isn't forthright and

> truthful about what he is.

> Sharon

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

> to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

> will have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

[Guest guest]

HAHAHAHAHA! Whatever.

When people won't agree and argument is futile, my father always

said, " Time will tell. " Indeed, time will tell.

--- In , " michael g " <tropical@...>

wrote:

>

> I tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that was dumbest post all

day.

>

> Mike

[Guest guest]

Well, time will tell when there really is uncertainty about something.

However, time won't tell, for instance, whether McCain is

'really' a Venusian.

If you want to post the most ignorant, vile crap that you can dig up,

and believe the most unreliable sources you can find - that's great.

But this is not something that will be decided in time. It is only

you, who (one hopes) will at some point realize how ridiculous your

post really was.

> HAHAHAHAHA! Whatever.

>

> When people won't agree and argument is futile, my father always

> said, " Time will tell. " Indeed, time will tell.

>

>

> >

> > I tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that was dumbest post all

> day.

> >

> > Mike

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon-

> See, , it's just that kind of negative, elitist thinking that the

> American Gov't uses to deny us our right to raw milk. Maybe some

> Americans are just against electing someone who isn't forthright and

> truthful about what he is.

Do you seriously believe Americans would elect a Muslim in the current

climate or anything resembling it, i.e. any time in the near future?

Even the completely unsubstantiated and ridiculous RUMOR that Obama is

a Muslim has been enough to depress his support and endanger his

chances of election! And I don't believe for a second that Obama is

actually a Muslim or is being in any way untruthful in saying he's not.

Beyond that, though, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by

connecting my belief that there's too much dislike and distrust of

Islam in the US at present to elect a Muslim to the legal status of

raw milk.

-

[Guest guest]

On 11/2/08, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> And I don't believe for a second that Obama is

> actually a Muslim or is being in any way untruthful in saying he's not.

I don't understand how anyone can consider this plausible. What was

the point of him attending 's church all these years? Just to

feign being a Christian so he could improve his election chances???

LOL!

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

>

>

> Do you seriously believe Americans would elect a Muslim in the current

> climate or anything resembling it, i.e. any time in the near future?

>

> -

,

Yes. I seriously do believe Americans would elect a Muslim - someone

like Ellison, Minnesota, is a good example, the first Muslim

sworn in (using the Koran - rumor-mill had Obama as the one using a

Koran) to serve in Congress.

Sharon

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

Sharon-

> Yes. I seriously do believe Americans would elect a Muslim - someone

> like Ellison, Minnesota, is a good example, the first Muslim

> sworn in (using the Koran - rumor-mill had Obama as the one using a

> Koran) to serve in Congress.

Ellison represents Minnesota's 5th congressional district, which

has a PVI of D+21! (The PVI is a measure of a district's partisan

lean, and in this case it means that Ellison's district is

*overwhelmingly* Democratic.) That in no way resembles the country as

a whole, which is much closer to being evenly split, so I don't see

how you can possibly consider Ellison as proof that America would

elect a Muslim president.

-

[Guest guest]

Gene,

> Please - where does he advocate a " major " redistribution of wealth,

> and what constitutes " major " ? Is that your characterization?

Well it is a radio interview, so it is characterized only vaguely in

concept rather than in detail, but this is what he said in 2001:

http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/#50041ecb,2008-10-27

" but the supreme court never ventured into the issues of

redistribution of wealth and sort of basic issues of political and

economic justice in this society and to that extent as radical as

people try to characterize the warren court it wasnt that radical . .

.. one of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that 41:01 the

civil rights movement became so court focused i think there was a

tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities

41:12 on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of

power through which you bring about redistributive change 41:20 and in

some ways we still suffer from that . . . you know maybe i am showing

my bias here as a legislator as well as a law professor but you know i

am not optimistic about brining about major redistributive change

through the courts. "

He talks more about institutional redistribution and not about handing

out checks, but he calls it redistribution and he refers to " major

redistributive change " favorably.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> Ellison represents Minnesota's 5th congressional district, which

> has a PVI of D+21! (The PVI is a measure of a district's partisan

> lean, and in this case it means that Ellison's district is

> *overwhelmingly* Democratic.) That in no way resembles the country as

> a whole, which is much closer to being evenly split, so I don't see

> how you can possibly consider Ellison as proof that America would

> elect a Muslim president.

>

> -

>

" Change " has to begin somewhere, doesn't it? Colleges in Minnesota

and University of Mich have installed footbaths for Muslims (but, of

course, crosses or any type of reference to Christian holidays or

displays is strictly forbidden), and over all, the U.S. is down to 38%

who are now professing traditional Christianity.....so hang in

there....change is absolutely coming....

Sharon

Sharon

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> He talks more about institutional redistribution and not about handing

> out checks, but he calls it redistribution and he refers to " major

> redistributive change " favorably.

As usual, context matters a great deal. Here's a compelling argument

that as usual, Obama's comments in that interview are being grossly

misrepresented by the right-wing press and the McCain campaign and its

surrogates.

" He's Not Robin Hood; What Obama really meant by 'redistributive

change.' " http://www.slate.com/id/2203237/

Here are a few highlights.

>> In that interview, Obama was talking in law professor-speak, and in

>> a couple of places in his discursive remarks he refers to

>> " redistributive change. " When he used the term, he was speaking

>> against the backdrop of an old debate in the legal academy, which

>> was not about who should pay higher taxes. So, what's the real

>> context for Obama's remarks? It is both storied and, in the end, ho-

>> hum.

>>

>> In 1964, law professor Reich wrote a hugely influential

>> article called " The New Property. " Reich's idea was that some

>> benefits, once conferred by the government, couldn't be taken away

>> without some sort of legal process. Reich's " benefits " weren't

>> necessarily for the poor. " When he was a law clerk to Justice

>> Black, Charlie was struck by the injustice that a doctor, licensed

>> to practice law in New York, could lose his right to practice—in

>> this instance because of allegations he'd fought against Franco—

>> without any procedural protection, " says Yale law professor Judith

>> Resnik, who taught the civil procedure class I read Reich's article

>> for in law school. Reich's idea was that a government license could

>> be a form of property, in the sense that, once granted, it

>> shouldn't be taken away without a fair hearing.

>> What comes through far more clearly in the interview is a tactical

>> point: Obama thinks it's a mistake to rely too much on courts to

>> further any broad agenda. He says, " I think one of the tragedies of

>> the civil rights movement was that the civil rights movement became

>> so court-focused. I think there was a tendency to lose track of the

>> political and organizing activities on the ground that are able to

>> bring about the coalitions of power through which you bring about

>> redistributive change, and in some ways we still suffer from that. "

>> And then he continues, " Maybe I am showing my bias here as a

>> legislator as well as a law professor, but you know … the

>> institution just isn't structured that way. "

>>

>> This is a whole separate, bitter, ongoing fight in legal circles—

>> over when to turn to courts as a means of change and when to turn

>> to the legislature, which is directly accountable to the voters and

>> so perhaps the safer and more stable route. It's a truism that

>> conservatives favor legislative change and see the courts as an

>> undemocratic end run around it. They especially think that about

>> any push for " redistributive change, " Obama's subject here. In this

>> interview, Obama comes down on the traditionally conservative side,

>> albeit for presumably different reasons. He thinks the civil rights

>> movement misjudged the courts' utility—they were good for providing

>> for a right to vote and for black people to sit with white people

>> at a lunch counter, to use Obama's examples, but they're not good

>> for deciding who's entitled to what government benefits or property

>> rights. " Obama is with Bork on this, " Cass Sunstein, an Obama

>> adviser, told me, referring, of course, to the arch-conservative,

>> famously not-confirmed-to-the-Supreme Court Judge Bork.

-

[Guest guest]

Sharon-

> " Change " has to begin somewhere, doesn't it? Colleges in Minnesota

> and University of Mich have installed footbaths for Muslims (but, of

> course, crosses or any type of reference to Christian holidays or

> displays is strictly forbidden), and over all, the U.S. is down to 38%

> who are now professing traditional Christianity.....so hang in

> there....change is absolutely coming....

I'm not saying it's not theoretically possible there's no possibility

that a time might come in the future in which the US might elect a

Muslim president. I'm saying that that time is not now or at any

point in the near future. And I'm saying that if Obama WERE a Muslim,

which he quite obviously is not, he'd have had absolutely no chance

whatsoever of winning -- or even getting the Democratic nomination.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

> I don't understand how anyone can consider this plausible. What was

> the point of him attending 's church all these years? Just to

> feign being a Christian so he could improve his election chances???

> LOL!

Well, you know, he's actually a sleeper terrorist, so it was all part

of his cover. Though I have to say, as a cover, 's church

wasn't exactly the best possible choice!

-

[Guest guest]

Actually, members of Congress are sworn in en masse, without the use of

any books. For the photo-op reinactment of his swearing in, Rep. Ellison

did use a copy of the Koran that had belonged to Jefferson. And I

applaud him taking that oath seriously enough to care that the book

under his hand was one that he values.

The religious affiliations of our elected officials should not be our

concern. The freedom to worship according to our individual beliefs is a

cornerstone of this country, and was a very important issue to our

Founding Fathers, who themselves were not all of the same religious

persuasion, and many of whom had come from a background of persecution

on the basis of one's religious beliefs.

What frightens me most of all are candidates and elected officials who

do not recognize the separation of church and state, and who seek to

impose their own religious beliefs on citizens in the form of legislation.

We are an inclusive nation, and must constantly defend that inclusiveness.

Here's a great quote I just found from Jefferson: " The rights of

conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable

for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such

acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my

neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my

pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only

effectual agents against error. "

[http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html]

ee Meade

Burke, VA

Sharon son wrote:

>

>

> Yes. I seriously do believe Americans would elect a Muslim - someone

> like Ellison, Minnesota, is a good example, the first Muslim

> sworn in (using the Koran - rumor-mill had Obama as the one using a

> Koran) to serve in Congress.

> Sharon

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Footbaths have been installed in some college restrooms, but they are

not designated for the exclusive use of Muslim students, nor stylized in

any religious way. It has been viewed as a safety issue, more than a

religious accommodation.

On the other hand, the same colleges do not hold classes on Sunday, and

schedule holidays around the Christian calendar (Christmas and Easter).

I don't think there are any restrictions on students expressing their

religious beliefs, but the institutions themselves seem to be striving

to remain neutral.

I don't know where you get your statistics, Sharon, but according to the

US census (which doesn't count people of my religious persuasion, BTW)

pegs the portion of the population claiming some form of Christianity at

around 80%.

ee Meade

Burke, VA

Sharon son wrote:

>

> " Change " has to begin somewhere, doesn't it? Colleges in Minnesota

> and University of Mich have installed footbaths for Muslims (but, of

> course, crosses or any type of reference to Christian holidays or

> displays is strictly forbidden), and over all, the U.S. is down to 38%

> who are now professing traditional Christianity.....so hang in

> there....change is absolutely coming....

> Sharon

>

> .

>

>

[Guest guest]

ee-

> I don't know where you get your statistics, Sharon, but according to

> the

> US census (which doesn't count people of my religious persuasion, BTW)

> pegs the portion of the population claiming some form of

> Christianity at

> around 80%.

I believe Sharon's referring to the fact that many born-again

Christians don't believe that mainstream Christians are actually real

Christians at all.

-

[Guest guest]

So, my guess is that in the context of the rest of his career, he uses

'major' for self-aggrandizement - in other words, if something is

good, you want credit for advocating it in a major way. Kind of like

he takes credit for being against the war in Iraq. His politics have

always been quite moderate, and I don't see anything to suggest that

he is for a major redistribution of wealth. But I'm sure that you dug

this up on some right wing site - well, of course you did. Fox News.

> Gene,

>

> > Please - where does he advocate a " major " redistribution of wealth,

> > and what constitutes " major " ? Is that your characterization?

>

> Well it is a radio interview, so it is characterized only vaguely in

> concept rather than in detail, but this is what he said in 2001:

>

> http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/#50041ecb,2008-10-27

>

> " but the supreme court never ventured into the issues of

> redistribution of wealth and sort of basic issues of political and

> economic justice in this society and to that extent as radical as

> people try to characterize the warren court it wasnt that radical . .

> . one of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that 41:01 the

> civil rights movement became so court focused i think there was a

> tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities

> 41:12 on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of

> power through which you bring about redistributive change 41:20 and in

> some ways we still suffer from that . . . you know maybe i am showing

> my bias here as a legislator as well as a law professor but you know i

> am not optimistic about brining about major redistributive change

> through the courts. "

>

> He talks more about institutional redistribution and not about handing

> out checks, but he calls it redistribution and he refers to " major

> redistributive change " favorably.

>

> Chris

>

>